Smokers Vs. Drinkers

[boston bean]

In your personal life which has more negatively affected you both physically and emotionally?

[Earth_First]

1. A smoker just took out a mailbox, a hedgerow, and a telephone pole in our neighborhood...

:sarcasm:

[boston bean]

2. I know many more drinkers than smokers.

Just so happens to be the some of the ones who drink regularly are anti smoking.

I find it funny. They are drinking in front of their kids almost every weekend.

Socializing with alcohol all the time, but if someone lights up a smoke, they look at them like the devil incarnate just arrived.

Then they get in the car and drive home.

[blueamy66]

46. at least drinkers don't smell like ashtrays

I swear, my boss STINKS TO HIGH HEAVEN!

[boston bean]

49. no they smell like stale booze or booze covered up by breath mints. nt

[blueamy66]

57. Really?

All of them?

Cause ALL of smokers smell like stale tobacco....all the time....

I've never had to wash my jacket or take a shower after leaving a bar cause it smelled like vodka...but smoke......every fucking time

[boston bean]

68. if your someone like me who doesn't visit a bar your clothes can stick of booze to

others whose nose might be more sensitive to it.

But I think you know I am talking about their breath, as well.

Yeah and it's offensive. Believe me your booze breath is offensive.

[blueamy66]

73. It's nothing like a smoker's smell.

Shit, when my boss walks by our office, my co-worker and I bring out the Lysol and spray away. He effing stinks.

But hey, one can smoke during work hours but cannot drink.....there's a thought...it's okay to be high on nicotine at work and not alcohol.

[boston bean]

76. booze effing stinks. many people do drink during work and lunch hour

Coffee breath also stinks, and people are high on caffeine all the time too,

Let's ban it ALL!!!

[blueamy66]

88. Yes, let's....at work

sounds like a plan

BUT, can you smell alcohol and coffee on a person as they walk past your office? I think not. You can sure smell cigarette smoke when a person walks by your office.

Hey, smoke away.....what do I care....just do do it where I have to smell you.

[boston bean]

89. I can smell a bunch of different things at work, many which disgust me.

body odor
booze
certain foods
people's breath

just to name a few.

However I deal with it and mind my own fucking business.

[Warren DeMontague]

If you're a smoker

you're probably not even smelling 10% of what's actually around you.

[boston bean]

106. you don't know me and what I can and cannot smell and what makes me sick to my stomach to smell or

not.

Boy you certainly are a know it all, aren't you?

[Warren DeMontague]

110. I know the physiological effects of smoking

and yeah, if you're doing it regularly, it's dulling your sense of smell. Unless you're one of the magic smokers who is immune to the known ill effects of the things.

[boston bean]

117. Again, you don't know me, so don't assume anything about me.

You come to your own conclusion that I am a smoker and have a nose that doesn't work.

You really need to stop being so judgmental.

I happen to be a person who believes in personal liberty.

Most people don't want to think about their drinking, even if it's only social, because they do it themselves. But love to take away the rights of others

As a whole in society, alcohol offers no positives and many of the same negatives as smoking.

Well, mr. demontague, my parent died of his choice, alcoholism. your pain is no greater than mine and holds no more weight in this conversation.

[Warren DeMontague]

151. yeah, right. You're not a smoker.

Right.

I believe in personal liberty, too. Absolutely; but personal liberty doesn't exempt smokers (and drinkers) from regulations on WHERE they can exercise that liberty. And if you're upset because society frowns upon smoking more than it used to, sorry, can't help you there either.

[boston bean]

155. you are one presumptuous holier than thou know it all, you should have been a preacher

[JVS]

158. You call him that after starting a poll and then contradicting and chiding everyone who doesn't...

vote the way that you see it. That's some chutzpa.

[boston bean]

166. I am not the one who is contradicting or chiding. I am trying to

prove a point, that is all.

As the poll proves, most have been more personally affected physically and emotionally from a drinker v a smoker.

I wonder why smoking gets the bad rap and alcohol pretty much gets a free pass.

Is it because all those drinkers don't want their rights infringed upon?

I am sick and tired of the disgusting treatment smokers have to put up with when an equally deadly drug pretty much gets a free pass. Even if one isn't abusing alcohol, their breath still stinks, I'm sure many are driving after drinking and probably have some health risks and have to take time off of work.

All the things one would like to point to about smoking can be said about alcohol.

And then people gets insulted when you tell them their breath smells like booze and that they shouldn't drink and that some people find all alcohol offensive.

HUH not them, they are perfect people!!

[JVS]

168. Yes you are. Look at your behavior in the thread. You've dismissed many people's experience.

[boston bean]

169. No I have not, I understand what they are saying. However they dont' seem to have

the same full throated disgust with alcohol.

It's hypocritical. I suggest you read the thread. Including re-reading your posts to me.

[JVS]

171. Yes you have. Look over the thread.

[Warren DeMontague]

164. It's not about me, and it's not about you.

Once you figure that out, you might start to get a handle on this issue.

[boston bean]

167. What is about me, your holier than though holy rolling anti smoking agenda? nt

[Warren DeMontague]

204. Now you're just babbling.

Are you still trying to claim that you're "not a smoker", too?

Clearly, you've got a serious axe to grind, here. Give it a rest.

[boston bean]

212. I have claimed nothing, although you have. You know more about me than I do.

I suggest if you don't like the axe I am grinding that you give a rest.

[Mulhane]

226. Personal Liberty a joke

I would like to consume another weed that does far less damage than either booze or tobacco, without the pungent after-effects of cigarrette smoking. It is even medicinal for pain and anxiety, but corporate rule denies me this liberty.

[blueamy66]

132. So, when someone's odor, of any kind, affects your health, you

"just mind your own business"?

Goody for you.

[boston bean]

134. Oh, did i miss the part where you told me the smell was affecting your health?

I thought it was just your senses that were offended..

And did you miss the posts where I told you I got the shit beat out of me numerous times by an alcoholic?

[blueamy66]

211. Why did you stay with the "alcoholic" that beat the shit

out of you numerous times?

[boston bean]

213. Ah honey, I was a child and didn't have much choice!

put that in your judging glass and drink it!

[blueamy66]

222. ok

can I add vodka?

[sabrina 1]

130. If you drink, you smell. And you still smell in the morning

after a night out drinking in the bar.

And yes, people who do not drink, can smell you a mile away, no matter how much gum you chew or how much perfume you use to try to hide it.

And people who drink are often nasty, belligerent and are responsible for much of the domestic abuse in this country.

I would prefer any day to live with a smoker than with a drinker. I never heard of smoker after a having a few cigarettes, beating up his wife and kids.

[blueamy66]

131. And that would be your opinion.

And I have mine.

Cigarette smokers STINK.

And I have heard of many cigarette smokers beating up their spouses. I'm sure it's because of the nicotine in their systems.

Wow, you're really reaching here aren't you?

[Bunny]

133. well, I'm sure you know someone who drinks and beats up his spouse/SO.

But do you really know someone who lights up and then beats up his spouse because of nicotine in their system? Drinkers stink, smokers stink. Why are you arguing that it's only smokers? :shrug:

[blueamy66]

209. I'm not.

I'm just arguing back and forth.

Don't like the smell of cig smoke.....having some fun.....

[sabrina 1]

143. And drinkers STINK. I guess you don't like that fact,

but sorry, it's true.

I'm :rofl: at your claim of tobabcco being related to domestic violence. I just did a search and could find nothing to back up that claim.

But Alcohol and Drug abuse have been related to violence, domestic and otherwise.

Talk about 'reaching'!

[blueamy66]

224. It was a joke

get it?

[sabrina 1]

147. Dupe n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

193. Nicotine makes smokers beat up their wives?!

You didn't really say that, did you? Cause it's probably one of the most ridiculous things I have ever seen not just here, but anywhere on the internet.

[blueamy66]

210. See my other post.

Smokers STINK.

That is my point.

[proud2BlibKansan]

221. What does that have to do with wife beating?

People who stink are more likely to beat up their spouses? I thought it was the nicotine?

[blueamy66]

208. How about someone that smokes and has a mental problem?

Geebus.....you're really stretching here.....

[boston bean]

217. how about someone that drinks and has a mental problem?

[sabrina 1]

129. All drinkers stink of alcohol. But they don't know it

But those who are not drinking can smell them a mile away.

Bars stink to anyone who doesn't drink.

Stale alcohol smell is disgusting.

[Jack Sprat]

119. At least ashtrays don't smell like drunkards. n/t

[onehandle]

30. Lighting up while driving can be distracting.

Not :sarcasm:

[anneboleyn]

50. snort. Seriously. Those reckless smokers!

[ddeclue]

126. when he dropped his butt and looked for it instead of watching the road..

it happens..

:P

[JVS]

149. don't forget forest fires

[Renew Deal]

184. This thread does not disappoint

:popcorn:

[proud2BlibKansan]

188. A co-worker's daughter was killed when she went out to get the mail

She was 7 years old. She went to get the mail in the box at the end of their driveway and a drunk policeman came around the corner and hit her. The really tragic thing is that he had been at a funeral that day for another police officer who had been killed by a drunk driver. After the funeral, he and a few other officers had a few drinks.

