Anti-Sex Trade Turns to Focus on Men Who Buy Sex and "John Schools"

[whathehell]

Anti-Sex Trade Turns to Focus on Men Who Buy Sex
By Alizah Salario


Monday, April 18, 2011

A legal shift in looking at the men who pay for sex is a new focus for anti-sex trafficking activists. The strategy has led to changes in state legislation and educational programs at a growing number of "john schools."

When Marian Hatcher speaks to men who pay for sex, she tells them about the guy who used her as his punching bag for hours on end, long after she became bruised and bloodied.

"All he wanted to do was hit me," said Hatcher.

A college degree and 17 years of working in a corporate job didn't make Hatcher immune to the perils of sex trafficking after an abusive marriage led her to drugs and eventually to prostitution.

"Suddenly I didn't even know who I was," she said. "My story proves that it could happen to anyone."

Now an executive assistant to Cook County Sheriff Thomas J. Dart in the Women's Justice Program in Chicago, Hatcher is dedicated to shifting the punishment for sex trafficking from suppliers to buyers, or "johns."

more..

http://www.womensenews.org/story/prostitution-and-trafficking/110415/anti-sex-trade-turns-focus-men-who-buy-sex

[P. Galore]

1. Users of marijuana are arrested, so this would be the same. Johns have had it too easy for too long

Though I think possession of marijuana should be legal.

[whathehell]

6. I agree. n/t

[Keith Bee]

20. True

[Shagbark Hickory]

31. So you think posession should be legal but not being a john?

[P. Galore]

41. Yes. nt

[roguevalley]

39. put their names and faces on the front page of newspapers.

[defendandprotect]

170. +1 -- on both issues!

[WatsonT]

2. The violence and drug abuse comes about largely because it is illegal

History has shown quite clearly that when you drive something underground it gets associated with all sorts of vile practices.

When alcohol was illegal it was controlled by people who would routinely beat and murder their competition to get an edge. Now bars beat out their competition by offering cheaper buffalo wings during happy hour.

[seabeyond]

4. you are wrong. the countries that have legalized prostitution have found an increase in criminal

activity. and it leaves the police hampered because it is legal, harder to get at the criminal. child and sex slavery has increased in these environments. in sweden they changed their laws where prostitution was not criminalized and the john criminalized. the crime and prostitution has decreased significantly. the other countries that have it legalized are looking to sweden

i dont have a bone to pick in this battle. i dont care if it is legal or not, people use prostitutes or not. but i am tired of hearing legalizing is going to make everything wonderful when there is plenty of info that is not true

[WatsonT]

7. Could you provide links, please?

Everything I've read so far suggests that a legal and well regulated system is best for everyone: it cuts down on disease and abuse and leaves most of the money with the workers.

And it seems morally and legally confusing to make only one half of the act illegal. Either both are wrong or both are not wrong, but not one half. Like making it legal to sell heroin, then arresting users. It's contradictory.

Legalizing and regulating anything is no guarantee of course. There will always be abuse and people will fall through the cracks.

But a proper system can minimize such things and create a legal structure to penalize those who do commit transgressions.

Right now a woman would have to report herself for prostitution in addition to reporting the abuser. I would think that would make reporting less likely and abuse more rampant.

[seabeyond]

9. google... does legalized prostitution work

Even in the Netherlands, women and girls who sell their bodies are routinely threatened, beaten, raped, and terrorized by pimps and customers. In a recent criminal trial, two German-Turkish brothers stood accused of forcing more than 100 women to work in Amsterdam's red-light district (De Wallen). According to the attorney who represented one of the victims, most of these women come from families marred by incest, alcohol abuse, and parental suicide. Or they come from countries in Eastern Europe or Southeast Asia and have fallen victim to human trafficking, lured by decent job offers or simply sold by their parents.

These women are Amsterdam's leading tourist attraction (followed by the coffee shops that sell marijuana). But an estimated 50 to 90 percent of them are actually sex slaves, raped on a daily basis with police idly standing by. It is incomprehensible that their clients are not prosecuted for rape, but Dutch politicians argue that it cannot be established whether or not a prostitute works voluntarily. Appalled by their daily routine, police officers from the Amsterdam vice squad have asked to be transferred to other departments. Only this year, the city administration has started to close down some brothels because of their ties to criminal organizations.

According to a study published in the American Journal of Epidemiology, the average age of death of prostitutes is 34. In the United States, the rate at which prostitutes are killed in the workplace is 51 times that of the next most dangerous occupation for women, working in a liquor store. Other studies show that nine out of ten prostitutes urgently want to escape the job. Almost half have attempted suicide at least once.

In 1999, the Swedish government decriminalized the sale of sex, but made it an offense to pimp or to buy sex. Under Sweden's so-called "Sex Purchase Law," paying for sex is punishable by fines or up to six months in prison, plus the humiliation of public exposure. According to the Swedish authorities, the number of prostitutes in Sweden has dropped 40 percent as a result. Human trafficking rings tend to avoid Sweden, because business has gone sour.

http://www.policyinnovations.org/ideas/commentary/data/000107


i am not going ot put a lot of time providing info. have done in past, wasting my time as info is ignored. easy enough to do your own research. i just grabbed the first that came up in google

[WatsonT]

12. The author didn't list any sources

merely made statements.

Also she used the US as an example, but it is currently illegal here.

I asked for sources precisely because I had googled it in the past and most sources said that it was a net improvement in the lives of sex workers.

[seabeyond]

19. this is precisely why i dont waste my time.... nt

[ismnotwasm]

23. I was going to say!

I'm not even going to join in this one, but good try seabeyond. They won't listen, they won't research, they just float on entitlement or misconceptions as usual.

[WatsonT]

30. I did research it

that's the whole point.
The results of my research and her statements don't match. So I asked for evidence to the contrary and apparently that was some sort of faux-pas.

Your statement is the very definition of projection.

Yours is very close minded bunch. "Prostitution is wrong and it's not worth wasting my time debating it! Don't you dare even ask me to support my claims with facts you jerk!"

Kind of like getting in to a debate over religion with a true-believer.

[LanternWaste]

125. You can of course provide valid, peer-reviewed sources which emphatically conclude

You can of course provide valid, peer-reviewed sources which emphatically conclude that overall, prostitutes in traditional, male-dominated, misogynistic cultures are treated better than in liberal, democratic societies in which it is indeed outlawed?






"Kind of like getting in to a debate over religion with a true-believer."
Seems almost as horrid as self-validating, passive-aggressive insults... :shrug:

[WatsonT]

139. Why should I have to provide evidence?

This is a waste of time, you have a closed mind. Just agree with me.

Sorry, that's what I'd say if I were on your side.

Here you go:

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:h2zIBuqr1FMJ:www.wodc.nl/images/ob249a_fulltext_tcm44-83466.pdf+%28Daalder,+2007+prostitution&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESh6w9TGMrhrXhP28fgkU4JfVK1W_pWAae4cUq0SCokPndymcBYaixxHFVm40qAaKuwfA9GusT8veq0jyecOtoLzjHiaPEGNccuQmuWExr_kSE4ZeVYb4h9qgb6_5HYXvUd4N0Y5&sig=AHIEtbTbvrPWJ70Wr-_tPQmn9RcSMuJg7g

http://www.springerlink.com/content/k2827t7uu446l2t8/

[WatsonT]

29. Asking you to support your claims is a waste of time?

Interesting.

[EOTE]

17. The link you provide does not suggest what you say it does. NT

[whathehell]

5. Beating up prostitutes

has nothing to do with the "competition" of the business.

It's an ugly, exploitative business...Studies show that

well over 90 percent of prostitutes were sexually abused as children.

[WatsonT]

8. Criminal activity tends to cluster together

if you're already breaking the law why not break a few more?

And if the person you're abusing is likewise living contrary to the law you know they are less likely to report you.

So normal laws don't apply.

There's a reason legal brothels don't have nearly the same problems as street prostitutes.

[seabeyond]

10. if it is illegal cops already have the means to get in there with crime. if legal

cops hands are tied

[WatsonT]

15. If legal cops will get mor cooperation from the prostitutes

if legal it will all be done out in the open and not in back alleys where they don't patrol.

If legal there will be established houses with security and cameras and registries of customers to limit such behavior.

Every study throughout history has shown that driving behavior underground is not the best way to separate it from violence and abuse.

http://www.liberator.net/articles/prostitution.html#crimedata

He has a good collection of data on the subject.

[EOTE]

18. Beating up prostitutes would be illegal regardless of whether prostitution is legalized.

Just thought you might want to know that.

