Use the self-checkout machine.......OR ELSE !!!!

[marmar]

I went to CVS this afternoon to buy a Dairy Milk bar and stood in the line with the human cashier to pay for it. He look up, smiled and pointed at the bank of self-checkout machines, where most of the store's employees seemed to be, showing people how to use them.
I know it's not his fault - I'm sure it's some corporate directive to get people to use these machines they've spent so much money on - but today marks my last visit to a CVS.

[AsahinaKimi]

1. maybe should have

Asked him what he gets paid for? To point to the machine?

[monmouth]

4. You read my mind..lol. They aren't going to need him much longer

once people get the hang of this.

[MadMaddie]

6. Once the customer count goes up on the self checkout

then CVS will fire employees.

The catch is when power goes out who will make their business run. They forget and they will get what they deserve.

[Toucano]

13. Excuse me, but if the power goes out, the staffed cash registers don't work either.

Or do those run on some sort of invisible energy ray emitted by the surly clerks who attend them?

[blondeatlast]

17. I worked at Barnes and Noble during the three day blackout here in Phoenix

during the mid-90s.

We actually did function although business of course slowed.

We recorded ISBN numbers, filled out sales slips by hand, and most of us could count change. We did fine--when the power came back on, we entered the ISBNs by hand. a lot of customers came to the store just to have something to do.

And--B&N may be a good employer, but they pay just barely above standard retail wages.

[Toucano]

35. Books have prices marked, so that's certainly possible.

General merchandise in a CVS has not price tag, however.

I'm not sure they can stay open without electricity. Maybe generators?

[boppers]

56. I'm guessing you're under 40?

Back in the old days, shop clerks memorized prices on everything in the store... that way, nobody could pull a switch on price tags. Now, with the auto checkout systems, they use weight *and* barcode to determine the correct product price (which is why they make a big deal about bagging your goods on the table, so they know you haven't switched barcodes on products).

[Toucano]

66. No I'm not under 40. But I am under 200.

Prior to the implementation of barcode scanners, I worked in retail.

We did NOT "memorize the prices" on everything in the store.

Prices were marked with price tags (which are stickers applied with a price "gun") on every item in the store - every individual item in the store. The cashier picked up the item, looked at the tag, and entered the price into the cash register.

We memorized prices of SOME merchandise (gum, candy bars, milk, six packs, etc.), because they didn't change frequently.

Without electricity, we could have written down the price on each item and a description of the item, summed up the total manually and calculated the tax due.

These "old days" you refer to must be the days of "Ye Olde Shoppe" because prices are now only marked on the shelf tag.

Have you never noticed that?

Neither the self-checkout nor the human cashier can process transactions without electricity as in your "old days" because neither one knows the price of the thousands of individual items sold in the 21st century retail shop.

[Buns_of_Fire]

173. The registers in my store had hand cranks/levers/whatever for power outages...

So, instead of the poetic, fluid motion of a Master Cashier (tappity-tap-tap-tap, swivel the wrist and hit the "Grocery" key with the outside palm of your right hand while pushing the item down towards the waiting Master Bagger) -- you'd have inserted the crank into the hole on the right-side of the register, and the motion would be slowed to tappity-tap-tap-tap, reach over, pull the crank, wait for the ca-chunk telling you that the item registered, and then push the item down towards the waiting Master Bagger who was doing his next day's homework between items.

Weren't connected to none of them fancy-dancy confuzerized automatic inventory control systems, neither, no sir. And if'n we didn't know the price, hell, we'd just make up one on the fly!

And we liked it that way!:evilgrin:

[Gormy Cuss]

91. The merchandise has shelf pricing. If the lack of power is widespread and expected to be lengthy

the retailer would have to choose between no sales and slow sales. Some retailers would probably opt for the latter using whatever low tech method is necessary.

[NickB79]

101. They'd have to weigh the slow income to the cost of paying employees to come in for the day

It might be cheaper to close for a few days than pay employees to slowly make sales.

[Gormy Cuss]

114. Also factoring into the decision would be the loss of consumer confidence in the brand

as well as other factors. That's why I wrote that some would choose to remain open.

[blondeatlast]

149. In this case, we had no idea how long the outage would be. It turned out to be almost 48 hours, IIRC

[MadMaddie]

21. Umm...that's why it might be a bit important for people to be

able to count and use a calculator. Seriously.....if the employees can't manually do the work then the store closes. Seriously....

[Toucano]

34. Yes, they close.

How does a human know the price of an item without the computer these days, or do they store the UPC data in their heads?

[MadMaddie]

140. For crying out loud we are talking about the same thing

Companies have become complacent and have no backup plan. They are too reliant on technology. Small companies will fare better than the huge companies.

Why are you so confrontational?

[SpiralHawk]

2. Sign up now and train for a career as a Machine-Pointing Prole

...or be designated as a SPE*

* Surplus Prole Entity

[wakemewhenitsover]

47. lol!

Great image.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

3. Remember when they used to be called "Peoples"?

:-(

[csziggy]

45. Down here they were the Eckerd chain before CVS bought them n/t

[Jester Messiah]

93. Eckerd was so much better.

I guess CVS won the race to the bottom. Crap service and dingy stores must take less to run, thereby ensuring greater profitability.

[RobinA]

104. Eckerd

in my area (Philadelphia) was god awful. I prefer Walgreens. I don't know why.

[Carolina]

71. Yes!

Peoples Drugstore! :hi:

[bikebloke]

110. I still call them Peoples.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

161. I did for a long time after they changed their name, but

The stores around here are so NOT people-friendly that I let the name die.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

5. My grocery store has them too...

But they are OPTIONAL.

Fuck 'em.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

22. Wait till the charge a fine for NOT using the auto-check-out. It's only a matter of time.

[Wednesdays]

98. It WILL happen, though no one will call it a "fine"

It'll be called a "convenience fee" or "customer gratuity" or some such euphemism. :puke:

[Incitatus]

146. No, it will be a discount for using the automated machine.

Same difference, though

Either that or there will be 1 cashier open and all the rest of the lanes will be automated. You can either wait in line for 20 minutes or check out yourself in a few minutes. I have seen situations like this already.

