"18 years after Waco, Davidians believe Koresh was God"

[Paradoxical]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/04/14/waco.koresh.believers/index.html?hpt=C1

Waco, Texas (CNN) -- Sheila Martin's children burned alive. God, she says, wanted it that way.

"I don't expect you to understand," she says, leaning her bird-tiny frame against a full shopping cart in the nursery aisle at a Super Walmart. Her pink shirt, flats and purse match the lilies, hydrangeas and clusters of jasmine she's buying.

<sic>

For more than a decade on every Saturday, the Branch Davidian Sabbath, Sheila Martin and Clive Doyle have gotten together to pray and discuss the Bible. They affirm to each other that David Koresh was God in the flesh. Then, they usually go to lunch or run errands.

<sic>

"We've come to expect that a lot of people are going to make us look nuthouse crazy," Doyle said, his voice changing to a spooky tone, his face dead-pan. "So, we always like it if we just seem a little crazy -- it's an improvement."

For some reason this really pisses me off. These idiots are so gullible that they believe that asshole is God to this day.
:wtf:

[Spider Jerusalem]

1. How many people think Joseph Smith was a prophet?

No different. There are just more Mormons.

[aquart]

15. And Christians. And Mohammedans.

Jews. however, all our important figures were massively flawed humans.

[boppers]

26. Well, aside from the whole "believing in God" thing.

Oh, and the "chosen people" thing is good for a giggle as well.

[aquart]

53. Well, if you know what "chosen" means...kinda.

The sacred bull was chosen for the sacrifice. The goat was chosen to be killed for the sins of the people. "Chosen" ain't the cheery choice.

[boppers]

130. "Couldn't you chose somebody else every once in a while?"

I hear ya.

[brewens]

16. There are more Mormons now that there were Christians for

hundreds of years. I always love Christians that trash Joseph Smith and call the Mormons a cult. I point that out to them because a lot tell themselves, that if so many believe it must be true. Christians were telling themselves that when they had fewer believers than the LDS has today.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

75. The whole Space Beings things Lost me.

They don't teach that until you drink the Kool-Aid, though, apparently. But I saw a special on it on the History Channel. It was hysterical.
Duckie

[franzia99]

81. There were space beings involved? Sounds like paranoid schizophrenia.

Bet some of his followers had that. Others were just vulnerable/impressionable.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

87. Scroll to the middle of this page...

http://friendlyatheist.com/2011/02/06/mormonism-the-cartoon/
It is entertaining and ridiculous.
On edit: Since I watched it the first time, it has been edited to say that while it is an accurate account of their beliefs, it is not shown to the youth groups as previously thought.
Duckie

[boppers]

132. "The whole Space Beings things...."

As compared to what locations, for other religions that believe in "Heaven", have?

Oh, wait, most Christians believe in Heaven. Mormons came up with another name for it, but same kind of thing.

[white_wolf]

2. I don't belive he was God at all, but

I also don't believe a lot of the charges against him. The ATF should never have been involved there and got a lot of people killed.

[Paradoxical]

4. ATF raided the compound and were fired upon.

They sat there for almost 2 months waiting for that douchebag to let this people go. Instead, he chose to let them die.

Sure, law enforcement botched the last attempt to end the stand-off. But there would have been no needed if Koresh had simply surrendered.

[Incitatus]

9. "waiting for that douchebag to let this people go."

Maybe I missed something. Was he holding them hostage at gunpoint? Was he forcing his people to stay there?

[Paradoxical]

10. They believed he was God. They would do whatever he tells them.

[white_wolf]

12. So? That is their belief.

Unless he orders them to harm themselves or others, or he himself is harming them, the government has no right to intervene. Members of the Mormon church believe that Thomas S. Monson is a "Prophet, Seer, and Revealator" and the more devout will likely do whatever he tells them. Should Monson be arrested and the Latter-Day-Saints church be closed?

[Paradoxical]

47. They intervened because they were stockpiling weapons.

It had nothing to do with their religion.