Saddest funeral I have ever been to. Never ever want to do that again.

[Capn Sunshine]

190. The guy might have been drinking, but he was trying to light up while driving.

I hate when you wake up because your bed is on fire, go out to the car and see one of those damn tricycles embedded in the grill

[baldguy]

3. Both, but in different ways.

[boston bean]

4. I can say without a doubt that a drinker has harmed me.

beat the shit out of me on more than one occasion.

[babydollhead]

56. i'm sorry that happened to you

[DireStrike]

5. I guess smokers?

Both my parents second-hand smoked the shit out of me in our apartment growing up. If I get lung cancer I know where to look.

One time a drunk driver had a head-on collision with a bus that I was taking, which made me late for work. But it was a crappy boring meeting so on the whole it was a positive for me.

[boston bean]

7. You don't have lung cancer do you?

You could get it, not saying that you couldn't.

Do you drink?

[DireStrike]

175. Nope, no lung cancer.

Yep, I do drink. I am probably far more likely to get a liver condition or stumble onto the train tracks than to get lung cancer. Especially since both my parents quit.

But the question was about which type of people have caused more harm to me.

I was trying to convey that neither has caused appreciable harm to me, and in fact this is a stupid question.

[Maine-ah]

6. I have had too many friends and family

killed or harmed by drunk drivers.

[boston bean]

8. people say they don't drink and drive, but they do, oh yes they do

and they just don't get caught.

I think that is worse than flicking a butt out the window.

[babydollhead]

59. me too. very good friends

[Uben]

9. I can't tolerate drunks and I have an anger problem...

..so I just beat the shit outta them. Bottoms up!

[boston bean]

10. Do you know more drinkers in your life than smokers?

[Uben]

12. Not any more!

Attrition!

[boston bean]

13. I'm gonna

LOL

[seabeyond]

11. having alcoholics that die from alcohol and all the abusive behavior to so many that love them

i find this poll amazing that it is even a question.

if anyone hits smoking over alcohol, then they dont live a life with alcoholics.

[boston bean]

14. more like they don't want to see their own hypocrisy.

See they tip some a few times a week, so it's ok.

And NO, I don't think alcohol should be banned.

[seabeyond]

17. i have a line in my family of alcoholics. the really hard, out of control type that die from booze

and they make life hell for everyone who loves them. sober, oh sorry, i love you, do you love me.... yada yada. drunk.... mean ugly son of bitches. narcissitic. self centered and selfish. a horrible life. and for everyone around.

i can handle discipline for kids with about everything. pot, i can do. but alcohol, i told hubby if either boys comes home with booze on breath, he needs to handle it, cause i wont be reasonable.

[boston bean]

18. I too have lived a life surrounded by people with alcohol and drug addictions.

It's a killer.

A killer of the soul, not just of the person doing the drinking, but everyone around them.

It harms families, children and sometimes strangers.

They kill themselves over time as well. Hurting everyone along the way.

They are probably millions more alcoholics in this country vs smokers, but people drink alcohol without batting an eye.

[seabeyond]

20. yup.... nt

[muriel_volestrangler]

25. No, no hypocrisy needed, just, as seabeyond says, not knowing alcoholics

and not knowing anyone who has been abused by one, or hit by one in a car. Which is the case with me. A couple of friends have been punched by people in bars, which may have been caused by alcohol; but, against that, my father had a heart attack in his fifties, which may have been caused by his smoking (he then gave up, and has gone nearly another 30 years without another attack), and I'd say that's more serious, so I think smoking has affected me more.

[boston bean]

28. so, I guess muriel that the point I am trying to make

is just your point.

We all have experiences, but no one would ever think to ban alcohol. Even though millions upon millions of peoples lives have been affected negatively by alcohol. Beatings, accidents, emotional pain and harm, physical harm to themselves and others.

Yet, we do not see the wrath to those facts, that we see with the anti smoking crowd to smokers.

It's hypocritical.

I suppose it's because they think they are drinking responsibly and feel there are healthy benefits in drinking it for them and it's legal.

And they would never want their right to drink it taken away.

It's hypocritical.

[muriel_volestrangler]

36. well, that's a new 'it' that you've introduced; not what your OP or seabeyond's reply was about

The 'it' then, that you called "more like they don't want to see their own hypocrisy", was answering 'smoking' to your poll.

Now, you're talking about a ban on smoking, versus a ban on alcohol. You shouldn't try and change the question half-way through your own thread.

[boston bean]

38. sorry muriel

there have been many threads about it. your point is taken, but I still don't think it takes away from the point I made.

do you have any comment to that?

[Hawkowl]

45. Drinkers don't force their drinks down me

Smokers often force their second hand smoke into my face. As more laws restrict smoking, this happens less and less. I have no problem with people smoking in their homes or in isolated smoking lounges.

As for health effects, I believe in the right to die. Kill yourself anyway you wish.

[boston bean]

48. True, but drunk drivers force accidents on innocents. Also, it ruins their families.

And it can kill themselves and others in a variety or ways.

[Warren DeMontague]

96. And drunk driving is a crime.

As it should be.

[boston bean]

105. Is ruining your family a crime, killing them emotionally, no it is not.

you pretty much claim that is what happened to you because your father died of lung cancer.

However you can't seem to perform a simple extrapolation exercise.

[Warren DeMontague]

115. No, I claimed I watched my dad die of lung cancer, and that it's a horrible way to die.

That's what I said.

Alcoholism is terrible, too. I never said it wasn't.

[boston bean]

120. keep missing the point...

should we ban alcohol in restaurants.

you know I would love to take my kid to a place where I could enjoy a nice meal without alcohol around me.

And just go out with the hubby where there was no alcohol.

Aint going to happen though.

And all those people drinking, well most are driving themselves home.

And then you have the ones who can't handle it and are obnoxious pieces of shit.

Then you have people who can't stop themselves from drinking and kill themselves, families and innocents.

See what I'm getting at here? It's not some pity pot.

We don't judge alcohol the way smoking is judged in society, why not?

It's not a taboo, even though it kills.

[Warren DeMontague]

156. There are plenty of restaurants that don't serve alcohol.

I don't drink OR smoke, but I can sure as fuck tell the qualitative difference between sitting next to a table with some guy w/ a beer, and someone smoking. Unless you're HEAVILY in denial, I suspect you can too. Don't be facile.

As for 'society judges smokers'; yeah, a majority of people have figured out that it is a vile, unhealthy habit. Society frowns on drunks and drunk drivers, too.

[boston bean]

162. drinking is a vile unhealthy habit. please prove my point some more...

which restaurants, Mcdonalds and Burger King?

[Warren DeMontague]

206. Here's an idea: Don't drink OR smoke.

Then get some exercise, I mean exercise beyond grinding whatever giant friggin' axe you woke up with this week.

[boston bean]

214. I don't find it necessary to control people's behavior.

And isn't it hilarious how upset people get when you talk about alcohol like people talk about smoking.

FUNNY!

They don't like it. hmmmmmmm...why?

[Warren DeMontague]

231. You keep changing the subject.

Like I said. Here's an idea: Don't drink OR smoke. You will survive.

I don't do either. I also have no interest in controlling anyone's behavior. That said, I certainly don't want smokers blowing that carcinogenic crap in my face or my kids' faces, and I don't want drinkers barfing in my lap.

But "don't drink OR smoke" is just a friendly suggestion. Isn't it funny how people freak the fuck out when you mildly suggest that they address their addiction?

[anneboleyn]

51. Alcoholics ruin lives -- their own, children, partners, innocents.

People who have lived with drunks will tell you that few things are worse as far as the evil nature of the problem is concerned. Many drinkers tend to be vicious when they are drunk, and they ruin the lives of their family members, not to mention the innocents killed in drunk driving accidents or any of the other accidents they cause.

[sabrina 1]

150. Then you don't live with a drinker, nor have you lost anyone

to a drunken driver, nor seen your friends have their children and themselves abused by a drinker.

I'll take smokers anytime over drinkers.

Which only goes to show that if we all got our way about the things that bother us, everything would be illegal.

Which is why I am against all these laws and think people should just learn that they are not the center of the universe and can't have things their way all the time.

[Adsos Letter]

81. "We all have experiences, but no one would ever think to ban alcohol."

"Even though millions upon millions of peoples lives have been affected negatively by alcohol. Beatings, accidents, emotional pain and harm, physical harm to themselves and others."

Of course they have, with the 18th Amendment, and the prohibitionists used the same valid descriptors of alcohol's potential to destroy. It didn't work, and fed money into organized crime via bootlegging, etc. People will have their vices. And I suspect you don't really need a history lesson on this subject.

Your point is well taken regarding the comparative effects of alcohol; my mom drank herself to death by the age of 50, and had destroyed her health long before that. The scars from her alcoholism on our family remain over 30 years after her death. Some of those wounds remain quite open.