[WatsonT]

28. It is weird, the assumption

that if we were to legalize prostitution we must also be legalizing all the tangential stuff related to it: like drug abuse, violent pimps, violent johns, etc.

I don't see the logic in that assumption.

Much like I can open a liquor store now without investing in goons and machine guns, legalized prostitution would be quite different from what we have now.

[EOTE]

34. People have lots of crazy assumptions.

Same thing with marijuana. People think that if marijuana were legalized, there would be pushers on every street corner trying to get their kids hooked. They don't realize that the situation now is far closer to that. Legalized generally means regulated, and regulation generally means that these issues become fewer, not greater.

But some people think that legalized prostitution means legalized rape. Those people tend not to do much thinking to begin with.

[WatsonT]

35. Absolutely

100% agree.

Legalized pot is the best way to keep kids off it (sellers would risk losing their license) to make sure it is safe (companies would be vulnerable to lawsuits) and of course raise revenue via taxes.

It would also take millions of dollars from various criminals and syndicates.

[whathehell]

56. When you start working as a prostitute..

Maybe you can dispel the author of her "crazy" ideas.:eyes:

[LadyHawkAZ]

72. I have...

want to hear what I have to say about it?

I guarantee you won't like it.

[whathehell]

75. But I wasn't asking you, was I?

Nonetheless, if you have a real Happy Hooker story to tell,

I'm sure many here would be MORE than happy to hear it.

[LadyHawkAZ]

110. Apparently the concept of "public forum"

went right over your head. Next time you have a question you don't actually want answered, PM it.

I'm fascinated by how willing you are to denigrate a sex worker story sight unseen when you know it won't support your position, especially after your spirited defense of the girl in the story, who did. That's mighty condescending of you, sir. One might almost say hypocritical, if one were being rude.

[Cerridwen]

111. I'd like to hear your story.

I'll warn you, though, there are many posters on this forum who scream bloody murder that a woman should have full autonomy over her own body...until she charges for it or produces too many babies from it. Then all hell breaks loose; as you can see.

If you're willing to take that on, I'd like to read your story.

[LadyHawkAZ]

113. I'm used to it

There's a subset of people who only want to hear from prostitutes when they have stories of pimps, beatings and rapes. They get a shot of titillation AND self-righteousness all in one dose. Someone saying "It's just a job, y'know?" gives them a buzzkill.

I worked in Vegas, 1989-90 and 1998-2001. I had a reasonably regular clientele by the end, but I started out a street worker like the rest. For those looking for horror stories, stop reading here- no pimp, no beatings, no rapes, no drug or alcohol abuse, and only one piece of drama. It was a job. The hours were good, the money was good, the work was not difficult. I was straight and not working for anyone, so I could be choosy about who I went with. Get a bad vibe from the person? Turn it down. Don't want to wear a condom? Walk away. There are hundreds of men out looking for a girl, you'll get another guy. It really is that simple, IF you are working for yourself. It doesn't entirely take the danger out of getting in cars with strangers, but it cuts it down a good deal. I have no diseases and no criminal record, and am obviously still alive. As a bonus, I believe I met the man with the world's smallest functioning penis, which probably shouldn't be funny but is.

And that's basically all there is to my story- I went to work (toward the end, this was mostly pager-based) and worked, and went home. Most of the guys were quite nice. No real drama up till the end, when the last guy to pick me up turned out to be a crackhead and tried to kidnap me. I quit street work after that, and left the business entirely when I moved away.

Pretty boring, eh? It really is just a job. Not a job for everyone, but no job is for everyone.

Tip for men going to Vegas: the girls you see on the north end of the Strip, with the short dresses and heels? Don't even look at them twice. Most are bait cops; the rest are on some form of drug and you'll be out more money than you think. The ones you want will be dressed like everyone else. Look for skinny jeans and comfortable shoes, with a sexy blouse. You're welcome.

I have happy stories and horror stories, but they are other people's stories, not mine. I had friends in the Pahrump brothels, a lot of the happy stories come from them. I know one street worker who was murdered in a drug deal, two disappeared and I don't know what happened to them. I think someone mentioned it above: criminal activity tends to cluster, and then people die. But I'm sure that's much better for them than legalization, since God forbid we look tolerant of the criminal activity that we created by making it illegal in the first place... You'd think that a policy that has been a failure for thousands of years would be due for review by now.

I'm open to questions if you have any. I gave you a general overview, but if there's something specific you want to know, feel free to ask.

[Cerridwen]

117. No questions. Interesting read.

Pretty much what my other friends have told me about their time in the business. I went to college with one friend who got her money for college working much as you described. No college debt for her and then she was off to Berkley to get a law degree. Others have been dancers; some just danced a couple others went on "dates."

I'm born and raised in Vegas. I actually thought about going into the business at one point; as a dancer at least. I decided I wasn't pretty enough and went into cocktails for a long, hellish while instead. Looking back, I should have charged and forgotten cocktails. :)

Thanks for replying and sharing.

I about died laughing at your tip for men.

Another tip for men coming to Vegas; that beautiful woman hanging all over you at the Blackjack or Craps table; she's after your money; you ain't all that. Not my advice, btw, advice from head of security at one of the major hotels.

[LadyHawkAZ]

118. Oh god you poor thing

I bow to you in respect. Cocktails is IMO the single worst job in the city. Good money, though.

I can't walk in heels, stone sober, with nothing in my hands, without doing an epic faceplant at some point, never mind all day long with a loaded tray.

[Cerridwen]

120. In some ways, I lucked out.

I worked in casinos that heels weren't a requirement; our union was pretty strong back then. Yay! The whole tray and cleaning ashtrays thing was, well, much as you described it. :) I had more trouble when I was serving food from trays; I "baptised" the kitchen first tray I loaded. Drinks are easier to carry the plates of food. LOL

Thanks, though. I bet several heads exploded reading a sex worker thinking cocktails is awful. LOL My funny bone is tingling away.

[LadyHawkAZ]

122. LOL my job had better hours

and comfy shoes :)

And less drunk assholes.

[Cerridwen]

123. And you made better money.

Damn! I think I chose wrong that time. :D

[defendandprotect]

200. Well, there are many questions -- we have males becoming addicted to internet porn, for one ...

and we have what they are learning from this violent pornography now being

fostered upon women in our society. I'm sure you noted the lawsuit vs Yale --

and the frat boys there proclaiming loudly that "No means Yes -- and that Sex

means anal sex." The pornography industry is simply propaganda vs women and is

being used as any other rightwing propaganda has been used over millennia to do

harm to citizens -- from Jews, to Women, from African Amereicans to Homosexuals.

The average and totally available internet porn offers all kinds of violence

against women in seeking to degrade women.

More and more young women report being pressured by boyfriends to engage in the

kind of forceful and violent sex being shown in pornography.

And, I'm reciting these things just to try to make clear that there is a line which

comes down on every issue -- where a good becomes an evil and vice versa.

Those who wish to exploit and profit and enslave find that propaganda is also helpful

in dehumanizing their intended victims.

Having said those things -- and because I've always thought that legalization would

be preferable -- it becomes more and more obvious that exploiters will always up the

ante -- and I think we are still quite behind in understanding what's really happening

and what needs to be done. I'm even more negative on thinking we have the political

wherewithal to even protect against kidnappings for any purpose -- but especially for

sex slavery -- as we don't seem to have the political wherewithal to protect ourselves

from much these days. And, certainly our elected representatives are not performing

as they should be.

[bluestate10]

206. You view on porn is distorted.

Porn is not regulated. Regulation in the porn business is self regulation. Like prostitution, there are above board porn purveyors and suppliers that are human scum. Like prostitution, the solution to abuse of women and children in porn is regulation by governments, not self regulation by individuals that have a pure profit motive.

[whathehell]

119. Apparently, the concept of "reading the post"

went right over your head.

Please tell me how I "denigrated" you.

Really...Can you tell me?

The fact is, I encouraged you to tell your story.

Is that "denigrating"?...Or do you just need something to whine about?

[LadyHawkAZ]

121. The fact that you referred to it as

"a real Happy Hooker story" which is not sarcastic in any way at all /sarcasm, immediately after stating that you didn't want to hear it, because you weren't initially speaking to me (and therefore my story apparently had no value). You didn't encourage me to say anything, in fact you made it perfectly clear that you weren't interested. For a demonstration of encouragement, see Cerridwen's post. Any more comments?

[whathehell]

124. Yes I do have more comments, dear

I see the charges against me have been knocked down a bit from "denigrating" to simply "sarcastic".

It's nice to see that calling you out on the hyperbole caused you to dial it back a bit.

You are, however, still clinging to the fiction that "I didn't want to hear from you", although, again, I did TELL you to give us your story...