[Liberal_in_LA]

150. yep. you pay already -with your time- because they have more auto-checkouts than human cashiers

[area51]

63. I go in a grocery store that has them,

along with regular manned checkouts. But this store, a Kroger's, stays open 24 hours, and during certain later hours, you can only checkout using the self-checkout stands.

[Cutatious]

7. When CVS starts pointing customers to fill their own pain med scripts

I bet there will be chaos.

[blueamy66]

I'd hit the narcotics first

you?

[Cutatious]

117. Well I sure would not be wasting time in the NSAID section...NT

[SoCalNative]

8. Soon you won't be able to shop anywhere

because almost every grocery store around here now has them installed, and I'm sure the CVS will be next.

There's even one grocery store chain called Fresh & Easy that has no human cashiers, only self check-outs.

[AsahinaKimi]

23. So if you have no employees to check out products

Does that give thieves incentive to just pretend they are paying and run out the door?

[RamboLiberal]

69. I wonder about that - several times I've come upon

self-checkout lanes in a local grocery chain where obviously whoever used it ahead of me has not finished the checkout & paid. So I wonder if they indeed pretend & walked out with the bagged groceries

[Wednesdays]

100. If thieves become a problem, they'll have everything locked until you pay

In other words, turn the store into one giant vending machine.

There are already "unmanned" gas stations...credit card only, you pay first and then pump. Not sure what you can do about it if there's ever a problem.

[tridim]

9. Maybe it's just me, but I love them at Costco. So fast.

[marmar]

10. I don't mind them being there.....I sometimes use them at Meijer.....

..... I just didn't like being directed to use one.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[customerserviceguy]

105. I don't mind them

but it seems that half the time, I get the one that hasn't been wiped down, and it takes six or seven passes to get the damn barcode scanner to register the purchase. Also, they're a pain in the ass for produce, but fortunatly, I do 90% of my produce shopping at a small market that specializes in the best the farm has to offer.

In any case, I have to have a human intervene more often than not, because I'm buying beer, and the fool thing can't figure out that I'm way over 21.

[blue neen]

11. Well, it looks like it's time to transfer scripts from CVS,

and I'll make sure I let their headquarters know why.

"Comments or Questions by Mail

At CVS/pharmacy customer service is a priority. Feel free to send us your comments or questions by mail.

For CVS.com inquiries mail to: For all other inquiries mail to:

CVS.com CVS Corporation
One CVS Drive
Woonsocket, RI 02895

Corporate Headquarters
One CVS Drive
Woonsocket, RI 02895


How ironic, "At CVS/pharmacy customer service is a priority!" :rofl:

[blueamy66]

74. You know what....

I shop at my neighborhood CVS because I love the deals, the couponing and the extra bucks....but most of all, because of the caring pharmacy staff....they are the best I've ever dealt with. To have a Pharmacist call me at home to see how I am doing after a drug reaction was monumental to me.

I guess that there are good and bad employees at every chain....but this woman at CVS has sold me.

And eff Walgreen's. They suck. :-)

[RKP5637]

84. CVS here is more pleasant than Walgreen's. The people in the pharmacy at

Walgreen's here are mean and weird. Maybe it's the GM at Walgreen's that hires them.

[blueamy66]

172. PLUS, Walgreen's screws me on prices....

CVS will charge me $2 for the same script that Walgreen's charges me $10 for.

My lowest tier generic is $10 and that is what Walgreen's charges me.....but CVS only charges me what the generic really costs.

I will only go to Walgreen's if I'm really sick, really need the drug and it is closer to the doc office/urgent care/ER than CVS.

[Raine]

12. I avoid those self checkout machines

99% of the time because it's just plain wrong to replace people with machines. :grr:

[ChazII]

26. Agreed. n/t

[freshwest]

28. Agreed. I don't care how long I have to wait for a person, I won't use them.

People in my area seem to be resisting them very well. We want people to have jobs.

I only used one once and it was all I could do to stop myself from walking off and leaving it all. The machine kept acting up since it didn't recognize my canvas bag. After each item I was having to start over again. Never again!

Since then, if any of the poor clerks tries to direct me to one I just play dumb, which is the end of that. I should get a trademark on my stupid look. It's served me so well.

[safeinOhio]

29. old fart here that

needs 2 real people to get me thru the self-check-out.

[Lugnut]

53. I'm with you.

I will not use them. A human being who needs a job will lose theirs becausse of do-it-yourself checkouts.

[RamboLiberal]

70. I try not to use them

but sometimes they leave you with no choice.

1-I want people to have jobs.

2-It takes me longer to do & bag myself. And what a friggin' pain to look up produce. I never realized how many varieties of apples there are.

3-If they are making me act like an employee in checking out & bagging my purchases then they darn well should give me a discount for saving them labor costs.

[Taitertots]

58. Does that mean you only eat food from fields plowed by horse?

Is it only wrong when you don't think it makes your life easier.

[Raine]

59. Seeing someone's job disappear before your very eyes

and not wanting to be a part of that is my choice. What you do is your business, not mine. Your comparison just doesn't make sense.

[Taitertots]

61. What do you think mechanization did to farming? Those jobs disappeared too

Doing extra work for no good reason isn't "saving jobs" it is fighting progress. Just like going back to horse drawn plows or hand separating cotton seeds. Fighting automated check outs is just as silly as fighting the cotton gin. Or fighting solar power to save coal mining jobs.

[WinkyDink]

79. I like to do my little neo-Luddite bit for humans.

[Art_from_Ark]

103. The mechanization of farming helped to free farm kids

from having to spend half of their waking hours doing chores around the farm. In the 1800s and early 1900s, for example, family farms didn't hire outside help if there were kids who could provide "free" labor. My own great-grandfather "produced" 10 kids for just that purpose.

[Taitertots]

175. That is one aspect, it also cost a great deal of farming jobs

Obviously farmer's children were not the only people who worked on farms. The first jobs lost to mechanization would be the hired workers.

[Art_from_Ark]

177. Not necessarily

I think a lot of farms in the Midwest, at least, relied in large part on the labor of the farmer's children. The farmers didn't want to hire outsiders if they had kids who could do the work. But the advent of mechanization meant that someone had to know how to operate and maintain the machinery. If neither the farmer nor his progeny knew how to do it, then they would have to hire an outsider. Basically that's what my great-grandfather did after the last of his offspring escaped from their "indentured servitude".