Alcoholism sucks for everyone involved.

[boston bean]

82. I am aware of the prohibition era. but speaking today, we would not consider it.

however we do consider it for smoking.

[Adsos Letter]

85. We have a great deal of tunnel vision...

we wouldn't consider it today because it obviously did not work before; however, it doesn't seem to stop us from trying the same thing with tobacco, marijuana, etc.

For the record: I have zero problem regulating where smoking can take place (no enclosed public venues; the immediate vicinity of kids). In the same way I have zero problem with regulating the legal use of marijuana (age restriction).

[boston bean]

90. it's the downright nasty judgmental bs of anti smokers who prolly drink a 1/5 every other day

who rub me the wrong way.

[Arugula Latte]

139. With strangers, though, you're much more likely to be affected by smokers

It's literally in your face. I freaking HATE walking through a cloud of smoke to get in a store or something. It reeks, it's harmful to my lungs, it literally turns my stomach.

Alcohol, yes, affects strangers, and can affect them quite severely (drunk driving crashes, etc.). However, unless you routinely get into bar fights with drunks, strangers drinking alcohol is not as likely to be a frequent annoyance factor as strangers who smoke and subject you to their stinking habit. In your life there will be countless times when you are affected by a stranger's cigarette smoke; there won't be nearly as many times that you're affected by a drunk (I'm not weighing severity of consequences; I'm weighing frequency).

Now, living with drunks and smokers ... both suck mightily, I'm sure.

[Warren DeMontague]

92. Oh, God, not another self-pitying, "I'm so oppressed" smoker thread.

Waaaah.




I don't do either, by the way.

[Warren DeMontague]

91. My dad died of lung cancer.

All the alcoholics in my family managed to get sober and survive.

[seabeyond]

94. alcoholic has behavorial change, abusive, controlling, ugly. everyone has to walk egg shells around

them.

a lifetime.

if you feel the drunks in your family did not effect you as much as your dad dying from lung cancer, then so be it. i am certainly not going ot argue with you

[Warren DeMontague]

100. They're both terrible addictions.

In my experience, cigarettes seem to be harder for people to quit. Alcoholism is terrible, but the comparison is apples to oranges, and the entire raison d'etre for this thread is just another excuse for the poor oppressed smoker contingent to wax about how fucking unfair the world is to them, because they can't light up in the IHOP.. :eyes:

[boston bean]

107. No Mr. DeMontague, it is not an apples to oranges comparison.

that would be your opinion.

However they both cause physical ailments and harm others.

There is a difference in the way each is treated in society.

[Warren DeMontague]

114. What difference, specifically?

Do tell. Let's find out what this is really about.

[boston bean]

121. is alcohol banned in restaurants.

I don't see anyone here calling for that.

However, I don't disagree that smoking should not be allowed.

However, alcohol is allowed, it is just as dangerous and stinky.

People want to stop people from smoking in their apartment buildings. Should alcohol also be banned? A drunken neighbor can be a nightmare.

Every reason a person gives to further infringe upon the rights of others can be compared to people who drink alcohol, however that is not that case.

And then just the nasty ass comments, looking down upon people really makes my stomach hurl.

[JVS]

138. The system works as follows: you can do both at home, neither at work, and the rest of the world...

is split between places you can drink (bars, restaurants) and places you can smoke (out on the street, in the park, in your car).

[boston bean]

140. can you speak to the larger issue please

People want to stop people from smoking in their apartment buildings. Should alcohol also be banned? A drunken neighbor can be a nightmare.

Every reason a person gives to further infringe upon the rights of others can be compared to people who drink alcohol, however that is not that case.

And then just the nasty ass comments, looking down upon people really makes my stomach hurl.

[Warren DeMontague]

152. I don't think smoking should be banned in someone's apartment.

Well, let's rephrase- if a landlord wants no smoking as a lease condition for rental, that's one thing. I don't think municipalities can or should ban smoking in private dwellings.

I don't get it, though- you claim to agree that smoking should be banned inside restaurants, but you're still complaining about it? :shrug:

[boston bean]

157. I am more disgusted with the hypocrites, mean nasty people who think they are better.

While they are sipping on wine putting their noses in the air as they partake in a societal ill that is just as disgusting, harmful and deadly as smoking.

[sabrina 1]

161. Since this is the most ignorant statement I have ever read

about alcoholism, I take your entire opinion on both smoking and alcoholism as completely worthless. When people just make stuff up to win an argument on the internet, especially about something as serious as alcoholism, they have zero credibility.

Having lived with both smokers and drinkers, I'll take smokers any day. They never lose control of their minds, are responsible members of society, and the smell doesn't bother me, nor do I know a single person who ever was adversely affected by second hand smoke.

[Arugula Latte]

176. I do. A good friend is dying of lung cancer.

She never smoked but lived with a husband who puffed constantly for decades. She's paying the price for his stinking habit.

[sabrina 1]

187. That is unverifiable. I have two friends whose parents died of

lung cancer, and neither smoked nor did either ever live with a smoker. One, a hairdresser, was exposed to a lot of hair-spray though.

There are no documented cases of anyone dying of second-hand smoke, sorry.

As I said, your comments on alcoholism have basically rendered you completely not credible on these issues.

[Arugula Latte]

198. Oh, right, and nobody died from Chernobyl spewing radiation, either.

It's the same argument, and it's total B.S.

[Warren DeMontague]

207. How is it ignorant? Ever been to an AA meeting full of smokers?

My dad died of lung cancer. He was also an alcoholic. He was able to stay sober for 15 years, but cigarettes killed him.

There is solid scientific evidence that nicotine rivals heroin in terms of addictivity. It is VERY hard to quit.

Of course, if people haven't ever even bothered to try to quit, they might not realize that.

What am I 'just making up'? You've lived with both smokers and drinkers and drinkers are worse? Fucking Bully for you. If the point here is a contest between booze and smokes, if you had bothered to read the thread where you've accused me of "just making shit up", you would have seen that I said they're BOTH terrible addictions. Maybe terrible in different ways, but both terrible. And destructive.

If you think me saying that means I don't understand alcoholism, you're gravely mistaken.

[boston bean]

215. There is solid evidence that alcohol causes cancer.

yadda yadda yadda.

I'm sorry your dad died, but everyone's parent dies at some point.

Should we outlaw cars and factories and alcohol to protect everyone. should we look down our nose at someone who lived close to a nuclear plant or coal plant and came down with cancer. They didn't have to liver there after all.

the lists could go on.

And you seem to forget the difference between what alcohol does to a living person v smoking, it corrupts their mind, can make them violent insufferable assholes. Then it kills them after they've just about ruined everyone around them.

Can you say that of a smoker?

[Warren DeMontague]

229. "I'm sorry your dad died, but everyone's parent dies at some point."

Yeah, your deep sympathetic condolences are noted. :eyes:


"Should we outlaw cars and factories and alcohol to protect everyone"? No, and we shouldn't outlaw cigarettes, either. I never said we should. In fact, I didn't even think that's what your thread was about, 'outlawing' cigarettes. Or maybe it is. Or maybe it's about some spurious attempt to define which is 'worse', drinking or smoking. Or it's about the fact that you were smoking a cigarette and someone who was drinking a glass of wine gave you a dirty look. Or something.

Here's one difference that isn't taken into account by your silly apples and oranges comparison- only a small percentage of the people who ever drink; like, maybe 10%, are actually alcoholics. The snobby wine drinker who gave you a bad mojo for your smoking could very well have been someone who has, on average, one glass of wine a month. How many smokers smoke one cigarette a month? Not a whole hell of a lot. Most people over the age of 15, either they're smokers or they aren't. Most people who smoke are ADDICTED to nicotine. Because it is a known, highly addictive substance. Not for just some people- as alcohol seems to be- but for everyone.

That said, again, I'm not defending alcoholism. People addicted to alcohol AND people addicted to nicotine should do everything in their power to quit their addictions. For their sake, and the sake of the people around them.

[boston bean]

237. I didn't see you offering condolences about my father who died of alcoholism..

you need to take a look in that mirror your always telling everyone else to look in.

I don't really give a crap about your opinion on this, as your condescending attitude seems to overshadow any input you might have to give.

And you don't seem to realize that just partaking in alcohol consumption helps to prop up an industry that is a terrible harm to many many people.

However, even though this is the case, I don't think it should be banned and people should be allowed to drink if they want to. What I do not agree with, once again, is those who partake in imbibing alcohol that they know is harmful to a good portion of society, not just the alcoholic, and continue to have such disdain for others who want to put harmful shit in their bodies, when they are doing the same thing.

You seem to be the one who thinks smoking is worse and you tout bullshit statistics to support your case. you leave out the children, the ones killed, the families ruined, all those who die.

[Warren DeMontague]

238. You are really, really interested in having a battle with someone inside your own head

but that entity isn't me.

I am sorry your dad died of alcoholism. Seriously, I am. What does it prove that I didn't say it until now? You also neglected to offer your condolences for my friend who was killed at 26 by a drunk driver. Is this really the game you want to play, here?