My initial remark concerning the fact that I had not asked you WAS due to:

1. the fact that the poster I DID direct the comment to was a male who was acting like

he knew what being a prostitute was about...That's why I questioned his experience....Get it?

2. You promised me a story I "wouldn't like"....and that didn't sound very "friendly" either.

Again, I did, nonetheless, express interest in your story, and what's really worth noting here

is that you still have NOT told it...Are you waiting for the "Welcome Wagon" or something?...Or

were you simply not expecting to have your bluff called?

The "offense" over the "happy hooker" remark seems a tad overdone...If you really ARE a sex worker (and I'm beginning to have big doubts about that)

I imagine you'd be accustomed to much worse.

Stick your "encouragement" and "demonstrations"...Tell your story or

stop whining....You've taken up enough time.








or the mild sarcasm duh, as you said, this IS a public forum and others might have.


Again, " because you weren't initially speaking to me (and therefore my story apparently had no value). You didn't encourage me to say anything, in fact you made it perfectly clear that you weren't interested".

For a demonstration of encouragement, see Cerridwen's post. Any more comments?and you can take all the sarcasm you want from that.

[LadyHawkAZ]

126. Nope, no downgrade

...sorry. The two are not mutually exclusive. It's just as denigrating as calling me "dear". And while it's fun watching you try to patronize me, this could go on all night and frankly, it's getting boring. Onward...

1) since you seem to think only prostitutes know what prostitution is about, what's your experience level? Are you a current prostitute? Or a former?

2) I was correct, was I not? You didn't like it, to the point where you're now all but calling me a liar.

And I did tell it, it's right above as I'm sure you noticed. Post #113. I'm happy to answer any questions you may have or expand on any portion you need.

I wasn't "offended", I was amused. I don't know you. This is an anonymous forum, and a general discussion. It takes a whole lot more than that to offend me. What amused me, before you ask, was how quick you were to dismiss my story, sight unseen, after you'd JUST finished saying that only the view of a prostitute mattered. Believe it or not, that response is not unique to you. It's downright common, in fact, as is questioning a woman's credentials if she doesn't have a rape/pimp/beating/drugs story to thrill the audience with (see my comments in #113 on that syndrome). This has happened to me a lot. It was offensive the first time it happened, but that was years ago. This has never stopped me from replying. I rarely hold out hope of changing the mind of the person I'm posting to, since in general they wouldn't be posting what they're posting if facts were important to them, but other people do read these conversations and they might be more open minded.

And yep, I got sarcasm, I gave it back to ya. When in Rome, etc.

I will now take a couple of hours break, go work out, and allow you time to read, or re-read, my post to Cerridwen and post any questions you might have. Enjoy.

[whathehell]

130. Yeah, right..

Just as your offense has now turned to "amusement", lol.

Keep going, honey...Someone else may find you

more interesting than I do.


Buh bye.:hi:

[LadyHawkAZ]

136. Buh-bye

...next time you have no clue about your subject matter, feel free to not comment.

[whathehell]

137. Buh-bye

Next time you don't know a "sir" from a "madam" please do the same!

[bluestate10]

208. How about this. You are being a condescending jackass. You

challenged people to prove your bullshit wrong and when a person that has real life experience stepped forward, you dismissed her and her experience.

[bluestate10]

202. You asked for someone that had worked the role. When you got

a person, you became dismissive. I read a post from a DU member that has your viewpoint, he claimed that men that think prostitution should be legalized and regulated were being paternalistic. Yet, a person that has worked the business offers her opinion and you tell her to essentially STFU.

[EOTE]

76. Actually, I can do that right now.

Do you disagree with anything I've said, or are you just throwing out snark for its own sake?

[whathehell]

78. Are you working as a prostitute?

That was the question.

[WatsonT]

83. Are you?

Is it your contention that the only people who can have input on this, who can look at the data and come to the logical conclusion, are prostitutes?

My how you've moved those goalposts.

First: "legal prostitution is bad for women", to "well you have an ingrained opinion and won't listen to me" to "you have to be an actual prostitute to say anything" to "well ok you are an actual prostitute but not the one I was talking to".

Moving goal posts is typically a sign of being wrong but unwilling to admit it.

[EOTE]

91. Actually, that wasn't the question at all.

In fact, you haven't asked that question until now. Not that the answer has any bearing on this conversation at all, but my answer is; Not currently.

[EOTE]

102. When you become a Grand Wizard of the KKK...

then maybe you can dispel David Duke of his "crazy" ideas. What's that? You don't need to share someone's occupation in order to comment on them? Why, that can't be!

[defendandprotect]

195. And I'm sure those prostitutes are as well protected by law enforcement ...

as let's say our banks are - or our drugstores --

or even the guy selling frankfurters under an umbrella?

[whathehell]

11. Do you have "dog in this game", as it were?....If not, simply re-read post. #9.

Legalizing prostitution apparently does NOT safeguard the "whores".

When one is so socially despised (and no level of "legalization" will change that)

a lot of sick, violent people want to hurt you.

[WatsonT]

14. I do not have a 'dog in this game'

nice innuendo though, thanks.

I just realize that A) decriminalizing harmless behavior is a better solution than cracking down on it (see our drug war) and B) you shouldn't be able to tell people what they may or may not do with their bodies.

All the data I've seen shows that women are in general better off as legal prostitutes than illegal ones.

"Legalizing prostitution apparently does NOT safeguard the "whores".

When one is so socially despised (and no level of "legalization" will change that)"

Perhaps calling them whores isn't helping then. Being looked down upon is a pretty recent and localized phenomenon and in no way represents the general trend throughout history.

"a lot of sick, violent people want to hurt you."

So we should set laws based on what sick violent people may do? Best outlaw leaving the house then. Hey don't women who dress a certain way often get targeted by these people? Best we set up a dress code too.

Prohibition provides protection for these sickos because it offers another layer of insulation against arrest. Since they're already meeting clandestinely and the prostitutes are breaking the law it's easier to get away with other crimes.

This may shock you but speakeasys were not always the safest places. But oddly enough when legalized and regulated they became much safer.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[whathehell]

46. Sorry, honey....but I wouldn't call anything 2000 years old "relatively recent" either.

I was actually GOING to tag on "Yes, I know about the vestal virgin" stuff

but I didn't realize you'd be desperate enough to go there!!


BTW, I'm Sixty ONE years old and Christianity is about two thousand and One..Duh.:rofl:

[WatsonT]

50. Ah good, so we have deteremined that your understanding of history

is the problem.

You think all that ended exactly 2000 years ago, worldwide?


But even if it did, Jesus was born and poof thousands of years of tradition were eliminated worldwide, that would still be fairly recent.

Human civilization has been around, what 10,000 years or so?

Meaning that even if this uniform and sudden change you imagine took place 2,000 years ago that would still be the oddity in our history.

But I suppose you just go with whatever your pastor tells you. . . .

[whathehell]

52. Um..No. While I appreciate your entirely obvious efforts at appearing "worldly",

when it comes to history, I've lived more than you've learned.


Whatever your "long view" of history, dear, what's pertinent here is

the fact that the "vestal virgin" concept is not

holding in large scale western societies which

criminalize and disrespect utterly the "careers" of prostitutes.


When you can talk reality instead of harking back a couple millenniums, lol

maybe we can talk.

In the meantime, I don't do remedial education....Buh bye:hi:

[EOTE]

77. All that living and you've learned so darned little.

I've seen enough of your version of history to know that it's sorely lacking. This is why Texas needs to get out of the history book business.

[whathehell]

80. When the entirety of a life's learning can be evaluated by one's opinion on the single issue

of legalized prostitution,

Someone may determine that evaluation

to originate from a place within your anus.


Until then, forgive us if we fail to take your earnest conclusion seriously:rofl:

[EOTE]

92. The bulk of what you've said on this issue has been entirely unfactual.

You try to come in here as an authority on this issue and you don't even know so much as the recent history of prostitution. Pretty much all your notions are invalid. You certainly are quite adept at talking out of your ass.

[whathehell]

104. Don't get your panties in a bunch, dear...I've said nothing others here haven't already said

So much is "unfactual" to those who don't want to hear it, Lol.

No doubt YOU are the "authority"!

As for "talking out my ass", let's say that after reading your posts,

I've decided it's better than being the ass who is talking!:rofl:


Goodbye and good luck!

[EOTE]

107. Still won't even attempt to explain the logic of this for me?

Much easier to fling insults, isn't it? I've already proven a number of things you've said to be false. I see you like to take a cue from John Kyl with your "Well over 90%" remark, huh? So easy to grab statistics from your ass when you have nothing to back up your assertions, isn't it?