[WinkyDink]

60. I guess Clinton skipped that history lesson about how sieges work.

[Paradoxical]

62. I think Reno was looking for any reason to send in the troops.

The actions taken by the authorities were clearly misinformed and foolish.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

76. Dude walked to town every day alone.

Seems like they could have just watched him for a few days and then picked him up quietly instead of endangering the lives of innocent, extremely gullibly stupid people. :shrug:

[franzia99]

82. If I remember correctly they intervened over allegations of child sexual abuse

[franzia99]

83. If I remember correctly they intervened over allegations of child sexual abuse

[walldude]

108. Yup.. but I never heard anything else about that..

Only when they were justifying their attack.

The same media told me Saddam had WMD's.

I don't really know what went on there but it seems to me there were better ways of dealing with Koresh than killing children.

[Mariana]

119. I don't think you remember correctly.

It was the BATF that raided the place first. What does the BATF have to do with allegations of child sexual abuse? Nothing whatsoever. Those would be handled by the local authorities. That was not the reason for the inital raid.

[boppers]

133. Child abuse authorities were terrified of going in.

Something about stocking enough weapons and ammo up to take on the Federal Government.

Which is exactly what happened.

[madokie]

86. Why yes it should

I don't believe in a god or in an after life so save your scorn for me as it'll be like water on a ducks back

[white_wolf]

113. So much for the 1st Amendment.

[white_wolf]

11. Did they even want to leave?

I don't know.

[boppers]

28. Some actually fled.

Burning your followers to death is not exactly a great thing, but as with Jonestown, cult leaders tend to kill their followers, which tends to make people "volunteer" to stay.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

77. It is stay and burn or drink the Kool-Aid or get a bullet to the head...

How do people find themselves in that situation, much less with all of their kids. I don't know if you ever watched the special about Jonestown on the History Channel, but if you ever get a chance, check it out. You'll see that a lot of those people were seeing the light LONG before that whole thing happened. And while a few of those people drank the Kool-Aid without being forced, most of them did it at gunpoint. If they hadn't killed their babies, they would have just been gunned down as well. It is sickening how that happens to people who were once normal, rational people.
Duckie

[ZombieHorde]

114. "cult leaders tend to kill their followers"

Suicide/death cults are extremely rare. The vast majority of cults are peaceful. Overall, cults do less harm than major religions.

[boppers]

131. I suppose defining "cult" would be helpful.

Rituals that involve the eating of flesh from a dead space alien zombie sounds weird... but that's Christianity for ya. Then there's the whole chopping off sexual bits to please said space alien, folks who believe that consciousness exists outside of the mind, etc. etc. etc.

[Ter]

101. The ATF shouldn't exist

Abolish it, they are thugs anyway.

[seabeyond]

90. Vernon Howell got a lot of people killed. a criminal that refused to turn himself in

it is ALL on his shoulders.

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

3. Some people still think the South won... n/t

[JVS]

5. It's their right.

[Odin2005]

6. Religion is a mental illness.

[TroglodyteScholar]

17. +1 n/t

[napoleon_in_rags]

37. -1 nt

[Festivito]

74. And, many people zealously believe that, rather religiously ...

... faithful to that personal belief.

[cordelia]

88. Bullshit

[snooper2]

128. 1) Religion is a mental disorder (Watch this video for some explainations)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haBLjVqrrjM

Here's part 2 explaining---
(2) Religion is a parasitic belief complex

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qd0qFSMm7oo&feature=related

[Zax2me]

110. I'd like to see you post this in a non-Christian dominant country

And see what happens.
Really. Would be curious to see what the outcome would be say in a Muslim society.
The same as here? A couple of posts that don't agree - some Christians scream you are going to hell - or something more?
Could be a cool experiment.

[Odin2005]

118. In some parts of this country coming out as an Atheist or Wiccan can leasd to ostracism...

...harassment, and losing one's job. If the Religious Right had their way the US would be a Christian Iran.

[Mariana]

123. You already know what may well happen

if the poster did that, and you say you'd like to see it. "Really," you say. So, you're telling us that you WANT to see the poster be killed (by someone other than you, of course). You think it could be "cool". Because the poster said something you don't like. Have I got all that right? Did I miss anything?

I don't think what you've said here does very much to demonstrate that the poster is wrong.

[DefenseLawyer]

7. Whatever gets you through the night

They can worship Bert Convy for all I care.