As you may or may not have seen upthread, I have alcoholism in my family, too. My dad got sober and stayed that way for 15 years, only to have the smokes kill him. Both are terrible ways to die.

"I don't really give a crap about your opinion on this"-- well, you know what? You started the thread, so you asked. So you're going to get it whether you like it or not. Tough.

"you need to take a look in that mirror your always telling everyone else to look in." -where?

"tout bullshit statistics to support your case." -where?

"You seem to be the one who thinks smoking is worse" --- apparently, while you'll gladly tell me what my opinion is, you're not interested enough to listen (because you don't "give a crap") to it. Like I said, you're babbling. The only mirror I think you should look in is the one that will make you ask yourself what, precisely, you're so pissed off about here, and why.

What I want to know is, what are you trying to achieve in this thread? You want an apology from the wine drinkers? You want society to start liking cigarette smoke more? What is it you think you're going to accomplish, here?

[Renew Deal]

185. "if anyone hits smoking over alcohol, then they dont live a life with alcoholics."

Isn't that obvious?

[Arugula Latte]

195. Yet, statistically, smoking takes far, far more lives every year than alcohol

So it's really not surprising that many people think smoking is worse, if you had to choose between the two.

[seabeyond]

200. have you lived with an alcoholic? have you been raised by an alcoholic?

to me, your conclusion is mind boggling, but then i have watched it up close and see the damage.

not to correct you, or even argue with you. this one i totally feel it is experience and that is important to each individual.

[slackmaster]

15. Both pale in comparison to harm I've had from meth heads and heroin addicts

:argh:

[boston bean]

16. So there is a degree of harm

to/from different addictions?

[slackmaster]

35. Every situation is as unique as the individuals involved

I've known my girlfriend for more than 40 years, though we became intimate partners only two months ago. During our mandatory pre-intimacy discussions of things like communicable diseases, she disclosed to me that she smokes cigarettes. Only about four per day, but she's been doing it since she was about 20 years old and has been unable to quit completely. I don't feel any harm to myself from her addiction. The revelation was one of several shockers for me, as she is a conservative Roman Catholic and has always put on a very demure, "clean" outward persona. (She's something else entirely, something wonderful when we are alone!)

My ex-wife's drinking was one of many factors that did our relationship in, but not because she drank. She was never a heavy drinker, but mixed alcohol with Prozac (ignoring doctors' advice, warning labels, etc.) and became violent. To get out of that trap she chose the route of becoming a radical anti-drinker, and now puts more energy into avoiding alcohol then she ever put into enjoying it. She became addicted to NOT drinking, and started spending much of her free time with like-minded people who I could not tolerate because most of them are far more messed up than my ex or I could ever be. I've always felt the relationship might have been saved if she had quit the Prozac and fired all of her doctors instead of joining the AA cult.

I can handle my GF's occasional smoke just fine, and enjoy a beer or glass of wine with her just about any time.

I allowed a long-time meth user (and old friend) to move into my home two years ago because I thought she was clean. She wasn't, she made my life miserable for several weeks, and I ended up almost literally kicking her to the curb to protect myself.

[SidDithers]

19. LEAVE SMOKERS ALONE!!!

Sid

[boston bean]

22. That's all you got, hey Sid.

Well atleast it's more than usual, you took time to post a pic.

unrec your reply

[Buzz Clik]

21. The most negative impact on my life is the explosion of silly polls at DU.

[boston bean]

23. you have lived a very sheltered and good life then.

count yourself lucky. And be proud you can diss the experiences of others.

[Buzz Clik]

24. Thank you.

[madmom]

26. Both, I have alcoholics in the family, but I also have a smoker who

totaled my car while trying to find a dropped cigarette. The same person has caught several things on fire because of carelessness. Lucky for me there is always someone else around to put it out. Then we have the alcoholics that smoke:banghead:

[Bluenorthwest]

27. My cousin was killed by a drunk drive when she was 16

I've seen several drink themselves to death as well. Plus, even moderately drunk people are annoying beyond compare, stink, and they lose adult abilities to walk and speak with accuracy.
I've never seen a skid row filled with smokers. Every city has a drinker's gutter.

[anneboleyn]

61. I am sorry about your cousin. Good point about skid row , not because of smoking, but demon drink

Drink and drugs. But so many of them will tell you that hard core drinking started their downward spirals. I have also heard recovering alcoholics say that drinking is the hardest to kick by far.

[Dorian Gray]

29. My husband

quit drinking three years ago because of addiction and problems. His sister has chronic pancreatitis because of drinking and addiction.

His mother smokes and we won't let her babysit our kid.

My grandfather died of cancer related to smoking.

I smoked for 15 years and quit 5 years ago. I have asthma (which I found out about after I quit smoking.)

They both have had negative effects on my life. But I think alcohol has been worse.

[OnionPatch]

31. Oh, the stories I could tell.

I had an alcoholic father. The drinking destroyed his life and nearly those of his family. His smoking was only stinky.

[Skidmore]

32. Growing up with a father who was

an alcoholic chain smoker doesn't leave me enamoured of either. I coughed continually when he was home smoking and do not tolerate smoke to this day. My daughter and grandson are allergic to it. My father was ragingly abusive when he was drunk. Don't have any use for it myself. At the most, I have 1 or 2 drinks a year, if that. Neither vice is desirable. Addicts will always argue for their poison of choice. I get sick of seeing all the arguing on DU trying to rationalize the polluting people want to do of their own bodies while trying to argue that we should work for a cleaner environment. Hypocrisy galore.

[boston bean]

33. true enough. But the judgment upon smokers is really really nasty

we'll never see the day where that same type of nasty judgment is made upon people who drink, whether they are alcoholics or they drink occasionally. Alcohol causes disease, hurts families. Just because some do it responsibly, doesn't really make it ok. I very rarely drink, just like you, but I'm not out there asking for it to be banned from every single place I visit, because I know the harm it does to people drinking it and those around them.

[Little Star]

34. Drinkers! Hands down! ......

In my life I’ve had friends, lovers, kids, husband, parents, aunts, uncles, cousins and co-workers that have both smoked and consumed alcohol. I have to say that looking at all of them the ones that drank did more harm to me (and others) than any smoker ever even came close to doing.

Plus, drinkers stink to high heaven! I especially cannot stand wine and beer breath and the smell of the house the next morning! Uck!

That’s not to say smoking is good. It is just less harmful emotionally and physically than drinking.

[czernobog]

37. No one

Rather, I'm the one who smokes and drinks and makes problems for other people. :)

[Little Star]

39. lol

[ZombieHorde]

70. Awesome. nt

[BoWanZi]

40. Smokers by far. No one in my close family has been a drunk or had a problem with drinking

that I am aware of. My kids don't like to drink, my wife and I hate alcohol, my parents are nothing more than social drinkers, etc.

The only one that was a drinker was my dad who I never saw after I turned 18.

But as for smoking, my wife is a smoker and has caused big rifts in our relationship due to her quitting and then starting up again. A couple of people in my close family have gotten lung cancer and died from it. My dad actually died of emphysema and lung cancer rather than his drinking ironically.

So smoking has been far worse to me than drinking.

[Buzz Clik]

41. Damn. Really? I've known people who have never smoked, but I never knew anyone who never drank.

Amazing.

[BoWanZi]

44. Well never is too much of an absolute, My wife and I rarely ever drink

I have had alcohol maybe 5 times in the last 10 years, and my wife has had it maybe 10 times in the last 10 years. My older kids (23+) are very responsible with their drinking, if they ever need a ride, they will ask for one and never drive drunk.

Personally I just hate the taste of alcohol especially the sweet liquors, the smell of them alone is enough to make me want to retch.

[babydollhead]

63. we don't drink, now our kid is at college, not drinking

it really limits him. Husband had native american blood, allergic to alcohol, is sick for 3 days after just having one drink. I on the other hand had my own drinking problem in 9th grade, and saw for myself my capabilities. We don't drink, it's not fun, and we'll see how these kids turn out, by and by.

[wickerwoman]

111. I almost never drink.

I've just never liked the taste. And tiny, tiny amounts of white wine (like a few sips) or, god help up Champagne, give me a nasty migraine for days.

Given my druthers, I'd never drink, but a lot of times you go out and there's one or two people who just will not leave you alone if you're not drinking ("You don't drink? Really? Why not? Are you sure? Are you an alcoholic? Don't you find that socially limiting? You just haven't tried the good stuff. Try this- there isn't that much alcohol in it. Come on, don't make me finish this whole things myself." etc.) So just to get them to shut up, I'll have one drink, very, very slowly and look for a way to escape.

But yeah... not my thing at all.

[Upton]

42. Smoking..

growing up, none of my family had a problem with alcohol, but I watched the one smoker, my mother, die of cancer when I was in HS. It wasn't a cancer that is necessrily directly attributable to her smoking, but no one's going to convince me it didn't have something to do with it.