[WatsonT]

84. Indeed, apparently you've lived an entire life

without learning anything at all.

An impressive feat no doubt.

"Whatever your "long view" of history, dear, what's pertinent here is

the fact that the "vestal virgin" concept is not

holding in large scale western societies which

criminalize and disrespect utterly the "careers" of prostitutes"

Moving goal posts. First it was never acceptable anywhere, now it's "here and now" unacceptable.

"When you can talk reality instead of harking back a couple millenniums, lol

maybe we can talk."

Right, so history goes back until . . . when exactly?

"In the meantime, I don't do remedial education....Buh bye"

More projection.

[EOTE]

100. Is that one of those statements that's not intended to be factually accurate?

Do we have another John Kyl in training here? Well, if you say that well over 90% were sexually abused, it must be true. Oh wait:
http://womensissues.about.com/od/rapesexualassault/a/Wuornos.htm

But that's OK, I'm sure you didn't mean for that to be a factual statement. Facts are so cumbersome.

[defendandprotect]

194. Yes -- and the slave trade is just providing a wider arena for kidnapping and

sexual abuse of teenagers and women -- and young males --

who knows re children, actually?

And, via pornography and its industry, beyond the vile propaganda of the

industry itself which seeks to debase females and make them contemptible

in the eyes of males and worthy of VIOLENCE ----- is the constant and

continuing efforts of the industry to nor only make vile and violent sexual

behavior towards women in pornography seem more "natural" in the real world,"

but to make degradation of women and human sexuality seem more "normal" --

and to make sexual violence against women seem more "natural" within our society

and to males. That's the role that right wing propaganda has always played --

to degrade, dehumanize -- and to create intolerance for and violence against a

class of people.

We have seen this in what has happened at Yale with men shouting "No means Yes! --

and Anal Sex" --

We have seen this in the many movies which depict featured players viewing Hustler

or internet porn -- and more. Recall watching a movie with Hugh Grant -- "Love Actually"

I think -- where one of the featured couples in the movie are porn stars.

And, contrarily they show us what fun -- and how innocent -- it all is!!


Further -- there is also the dedicated mission of this pornography industry to

move those already interested in seeing women sexually debased and inured to the

callousness of their treatment and the violence against them, to begin to move

those males to interest in children's pornography. This is done by the use of

more and more younger "looking" females until the new addiction is formed.

[ChazII]

3. 'Johns' need to have harsher fines, imho.

This is one case that also shows that there are victims in the sex trafficking industry. Good for Hatcher and may she be successful in her goal.

[Lance_Boyle]

13. 'an abusive marriage led her to...'

Of course, being a woman and therefor having no capacity for rational thought, Hatcher could not bear any of the responsibility for *her choices* that "led her" to drugs and prostitution. It's all about the bad man who hurt the poor dear and FORCED her into that life. Why, there ought to be LAWS to protect this weaker gender... :eyes:

[houstonintc]

16. Good post

Hilarious stuff indeed.

In truth Prostitution should be legal and regulated just like Marijuana.

[whathehell]

21. Yes, and in fact she probably ASKED that John to beat her up!

Give me a break..:eyes:

Whatever her "responsibilities" for getting into prostitution,

I really do doubt she was "responsible"

for the sick fuck beating her, don't you?

Sorry...but most men (this john, her husband, etc.) generally ARE physically

stronger than women and too many are eager to take advantage of the fact.


The question is this: Assuming prostitution DOES remain legal, shouldn't the man

be penalized and/or educated to the realities as much as the woman involved?

Or, barring legalization, do you think that women alone should continue to "take the hit",

no pun intended.

The women you could obviously care less about....Bye

[Lance_Boyle]

22. the article says the marriage, not the person, was responsible.

Whatever the circumstances, she chose to do the drugs, and then she chose to prostitute herself. The article says that this intangible concept - the marriage - made it all happen. No responsibility at all is assigned to the woman who made the choices she did. If that's not dehumanizing I don't know what is - the author apparently sees women as so weak-minded that a mere abstract concept (marriage) can control their minds and bodies against their wills and force them to take drugs and prostitute themselves. The author would probably also believe wholeheartedly that it was that bad dog responsible for Son of Sam, except that he was a man, so responsible for his own actions...

[whathehell]

25. Um..I think you're inferring just a tad too much from that one sentence

and you're just a little TOO willing to dismiss everything she

has to say on that basis and in doing so

you've avoided addressing the major point of the article:

Do you think men should be as responsible for prostitution, legal or illegal, as women?

That's what I'd like to know.:hi:

[nomb]

26. Possessed a college degree and 17 years of experience working in a corporate job

"I had a degree. I had a supportive family."


I'm sorry, but as good as her work may be - there are lots and lots of red flags on the field. Lots.

[whathehell]

44. Not really my argument....I believe.It was taken up to avoid the obvious.

The complicity of the author is not what's being argued,

[Lance_Boyle]

32. Male prostitutes should be as responsible for themselves as female prostitutes, yes.

I don't think any one gender is "responsible for" the existence of the *phenomenon* of prostitution. I think you are getting at a chicken/egg or supply/demand question and I don't have a clear answer on that. In the absence of demand the phenomenon doesn't really exist - there may be *offers* of sex for money, but no prostitution takes place unless the offer is accepted. In the absence of supply you have the same thing - the phenomenon only exists as a hypothetical, and no prostitution takes place unless someone comes around to supply what is in demand.

Clear as mud, right?

[whathehell]

43. I see...In an environment of illegality, You think male CLIENTS should be off the hook.

[Lance_Boyle]

48. Not at all - hiring is a crime and solicitation is a crime - both should be prosecuted

where they are illegal. That said, I do not believe that prostitution should be illegal. Makes regulating and securing very difficult, and prohibitions against the sexual behaviors of consenting adults are just plain ludicrous on their face.

[defendandprotect]

196. No -- she said an "abusive" marriage --

[sudopod]

49. Well, the important thing is that you've found a way to feel superior to a prostitute.

Congratulations!

[P. Galore]

64. Brilliant!!!!

Love it!

[closeupready]

94. lol, yeah, right?

:hi:

[defendandprotect]

197. Exactly -- thank you!!

[Shagbark Hickory]

33. This is like blaming undoc workers because US companies hire them.

Going after the johns isn't going to solve anything.

[w4rma]

79. You are backward. The pimps and johns are the employers. The prostitutes are the undoc workers.(nt)

[Shagbark Hickory]

81. OK so arrest all the people that by fruit and vegetables and buy poultry products.

[w4rma]

88. Hmm. if buyers know that the folks that picked them were illegal, then that is a good solution. (nt)

[Shagbark Hickory]

109. So if a john is unaware that their prostitute is a slave, then they should not be held liable,

is that what you're saying?
Only if they know they are illegal or they are being held captive in the sex trade.

[MrScorpio]

36. I say allow sex workers to organize

Create Red Light districts that are clean, well lit and with ample security in place to protect the workers.

Provide medical care and established guidelines of conduct for the johns. Give the sex workers the last say in whether they'll provide a service or not.

Do it the way the Europeans to it.

Otherwise this underground fashion that we continue to conduct ourselves will be bad for all involved.

[seabeyond]

37. sweden changed and the other european countries are looking to sweden because it doesnt work. nt

[Yavin4]

38. Is It Really Working in Sweden?

Or has the new law merely cut down on the streetwalkers while the business continues on the internet. I think that it's foolhardy to believe that any government can completely stop prostitution. It's going to continue. Even in highly repressive nations, it continues.

The best way to handle it is indeed to legalize it, and regulate it. Then, if you're worried about human trafficking, you can just pass a regulation banning anyone who is not a citizen from engaging in the business.

[nomb]

40. Your two paragraphs...

Paragraph #1:

"I think that it's foolhardy to believe that any government can completely stop prostitution. It's going to continue."

Paragraph #2:

"Then, if you're worried about human trafficking, you can just pass a regulation banning anyone..."


Although vague enough to squeeze out a loophole, I wonder how the one law is doomed to fail while the other will simply stop any ill-effects.... :)


No ill-feelings intended.

[Yavin4]

54. The Same Way That Making Porn for Adults Legal Lead to The Marginalization of Child Porn

When the porn industry was declared legal by the SCOTUS in the 1970s, that de-coupled consensual adult porn from child porn. You could make an honest, legal profit with adult consensual sex. Doing so, completely marginalized the worst elements of porn.

The same could happen with prostitution and drugs. Making them legal and well-regulated marginalizes the worst elements of the industry because the profit motive would be on the legitimate side of the business.