[Zanzoobar]

8. 18 years is nothing when your kids are burned alive.

We argue about Viet Nam. We argue about WWII. We still argue about the Civil War and the Revolutionary War, and in general, all wars.

Those people lived it.

When would you expect their passions to be tamed?

When would you expect a true believer to wake up and take heed of your objective distance?

I'm not surprised by them at all.

[bananas]

18. You see the same thing with nuclear energy supporters

It's like a religion.
Even after Fukushima and Chernobyl, they still believe.
"Only Jesus can save us!"
"Only nuclear energy can save us!"

[Zanzoobar]

19. Same thing at Wounded Knee.

Only their god could save them.

Do you think they are angry? I wonder if they still believe.

It hardly matters.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

78. Are you talking about Custer or the Native Americans?

I may have to call BS on that regarding Native Americans. They weren't into religion. Yes, they had a spirit world with Ancestors who guided them, with a large regard for the Earth, but they were rational people with zero power. When they were attacked, they attacked back, and gave Custer the meeting with his Dear and Fluffy Lord he so desired.
Duckie

[fishwax]

100. I think you're thinking of Little Big Horn

The Wounded Knee massacre (as part of the so-called "Ghost Dance War," which was prompted by fear of the spreading Ghost Dance Movement) did have a religious component.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

111. Yep. My mistake...

[boppers]

30. You see the same thing with nuclear energy detractors.

It's like a religion.
Even after Fukushima and Chernobyl, they still believe.
"Only Jesus can save us!"
"Nuclear energy will destroy us!"

Reality tends to be harsh on people who believe in absolutes.

[bananas]

35. Good example of the twisted logic used by nuclear energy supporters.

Thanks for providing that example.

[CJvR]

43. But...

...praying to the God of fission, by switching stuff on, works!
From his temples an endless current of energy flows to the faithful as well as to the heretics and unbelivers. The God of fission doesn't discriminate.

Praying to Jebus will just leave you sitting in the dark in front of a dark computer screen.

[boppers]

134. The God of fission, however, isn't above a smiting every so often.

Not quite a global flood, but much less death than the crusades.

[WatsonT]

97. Wow.

That's a stretch.

[brewens]

13. I never call him anything but Vernon Howell, pedophile freak.

A few times I've sprung that one on right wingers. It's usually if they're talking about what should be done with a particular sex offender. I'll bring up that there was quite a bit of sympathy for that Howell guy that raped the 13 year old, and even got her pregnant. They of course don't realize who I'm talking about, and usually don't believe there was any sympathy for someone like that, and tell me he should be locked up for life or executed.
They get really pissed when I say something like, "you know the guy, people that believe he was really The Messiah call him David Koresh."

[napoleon_in_rags]

38. Too bad that 13 year old, and many other children were incinerated in the FIRE.

Generally if you suspect abuse of children, burning said children alive isn't the best way to deal with it.

[Paradoxical]

41. That's assuming law enforcement started the fire.

Which they most likely did not.

[napoleon_in_rags]

51. Yeah, they were just innocently knocking down walls of civilians with their tanks...

...when some irresponsible civilian started a fire by dropping his cigar.

FAIL. That's what the whole thing was, and honestly there's no wrapping it up as anything else at all.

[Paradoxical]

52. They used engineering tanks to puncture the outer walls to insert CS gas.

And they bulldozed surrounding fences that were in the way of potential raids.

They did not knock down walls on anyone. They did not start any fires. The fires started deep inside the building. Well outside the reach of any of the authorities on the outside.

[napoleon_in_rags]

54. Propaganda.

I remember reading an article in Time some years after the event, which stated that Koresh was a pervert and all of the children inside the compound were his. Then I went to a memorial site with pictures of the killed children, and I saw amongst them pure afro-american children and pure Asian children. Not mixes, but pure: Kids with two black parents, kids with two Asian parents, as clear as day. Koresh was white. I saw pictures on the web of greybeard government agents smiling while the building burned, memorial pictures they took for their records while children were being incinerated.

Engineering tanks??? Really? "Its okay sir, the walls of your house will be punctured by engineering tanks, not military tanks, so its all okay. Its not Orwellian at all". Come on, man. Please.