[eShirl]

170. oh what a load

comparing automated checkouts to the cotton gin. PLEASE!

[BR_Parkway]

64. Thank you, I'm the same way - why should I do the "work" for no incentive

and the company just gets to fire one more person to make their bottom line go higher.

I refuse to use them

[Llewlladdwr]

88. The incentive is that the business will be able to offer lower prices...

because their overhead is lower.

By offering lower prices they can attract more customers, allowing them to accumulate more capital, which allows them to open more locations, ultimately resulting in increased employment in those positions that can't be automated. Both the business and the consumer benefit.

Pretty basic economic theory....

[RobinA]

109. Yeah

that happens. Gas definitely went down after self-serve, and I notice it's way cheaper here in PA than in NJ where they don't have self-serve, only actual people pumping gas. Oh, wait.... OK, so ticket prices went down after I could order them online, and they discount me a convenience fee for using less labor for my purchase. Nope, you say? Well, my bank gives me an uptick of interest since they don't return cancelled checks and I went paperless. Oops....

So much for that theory.

[Llewlladdwr]

119. What are the fuel taxes in PA versus NJ?

You think there could possibly be any factor affecting gas prices in different states other than full versus self serve? Or that ticket prices wouldn't be even higher if you couldn't order online? Or that your bank wouldn't implement user fees if they had to keep sending you cancelled checks and monthly statements?

A business that is able to offer a good or service for less than their competitors will see their share of the market increase, all other things being equal. Maybe you should shop around for a new bank...

[peabody]

121. That's really naive.

What's going to happen is that they'll pocket any profits, and keep prices as they are or even raise them. Your "basic economic theory" doesn't take into account corporate greed.

[Llewlladdwr]

122. Of course it does.

It only takes one business lowering prices to put pressure on the rest to do so. If I can get the same product or service for less I'm going to do so and tell my friends and family about it. If they're smart they'll take advantage of the lower price as well and soon the business sees an increase in overall profit even though the profit on specific items is less. So by passing on the savings in overhead to the consumer via lower prices I actually accumulate even more capital than my short-sighted competitor, allowing me to be even wealthier in the end. Greed, like revenge, is a dish best served cold.

[Wednesdays]

126. It tastes great, too! New and improved style and comfort...now with more vitamins

I should join you in writing this stuff.
:rofl:

[Llewlladdwr]

128. So tell us then, O sage....

How does the world really work?

[peabody]

133. How it works is that

the corporation pockets the profits and keep the prices the same. No one lowers their prices and you're stuck with the same choices only now you interact with a machine rather than a person at check out.

[Llewlladdwr]

Just out of curiosity, how many businesses have you run?

Try to think logically about this. Businesses A, B and C all sell widgets. Each company is originally spending the same amount to obtain the widgets and is selling them at the same price. Business A develops a means of obtaining widgets which allows them to reduce their cost. A can then lower the price to their customers while still maintaining the same profit level. Market share and profits go up because more widgets are being sold. The business becomes more successful, customers get more value for their money, and everybody is better off than they were before.

This isn't a theory folks, or some delusion. This happens every day in businesses in this country and across the world. While I grant that in particular instances any given company might make poor decisions regarding re-investment of capital a successful, long-term business will act as I've described. Those that don't cease to operate.

[peabody]

138. None. But that doesn't

mean I can't see what's going with businesses all around me. Gas prices remains high for one reason or another; bank fees have been tacked on to raise the cost of banking despite the wide spread use of ATM. Your theories might sound good in principle but they just don't hold up in the real world. A lot of other factors come into play to increase corporate profits while keeping prices the same or higher while the consumer is left with less and less services--and choices too.

[Llewlladdwr]

142. People only see what they want to I guess.

So how exactly do you 'see' what's going on with the businesses around you? Do you talk to the employees, or management or consult a crystal ball?

There are many, many factors that affect the prices of goods and services. Even if a business is able to reduce costs in one area that doesn't mean their overall costs won't go up and necessitate a price increase. Have you considered that without the advent of ATM's banks might be charging even higher fees?

[kestrel91316]

158. You live in a Randian fantasy world. Seriously.

[OhioBlue]

163. you're leaving out the customer service aspect of

this. Personally, I have used the self-check outs when lines were long and I can tell you that if I'm only picking up one item, they're okay. For groceries... they suck and left me with a completely negative consumer experience. Very negative. At the time, I wished I had waited in line rather than trying to self-check out.

I was mad at the grocery chain for not having enough cashiers on hand so that the lines weren't so long. They pointed me to the self check-outs. I couldn't use my store loyalty card b/c I didn't have it with me to scan... the cashiers can look it up with my phone number.. but not the machines. So I paid more. I couldn't use my canvass bags easily - had to put the stuff in the pre-positioned plastic bags and then transfer..... It took forever and my 3 yr old son was losing his patience.

I haven't gone back to that grocery store b/c it left such a bad impression on me and have opted for others that have better customer service.

Your "economics" argument has a place, but I do think that it ignores a marketing/sales philosophy about customer service - we've lost it in so many parts of our society and I truly think consumers are starting to reach a breaking point.

[Jester Messiah]

166. Register jockeys aren't exactly renowned for their excellent customer service.

Also, every grocery store I've been to with the terminals has had the capability to punch in my phone number. There's really nothing to it.
But even with automated checkout, you sometimes have to get assistance from the person overseeing the automated terminals. That job isn't going away, just changing a bit. I certainly don't want to have to lose the automated terminals due to luddites. Stores with the terminals get my business, the ones without, don't.

[OhioBlue]

178. This grocery store did not - the attendant informed me of that.

I'm not sure where you live - but in my semi-rural area the cashiers are very pleasant. I know several of them, a couple personally and several just b/c they have worked at the local grocery for so long. My fave store also has people that still carry your groceries to your car - wonderfully polite and helpful. I guess it just depends on where you put your priorities.