[defendandprotect]

198. And now the porn industry has approval to use younger and younger "looking"

females in their pornography for the purpose of turning porn users' interest

into interest over to children's porn and addicting them to it --

[whathehell]

45. You don't seem to realize

that "citizens" are trafficking and BEING trafficked right now.

[WatsonT]

51. And is that more or less common as a result of legalizing it?

No doubt people still get killed over alcohol in the US.

But at lower rates than during prohibition.

[whathehell]

53. Do your research and find out...

Unless, as I suspect, you've already made up your mind, duh.:hi:

[WatsonT]

82. I have done my research

and it shows lower rates of violence and abuse against sex workers in places where it is legal.

You two have made the claim that the opposite is true. I've asked for sources on that and received nothing.

So again: projection on your part. *You* have already made up your mind and *you* are unwilling to do the research.

[Yavin4]

55. That's Because the Industry Is Illegal

Again, see my Adult porn example above.

[whathehell]

59. Evidence suggests otherwise..

Again, see post number 9....Even if it's NOT what you want to believe.

Seabeyond:

"you are wrong. the countries that have legalized prostitution have found an increase in criminal
activity. and it leaves the police hampered because it is legal, harder to get at the criminal. child and sex slavery has increased in these environments. in sweden they changed their laws where prostitution was not criminalized and the john criminalized. the crime and prostitution has decreased significantly. the other countries that have it legalized are looking to sweden"

[Yavin4]

60. Does That Argue Against Legalization Or Better Regulation?

The abuses in the Netherlands do not argue for criminalization. They argue for better regulation which is what is happening now. The fact that these abuses were discovered is testament to prostitution being legal. There are people in jail for trafficking in the Netherlands because it's legal.

If it were illegal, as is the case almost worldwide, it would be very difficult to find and prosecute traffickers.

[seabeyond]

65. 70% Rise in German Sex Trafficking Due to Legal Prostitution?

German officials are concerned about the significant increase in human trafficking cases over the past five years. In the past year alone, trafficking cases have risen by 11%. The victim population is especially disturbing, with at least 20% of victims being underage. Of those, 41 victims identified were under 14. Much of the trafficking involves women from Eastern Europe and African women and girls being brought into Germany and forced into prostitution, but at least a third of those arrested for trafficking crimes were German nationals. That means in several cases, Germans who know the law and know how to exploit it are using their knowledge to force women into prostitution.

Prostitution and brothels were legalized in Germany in 2002, in part to reduce sex trafficking, provide safer conditions, and remove some of the stigma from the industry. That policy has arguably failed on all counts. Sex trafficking in Germany has grown since prostitution and brothels were legalized. And advocacy groups have claimed that the law has done little to make the industry safer or reduce stigma. In fact, this law has seemed so unpopular with everyone on all sides of the prostitution debate, that I wonder how on earth it got passed in the first place.

There are a number of reasons human trafficking could be growing in Germany other than the legalization of prostitution. German authorities could be getting better at identifying and investigating trafficking, which is probably the case. The global economic crisis could be driving more traffickers to operate in Germany as opposed to their less-wealthy home countries. Demand for commercial sex in Germany could be outstripping supply in a major way, with traffickers making up the difference. All of these, as well as other reasons, probably affect amount of human trafficking in Germany.

But what we are beginning to see is a pattern of human trafficking, violence against women, and exploitation in countries which have legalized prostitution. Despite legal prostitution in Australia, 90% of the commercial sex industry in Australia operates illegally, including sex trafficking. The Netherlands has been steadily closing more and more of their red light districts since they legalized prostitution in 2000, citing increased sex trafficking as a reason. And now Germany, despite legalized brothels, is seeing a huge increase in sex trafficking.

http://news.change.org/stories/70-rise-in-german-sex-trafficking-due-to-legal-prostitution

[Yavin4]

69. From Your Own Research

There are a number of reasons human trafficking could be growing in Germany other than the legalization of prostitution. German authorities could be getting better at identifying and investigating trafficking, which is probably the case.

Maybe German authorities are getting better at identifying and investigating trafficking BECAUSE IT'S LEGAL. When it was illegal, it was harder to identify the traffickers.

[seabeyond]

66. Legal Prostitution in Australia a "Failure"

The University of Queensland Working Group on Human Trafficking recently released a report stating that the prostitution laws in Australia had failed. Since 1999, women in Australia have had the option of working legally in licensed brothels or on their own. The hope was that women with an entrepreneurial spirit and a passion for commercial sex would set up their own businesses, and make everything safe, legal, and regulated. That hasn't happened.

What has happened, instead, is entrepreneurial pimps have lured and trafficked Asian women to Australia and set up illegal brothels with lower prices. Trafficking is "booming" in Queensland, and there are few laws to help protect women who are lured or coerced into prostitution against their will. And as legal brothels try and compete with the trafficking boom, they cut costs, which often involves cutting freedom and benefits for women. Even in the legal, liscenced brothels of Queensland, women have reported being coerced into working under unfair conditions or against their will.

Australian advocates and policy-makers are offering a number of solutions to this problem, everything from increasing the police force looking for illegal brothels to making the legal brothel's fees lower to adding new legal protections for immigrant women in the commercial sex industry. The one thing everyone seems to agree on is that legal prostitution in Australia isn't working to protect women. But how should it be fixed?

Here's my vote: Legal prostitution in Australia isn't working to protect women because legal prostitution doesn't work to protect women. It will always be cheaper to set up an illegal brothel full of slave labor than to pay fees and salaries and health care to licensed workers. As long as there are men demanding cheap commercial sex, there will be traffickers willing to supply it. And where there is a legal market, there will be more men demanding sex, though not always at legal market prices.

http://news.change.org/stories/legal-prostitution-in-australia-a-failure

[Yavin4]

70. Again, Legalization Makes It Easier for Authorities to Identfy Trafficking

Do you honestly believe that making it illegal will stop the traffickers?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

129. So causation doesn't come into this for you?

It isn't too hard to identify trafficking, legal or not. Legalization just makes it an immigration enforcement issue and removes most of the risk for the traffickers and pimps. Making a case against the traffickers is almost impossible since in most European countries the trafficked women are deported immediately and often willingly. Great Britain has begun to offer work permits to women who will cooperate in the investigation of their traffickers but most of Europe just puts them on the next plane home few questions asked.

So why are women trafficked to the west for prostitution?

Well, it is the funniest thing... it turns out remarkably few women in the west actually desire to receive the bodily fluids of numerous strange men in exchange for money. So, much like colonialists who were not keen on picking cotton and tobacco as their chosen trade they found an alternate source of labor for this undesirable role.

Not seeing a problem? None at all?

[Yavin4]

145. How Does Making Prostitution Illegal Prevent Trafficking?

In countries where prostitution is llegal and the government is repressive, there's still trafficking.

See Saudi Arabia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_Saudi_Arabia
See Cuba: http://news.change.org/stories/human-trafficking-in-cuba-denial-is-a-river-in-havana

According to a 2005 U.S. State Dept study, the worst countries for human trafficking are all those where prostitution is illegal:

With respect to human trafficking, Saudi Arabia was designated, together with Bolivia, Ecuador, Qatar, United Arab Emirates, Burma, Jamaica, Venezuela, Cambodia, Kuwait, Sudan, Cuba, North Korea, and Togo, as a Tier 3 country by the United States Department of State in its 2005 Trafficking in Persons Report required by the Victims of Trafficking and Violence Protection Act of 2000 on which this article was originally based. Tier 3 countries are " countries whose governments do not fully comply with the maximum standards and are not making significant efforts to do so." The 2006 report shows some effort by the Kingdom to address the problems, but continues to classify the Kingdom as a Tier 3 country. The report recommends, "The government should enforce existing Islamic laws that forbid the mistreatment of women, children, and laborers..." Both the 2007 and the 2008 Trafficking in Persons Reports by the United States Department of State designate Saudi Arabia as a Tier 3 country.<1>

Your argument is that women in the west don't want to be prostitutes, so trafficking fills that demand. Well, if it's illegal, does not the same rules of supply and demand apply? If not more so?

Again, how does making it illegal prevent trafficking?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

151. Legalization removes virtually all the risk to the traffickers

since the prostitutes themselves are simply treated as though they are illegal immigrants in most circumstances rather than victims of human trafficking. The risks to the traffickers of women where prostitution is illegal is much, much greater.

[Yavin4]

153. If What You Are Saying Is True

then human trafficking would not exist where prostitution is illegal. However, as I have cited to you, human trafficking in sex work is alive and well in countries where prostitution is illegal. Look at Saudi Arabia. It's illegal there, and the laws are strict and repressive against prostitution. Yet, Saudi Arabia is ranked by our State Dept as one of the worst places for human trafficking.