[Paradoxical]

55. My cross country coach for 4 years was a former reporter and was at Waco...

For literally the entire stand-off. He has more first hand experience with the events than almost anyone on Earth. He readily admits that the authorities acted foolishly, as do I. But he also made it perfectly clear that the accounts from the federal authorities are far more accurate than the conspiracy theory bullshit.

None of this is "Orwellian". The tanks that were used to pump CS gas into the building are called engineering tanks. That's not propaganda. That's literally what they are called.

The use of heavily armored vehicles and tanks were in direct response to threats made by the Davidians. They threatened to fire high powered rifles (including .50 caliber rifles) and use hand grenades against authorities.

[napoleon_in_rags]

56. Look man, something went wrong there. Something went terribly wrong.

I remember reading about the event on line, sites run by family members. I heard their stories, I saw the pictures of the kids lost there. I can tell you honestly I will NEVER forget the moment I picked up that issue of Time at the checkout stand at the grocery store and started to read. Before that I had trusted Time, and now I saw them complicit in putting out things that defied all logic, that just didn't add up if you were one of the people that investigated, but that would dismiss the whole thing to the majority that hadn't. Here was an American Tiananmen Square, and the treatment of it for the masses was the same whitewash that Chinese citizens could expect from their government. My heart started to beat faster because for the first time in my life I knew I was reading a government lie being perpetuated by a major media company. It wouldn't be the last.

I'm telling you that if you pay attention to the details the Waco situation was BS, citizens were murdered. You shouldn't find that shocking because its really trivial compared to what's happened since: I could send you rolls of pictures of dead innocents, many of them children, from Iraq. This war started because a lie perpetuated by the government and major media companies like Time Warner, about Saddam Hussein and yellow cake uranium, about his nuclear weapons program. Its now confirmed and totally understood that this program didn't exist, that hundreds of thousands were murdered by our government over nothing at all. The fact that given all this you have faith in the government story about Waco blows my mind.

[Paradoxical]

57. You just defeated your entire argument...

You used the Iraq war as evidence that the federal government lies. But you also openly admit that the truth was vindicated afterwards.

Well, investigations into Waco have been taking place for almost 2 decades and they still haven't been able to confirm any allegations that the authorities started the fires or fired the first shots. In fact, evidence shows quite the opposite. The Davidians fired on agents as they attempted to gain entry into the building. They then doused the building with combustible materials and started the fires themselves.

The fact that you are so easily had by conspiracy theory nonsense blows MY mind.

[brewens]

94. I watched the Waco hearings that were run by Republicans.

The Republicans tried their best to pin the fires on the Feds, but the Democrats on the committee did a great job. The Republicans didn't like it, but they didn't have to. What they did have to do was eat shit and face the facts! The Democrats forced them to admit that they understood the Dividians started the fires. That was shown in their final report, but totally ignored by the right and the conspiracy theorists.
It's just like the rights reaction to the 9/11 committee investigation. That showed they had all the tips and info they could possibly asked for to realize something was up and head it off. If the Bush administration was competent and had done their jobs 9/11 would never have happened. The reaction of the right is to totally ignore findings they don't agree with, so we might as well not even have these investigations. Instead they'll tell you Bush kept us safe!

[napoleon_in_rags]

126. The no WMD truth was found because people really pushed.

Promise, if people hadn't fought so hard we'd still be thanking Bush for saving us from them. Did anybody try so hard in Waco?

I didn't say the government started the fires, I don't know. But what I do know is that the BEST case scenario way of looking at is as a hostage situation where a bunch of kids got burned to death. People should be looking at a failed hostage situation with a pile of dead kids as a tragedy, but all I read is whitewash claiming all the kids were Koreshes, or this OP talking about what "idiots" they were, people celebrating an epic failure.

[seabeyond]

89. what went terribly wrong is you had a criminal that refused to turn himself in.

it ended getting a lot of people killed.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

79. I remember watching that on TV the whole time.

You're correct. And they screwed up, but the conspiracy theories are trash and the federal authorities were far more accurate, that is correct.
Duckie

[Odin2005]

106. LOL, Free Republic is over there, you can defend those Davidian wackos to your heart's content.

:puke:

[napoleon_in_rags]

127. IS there a place for Democrats who aren't schizophrenic?

Who dread authoritarian overreach whether it occurs during a Republican administration (warrantless wiretaps) as well as a Democratic one (whitewashing Waco)

[Ter]

102. The fire was caused by the US government

Perhaps not on purpose, but likely from firing upon the compound, hitting ammunition piles.