I went to a gas station a few months ago, got out and a guy came over and asked me how much gas I wanted... I didn't know what to do - I asked him if he worked there... lol... I thought it must be some kind of "pay forward" experiment or something. He said yes, that he worked there, I asked him to fill it up.... I sat in my car and didn't know what to do... it has been forever since I had full-serve. Then... he cleaned my windshield!!! hollllyyy mollyyyy... freakin' customer service... oh boy was that a blast from the past. Luckily I had some cash in my purse and tipped the guy $5 because I was so appreciative... It's calming and you forget how much it is once you become accustomed to self-serve everything. True customer service is value.

[PaulaFarrell]

171. That is a theory and a delusion

Businesses don't work that way, even small ones. Well, maybe a few small ones but they generally don't last long. My father for example would always sell things at twice what he paid - even if he paid $5 for some worth $100, he would sell it for $10. Needless to say, we weren't very well off. My sister on the other hand is a much better businesswoman and always sells at what the market will bear, and pockets the excess.

In the real world of large corporations, there are always two goals, increase revenue and cut costs. The marketing guys are usually targeted with increasing revenue and everyone else with reducing costs. Whether revenue increases or not, the drive to cust costs exists independently. If running costs are cut successfully, this does not trigger a reduction to the retail price of a product - though it does probably trigger a bonus to somebody somewhere.

Prices do decrease obviously, but only in an attempt to expand market share or create new customers. If this can be done without dropping price, it certainly will be - more profit = bigger bonuses, fancier company cars, higher dividends and higher share price (all vital for those in the top echelon of any major corporation). It is competition that drives price decreases (ideally forcing a company to behave more efficiently, but not necessarily - they could also decide to cut back on safety), not vice versa. I am not saying that price and cost per unit are not linked, of course they are, but not in the primitive way that your example gives. There are many many other factors.

Do you honestly think that if grocery store A fires 10 checkers, it takes their salaries and runs around the store taking 2 cents off the price of eggs and milk? who would notice? such a move would in no way increase the competetiveness of the grocery store but it would reduce the bonus pool. As someone who has sat through many a meeting with CEO and their ilk going on about ebitda and share price ad inifinutim, let me assure ou that cost-cutting is about increasing the wealth of the people at the top. In rare cases, it's about the survival of the company, but even then I think you'll find the director's bonus hinges on that.

Even in your example above, it does not hold true that a company will necessarily drop its price to increase its market share. They may already be operating at capacity and to increase it would require so much investment that it would be self-defeating, just as one example of how the textbook theory you give can fall through in the real world.

Lastly, of course, everyone is not better off. The employees and shareholders of B & C are worse off, and even if A increases employees, it will almost certainly not be equal to the number who lose their jobs elsewhere. Consumers may be marginally better off if they buy a lot of widgets.

[Dulcinea]

65. I only use them if I'm buying 1 or 2 items without coupons.

For a big grocery load, or when I'm using coupons, I want a real live human to check me out.

If you want to use coupons at the self-checkout, you have to find a clerk anyway.

[onenote]

131. not at all stores

One grocery chain here makes you give coupons to a person who attends to their four self-check outs. But at two other grocery chains, the current equipment allows you to scan coupons just like you scan grocery items.

Sometimes I use self check out, sometimes I don't. It depends on how long the lines are and how many items I have.

[AngryOldDem]

82. Same here.

Part of it is because I'm mechanically challenged :blush: but a bigger part of it is I feel like I'm taking honest work away from people.

My library has a similar feature and I've noticed that customer service at the checkout desk sucks big time. Another reason why I don't like them.

[Llewlladdwr]

86. Wow. How do you feel about washing machines?

Are they evil too?

[Jester Messiah]

94. Disagree.

I love 'em, they're so much more efficient. Maybe you get competent, friendly cashiers where you live, but in my experience it was usually a mouth-breathing dullard in no hurry to expedite my check-out. Can't say I miss THAT particular social interaction.

[Llewlladdwr]

124. I'm with you.

The number of folks here who seem to prefer wasting their time standing in line rather than scanning their own items and getting on to something better is surprising.

[Wednesdays]

127. Heh

The number of folks here who seem to prefer shilling for corporate greed is surprising.

[Jester Messiah]

129. Not at all, we're just not luddites. [nt]

[Llewlladdwr]

130. I could care less about corporate greed.

I'm more concerned with my own. If a business can offer me lower prices through this type of automation them I'm for it. I like just about anything that puts more money in MY pocket.

[peabody]

141. And that's what's wrong with the world today.

Some people are only concerned about themselves but not to society in general. Corporations and some people are racing to the bottom and unfortunately taking the rest of society with them. It's fine if you object to rude checkout people but rather then replacing them with machines how about having the corporations teach them better people skills? To me, the more and more we replace people with machines and don't find employment for them the worst off we'll be.

[Llewlladdwr]

143. That's really nice and all...

But I already have six people that I'm wholly responsible for. In other words, if I don't provide they don't eat. Or have a place to live. Or clothes to wear. You get the picture. So I feel like any money a business can save me is a good thing. If you want to call that racing for the bottom, well, okay.

[peabody]

153. I understand that. And saving

money is not a bad thing. But have you thought about what happens to your family (assuming those are the people you're referring to) as they try to look for work while companies are replacing more and more employees with machines? Look, automation is not a bad thing (I'm a tech worker myself) but at some point we have to say "why" and is it worth it to do so. To me, if it doesn't impact employment, or the displaced employees have other options then I'm all for it; but such is not the case. Jobs are scarce and making them more scarce helps no one in the long run.

[kestrel91316]

160. Are you confused? This is DEMOCRATIC Underground, and not

Libertarian Underground. We don't put personal gain before all else.

[Jester Messiah]

165. This is indeed DU...

And to speak of its members en bloc is to reveal a fundamental misunderstanding of the place. There are as many opinions and attitudes here as there are members. "We" do a lot of different things.

[kestrel91316]

159. Yeah. Interacting with living, breathing humans is such a waste of time.......

All hail the mighty machines!!

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

15. When no business needs to hire people to make, distribute and sell products...

...who will they sell to?

[neverforget]

40. The people who sell, transport and install those machines?

Notice I didn't say produce them? That's either automated or made overseas.