Your argument runs counter to the evidence.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

154. Your argument runs counter to human decency

One can not reasonably assume that the prohibition of prostitution will prevent all human trafficking, however legalization of prostitution removes virtually all the risk of serious criminal prosecution from the traffickers. This leads to the victims of the sex trade being victimized twice. First by the traffickers and then by the immigration system that lumps them in with all the other illegal immigrants without a thought to the circumstances that delivered them to their shores.

It could be this just doesn't really bother you, but it is a libertarian fantasy to believe the sex trade does anything other than brutalize an extreme majority of its participants.

[Yavin4]

159. "legalization of prostitution removes virtually all the risk of serious criminal prosecution"???

Really??? By establishing legal and legitimate businesses, the government would then gain access to the workers in the sex industry. The government would be able to provide health care and counseling to those workers in the industry. See the Nevada brothels as an example.

Prohibition builds a barrier between the workers and the government because the government views them as criminals, and as such, the workers cannot use the government to protect themselves. You want everything to be underground where the criminals can gain huge economic incentives by exploiting sex workers.

When you remove prohibitions and allow for legitimate business models to evolve, you take away the economic power of the criminal element. This has been the case with alcohol, porn, and topless bars. Once they were allowed to exist and become legitimate, well-regulated businesses, the criminal element faded away.

The best way to help sex workers would be to make their trade legal and well-regulated so that the workers in the trade have government protection from any abuse. Treating them like criminals serves no purpose other than to make people like yourself feel like your doing some "good", when you're doing nothing of the sort.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

166. why don't you finish the quote "to the traffickers"

Women will be trafficked for sex whether prostitution is legal or not - however when prostitution is legal the enforcement side of the equation falls entirely on the victims of sex trafficking who are treated as illegal immigrants while the traffickers themselves face few if any consequences for their crimes.

There will never be a large enough indigenous supply of uncoerced prostitutes for any variation of their regulated market of willing participants to exist. Very few normal people grow up wishing to gargle the bodily fluids of strange men for a living. And of those enthusiastic participants they are serving the boutique side of the sex trade which is so small as to be irrelevant to the discussion.

I have worked DIRECTLY with victims of human trafficking and the sex trade, i'm not very interested in libertarian rants on the subject.

[whathehell]

68. I honestly believe the only thing that most men here are willing to "argue"

for is whatever gives THEM the most options, what's best for women be damned.

[Yavin4]

71. In the "Research" That Has Been Presented, It Actually Argues for Legalization

In every example cited, authorities have been able to better identify traffickers. Every one. Why? Because it's legal. That's the whole point. Make it legal so that we can identify and stop the bad people.

By making it illegal, how can you ever identify the traffickers?

[whathehell]

74. The "Research" presented here does NOT argue for it.

but if you refuse to READ it, there is clearly nothing to say.

Again..The only "outcomes" I believe you and most men

here are interested in are those that

preserve and/or maximize male options.

Goodbye.

[Yavin4]

85. I Did Read It, and I Even Cited It

The German article even said that the authorities are better able to identify trafficking. Maybe that's because it's legal, and they're getting cooperation from the people in the industry.

"The only "outcomes" I believe you and most men here are interested in are those that preserve and/or maximize male options."

Interesting that you believe that only women are prostitutes or that women don't patronize prostitutes as well. Interesting.

[houstonintc]

87. Men shouldn't have options?

Wait a tick? So this isn't about prostitution this is about men having options now?

[whathehell]

90. Who said that?

The question is, at whose expense?

[houstonintc]

93. You said it...

Or at the very least implied it.

If prostitution is safe and legal why not allow the worlds oldest profession into the light. With proper policing, regulation and oversight the industry would seem to be no problem for anyone save for those who feel male sexual options should be limited... and who believe only men seek the services of prostitutes or that all prostitutes are women.

[whathehell]

95. I didn't say it or imply it..

Perhaps the earth-shaking anxiety that you and

other men seem to feel at the very IDEA of any option being

denied men on the basis of some greater good

for women is, I suspect, what's causing you to

misread my message.

I've no intention of reiterating the viewpoints of myself and

several others here on the legality of prostitution.

Have a nice day.

[houstonintc]

96. Why not have the option?

What is the difference between dating and prostitution? Honestly it's her body, if she chooses to sell it to me one way or another why shouldn't she and I why should I be barred from buying other then appeals to moralistic nonsense?

What is the difference between paying via jewelery, companionship, meals and drinks and paying with direct cash? Ultimately I'm exchanging something for sex in the end. The difference is one doesn't tell me the price and the other does.

How is it "for the greater good" to keep these women in the dark abyss where abuse is unknown, disease rampant and rape constant? At least legal we can police and enforce protections. It is the worlds "oldest profession", I doubt it will ever go away. In fact in my opinion we are all either prostitutes or johns on some level.

[seabeyond]

97. so we are all whores?

thank you for playing. everyone of your posts since being on du....

[houstonintc]

98. Pretty much...

I think on some level there is a business/prostitution aspect to all relationships anyway.

I mean someone can have sex with someone in exchange for anything except for an actual cash price tag. My girlfriend could say "buy me that ring and I'll fuck you", and that would be a perfectly legal thing... me buying her some trinket for sex... but if she asks for a dollar amount it's suddenly a high crime and immoral? And I'm some evil devil for possibly paying that price for sex?

[seabeyond]

99. no wonder you have to buy it. calling all women whores, how many progressive men

on du will challenge your claim that all women are whores

[houstonintc]

101. All humans are whores on some level

How many progressive men are slaves to the cult of political correctness?

Hopefully not many since that stuff is mental poison IMHO.

Emotional bonding, companionship and sex... these are crucial to a relationship. Beyond that two must share their resources and work as a single unit... both me and her have needs and know what they are. I happily share all that I am and have with her and she grants me the things I so deeply desire. Emotional bonding, companionship and sex, she needs them to.

Perhaps saying were both whores trading with one another isn't PC enough for you?

[seabeyond]

103. live in the gutter. not everyone chooses that life. nt

[seaglass]

140. Maybe someday you will meet a woman who won't require payment for having sex with you.

I wonder how your girlfriend likes being called a whore - assuming that you have told her that's how you think of your relationship - prostitute and john.

[houstonintc]

147. Shaming language galore

You PC nuts just love the shaming language... There is no shame in being a whore, a whore is a noble thing to be. More noble then most and probably more honest then most.

On some level I recognize it as being similar or not being dissimilar, you can spare me your hocky appeals and attempts to shame. In any relationship you trade and sacrifice... no matter how altruistic you might be nobody stays in a relationship they get nothing out of.

[seaglass]

148. Now you're being silly. I have no objection to legalizing prostitution

whatsoever however I do call out fools who think there is no difference between the business transaction of a prostitute/john and a relationship between a bf/gf, husband/wife or whatever combo in a CARING relationship.

I see you've toned down your rhetoric a bit recognizing that relationships might include exchanges other than trading something of monetary value for sex.

And btw the "noble whore", that is just goofy, being a prostitute does not confer nobility, the person in the profession may be noble but that is more about the person than the profession.

[whathehell]

105. As I said, I'm not going over it again....Rationalize to your hearts content.

Buh bye.:hi:

[lumberjack_jeff]

167. Advocacy isn't a dirty word. n/t

[defendandprotect]

199. Patriarchy sends them to war and death -- but as long as they are not females, they're happy!!!

And that's the insanity that keeps patriarchy in play!!

And women abused!!

[bluestate10]

63. If you did research, you would see that the sex for sale environment

has a number of tiers. The solution to trafficking is focusing resources where those resources do the most good. I once read in a city newspaper of the case of a highly educated young woman who was a high priced "escort". The FEDs put great effort into tracking her and eventually arresting and trying her. I don't know how the case ended, but the story detailed that the woman was the estranged wife of a rich man and still on good terms with him. To me, the case was an example of the ass backward nature of law enforcement against prostitution. Police and prosecutors spend precious time going after people and cases that will make a splash, bringing down a woman getting a grand an hour from her johns is too typical of where and how federal, state and local authorities focus money and people power. The money spent to entrap a woman who appeared to have had a lot of fight in her would have been better spend tracking down pimps that are running fifteen year old girls and beating the hell out of them if they do not perform. Money being spent jailing the aforementioned type of pimp and the johns that use the services of their sex slaves would have done more for society than taking on a high priced, willing, clear headed and ambitious woman that was likely to beat the charges in court.

[whathehell]

67. If you did research, you'd find that your single "example" is highly untypical

Research the example already given, even if it does NOT promise to

lead to what you might view as an "optimal" siutation for men, i.e. legalized prostitution.