Now, neither myself or my SO are addicted to nicotine or drink. So, it's all good.

[SOS]

43. Booze killed all my 1980s friends

In the good old days, we heavy drinkers met every Friday night to get hammered.

I quit in 1992.

Hers' how the rest of the group fared:

Tom died of an enlarged heart at 56.
Peter overdosed at 49. BAC at autopsy was .55
Chuck shot himself at 54 after being arrested (again).
Jerry drank a bottle of vodka and fell down the stairs at 57.
Angel drank a quart a day. His liver gave out at age 45.
Danny died of a booze and Valium OD at age 44.
Stevie was drunk and thought climbing a water tower was a good idea. Dead at 35.
Jack was blotto and fell off a roof. Dead at 31.
Kathy was plastered and went swimming in a rock quarry. Drowned in 1985 at the age of 24.

I voted "alcohol".

[anneboleyn]

52. Wow. I am so sorry. That is brutal.

We have lost friends and family to drinking but this is just so hard. I am very sorry.

[babydollhead]

64. I'm sorry for your losses.

[babydollhead]

67. your post made me think of this Jim Carrol song...

People Who Died


Teddy sniffing glue, he was 12 years old
Fell from the roof on East Two-nine
Cathy was 11 when she pulled the plug
On 26 reds and a bottle of wine
Bobby got leukemia, 14 years old
He looked like 65 when he died
He was a friend of mine

Those are people who died, died
They were all my friends, and they died

G-berg and Georgie let their gimmicks go rotten
So they died of hepatitis in upper Manhattan
Sly in Vietnam took a bullet in the head
Bobby OD'd on Drano on the night that he was wed
They were two more friends of mine
Two more friends that died

Those are people who died, died
They were all my friends, and they died

Mary took a dry dive from a hotel room
Bobby hung himself from a cell in the tombs
Judy jumped in front of a subway train
Eddie got slit in the jugular vein
And Eddie, I miss you more than all the others
And I salute you brother

Those are people who died, died
They were all my friends, and they died

Herbie pushed Tony from the Boys' Club roof
Tony thought that his rage was just some goof
But Herbie sure gave Tony some bitchen proof
"Hey," Herbie said, "Tony, can you fly?"
But Tony couldn't fly, Tony died

Those are people who died, died
They were all my friends, and they died

Brian got busted on a narco rap
He beat the rap by rattin' on some bikers
He said, "Hey, I know it's dangerous, but it sure beats Riker's"
But the next day he got offed by the very same bikers

Those are people who died, died
They were all my friends, and they died

Teddy sniffing glue, he was 12 years old
Fell from the roof on East Two-nine
Cathy was 11 when she pulled the plug
On 26 reds and a bottle of wine
Bobby got leukemia, 14 years old
He looked like 65 when he died
He was a friend of mine

Those are people who died, died
They were all my friends, and they died

G-berg and Georgie let their gimmicks go rotten
So they died of hepatitis in upper Manhattan
Sly in Vietnam took a bullet in the head
Bobby OD'd on Drano on the night that he was wed
They were two more friends of mine
Two more friends that died

Those are people who died, died
They were all my friends, and they died

Mary took a dry dive from a hotel room
Bobby hung himself from a cell in the tombs
Judy jumped in front of a subway train
Eddie got slit in the jugular vein
And Eddie, I miss you more than all the others
And I salute you brother

Those are people who died, died
They were all my friends, and they died

[shanti]

47. my family has been affected by both

unfortunately, but i would say drinking has affected us more negatively. There's alcoholism on both sides, and many cig smokers. father, pgfather, and mgmother all had lung issues, cancer, emphysema, etc. I'm the only sibling who never smoked cigarettes. Most family members have long since quit smoking but still lots of drinkers :(

[JohnnyRingo]

53. Where's the third option for positive influence in this straw poll?

I mean, insomuch as heroin has vastly augmented my CD collection, without tobacco and alcohol it's possible we'd never have heard from the likes of Hunter Thompson, Hemmingway, or redneck comedian Ron White.

While that last one may be a blessing for some, I think it's a fact that alcohol has inspired certain eclectic artists while the tobacco has enabled them to maintain grips on public civility.

I'd never advocate alcohol or tobacco use for anyone, but for many it's a means to an end, both literally and metaphorically. Consider that some people don't look forward to the day their golden years build up a nasty tarnish so thick and grimy it makes a long life emotionally and physically unbearable.

I could go on to argue that alcohol and tobacco only take years off the worst end of one's life, but when I read this poll I got so mad I had to light up a cigarette and now the smoke is getting in my eyes as I type. LOL

[JoePhilly]

108. How about Obese versus Smokers versus Drinkers???

This is a dumb game.

The Smokers versus Drinkers debate here reminds me of how the Creationists try to prove creationism is real, by claiming that Evolution is not.

Even better ... Jerk versus Non-Jerk. Some smokers and some drinkers are jerks.

The smoker who blows his smoke over your dinner, jerk.
The drinker who gets rowdy and starts swearing in front of your kids at a ball game, jerk.

There are smokers AND drinkers who are jerks. The Jerks know that their behavior directly impacts those around them, and they still do it.

Arguing about which of these behaviors is worse, just so that YOUR behavior is LESS WORSE, is silly.

Drink, don't drink, Smoke, don't smoke ... I don't care ... just don't be a jerk when you do it.

That means don't smoke in a confined environment in which I have to breath in the smoke, aggravating my asthma. And it also means don't drink and drive because I actually want to make it home alive.

[boston bean]

113. talk about missing the point.

[JoePhilly]

128. There have been about what, 5 of these threads in the last few ... days ...

starting with (I think) one about smoking being banned in a dorm or some other closed environment.

And that one seemed to morph into the others. So we have 4 or so OPs, each trying to frame the "debate so that their smoking, or drinking, is less bad.

"If smoking is bad in a closed environment, what about drinking??"

Which led to arguments that "my smoking is not as bad is some one else's drinking".

Which leads to "which is worse, smokers or drinkers?" And your question asking paraphrase "which has been more bad for you?".

Given that most people who smoke, also drink, the question is kind of moot.

And then ... the direct effect of 2nd hand smoke, versus 2nd hand alcohol consumption can be measured. As can the effect of DUI versus SWD (Smoking while driving).

And thus my point. a JERK (whether a smoker or a drinker) knows these things. They understand in which situations their smoking or drinking impacts others. The non-jerk will minimize their impact on others. Jerks will not.

[JohnnyRingo]

183. Good point, not a missed one

You're right about "jerk" smokers and drinkers, and to assume all smokers and drinkers are jerks is a non-starter, and that's exactly what this poll does. It's so easy to look down one's nose at a person who may do something (legal) that another person does not and label them a disgusting scab on society.

Why not throw gambling in the poll? I smoke, but I don't gamble so I'd have to wonder what hurts society more; pedophilia, or gambling? I could assume playing a lottery ticket is as evil a sin as molesting a 14 year old because I do neither. That's convenient virtue.

I need another cigarette...
Maybe I'll pick my nose too so I can be a total outcast of society. I promise not to expose anyone to second hand snot. Only a jerk would do that. hahahaha

[anneboleyn]

54. No comparison, really. Alcohol. And my husband was affected by smoking as a child

Alcohol. Hands down.

He grew up with asthma and serious allergies, yet his relatives smoked away while he struggled to breathe. This went on until he was a teenager. Now he has permanent lung problems. Back then people didn't seem to understand that trapping a child with asthma in a room with multiple chain smokers is not a great situation for the child.

But alcohol ruins families, those who have to deal with the drunk directly and those who have lost loved ones because of drunk driving accidents. Smoking just doesn't compare to this. I know it affects health, but the impact is just not the same.

[johnfromokc]

55. Booze has certainly killed more people

but smoking killed my dad,and my oldest brother. I never had any drunks in my family, so personally it was smoking that affected me the most.

I had an uncle that worked at a cigarette manufacturer who often said: "Nobody that I know of ever smoked a pack of cigarettes and beat their wife and kids, and then got in a car and killed someone".

Can't argue his point. For the most part, smokers only kill themselves, excepting the second-hand smoke issue.

[Arugula Latte]

177. Actually, according to the Centers for Disease Control, smoking kills far, far more people

Here is the quote: "More deaths are caused each year by tobacco use than by all deaths from human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), illegal drug use, alcohol use, motor vehicle injuries, suicides, and murders combined."

[Codeine]

58. Every drunk I've ever known was also a smoker.

Filthy addictions tend to come in batches.

[boston bean]

196. People who drink socially are part of the problem as well.

It is a societal ill and as a society it has been decided to allow people who are responsible drinkers to continue to have their rights, alcohol is available. However it kills, it harms and leaves families in ruin.

[ThomWV]

60. As an alcoholic and reformed smoker I've seen both sides

As I've said many a time at an AA meeting, "Hello, my name is Thom and I'm and alcoholic" I won't be drinking any more, but for more than 30 years alcohol ruled my life. I also smoked. In fact I smoked for more years than I drank; started earlier and quit later.