[Pancho Sanza]

16. Last year about this time there were dozens of them in local markets here

but now there are none. The stores thought they would save money but it turned out they lost more to stealing than they could ever hope to save by substituting the 'honor system' for live employees. So much for 'innovation'.

[bullwinkle428]

38. This is exactly why Wal-Mart has an employee "supervising" the

self-checkout process, by having them at a register looking directly at a group of 4 self-checkout machines.

Knowing W-M, I'm sure they did all of the bean-counting to determine their business cost of paying one person, while knowing that some people will slip stuff through without scanning, vs. paying 4 people to man the conventional registers.

[RKP5637]

18. Eventually no checkout will be needed, RFID tags will scan as you shop, walk out

without an appropriate balance and alarms will sound. Do I like it, hell no.

[MadHound]

72. And that will be a shoplifter's dream,

There are easy, easy ways to foil an RFID tag.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

19. If I use them I want a discount.

Groceries cost me the same whether I use a human checker or the self service scanners. Make them like the gas stations where full service costs more.

[tallahasseedem]

20. I have to admit that I do like...

the self-checkout for purchasing very "personal" items but otherwise, I don't like them.

[whistler162]

24. Yeah thats the ticket.. not trying to be nice to you

and help you get out of the store with your purchase quicker. How many where in the line and how fast was it moving? Maybe he was serving a customer and knew it would take some time.

Its all a corporate conspiracy!

[marmar]

25. They directed everyone to them, slowing the checkout process down considerably.....

..... he didn't serve anyone. But don't let facts get in the way. :eyes:

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Llewlladdwr]

89. You didn't provide that fact earlier, so it really wasn't in the way. NT

[Toucano]

37. Sounds like a conspiracy to me.

Notice he, "...looked up, smiled and pointed..."

That's what the corporate warlords want!

[madinmaryland]

27. I have no problem using the self-check-out machine. If I have

a small amount of standard items, yes I can save time. If it is odd-ball stuff, it's probably a wash or easier to use a human check-out. The stores with the self-checkout have at least one or two people manning those aisle anyhow, if there is a problem.

[dixiegrrrrl]

31. I dislike them and ignore them and refuse to use them.

I hate the loud mechanical voice, the I hate the fact they get stuck on some produce items, they are slower than a human check out.
One of our stores uses them, I voice my complaint to the manager every time I go in.

the other thing I hate is that damn card system.

Fortunately, they never check as to the accuracy of the name, so my dog is on the card at his made up address and I use cash at carded stores.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

33. I'd love to see some stats on acceptance of those (goddamn) self checkout aisles.

[Zanzobar]

36. Nevah! I cannot stomach it!

[saras]

39. They're fun

I used to have a job doing computer software testing - that is, my job was to get software to crash, and document what it was that caused the crash.

I LOVE self-checkout machines. I locked up a whole store once. Every register in the store quit at once - at around midnight - because the cash-register server (i.e. the big computer in the office that all the registers connect to) didn't like some button I pushed at the wrong time. At one local store, I can get their self-checkout machines to not charge tax on taxable items. But, of course, not being a criminal, I politely point this out to one of the checkers, and offer to pay the tax. They, of course, can't deal with it, so they have to call management in...

[Ilsa]

41. I like self-check machines. I'm more likely to catch a pricing error than

if I'm having to watch the cashier.

Plus, I get out faster.

Our grocer's set of four self-check machines have one attendant there to help if it is needed.

[Stinky The Clown]

42. I'm with you. I see them as replacement for actual jobs

I mention this to cashiers and they seem amazingly unconcerned about the machines.

[Historic NY]

43. Self-checkouts that can't work w/o human employees are useless.

[Samantha]

44. I refuse to use them at CVS

I wait in the line for the real person. If they point to the machines, I just keep looking at them and don't make a move. Once I handed my stuff to the manager and said if you want it scanned, scan it yourself, I don't work here. He walked over and scanned the stuff.

It is not my desire to help eliminate jobs during this recession; nor is it my job to work to maintain the CVS inventory detail.

[Iggo]

46. Always have and always will refuse to use the self check-out.

If they ask me why, I tell them "Because I don't work here."

[Glassunion]

48. I hate to be the voice of dissent. Here are a couple of facts.

1. Not all(but some do) companies use self-checkout to eliminate employees. They install them to turn their parking lot faster. Basically, with the exact same number of employees they can help more customers and actually get more done.

2. Depending on the manufacturer of the self checkout, it actually creates a lot of jobs right here in the US. Lot's of them. If the systems are made by the most popular of the self-checkout vendors, the systems are developed, programed and designed in Georgia. They are fabricated and assembled in South Carolina. We are talking hundreds upon hundreds of software developers and well over a few thousand in the fabrication and assembly plant. Then you have the local repair technicians, suppliers and regional support techs.

WalMart did use the systems to eliminate jobs. But you cannot use that as the norm for all other companies.

Think about it like this. Let's say you ran a small store the size of a CVS. Your customers do not come into your store in a steady stream, you have moments of absolutely no one in the store to moments where you are swamped. It would be bad business to hire an employee who you put on a shelf for 45 minutes out of every hour and pull them down for the other 15 minutes to run a register. Also, if your parking lot is full, your potential customers might not stop and take their business to someone else. But if you have one cashier who can accomplish the work of two or even three, you have created an efficiency. Sure they may not be hiring a local part time employee, but they are keeping thousands of others employed.

I used to think that self-checkout was to eliminate jobs like in the WalMart example. I have had an opportunity to see it from the other side and had to change my mind. I do not shop at WalMart, but if I did, I would go to a cashier. As for CVS, I do not know their motive, but I would think that with the size of their stores, no one is losing their job.

[Bunny]

76. I agree with your first point.

My supermarket uses them and I don't notice any decrease in employees, in fact they have nearly as many people manning the self-checkouts as they do the full service ones. These employees bag the groceries, troubleshoot problems with the machines, etc. I doubt if anyone has actually lost a job over these, at least not at my store.

My local KMart tried them, though, and they were a complete flop. The machines malfunctioned all the time, and I mean all the time. They got rid of the machines altogether after only a couple of months.