[defendandprotect]

201. Thank you -- think we have a long way to go with these discussions and understanding it all --

[LadyHawkAZ]

73. No, it isn't working in Sweden

The prostitutes there are complaining that the new laws have made their job substantially more dangerous, and the much-touted initial decline has reversed. The program is failing.

[Johonny]

47. I agree

Making the service provider a criminal certainly increases their risk to have harm come to them.


However they legalize it there will always be people that go for a market beyond what is allowed, ie underage, physical abuse...

[grahamhgreen]

114. +1.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

127. The only problem with that (aside from horrifying social values) is...

There isn't a place on earth where any of that has displaced street prostitution, the segment of the sex trade where the most vulnerable are engaged and come to harm, or as it is known in Europe the "car trade".

The segment of the European sex trade idolized by American libertarians is more analogous with call girls than street prostitution which it is held up as a solution to.

[upi402]

42. We have serious problems, yet we beat this dead horse

Or should I say; a horse that never dies and goes away no matter how much you beat it (so to speak).
:blush:

[P. Galore]

58. Prostitution keeps a lot of human trafficking going. It's not 'victimless'. nt

[bluestate10]

61. I go with the decriminalization or legalization advocates.

Trafficking works because the human beings being trafficked either know or are led to believe that they will be arrested and jailed if they go to police for protection. Removing criminal penalties for prostitutes unless they are caught working in restricted areas such as near schools and on neighborhood streets, give abused sex workers a window from which to escape their abusers. Prostitution is not a victim-less crime because societal laws and penalties are set to enforce the second class status of sex workers, many that are being abused and need laws that work to protect them.

[P. Galore]

62. I see your point, but it is not just society's laws that make victims of prostitutes. nt

[w4rma]

89. Agreed: Decriminalize, tax and protect is the best solution. (nt)

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

132. Traffiking works because of supply and demand

The number of uncoerced participants in the sex trade is extremely small, criminals are happy to bring the market to equilibrium.

[Yavin4]

144. "The number of uncoerced participants in the sex trade is extremely small"

Do you have some sort of study or proof of this?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

152. Poverty, abuse, addiction and organized crime are all coercive elements

&If you are actually interested in the subject and not just parroting libertarian platitudes that excuse sexual exploitation and imagine that some tangible number of women actually want to have sex with a dozen random losers and or psychos every day. I would suggest you read "Pathways to prostitution: The chronology of sexual and drug abuse milestones" by Dr. John Potterat et-al.

Excerpted from Abstract:

To paraphrase Ebbinghaus: Prostitution has a long past, but a short history (Ebbinghaus, 1909, p.1). This observation derives from difficulties in obtaining meaningful information from representative samples of prostitutes, who comprise elusive and inconstant populations. In Colorado Springs, Colorado, a metropolitan area with approximately 400,000 persons (1990 census) located 100 kilometers south of Denver, our programs for the control of sexually transmissible diseases (STD) have brought us into quotidian association with the prostitute population since 1970, affording us the opportunity to collect data of public health interest on a large proportion of these women (Potterat, Rothenberg, & Bross, 1979; Potterat, Woodhouse, Muth, & Muth, 1990). Of special interest to us is information that can suggest interventions to reduce the burden of prostitution-associated morbidity: substance abuse and sexually transmissible disease (Centers For Disease Control and Prevention, 1992). Although the association of prostitution with sexual and substance abuse in the United States has long been noted (Goldstein, 1979), data on the chronology of sexual and drug abuse milestones in the lives of prostitute women are inconsistently reported and derived from convenience samples. Goldstein estimated that 40% to 85% of prostitutes were drug users; in addition, he reported that among higher class prostitute women, prostitution tended to precede substance abuse, while in lower class prostitutes, the reverse tended to be true (Goldstein, 1979). James, alluding to data from an unpublished 1976 manuscript, stated that "Prostitution follows addiction in 48% of the subjects, precedes it in 38%, and is simultaneous in 14%" (James, 1977).

Silbert and colleagues interviewed 200 street prostitutes in San Francisco and reported that mean age at coital debut was 13.5 years, 16.1 years for prostitution debut (13 years for juvenile prostitutes and 18 for adults), and 16.9 years for entry into regular prostitution activity (Silbert & Pines, 1982). They subsequently reported that nearly all (95%) in their sample provided histories of illicit drug use. Of these, more than half (55%) admitted to drug use prior to prostitution entry and 30% subsequent to (15% concurrent with) prostitution entry, although ages at substance abuse milestones were not reported (Silbert, Pines, Lynch, 1982). Three fifths (61%) of Silbert's sample reported childhood sexual abuse. This study was replicated in Canada using the same questionnaire on 45 former prostitutes and 45 age-matched controls from the population of Calgary (Bagley & Young, 1987). Their results were similar to those of Silbert's group but, surprisingly, substance abuse data on their subjects were not included in the report. More recently, a study of 51 substance-abusing women working as prostitutes in London during the early 1990s investigated the temporal association between heroin addiction and prostitution (Gossop, Powis, Griffiths, & Strang, 1994). They found that the average age at first heroin injection and first prostitution was similar (19.0 years for heroin vs. 19.2 years for prostitution) and that 44% had used heroin prior to prostitution entry, 26% subsequent to entry, and 30% at about the same time as entry. Regrettably, data on drug abuse other than heroin are incompletely reported.

This doesn't even touch on coercion by poverty on a stand-alone basis or sex trade participation coerced by organized crime.

If you are sincerely interested in the subject I will download it from Jstor for you,

[Yavin4]

162. Again, That Abstract DEFENDS my Point

All that study shows is how badly PROHIBITION of prostitution is NOT working. The people involved in sex work ARE NOT getting the help and counseling that they need because they are deemed as CRIMINALS.

Of course, poverty, addiction, and organized reign in that world because of Prohibition.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

172. So women being coerced into prostitution is A-OK if prostitution is legal... got it.

You talk about "sex work" as if this is something some tangible number of people actually wish to be doing as their chosen career willingly oblivious to how those entangled in this world actually came to be there.

Poverty, addiction, and organized crime are the only reason people participate.

[Yavin4]

176. Are Women Coerced into Porn?

Are they?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

181. Indeed many are, let me tell you about the "family business"

But while you focus on and form your opinion based on the apparent circumstances of "Porn Stars" you neglect to notice and consider the wonderful world of the sizeable "creep with a camcorder" fetish genre, usually filmed in a motel room which my delightful extended family occupies. They look for stupid girls who came to Hollywood with delusions of stardom only to wind-up borderline homeless. They use shills to look for girls with legitimate casting and modelling agencies. In Hollywood you can see desperation a mile away and those are their marks. Poverty is the most coercive force of all.

Sooner or later somebodies daddy is going to go in there with a machine gun, but until then they have a steady stream of borderline homeless "aspiring actresses".

[Yavin4]

183. You Have Problems. Get Help.

I am done with you.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

185. Indeed, the APA just added fostering an aversion to sexual exploitation to DSM-IV

The people with problems are the ones who can rationalize evil in their midst.

[defendandprotect]

203. What are you saying? That sex trafficking isn't a serious problem ...

or that there is no viable solution to it?

[TheBigotBasher]

57. I have never understood

why pay for sex when the bloke next door or lady fivefingers gives it away for free?

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[whathehell]

108. Um, you might want to re-think the "stupid bastids" bit, at least until

you actually read the OP and learn to spell "lose" :evilgrin:

[houstonintc]

106. I say restore prostitutes to their rightful place...

In Ancient Sumer, Babylon and Akkadia and Assyria the Prostitute was holy, sacred and a high station in life.

I say, don't just legalize but legalize and elevate. The prostitute is not lowly but noble in my view.

[grahamhgreen]

115. +1

[Darth_Kitten]

138. Right, because it's great that women who were sexually abused as children choose this profession!

:sarcasm;

If studies show that over 90 percent of them were abused as children?

Yes, anything is sacred and noble if it caters to some loser getting off. :eyes:

[houstonintc]

146. 90%? Is this a factual statement...

Actually, I am very serious. The Prostitute was at one time and in many places the occupier of a fairly high station in society.

As for your 90% statement, sounds John Kyl-esque to me.

As for "losers", are all women like that? After all a lot of woman get guys off, and on some level there is a transaction for it. Be it trading a meal, a drink (Or many), jewelery, or what have you. Your shaming language is just moralistic crap in my book.

[Darth_Kitten]

157. Shaming language? LOL

Your attempt to glorify what really isn't glorious is just self-serving crap in my book. So there.

[houstonintc]

164. I glorify what I wish...

Clearly you don't agree. Honestly I think the prostitute is probably a more honest laborer and providing are more vital service then the many legitimate businesses in this country.