[Paladin]

109. Prove It. (N/T)

[Nevernose]

120. I'm sure the Davidians soaking the place in kerosene

...had nothing at all to do with the fire, right?

[WinkyDink]

61. That's what I call Mohammed, minus the "Vernon Powell."

[YellowRubberDuckie]

80. Mohammed's message has been perverted in the centuries since his death.

His message was quite clear and peaceful, but yes, based on a higher power. He actually wasn't a terrible guy. It's just when his message gets into the hands of power hungry idiot religious zealots it tends to get turned into this drivel that has people blowing himself up. :shrug:

[Rage for Order]

14. Koresh wasn't God, but the federal government did murder a lot of people in Waco n/t

[brewens]

20. The government made Howells goons torch the building?

Arson investigators found that they started it themselves simultaneously in three different places.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/topten2.html#started

[Rage for Order]

22. And the FBI did not use any incendiary devices, either

Wait a minute...yes they did, but they lied about it for 6 years. It's not a stretch to think the government agents weren't entirely honest about other parts of their investigation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_siege#Investigation_and_the_Danforth_Report

Between 1993 and 1999, FBI spokesmen denied (even under oath) the use of any sort of pyrotechnic devices during the assault; however, pyrotechnic Flite-Rite CS gas grenades had been found in the rubble immediately following the fire. In 1999, FBI spokesmen were forced to admit that they had used the grenades, however they claimed that these devices, which dispense CS gas through an internal burning process, had been used during an early morning attempt to penetrate a covered, water-filled construction pit 40 yards away, and were not fired into the building itself. According to FBI claims, the fires started approximately three hours after the grenades had been fired. When the FBI's documents were turned over to Congress for an investigation in 1994, the page listing the use of the pyrotechnic devices was missing. The failure for six years to disclose the use of pyrotechnics despite her specific directive led Reno to demand an investigation. A senior FBI official told Newsweek that as many as 100 FBI agents had known about the use of pyrotechnics, but no one spoke up until 1999.

[Teaser]

23. that something is not a stretch ! = there is evidence for it.

.

[Rage for Order]

24. The enitre site was bulldozed by authorities 2 weeks after the siege ended

Why would they do that to a crime scene? Pieces of evidence "lost", conflicting testimony, factually inaccurate statements...the government undermined their own credibility. Based on the history of federal law enforcement I find it difficult to give them the benefit of the doubt.

[Paradoxical]

50. Undermining credibility does not imply guilt.

Seriously, what you are saying is absurd. The federal and local authorities definitely did a terrible job of ending the crisis and most certainly damaged the crime scene.

But that does not mean they are at fault for the fires. And in fact even after the FBI admitted to using pyrotechnic CS canisters, at least one investigation found that they were used hours before the fires began in a separate area of the site.

[Rage for Order]

103. People lie and destory evidence because...why, exactly?

The crime scene wasn't "damaged", it was eliminated. I don't think the government set the fires, but I do think they mishandled the situation badly. The government should have waited for them to run out of food and water; most of the people would have surrendered given enough time.

[boppers]

32. If guns are also a pyrotechnic device, sure.

I mean, they heat up and emit sparks, too!

Of course, dousing your space with fuel and then daring other people to start a fire is pretty dumb, so, there's that.

[brewens]

34. Referring to those CS canisters as incendiary devices does not

make them fire bombs. It's possible they can start a fire but they are not designed to. Dousing fuel all over the place is designed to start a fire though.
I remember one guy claimed that he ran out of there under fire from Delta Force snipers. Yeah right. Like they would have just missed him if that were true.

[Paradoxical]

42. CS gas canisters are not incendiary devices.

[SkyDaddy7]

68. They said the same thing about Jesus 2000yrs ago! LOL! nt.

[Paradoxical]

70. And 2000 years later they're still right.

[SkyDaddy7]

124. EXACTLY! nt.

[conspirator]

71. I agree. The federal government does not like people living off the grid

it sets a bad example to the masses.