[Mimosa]

49. I refuse to use them. ( I don't shop at CVS either.) n/t

[Mimosa]

162. The dignity of human work.

There can be jobs for everybody, despite his or her capacity. We as a human species need to realise machiney isn't the end. Human beings must have enployment.

[Hugin]

50. I deliberately don't know how to use those machines-of-the-devil.

ROBOTS! :spits:

Seriously, if I was ever "forced" to I would quite consciously screw up the whole transaction.

[Historic NY]

51. I just came in from using one, they foul up more often than not....

could not tell banannas and went whacky on a couple similar purchases.

[Cleita]

52. I was steered to one of those at my super market

a few years back. I asked the store manager who was trying to get me to use it if I was an employee or would I get 40% off my purchases because there was no way I was going to become an unpaid employee. I notice today that those self checkouts are manned by checkout employees. No one asks you to do self check-out anymore at that store. Just refuse to do it. Years ago we were asked to pump our own gas because it would be cheaper. Now you HAVE to pump your own gas and gas is not cheaper by a long shot.

[Hugin]

55. "there was no way I was going to become an unpaid employee."

My sentiments on the matter... Exactly.

Thanks for summing it up, Cleita. ;)

[RamboLiberal]

73. +1 I too alway thought if they are going to make me be an employee

for that time they ought to give me a discount for saving them from paying a human being & doing the labor myself.

[Carolina]

75. excellent point

"Now you HAVE to pump your own gas and gas is not cheaper by a long shot."

[madinmaryland]

155. That has to one the least informed comparisons I have ever heard on DU or anywhere for that

matter.

:wtf:

[WinkyDink]

80. I still won't pump my own gas. As an old lady, I ain't gettin' outta my car. I have a couple "full

service" places around, but I also live near and sometimes drive to to New Jersey, where it is ILLEGAL to pump one's own gas!
Go, Jersey! Go, Jersey!

[demodonkey]

90. You wouldn't get much gas in Western PA... most Full Serves are gone.

But yes, I LOVE buying gas in Jersey when I am out there. (Not only do they pump for you, it's cheaper too!)

[madinmaryland]

156. "Now you HAVE to pump your own gas and gas is not cheaper by a long shot. "

:wtf:

[mrmpa]

54. I occasionally use them, but I think users should be extended a %age off

their purchase for using them and saving the corporations money.

[Cleita]

57. Even if they did that, their purpose is to get

everyone to use them and then you will have no choice and they will not lower the prices. Look what happened when they lured us into pumping our own gas to save money. Are you saving money on gas now even though you have to pump your own because there are no longer attendants to do it?

[Llewlladdwr]

97. Full service stations in my area are more expensive than self-serve.

So yeah, I'm still saving money.

[Cleita]

99. Really you still have full service?

I don't have a single one. I haven't seen one in my state for over a decade. However, on our border to the north in Oregon, they have full service by law and gas is cheaper there than in California.

[Gormy Cuss]

102. Exactly. Gas is also cheaper in the other mandated full service state, NJ, than in NY or PA.

The truth of the matter is that competition drives pricing. Self-serve saves businesses money but without competition there is NO incentive to pass on those savings to consumers.

[Llewlladdwr]

108. While I agree that lack of competition equals a lack of downward pressure on prices...

there are other factors involved in determining the price in a given area. What fuel taxes do NY and PA impose, and how do they compare to NJ?

[Gormy Cuss]

118. Those are costs of doing business and are part of the formula for setting prices.

NJ taxes may be kept lower specifically because lobbyists have argued that it's the way to keep the prices competitive and therefore a way of keeping revenue in the state. NJ has a large presence of oil companies in the state and that could contribute to lower costs, but some other refining states don't have lower prices than neighboring, nonproducing states (Cleita's example of CA vs. OR, for one.)

[Llewlladdwr]

120. I'm not understanding what you're saying.

I think we're agreeing that tax rates on gas will affect the price of gas, and that different tax rates can result in one area having higher prices while the actual profit per gallon of gas is the same.

There are also other things that can affect the price of fuel, such as the cost of meeting the state's regulatory burden. This can include monies spent to manufacture a product as well as seemingly unrelated costs like financial reporting. This is why a state that contains oil refineries could have higher gas prices than one that doesn't. It just costs more to operate there than in the less regulated state, ergo prices must be higher so the business can survive. This is a plausible explanation for the price difference between CA and OR, although I don't have any numbers to do an actual comparison.

[Gormy Cuss]

148. I'm acknowledging that other factors come into playing when pricing a product.

In your statement here
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=90580&mesg_id=92769

you claim that consumers have an incentive to participate in self-service (self-checkout in that instance, pumping gas in this subthread) because business can offer lower prices. The examples on gasoline pricing in full serve vs. neighboring self serve states are held out because it's a rather glaring and consistent trend that in the state where there is no self-service options prices on average aren't as high.

When self-service gas pumps were new the prices were consistently lower because that was a necessary marketing device to encourage consumers to adopt this practice. Now there's no incentive to keep prices lower to induce consumer participation in the states where self-serve has become the norm.

The interesting thing with self-checkout at retail is that consumers do not see an immediate benefit in terms of lower prices. Rather the incentive is only shorter time in the checkout process as retailers opt to understaff the traditional checkout lines.

[Llewlladdwr]

106. There's at least one, just recently passed by it.

Also does mechanic work.

Comparing gas prices across state lines can be tricky though. There might be tax and other issues that come into play.

[Citizen Worker]

60. This has happened to me twice at a QFC grocery store and each time I've told the person directing me

to the self checkout, no, I prefer being checked out by a Union member and I say it loud enough for other customers to hear. Each time the store staff has thanked me and I reiterate that I wouldn't be shopping in the store if it weren't a Union establishment. And I proudly wear a button on my outer clothing year round that reads, Tis The Season To Be Union.

[awoke_in_2003]

62. I worked retail for (far too) many years...

part of the cost of the product was my service. I expect the same when I buy something- I am not there to work.

[LeftinOH]

67. If you're only buying one or two items, the self-checkout is perfectly OK to use-

think of it as a vending machine.

[Auggie]

96. That's how are local supermarket promoted them, but they did

cut the number of human cashiers too.