I wish I hadn't smoked, it would have been better for me and everyone around me. But it pales in comparison to the damage I did to myself and others with alcohol. It takes you forever after you quit to even start to see how very bad it was, what it did to you and what you in turn did to everyone you touched. I hate to make it sound trivial, but smoking is just a fart in the wind compared to the damage done by alcohol. I used to think that drinking was an every-day part of life for everyone. Today it almost makes me cry to see a young person so much as take a sip of that fucking poison.

[anneboleyn]

62. Very well put. Smoking just pales compared to drinking.

[LWolf]

65. Both. nt

[bigwillq]

66. Heroin and alcohol

Had three friends die in a car crash from alcohol (friend was driving drunk, killed two other friends in the car) and one friend died from a heroin overdose.

[mwooldri]

69. Completely depends on perspective and everything.

Smoking and excessive consumption of alcoholic beverages are both harmful.

I have lost more family due to smoking related diseases than alcohol.

However it is far more likely for someone to down 10 units of vodka, get behind the wheel of a vehicle and get killed than it is for someone to smoke 80 cigarettes ... the 80 cigaretter is much less likely to get killed.

IMO the consumption of tobacco just takes an awful lot longer. Alcohol however is just much quicker, and it is possible to consume lots quickly and have very quick violent results as a result of the alcoholic consumption than the consumption of lots of tobacco products all at once.

I don't smoke, unless you could the two half cigarettes I smoked when completely drunk in my student days. I never got addicted to alcohol because I didn't like the effect even one or two drinks had on me. However my medications I have to take to stay alive states "do not consumer with alcohol" - so I don't. Last known consumption of alcohol was at my sisters' wedding - two sips of champagne.

Mark.

[pintobean]

71. .

[Lisa0825]

72. Smoking killed both my parents. nt

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

74. And although both smoked well into their 50s, didn't kill mine.

[Lisa0825]

75. That doesn't change the scientific fact that smoking causes cancer,

lung disease, heart disease, etc.

[boston bean]

77. and drinking causes many ailments. what should we do as a society? nt

[Lisa0825]

78. The question I answered was about my personal experience. nt

[boston bean]

79. understood, and i can sympathize.

my question is what should we do about drinking as a society?

Should we begin to treat it the same way as smoking?

My life has been harmed, I have lost loved ones from alcohol.

[Lisa0825]

80. There are already laws regarding alcohol, (DUI, PI, etc) and the other

affects of drinking are covered by other existing laws... someone gets drunk and picks a fight? Assault, along with PI.

[boston bean]

84. Alcohol is not banned and even though there are laws, shit still happens.

you do understand the difference, don't you?

Should we ban drinking in bars and restaurants and buying it in grocery stores.

Should we ban drinking in apartments?

[Warren DeMontague]

95. No, we should not ban drinking or smoking. And we haven't, and we won't.

However, being asked to step outside of an enclosed public space before smoking, or even being told that your clothes smell like wet dog, is not the same thing as "banning" smoking.

[boston bean]

99. Already happens...

And yes people want cigarettes to be illegal.

[Warren DeMontague]

116. Who?

Do you really think that's going to happen? It's not. It's like the paranoid gun owners. It's not going to be made "illegal". The stupid drug laws we ALREADY have are unenforceable. (You want to talk about 'oppression'? Ask a pot smoker)

Having to go outside before lighting up is not the same thing as making something illegal, and I suspect that's what this is really about.

[boston bean]

122. duh, no I certainly don't think it's going to happen nor do i think it should.

however you never even hear it?

Is it because most anti smoking freaks drink?

Wouldn't want to infringe or think badly of themselves, would they.

It is treated differently even though the activity has many of the same effects.

That is my point, do you get it or don't you?

And it's going to god damned far and the nasty ass judgmental people who think their better, while sipping their glasses of disgusting wine, all the while knowing what it does to our society, continue look down upon others for having a habit.

It fuckin sucks. The attitude fuckin sucks. And it's meaner than all hell. And it aint progressive. It's hypocritical.

[Warren DeMontague]

93. What should "we" do? "We" should step the outside before lighting that thing,

and stop whining because other people don't enjoy the dog ass stink.

[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Warren DeMontague]

98. I'm not complaining. It's way better than it used to be.

Back when my dad was smoking a pack a day, and you couldn't go out to breakfast without having to breathe in giant clouds of cigarette smoke.

My dad, you know, the one who died of lung cancer.

Ever seen anyone die of lung cancer? UGLY fucking way to die. Seriously. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

[boston bean]

101. My experience was watching my father die from alcoholism..

so why should alcohol be so easily left from the equation?

I'm sure watching my father die from alcoholism was no easier or harder than you watching your father die from lung cancer.

[Warren DeMontague]

102. I encourage anyone addicted to alcohol OR nicotine to do whatever they can to kick the habit.

Probably posting long-winded, self pitying threads on the internet about how oppressed they are by people not enabling their addiction enough, is not a step in the direction of recovery, though.

[boston bean]

104. No, you are a judgmental and mean towards smokers.

You are not encouraging at all.

And I never see you doing that to alcoholics or people who drink, causing accident, or bodily injury to themselves and others.

There is no difference.

[Warren DeMontague]

109. I am "a judgmental and mean"? Huh? And what, are you following all my posts that closely?

Because really, while I certainly appreciate having a fan base, you should pay closer attention. My best friend was killed at age 26 by a drunk driver. You go ahead and find where I've encouraged drunks to cause accidents or otherwise endanger people. Go ahead, I'll wait.



Now since you started the thread and you are obviously the one with some burr in your britches, why don't you offer some specific example of how you feel you are being treated unfairly as a smoker, or a specific example of how you feel society is coming to take away your right to smoke cigarettes. Because honestly, this is a goofy comparison you're trying to make.

[boston bean]

123. If i had the time I would go find your offensive post, however I don't really care to.

you are judgmental. You need to stop it. I was quite disgusted by what you wrote. So I remembered it. If that's what you call a fan base, so be it.

I never said you encourage drunk driving.

[Warren DeMontague]

159. Ah. So you got nothin'. Thought so.

Swing, and a miss.

[boston bean]

170. I wouldn't waste one second searching on your name

I know you are an extremely judgmental vicious person when it comes to smoking.

[Warren DeMontague]

205. And now who's making assumptions?

How am I extremely judgmental and vicious? Oh, that's right, you 'know' I am, but you can't be 'bothered' to back it up with a link or even a reference. Uh Huh.

Well, here's a summary of my extremely judgmental and vicious attitudes about it: I think it's an unhealthy habit, personally I think it makes people smell foul, and having grown up in an era when, as a kid, I was forced to be stuck in an inordinate number of enclosed, smoke-filled environments, I'm very glad that it's a) not as popular as it used to be and b) regulated to the extent of being prohibited in most indoor, public spaces. So people who want to smoke can go outside.

Like I said, my dad died of lung cancer. I'm extremely glad I never really picked up cigarette smoking in high school, because I know I would have had a hell of a time quitting. Honestly, I was too busy smoking pot to smoke much of anything else. But when the time came to quit smoking pot, it was pretty easy to do. Obviously, my dad wasn't lucky in that regard, and he knew, at the end of his life, that the cigarettes had killed him.

But despite all that, I firmly believe cigarettes (like booze, and like pot) should be legal, regulated, and taxed. But that doesn't mean people should be free to do any or all of them anywhere and everywhere. There are lots of regulations on where you can do things. You can't take a shit on a table at a restaurant. You can't pull your dick out and masturbate in a bar (most bars, at least) ... you can't get an abortion in a Kragen Auto Parts store. Yet shitting, masturbation, and abortion are all legal. So is smoking, but it is generally regulated to the extent of where it can be done. And this seems to be the source of the chagrin we get, on a regular basis, from smokers complaining about 'repression' and 'anti-smoking nazis', etc.

I don't hate smokers, and honestly, if I don't have to breathe it in, I don't give a shit. At ALL. It's your body. Your choice. Knock yourself out.

But, really, what seems to be going on here is that you've come pretty much unglued over something, not sure what, apparently feeling oppressed as a smoker or made to go outside or I don't know what-the-fuck is the problem. But for someone who is supposedly on an anti-alcohol tear, your behavior in this thread, honestly, is coming off a little less than sober.

Seriously, if you're that anti-alcohol and pro-smokes, you would have loved AA, at least a decade or two ago. I don't know, maybe there are still smoker friendly meetings, even. No drinking, major chain smoking.

Right up your alley? :shrug:

[boston bean]

216. you're personal experience is not everyone's

and yes you did type out some very judgmental posts about smokers, not smoking.

You can go find them yourself. Although I'm sure you don't have to as you seem to have a working memory.

And you can continue to make any assumption about me that you would like.

I have told you numerous time I do not think alcohol should be banned, what bothers me is the hypocrisy of people who like to tip quite a few are ready to look down their nose at smokers all the while partaking in another of societies ills that is just as dangerous and deadly.