[seabeyond]

91. Vernon Howell killed a lot of people. nt

[white_wolf]

21. Oh, and I can so top this with another crazy cult believer .

I give you, Heaven's Gate, the sequel: http://www.laweekly.com/2007-03-22/news/heaven-s-gate-the-sequel/

[Historic NY]

25. He hasn't come back has he?

[Zanzoobar]

27. Now you've done it. Expect him in 72 hours.

[Historic NY]

31. Oh crap.......

:scared:

i actually remember watching the compound burning live on the news......while trying to have dinner at a hometown type bar/restaurant.

[PurityOfEssence]

29. Hmmm...maybe Nietzsche was right after all...

as a doornail.

[BillyJack]

33. Impossible to make a comment on a truly IMPOSSIBLE/ILLOGICAL situation/premise. n/t

[mrcheerful]

36. What always cracks me up about Waco is the people who claim the D's messed it up but

reality is if it had happened when R's in power you can bet your last dollar that they would not have wasted almost 2 months before going in nor would there be an out cry of those poor innocent people inside the compound, it would have been they were criminals they got what they deserved end of story. Really strange that you would find posts on DU claiming the D's intended to burn them out when reality was those inside dosed the building with fuel so the first spark would set the place ablaze. I watched it while it unfolded, first the tank broke a hole in a wall, smoke started bellowing out and whoosh in less then 10 minutes it was a flaming infernal. To blame the D's or law enforcement for what happened while excusing those who were inside is non sense, they should have taken their day in court.

[astral]

39. Don't assume you know the truth about that nightmare.

These people were living a communal lifestyle which pissed off the government. There was no reason all those innocent people and children had to die. It is sick to start this topic up in this manner.

[mrcheerful]

44. Yeah right tell that to someone who didn't witness Kent State or the attack on the

Black Panthers or many of the other things that happened during the Nixon era. To say those people who fired the first shots that lead up to their demise are innocent is sad. Unlike the students at Kent State the Waco whackos were very well armed, the problem was they didn't care enough about their kids to get them out of harms way, in fact they were hiding behind kids hoping the police would just go away. Sorry but the Waco whackos were nothing more then a group of criminals who thought they were above the law. BTW, it was Oxy Boy Rush that first started blaming the Clinton white house for the Waco mess and who do you think ate up every word Oxy boy said about it, thats right the future tea baggers.

[Paradoxical]

46. ..." a communal lifestyle which pissed off the government." - Uh no. Stock piling weapons...

tipped off the federal authorities. They attempted to raid the compound and were fired upon.

[mrcheerful]

48. Funny how 18 years later you find people on DU defending the Waco Whackos isn't it

[Paradoxical]

49. I think every adult who was at the compound should be in prison.

These assholes who walk around preaching how that piece of shit is God should be rotting in a jail cell.

The only human beings I feel bad for are the kids.

[napoleon_in_rags]

40. You're totally wrong. This is what started the grass roots Tea Party.

If R's were in charge they would have been ruined with their own base. Let me be clear, Clinton was NOT responsible, it was lower level actors, but this set off the right in a big way. You have a religious guy investigated for gun ownership, resisting and the whole thing ending up with military tanks being used against US citizens, and numerous men women and children being burned alive in a raid. It was the paragon of everything the anti-big government right warns against. The result of it was that overnight a fringe movement once considered paranoid weirdos moved into the main stream.

[seabeyond]

93. ya... cause our govt should allow raping of children. that man has his rights. nt

[Mariana]

125. They weren't raided because of child rape.

The BATF did the initial raid, and the BATF doesn't and didn't have anything to do with child abuse cases. If child abuse and/or child rape had been reported, it was up to the locals to investigate and prosecute, not the feds and certainly the BATF wouldn't be involved in that.

What a mess that whole thing was, WTF is wrong with people that they make some loon in Waco, Texas their God?