[negativenihil]

68. i hate self checkout.

Mostly at the grocery store - but those lines move so much slower. Each person gets to the self checkout register and then it's like they become a deer caught in headlights when they are confronted with the computer screen.

It's almost as if no one ever retains memory of using these devices - so it's a whole new experience each and every time.

[xchrom]

77. i never use them - even for one item. nt

[WinkyDink]

78. "Self-checkout" = Fewer employees. I refuse to use the machines.

Call it "anti-progress." Call it "silly." Call it late for dinner.
As Tommy Lee Jones's cop said to Harrison Ford's Fugitive: "I don't care."

[Historic NY]

87. not the ones where I live they have 1-2 employees babysitting...

the customers & the scanners. I do hate the ones at Home Despot or Lowes the cashiers disappear leaving you to the mercy of the automated gizmo.

[lost-in-nj]

81. the Stop and Shop by my house

not only has self checkout but if you bring your own bags they have a portable scanner you can use and when you choose an item you can scan it and bag it... at the end of your shopping you put the scanner up to a special reader (either a self- check out or a manned one) and it tallys your total, you pay and your off....
I don't use either one... I always go to a person. I also think it takes a job away from someone.

lost

[Odin2005]

83. I hate those things, they overload my Aspie brain!

too many steps for too many items = ARRRRRGH!!!

[Tracer]

85. My library recently installed self-checkout, and I like it!

It's far easier and quicker to drop the books on the scanner table and press 1 button than to wait in line for the librarian to check out the books.

However, for stores -- not a chance of me using them. I totally agree with above posters who say "they are not employees".

[Gormy Cuss]

176. With a library, you're reducing operating costs at a publicly funded service.

However, that probably means that staffing levels have been reduced either through layoffs or opting not to replace staff loss to normal attrition. In my local library the machines replace volunteers rather than paid staff because the deep cuts in the staff budget happened over a decade ago.

[aikoaiko]

92. Do you stay away from ATMs and only go to full service gas stations.

Do you make the cashiers swipe your card too?

I have no idea what the big deal is. Use the self-check systems or don't. No business that I know of forces you to use them.

[L0oniX]

95. This is all about eliminating jobs.

[Llewlladdwr]

115. But it also creates better jobs.

According to the BLS, retail cashiers earn an hourly mean wage of $9.15.

Production occupations, like the workers who assemble the self scanners, earn an hourly mean wage of $16.01.

Installation, maintenance and repair workers earn an hourly mean wage of $20.30.

Which of these jobs would you suggest we encourage the creation of?

[L0oniX]

152. Ones that stay here in the USA.

[peabody]

154. EXACTLY!

Some people can quote economic theories all day and tell you why something bad is really good for you. In the end, we still end up with tons of jobs lost. Yes, maybe making those machines requires more skills and pays more but, you're right, who said that those jobs are going to be done here?

[LuckyTheDog]

107. Here is the deal with those machines

From the moment you start using it, there should be a clock running. At the end of your purchase, you should get credit for a pro-rated amount equal to the federal minimum wage for the time you spent using that thing.

[bikebloke]

111. I refuse, saying aloud that they cost people jobs.

If someone is behind me, I'll wave them through and wait for a live checker to be free.

[Taverner]

112. One of the most convenient ways to destroy the UFCW

[DainBramaged]

113. Self-checkouts checkout jobs, one employee supervises 4 job killers around here

Which is why I refuse to shop at Home Depot, A&P, and everywhere else once I find them. Target and apparently Walmart and Lowes don't use them.

[ecstatic]

116. Self checkout is PERFECT for a drug store setting

Are you kidding me? At least in these parts. Nothing worse than the cash register guy flirting with you as he checks out all your personal items!

[Glassunion]

134. That's why I hang out at pharmacies...

I wait to overhear the Rx Tech tell the ladies that if they take antibiotics it will make "these" less effective. That's how you find the women who are goers.:evilgrin:

[Rebubula]

123. I love them

Many times when I go into a store, I am in my own world and just want to be surgical - not social.

Every new technology eliminates jobs - it has always been that way.

Every thing will be OK...I promise you.

Unrec'd for creating drama where there is none.

[Lucian]

125. Walmart has those and customers are idiots on them.

How fucking hard is it to scan and bag? Simple enough. Yes, you HAVE to bag the item. There's a scale there, people!!! Don't hold up the line because you were too stupid to realize the machine is beeping at you to bag the fucking item. And no, the self checkout doesn't accept personal checks! Learn to read before scanning, idiot! Otherwise you hold up the line because you were too stupid to read.

</rant>

[Glassunion]

132. After doing some homework on the self checkout in CVS I was not too disappointed

It does appear that CVS is not heading down the road of workforce reduction.

http://jamaicaplaingazette.com/node/4518
“Employees who were manning the registers are being redeployed to different areas of the store,” including stocking and assisting customers on the sales floor. “Long-term, there will be no impact on the head count,”.

I of course did find an article that is blaming Obama and health care reform for the self-checkouts and job elimination...
http://washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/2010/12/diana-furchtgott-roth-obamacare-will-hurt-low-skill-workers

I love this story about WalMart and their self checkout.
http://www.9news.com/news/watercooler/article.aspx?storyid=72785


Overall, it depends on the company.
Some are looking to reduce costs by eliminating jobs and placing these self checkout systems in their locations. This I think will hurt these companies in the long run. Sure there are some customers who don't like dealing with cashiers and just want to get out the door. But if you shave away at the staff too much you end up with poor customer service. I am in the service industry and I will tell you that this is the biggest mistake you can make. I have seen many companies and small businesses fold because they got greedy. They eliminate the people(their company's face to the customer), have them still need to perform the same number of tasks with less. This causes stress in your employees who in turn show it to your customers. Even something as simple as not saying good morning to a customer can have a negative impact on your business. If I had 20 things on my to-do list and a boss climbing up my ass to get it done, I would look at any customers as an interruption and this is not how it should be.