[Warren DeMontague]

230. Okay, let's hear the story. Out with it.

Where were you- out to dinner? Which chardonnay sipping yuppie gave you a nasty look?

C'mon, if it's worth an entire thread, you can tell us the background story.

[boston bean]

234. Condescending...... I don't do condescending.

[Warren DeMontague]

239. There's obviously a story behind this.

I'm serious- let's hear it. :shrug:

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

87. No, but it doesn't always. I stopped smoking and am glad that I did but I will

never dictate my decision to another smoker.

[etherealtruth]

83. Alcohol .... no question

Though I certainly don't think smoking is a good idea, I haven't been truly harmed by anyone's smoking. The excessive alcohol consumption of other's ... that is quite a different matter.

[MrSlayer]

86. Neither have had any significant negative impact.

I have imbibed enough to make myself sick on several occasions but nothing that effected me long term. Certainly nothing from either product that caused any emotional turmoil.

[Xenotime]

103. Both should be banned.

[Warren DeMontague]

112. Neither should be banned

but aficionados of both should stop whining that the world doesn't make it more convenient for them to get their fix.

[JVS]

125. Someone stop this crazy person!

[former9thward]

144. Prohibitionists should be banned.

[benEzra]

220. Definitely... (n/t)

[fishwax]

174. oy n/t

[Amaya]

118. i like doing both

:beer:

[Fuddnik]

124. Farters!

Especially a drunken farter with a cigar in his mouth.

[johnnie]

127. When I watch Cops I never really see smokers

"um dude... someone stole my Doritos and I'm pissed"."So I was smokin' and I ordered a triple cheese pizza with some Iced tea and they haven't been here yet! It's been a half hour!" "We were smokin' and this one dude got up to take a leak and he tripped on his own feet and we were laughing our asses off and I need a cop here to stop us from laughing....dude".

[Liberal_in_LA]

135. drinkers by far! Smokers just made me cough a bit. Drinkers brought on the chaos

[JVS]

136. Without drinks I find everyone emotionally insufferable.

[Raine]

137. Both ... my boyfriend's sister was killed by a drunk driver

my best friend died from lung cancer caused by years of smoking. I miss them both so much, their deaths left an emotional & physical void in my life.

[johnnie]

142. My grandfather died last Wednesday

He started smoking when he was 8 and quite when he was 68. He died of being old at 93. My aunt died last Saturday. She smoked and drank for most of her life. But she was in her 70s like most of my older relatives. Death comes to all of us and we don't know when and how. Blame it on this and that, but it will get ya somehow. If my grandfather had stopped smoking when he was 30 he could have lived until he was 220. Who knows?

[Raine]

202. I'm very sorry about your grandfather

I think much depends on the genes that you inherit. Unfortunately you don't know ahead of time whether you have inherited the strong ones or not. What one person can get away with another one can't.

[Arugula Latte]

141. Personally for me, smoking has been far worse

My dad had been a smoker and died of a heart attack; a good family friend is currently dying because she lived with her chimney of a husband for decades; my grandpa died of smoking-related cancer; one brother-in-law has emphysema due to smoking; my sister-in-law has had reoccurring cancer and permanent lung damage because she could never stop smoking; I could go on ...

[woo me with science]

145. I get tired of lining up people to hate. nt

[boston bean]

146. me too. nt

[benEzra]

154. Well said. Thank you. (n/t)

[Renew Deal]

186. BOOOOORRRRRIIIINNNNNNGGGGG!

:evilgrin:

[sabrina 1]

201. Me too, but for some, it's an obsession and the anti-drug, anti-smoking

anti-whatever lobbies, seem to feed those obsessions, to give them fuel to be able to whine about how abused they are by what other people do.

I really don't care what anyone does, but like Boston Bean, I feel that a far worse curse on society are people who are judgemental of others.

I don't do drugs either, but I hate the judgementalism of those who apparently feel they are somehow superior, or have a need to feel that way.

Most vehemently anti-smoking/alcohol/drugs people I have known have always had some underlying emotional problems that makes them feel the world should not turn unless it turns in the direction they want it to.

I mean it's not like we're not all going to die sooner or later. Even if everyone quit drinking, smoking and drugs, they'd STILL die. So I don't get the emotional investment some people put into shouting about how outraged they are by what others do. They'll give themselves heart attacks from the stress of trying to control the world.

[The Straight Story]

148. Drivers, people who use electric and gas - why can't folks be more like the Amish?

:shrug:

[benEzra]

153. My wife's father was an abusive alcoholic. So yeah, alcohol. BUT...

I don't agree with bans or punitive restrictions on smoking or alcohol, and we have a bottle of wine and some Mike's lemonade in the house. Neither of us smoke, but some of my relatives do.

Just in my personal opinion, I think air quality standards for nonsmoking sections in restaurants would be a better approach than across-the-board smoking bans. Ditto for individual apartments. Ventilation is not rocket science.

[Arugula Latte]

165. Oh, yeah, that really works. Remember when planes had "non-smoking" sections?

The whole plane wound up being an enclosed smokey flying choke fest. Smoke even creeps into neighboring houses and apartments. Air ain't so easy to control.

[benEzra]

172. You must have missed where I said "air quality standards."

There was no attempt whatsoever on airliners to keep the nonsmoking section smoke-free, and an airliner is one large room.

Separate smoking and nonsmoking rooms with separate ventilation can certainly be done in a restaurant at reasonable expense, and systems can be certified and air quality standards enforced. That is not hard. It doesn't satisfy the moralist urge to make smokers pariahs, though.

And FWIW, I hate cigarette smoke; it gives me migraines. But I'm not a fundamentalist about people smoking where I can't smell them.

[Little Star]

I feel the same way about drinkers. As long as I don't have to...

be any where near them, I have no problem with how they act or smell.

With the exception that I do hate how they effect the lives of others or kill others.

[Arugula Latte]

182. Do you hate how smokers affect the lives of other or kill others, too?

[Little Star]

189. Smoking is not a good thing. However, drinking is much worse......

Ever be a kid who has to wake up to a hung over parent? Or be embarrassed by their actions? How about when they beat their kid cause they had a few to many? And those are the most insignificant things I can say about drinking.

Drinking kills emotionally and physically. It destroys marriages,families and human beings. And it does it quick. Doesn't take twenty,thirty,forty years either.

Oh never mind. If you can't figure out that drinking is worse than smoking.... there is nothing I can say to you.

[Arugula Latte]

197. And if you can't figure out that smoking kills far, far more people every year than drinking,

all the while destroying thousands of families, causing untold suffering and ill health effects, and robbing children of parents, then there is nothing I can say to you. Yes, they both take their toll, but statistically smoking takes a far greater toll.

P.S., I am not just pulling that out of my butt, so to speak. This is from the Centers for Disease Control: "More deaths are caused each year by tobacco use than by all deaths from human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), illegal drug use, alcohol use, motor vehicle injuries, suicides, and murders combined."

[boston bean]

199. If smoking was outlawed would you join a alcohol prohibition movement? nt

[benEzra]

218. Smoking is alleged to kill around 400,000 Americans annually, mostly people

who are approaching the upper end of normal life expectancy and have been smoking for a long time.

Alcohol kills around 100,000 Americans annually, many of whom are nondrinkers (via drunk driving, alcohol-facilitated murder, and manslaughter). I do not have "years of life lost" figures handy, but I believe they are a lot less uneven than the raw death stats are.

Alcohol also contributes to domestic abuse in ways smoking does not. My wife's mother was a chain smoker; my wife's father was an alcoholic. Guess who beat the shit out of whom.

As I said upthread, I believe smoking bans and drinking bans are neo-Puritanical approaches that are wrongheaded and infringe on civil liberties and human dignity, and even though I am a nonsmoker I will fight outright smoking bans just as much as I will fight alcohol bans. There are ways to mitigate the abuse without going all fundamentalist on the issue (and believe me, right-wing fundies are a huge part of both the antismoking and anti-alcohol movements).

[boston bean]

219. I don't disagree with you.

[Arugula Latte]

160. "More deaths are caused each year by tobacco use than by all deaths from ...

... human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), illegal drug use, alcohol use, motor vehicle injuries, suicides, and murders combined." -- The Centers for Disease Control

[boston bean]

173. Have they added in the lives ruined, people physically harmed

by an alcoholic?

Look at some of these statistics on the virtue of alcohol:

Each year, a typical young person in the United States is inundated with more than 1,000 commercials for beer and wine coolers and several thousand fictional drinking incidents on television.


Alcohol is involved in 50% of all driving fatalities.


In the United States, every 30 minutes someone is killed in an alcohol related traffic accident.


Over 15 million Americans are dependent on alcohol. 500,000 are between the age of 9 and 12.


Each year the liquor industry spends almost $2 billion dollars on advertising and encouraging the consumption of alcoholic beverages.


Americans spend over $90 billion dollars total on alcohol each year.


An average American may consume over 25 gallons of beer, 2 gallons of wine, and 1.5 gallons of distilled spirits each year.