[WinkyDink]

64. You weren't the only one to watch it, you know. TV is only from certain angles.

[seabeyond]

92. i watched authorities do everything to ensure lives. and people pretend they didnt

pisses me off

[athenasatanjesus]

45. Does that make Janet Reno Supergod? nt

[WinkyDink]

58. I'm apt to give parents of murdered children a break.

[Paradoxical]

59. They would be alive if it weren't for the actions of their parents.

[WinkyDink]

63. Right. Sure. The ATF knew Koresh's jogging routine; they could've arrested him at any time.

Kent State. Jackson State. The burning of the SLA house, while NOT knowing if Patty "Tania" Hearst was inside or not. Ruby Ridge. Waco.

[Paradoxical]

66. They attempted to serve warrants on the compound and it's occupants.

The occupants fired at the agents.

No doubt about it, the authorities handled the situation poorly and completely misunderstood the nature of the cult and it's followers.

But it was ultimately the Davidians who took it upon themselves to fire on federal law enforcement officials. And it was the Davidians who refused to leave the compound after weeks of isolation. And it was the Davidians who murdered many of the children with bullets and knives. And it was the Davidians who set the compound on fire.

[Gravel Democrat]

72. "it was the Davidians who murdered many of the children with bullets and knives." Source?

>>And it was the Davidians who set the compound on fire.

That is possible. It is also possibly a lie:

"...FBI also delivered 40mm CS grenade fire from grenade launchers; very early in the morning, the FBI fired two military M651 rounds at the Davidian construction site. About mid-morning the FBI began to run low on 40mm Ferret CS rounds and asked Texas Ranger Captain David Byrnes for tear gas rounds; the tear gas rounds procured from Company "F" in Waco turned out to be unusable pyrotechnic rounds and were returned to the Company "F" office after the fire.<54> 40mm munitions recovered by the Texas Rangers at Waco included dozens of plastic Ferret Model SGA-400 Liquid CS rounds, two metal M651E1 military pyrotechnic teargas rounds, two metal NICO Pyrotechnik Sound & Flash grenades and parachute illumination flares.<54><55>

After more than six hours no Davidians had left the building, sheltering instead in a cinder block room within the building or using gas masks.<56> The official FBI claim is that CEVs were used to punch large holes in the building to provide exits for those inside.

A propane tank explodes

At around noon, three fires broke out almost simultaneously in different parts of the building. The government maintains the fires were deliberately started by Davidians.<19><57> Davidian survivors maintain the fires were accidentally or deliberately started by the tank assault.<58><59> As the fire spread, Davidians were prevented from escaping; others refused to leave and eventually became trapped. In all, only nine people left the building during the fire.<19><57>..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_Siege

Wikipedia may not be always accurate but the footnotes are invaluable.

Furthermore, if the US Government had never lied, or took responsibility for even some of the lies that it has told, perhaps it would be easier to believe them. But their record speaks for itself. Never believe the Government without independent confirmation. For Christs Sake, is it not clear by now?

[Paradoxical]

73. Source? uh here you go...

http://www.cesnur.org/testi/DanforthRpt.pdf

(i) Autopsy/Pathology Results. Autopsy reports and anthropological work support the conclusion that those Davidians who died of gunshot wounds were killed by other Davidians, not by the government. The 1993 pathology studies concluded that at least 20 Davidians26 were shot and one was stabbed27 on April 19. According to the anthropological work, five of the victims were children under the age of 14. The 1993 studies indicated that many of those who died of gunshot injuries wereshot in the head or mouth, which is consistent with suicide or execution by the Davidians. Furthermore, information provided to the Office of Special Counsel by those who conducted the 1993 studies indicates that none of the Davidians was shot with a high velocity round28 on April 19, which would be expected had they been shot from outside of the complex by government sniper rifles or other assault weapons.
The Office of Special Counsel tested these conclusions thoroughly. While the bodies of the deceased Davidians are no longer available to be examined, the Office of Special Counsel did retain a forensic pathologist with specific expertise in gunfire deaths to conduct a thorough review of the 1993 autopsy reports, the extensive photographic and X-ray record from the initial pathology studies, the DNA findings, and the anthropological work of the Smithsonian Institution on the Davidians’ remains. The Office of Special Counsel also interviewed the members of the 1993 pathology team. Based upon this expert analysis and interviews with the original pathology team and the anthropologists from the Smithsonian Institution, the Office of Special Counsel has confirmed that 20 Davidians died of gunshot wounds on April 19. While it is impossible to determine what type of round killed some of the victims, several of the Davidians who died on April 19 had residual evidence indicating that they had been shot with low velocity rounds, either within inches of or in contact with their heads. None of the Davidians who died on April 19 displayed evidence of having been struck by a high velocity round.