If a company uses these systems as a convenience to their customers by giving them the option to get in and out of a store faster, while still having the same number of employees, they are doing themselves a service. First you have an employee with more time to get their list of 20 things done. Their boss would not be climbing up their ass, because they have the time to get it done and they can constantly do it. Now you have an employee who is more willing to spend time with customers. This is what you need. These companies know that their store employees, from the cashier to employee who cleans the bathrooms and floors are the company's face. It is not the CEO or president. It is John or Jane the cashiers. They are the spokespeople for the company. They are the single most important piece in the puzzle. These are the people that need to be taken care of. Because in turn, they take care of the company. Now if you can leverage a technology to make their lives easier and make them more efficient in the process, you would be stupid not to use it.

[Hugin]

135. Sorry, I don't buy it.

Not for a second... First of all, CUSTOMERS ARE JOB #1 and if customers are "interfering" with the 20 tasks an employee is assigned to do then I seriously doubt management has thought about their broken business plan.

Based on this your whole "It's a good thing" thesis sounds contrived.

[Glassunion]

145. Did you even read my post?

How did you ascertain that I was implying that it was a good thing?

In fact I outlined exactly how it can be a bad thing. I also outlined exactly your point how customers are job #1. I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that I did not think that the customer is the entire goal or the service industry.

"But if you shave away at the staff too much you end up with poor customer service. I am in the service industry and I will tell you that this is the biggest mistake you can make. I have seen many companies and small businesses fold because they got greedy. They eliminate the people(their company's face to the customer), have them still need to perform the same number of tasks with less. This causes stress in your employees who in turn show it to your customers. Even something as simple as not saying good morning to a customer can have a negative impact on your business. If I had 20 things on my to-do list and a boss climbing up my ass to get it done, I would look at any customers as an interruption and this is not how it should be."

Also from my post title: "not too disappointed", meaning that I am still disappointed, just not so much as I initially was. Does that tell you that I think it is a good thing?

Yes I did outline how it can work, but did I state that this is the case with CVS? No I did not.

Did I state that that is how all companies look at it? No, I did not.

All I did was outline how it "could" be a good thing "if" they did it that way. This was all prefaced by the prior paragraph about the customer and customer service, using all of the same assumptions.

"If a company uses these systems as a convenience to their customers by giving them the option to get in and out of a store faster, while still having the same number of employees, they are doing themselves a service.
<snip>
Now you have an employee who is more willing to spend time with customers. This is what you need."

[Hugin]

151. It's contrived to rationalize the purpose of these machines. Which is to eliminate labor.

I find your trying to rationalize some other purpose to be strange at the least... Oh, yeah... I'm going to believe that it's to "improve customer service" by freeing up employee time for other purposes. What are their other purposes other than to do exactly what they are currently doing?

Okay, once the check-out procedure is automated... I'm guessing the next step is to automate the stocking process. Then what are employees going to do... Gab with customers?

That's a hilarious premise.

Retail businesses are in business for one reason and one reason only... To make money. They have no conscience.

In the business climate currently about the only cost controllable by management on a daily basis is labor... So, they are commoditizing the cost of labor.

They think they've found a way to have customer employees and not pay them a Living Wage. Face it.

[Glassunion]

157. Care to cite your source for the statement that their purose: Which is to eliminate labor.

[Hugin]

167. At any time you can do an Internet Search with the words Automated Checkout Machines Reduce Staff.

And receive over 3,140,000 hits... Many of them white papers by the Manufacturer's themselves. Although, they use euphemisms like "employee shrink" and "backroom management" they ALL talk about the need for less checkout personnel.

Now, you and I both know that the retail industry uses euphemisms extensively for the act of FIRING EMPLOYEES... "layoff" "let-go" "re-purpose" "re-educate".

Oh, "Glassunion"... I get it. You intend to shatter Unions like Glass. Ohh... Well, no need to discuss this topic with you any longer.

Silly me. I usually catch these things earlier. The "Creative Class" never catches on until it's their head on the block. The Tech Bubble proved that.

Carry on.

[Glassunion]

174. A few things

My DU name has nothing to do with any "union" at all. I am a huge fan of the Beatles. It is just simply a take on one of their song titles.

I want you to please explain to me Tesco. I am using them as an example because the were the very first in their industry to use self checkout. They rolled out self checkout into over 80% of their stores starting almost 9 years ago. Their staff levels have not dropped. WTF? Why would they possibly spend over £10,000 per unit, installing on average 4 units per store and not fire 1 cashier? Currently Tesco is starting to roll out their 3rd generation of self checkout. Why aren't these machines replacing their cashiers? I think that 9 years is ample time to train your customers and fire your employees. Why would they continue to roll these machines into their stores if they do not get to fire their cashiers? What could possibly be the point? How is it that their staff levels have grown at the exact same pace as the company?

Is it only a matter of time? Almost a decade and still nothing yet. How long before they fire the employees? Even though this is a foreign company. How many American jobs did their purchase of the self checkout help support?

I have the answers to these questions, you may be surprised.

[Deep13]

137. Corporate bullshit. nt

[Glassunion]

144. What are you talking about?

[Deep13]

136. No. ...

So far I have only seen them in supermarkets. None of those machines has been able to show me a union card.

[itsrobert]

139. Just what I want to do. Use a self check out in a store that caters to the sick

I'm sure it will contribute to more people getting sick and sicker so they can sell more OTC and prescription drugs. Home Run for CVS.

[Little Star]

147. I refuse to use them even though they are easy to use....

I won't put my shopping cart away either (though I do make sure it is not in a parking space and that it will not roll.) I also refuse to bag my own stuff no matter how busy the place is. I figure things like that cost people a job. I don't care who does or does not agree with me, thats the way I see it.

Some have tried to convince me that that is part of the reason prices go up. To that I say baloney. Prices will go up regardless.

(Rant Off)

[niyad]

164. I refuse to use the damned things, EVER. their primary purpose is to reduce the number of employees

(well, except for the ones who have to repair those expensive toys regularly) I refuse to bag my own purchases, AND I absolutely hate the talking machines. (many years ago, when some supermarkets went to talking registers, I complained A LOT. guess a lot of other people did, as well, since they were soon replaced.

[Name removed]

168. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sendero]

169. I've shopped there a couple of times..

.. and could not help but notice that the prices there are insane.

I don't need self-checkout to stay out of those stores.