Pregnant women who drink are feeding alcohol to their babies. Unfortunately the underdeveloped liver of the baby can only burn alcohol at half the rate of its mother, so the alcohol stays in the baby's system twice as long.


Each year students spend $5.5 billion on alcohol, more then they spend on soft drinks, tea, milk, juice, coffee, or books combined.


56% of students in grade 5 to 12 say that alcohol advertising encourages them to drink.


6.6% of employees in full time jobs report heavy drinking, defined as drinking five or more drinks per occasion on five or more days in the past 30 days.


The highest percentage of heavy drinkers (12.2%) is found among unemployed adults between the age of 26 to 34


Up to 40% of all industrial fatalities and 47% of industrial injuries can be linked to alcohol consumption and alcoholism.


In 2000, almost 7 million persons age 12 to 20 was a binge drinker; that is about one in five persons under the legal drinking age was a binge drinker.


The 2001 survey shows 25 million (one in ten) Americans surveyed reported driving under the influence of alcohol. This report is nearly three million more than the previous year. Among young adults age 18 to 25 years, almost 23% drove under the influence of alcohol.


Drunk driving is proving to be even deadlier then what we previously know. The latest death statistics released by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), using a new method of calculation show that 17,488 people where killed in alcohol related traffic accidents last year. This report represents nearly 800 more people where killed than the previous year.


Alcohol is the number 1 drug problem in America.


43% of Americans have been exposed to alcoholism in their families.


Nearly one out of 4 Americans admitted to general hospitals have alcohol problems or are undiagnosed alcoholics being diagnosed for alcohol related consequences.


Alcohol and alcohol related problems is costing the American economy at least $100 million in health care and lost of productivity every year.


Four in ten criminal offenders report alcohol as a factor in violence.


Among spouse violence victims, three out of four incidents were reported to have involved alcohol use by the offender.


In 1996, local law enforcement agencies made an estimated 1,467,300 arrests nationwide for driving under the influence of alcohol.

ETA to add link:

http://www.drug-rehabs.org/alcohol-statistics.php

[Arugula Latte]

178. How about this reign of terror from smoking (talk about lives ruined):

Cigarette smoking causes about 1 of every 5 deaths in the United States each year. Cigarette smoking is estimated to cause the following:

* 443,000 deaths annually (including deaths from secondhand smoke)
* 49,400 deaths per year from secondhand smoke exposure
* 269,655 deaths annually among men
* 173,940 deaths annually among women

Cigarette use causes premature death:

* On average, adults who smoke cigarettes die 14 years earlier than nonsmokers.
* Based on current cigarette smoking patterns, an estimated 25 million Americans who are alive today will die prematurely from smoking-related illnesses, including 5 million people younger than 18 years of age.

Secondhand Smoke and Death

Exposure to secondhand smoke—sometimes called environmental tobacco smoke—causes nearly 50,000 deaths each year among adults in the United States:

* Secondhand smoke causes 3,400 annual deaths from lung cancer.
* Secondhand smoke causes 46,000 annual deaths from heart disease.

Increased Risk for Death Among Men

* Men who smoke increase their risk of dying from bronchitis by nearly 10 times, from emphysema by nearly 10 times, and from lung cancer by more than 22 times.
* Smoking triples middle-aged men's risk of dying from heart disease.

Increased Risk for Death Among Women

* Women who smoke increase their risk of dying from bronchitis by more than 10 times, from emphysema by more than 10 times, and from lung cancer by nearly 12 times.
* Between 1960 and 1990, deaths from lung cancer among women increased by more than 500%.
* Smoking triples middle-aged women's risk of dying from heart disease.

* * *

A lot of people posting on this thread are in serious denial about the harmful effects of smoking.

[boston bean]

181. I have denied NOTHING!

NEVER have I denied that smoking doesn't do any of the things you mention!

What do you think about alcohol and should we demonize everyone that drinks it and ban it from every where.

Lots of people are in denial about the effects of alcohol on our society.

Actually, you are the one who started to bring up the statistics about which is worse.

Are you in some sort of denial about the effects of alcohol? Do you save your wrath for only those who smoke?

It's obvious alcohol has is just as harmful and deadly as smoking...

[SOS]

227. The alcohol numbers are vastly underreported

I know 10 people who died of alcohol abuse whose death certificates made no mention of their alcoholism.
Yes, that's anecdotal, but other resources back this up.

From the New York Times:

ALCOHOL-RELATED DEATHS SEEN UNDERREPORTED

The researchers found alcohol was a factor in 133 of the deaths, but death certificates indicated alcohol was related to only 21.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DE2DD1639F932A15754C0A961948260

[krabigirl]

163. neither have affected me negatively

[boston bean]

191. you sound like you're in denial...

:P

[joshcryer]

179. You, you sir, win for the most amazing controversial poll ever.

[fishwax]

180. most of the folks who've negatively affected me who were one were actually both

So I guess that makes it a tie. Overall alcohol has been more frequently the *cause* of such problems--but, then again, it's also played a role in things that have positively affected me (and that can't be said, to the same degree, of tobacco).

[Little Star]

192. 192 comments and not one rec? That has to be a first!

[Iggo]

223. There's recs. They're just way outnumbered by the unrecs.

Not surprising.

[Capn Sunshine]

194. There's no proof that cigarettes cause any harm

nothing scientific. Why I always feel better after I light up. MMMMHmmmmmmmm.
I only wake up because I can't wait to smoke my first cigarette of the day. What a pleasure in life.
People who don't understand this are just assholes.

[jmowreader]

203. It was a smoker for me

My ex-wife was a smoker. And for the last four months we were together, I was in a very low paying job. In fact, it paid so badly I could only spend $80 every two weeks on groceries.

This was my grocery list for two weeks:

10 cans of spaghetti sauce ($10 at Walmart)
10 pounds of pasta ($8 at Walmart)
four family-size frozen dinners ($10 at Walmart)
one can parmesan cheese because she insisted on having it ($3)
two boxes teabags ($4)

The other $45 went into a carton of cigarettes. She'd run out four days before payday, and I'd have to go buy some more.

But hey, this was better than it was when I was on the road--she was buying a carton every week.

This list translates into one meal per day, which I had to cook, serve to her and retrieve the dishes after she was done because she was in a World of Warcraft tournament every night.

Oh yes: she refused to even look for work. Or to find a "work from home" thing that was legitimate. Or to do anything else to attempt to bring money into the house.

It gets even better: My parents sent us money for a Christmas dinner. I ate alone on Christmas day because there was a WoW tournament that evening and she absolutely could not miss it.

I haven't ever dealt with a drinker that forced me to eat once a day because her booze bill precluded us buying food.

I am in the market for a new female companion. I have exactly three criteria: must have a job, must not smoke and must not play World of Warcraft.

[Luciferous]

225. My biological father was an alcoholic who died from it by the time

he was 28, so I went with drinkers.

ETA: But he was a real bastard, so maybe him drinking himself to death was a good thing? :shrug:

[rustydog]

228. Definitely Drinkers. alcohol is a personality enhancer

if you are an insufferable prick when sober...You are an enormous insufferable prick when drinking.
you think you are smarter, you think you are braver, you think you are tougher and think you can fight anyone when drunk.

A prick who is drunk and smokes just makes the contact with them worse.

[Wait Wut]

233. I agree, in general.

But, I do have a friendly acquaintance who is an enormous ass when sober that turns into a puppy when he drinks. The only one I know who has a beneficial reaction to alcohol. Sad part is, he seems to have an allergic reaction of some kind. He gets HORRIBLE hangovers that last for days. That's the only thing that keeps the rest of us from suggesting he drink more.

[Warren DeMontague]

240. Cigarettes seem to have a definite effect on some personality types.

To wit, they seem to engender paranoia and persecution complexes, a near-solipsistic inability to imagine that the concerns, health and otherwise, of other people in their immediate vicinity are motivated by anything other than an authoritarian need to control, and they also seem to make some people think that wet dog ass smells like fresh spring roses.

[Wait Wut]

232. I think some misread the question.

"...which has more negatively affected YOU both physicall and emotionally."

I understand why so many would say smoking. If you aren't surrounded by alcoholics, that would almost be a default answer. If, however, the wording was changed to: "Which do you think is most dangerous to society, today?" I would imagine some of you would change your answer.

My parents were both alcoholics and chain smokers. My dad's side of the family were all both. My mother drank during her entire pregnancy. I won't bore you with the life of abuse and psychological damage caused by alcoholism, I will just say that in answer to the original question...alcohol. In answer to my reworded version...alcohol. Most cities and towns have restrictions on smoking these days, so the exposure to "second-hand smoke" is limited if at all. Yes, most cities and towns also have drunk driving, public drinking, etc. laws, but alcoholics don't pay attention to those. Most smokers do pay attention to no smoking laws. The effects of alcoholism don't stop with the alcoholic.

In the spirit of transparency: I smoke regularly and drink socially.

[Bake]

235. I like donuts.

Mmmmmm ... donuts.

Bake

[Incitatus]

236. I agree

Donuts are delicious.