As for the fire, the government was very clearly using engineering tanks to puncture holes in the walls of the compound so that they could pump in CS gas. The only pyrotechnic canister rounds used were set off a full 3 hours before the fires started.

[WatsonT]

98. Not if they had a hand in it.

[SkyDaddy7]

65. The True Power of Religion...

Who knows the Branch Dividians could be a world power 500yrs from now & Koresh the new Jesus! The stories are very similiar & it is the believers who write the history so who knows.

[cali]

67. I can think of a damned good reason why

it's gotta be easier to believe that your kids died because God wanted them to then to believe you were duped by a skeezy con man

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

69. As my father said at the time...

"The feds only mistake was not calling in an airstrike on March 1st"

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[franzia99]

84. No use being pissed off. Koresh must've been schizophrenic. Lots of his followers were probably

mentally ill as well or very vulnerable for other reasons. For a lot of them I bet there's no point being pissed at them. Mentally ill people can't help being mentally ill.

[ZombieHorde]

115. There is no evidence cult members are mentally ill.

Religious people seem crazy, but they are usually sane.

[kentuck]

95. "God is such an over-whelming responsibility"

Jethro Tull

[Motown_Johnny]

96. can God create a responsibility that over-whelms even him?

Me

[kentuck]

104. Of course.

God can do anything. :-)

[Motown_Johnny]

112. then wouldn't God be able to handle that responsibility?

[tabasco]

99. Truly stupid people.

'nuff said.

[bvar22]

105. After 30 years of empirical evidence to the contrary,

...the Leadership of the Democratic Party still believes in a Giant Invisible Hand.
.
.
And some people say the Democrats are Anti-Religion.


All HAIL the Invisible Hand!!!
The Giant Invisible Hand will save us ALL!
We Must NOT make the Giant Invisible Hand Angry!
We MUST sacrifice the Working Class.
The Invisible Hand DEMANDS it!
All Hail the Giant Invisible Hand!!!

[Odin2005]

107. Good God, WTF are people here doing defending the Koresh lunatics?

They were insane RW lunatics and the Extremist Right were using them as an example of "Evil Gummit" throughout the rest of the 90s.

[seabeyond]

116. i am wondering, too. i just asked hubby what he thought, cause i was surprised

by this thread.

hubby asks... why are you asking me that? wanting an answer? pretty obvious kerish dude responsible.

i thought i was in wonderland or something

[Canuckistanian]

117. Beats me

Koresh was a nutcase who torched his own people.

[Forkboy]

121. It was a clusterfuck all around.

If you want to extrapolate that into me being a Koresh defender you can, but that's an awfully simplistic breakdown. A lot of people think the thing could have been handled differently, yet have no love for Koresh. You're smart enough to know this. :shrug:

[MadHound]

122. Well, hey, billions and billions through the years believed a bastard carpenter's son is God as well

I mean really now, religion, be it Christianity, Islam, or Branch Davidians, at some point require some pretty insane leaps of faith and serious suspension of logic and critical thinking skills.

To this day however, no matter how nuts the Davidians may or may not have been, I believe that the government directly engaged in pointless murder, provoking Koresh for no good reason, and killing innocent people needlessly.

But now we've got to paint the survivors as nuts in order to obscure the blood on the hands of the Clinton government.

[howard112211]

135. Indeed. This is in no way more nuts than saying Jesus was the son of god.

[snooper2]

129. If there was just 1 christian alive, we would all think he was crazy

Not just crazy, but completely fucking insane-

This guy actually believes that a magic man, born from a virgin, walked around the Middle East turning water into wine and other performing other magic acts. And it gets worse, his dad, who is god- who is also him, wrote a book that tells us what to do. A there's something about a talking snake in there too.

See Link :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haBLjVqrrjM