[Darth_Kitten]

187. Providing a more vital service? LOL

Yes, whenever a guy can get off society as a whole benefits. :eyes:

[defendandprotect]

204. Males are encouraged to devalue relationships -- except with a magazine photo -- or internet video!!

Not a lot of time has to be invested in those relationships!!

Masturbation is all and everything!!

Females contaminate the patriarchal atmosphere -- !!

:hi:

[LadyHawkAZ]

149. Do you think there ought to be jail time

for anyone having sex, at any time, with a person who was abused as a child?

How about the abused person? Should they go to jail for having sex with someone, at any time, after being abused as a child?

At what point do you consider them unabused enough, or adult enough, to choose to have sex without jailing either party, and what is your criteria for allowing them that choice?

[Darth_Kitten]

158. What?

Yes, I think everyone should go to prison for having sex. Shame shame SHAME! :eyes: :sarcasm:

[LadyHawkAZ]

165. That didn't answer my questions n/t

[defendandprotect]

205. All abuse scars the human being -- and sometimes even the brain --

Let's look to Freud's betrayals of women --

Freud knew quite well what females were telling him -- i.e., that they were

being sexually abused by males in their lives -- usually related to them!

Freud reversed it all and made the child the perpetrator rather than the victim!

Edipus complex -- reversed!!

If we ever turn this world right side up again we could perhaps ask those who

have been abused what we can and should do -- how we can help them.

But keep in mind that it is hetereosexual males who sexually abuse chidlren --

and youths. Hetereosexuals males are 100X more likely to sexually abuse children

than homosexuals males. However, even rightwing groups will confirm that our sexual

abusers are MALE.

[Armstead]

112. This may be simplistic but.....

I believe the full and unmerciful hammer of the law should be brought down on the bastards who do the traffiking. That, IMO is where efforts should be focused. It is probably the most revolting act in the world to forcible take possession of a person and degrade them as the sex traffikers do.

The moral issues, and the social issues of willing prostitution is a related issue -- but one which pales in comparison to traffiking and enslavement, in my opinion.

Those people who patronize them are in different categories. Those who KNOW they are purchasing the services of a slave should be tossed into the dungeon with the traffikers....But there are also a lot of johns who just think they are hiring a willing worker. Other than education, I'm not sure a lot of law enforcement resources should be used against them.

Likewise there are different categories of prostitutes. Those who do it willingly (whether happily or not) by choice; Others who get roped into the life but are still free to leave if they choose to; and the outright slaves who are terrorized and kept prisoner against their will. The law ought to focus mostly on the latter category. The moral question is secondary, in my opinion, to the aspects of it that involve violence and enslavement.

What is so annoying is that law enforcement knows about this, they often know who is doing it, but they seem unable or unwilling to actually declare the equivalent of a full-scale international war against the traffikers.

That is where the full force and resources should be aimed. No punishment is too severe for them.

[bluestate10]

128. Prosecutors and the IRS treat prostitution as a money laundering business.

The focus is on big organizations that gross millions of dollars each year, that focus happen even if every woman or man working for the organization is a willing participant. Prostitution is a multi tiered situation that runs the gamut from sexual slavery to high class prostitutes who select their dates and charge hundreds or even thousands of dollars for encounters. Law enforcement, in particular the IRS, focus on the latter when their efforts should be locked in on the former. There are some on DU and I am sure, in other forums, that can't wrap their minds around the fact that there are women and a few men selling their sexual services and making small fortunes doing so. When I think about prostitution, I don't think about women and men that make small fortunes from selling their bodies, out of sight, out of mind, as long as they don't tolerate abuse, more power to them. I think about the part of the issue, where women and children are forced to work against their will and are treated like human garbage by everyone, including police. That is the part of the issue that cops and IRS agents should be thinking about and working every day to shut down. The latter person is ill served by the type of moral blindness to the different facets of prostitution that many on the Left and Right are burdened with.

[Armstead]

131. I agree. The sexual morality of prostitution is less important than slavery

The sexual morality of prostitution is less important than slavery.

Any debates about the morality of prostitution should be separated from the trafficking aspect. I believe that kind of slavery should be in the same category as any other form of slavery, and made a top priority.

[seabeyond]

133. i have been reading this repeatedly on this thread. let me tell you about the 18 yr old girl i had

over at the house last night for dinner. her and her twin brother have lived out at boys ranch (a place for troubled kids or kids whose family is messed up) along with my niece. my nieces mother prostituted out, had girls she prostituted out and made my nieces life hell. i can tell you how messed up she is prior to my brother finally getting her and the big mess of her life, but then she has had us for the last decade and even in the younger years of her life, so she is really a lucky one.

but carla. i talked to her last night. her mother is a prostitute and druggie. she had four kids. three of them dropped off at boys ranch. she stays with her grandma, an xprostitute and one mean lady, as carla says.... carla does all kinds of things to hide her body, cant handle any kind of boy interaction and is the sweetest girl.... working hard to never never be in that environment that has been her only influence. and her twin brother, well, he was fuckin around with the young girls out at the ranch, so he is out and his life will now follow that path.

it is like we make a pretend, make believe in this world and more than anything, nobody can be honest about it.

lots of victims in these stories.

[Armstead]

134. I realize it is not cut and dried

I can't speak for anyone else on this thread, but this is how i look at it. It is not an either/or situation.

However, there is a distinction between the basic issue of prostitution and sex trafficking.....Just as there is a difference between workers on a farm and slaves who are held captive and enslaved on a farm.

When you hear of the horrific tales of women (and males) who are captured and trafficked and enslaved, it makes you sick to your stomach, if one has any sense of decency. Sex trafficking is part of the larger issue of slavery -- and to my mind that is about the worst crime one can commit -- almost worse than murder.

That, I believe,should be the focus of a worldwide push to stop it -- sex trafficking, child slavery and all forms of enforced slave labor.

Prostitution is an issue that is obviously part of that. And there are various gradations of force involved in much of prostitution.

However what I think people are saying -- and I am saying -- is that the moral objections people may have to sex workers in all forms can get in the way if the focus is diffused into campaigns against all forms of sex for sale. A root issue is trafficking and slavery, and that shouold be the focus of that effort.

Again, I realize there are gradations.A situation like your neice was in is horrible and should be dealt with too. The overlaps should be acknowledged and in many cases the solutions may overlap. However, at base the focus in terms of trafficking should be on the enslavement, regardless of ones views of the other legal and moral aspects of prostitution....In my opinion of course.

[seabeyond]

135. point

i get that. and the reality is for me.... i really dont care if these women choose this. there life. do what they want. not a chance in hell i am going to glorify it, honor these people that chose this lifestyle (like another poster suggested). nor am i going to pretend there are not victims in this environment. but it is their choice.

but

everything has shown the legalization challenges the very thing you hold up that must be addressed. and that is what i really do not get. every country that has legalized it has said they have a greater problem. the demand becomes higher, there are not enough women willing to prostitute themselves out and it is filled with sex slaves.

when an environment is created that escalates a demand. the need will be filled. legalizing it increases demand. which increases sex slaves. lower the demand and there will not be the incentive to force women into it. go after the pimp, john and decriminalize the prostitute, and the demand is going to drop because more men will be concerned with breaking the law and getting face in the paper.

i really was not going to get into the argument of this issue, because i really do not care if it is legalized or not. i dont get how people can blissfully (not you) say legalize when they ignore the reality of legalization claiming it will cure all problems. the only point i was going to make thru links is countries that hve legalized are now looking for other solutions.

[Yavin4]

141. Aren't You Confusing Legalization with Lax Regulation

Alcohol was made legal, but there's strong regulation against selling it to minors. If legalized prostitution is creating more sex trafficking, then shouldn't the correct solution be better regulation, not going after the Johns.

Also, as a civil libertarian, are you not at all concerned with having a government entrap citizens into comitting a crime? Is that what we want our police force to do?

[seabeyond]

142. if demand is much higher than supply, that demand will be met. nt

[Yavin4]

143. That Still Doesn't Mean That it Should Be Illegal

Under age alcohol demand is high as well, that doesn't mean we allow it to be sold nor does it mean that we make all alcohol sales illegal.


If the demand is high for legal prostitution, then the price of the service will be high as well. Even more, the service provider will gain increase leverage and power. This will, in turn, attract more people into the profession as the social stigma fades.

As an example, look at the adult movie industry. By making it legal and well regulated, the female performers became in-demand, and as such, they were able to make more money and get much better working conditions.

In the end, I fail to see how keeping prostitution illegal will do anything to prevent the horrors of the trade as it now exists. Even targeting Johns, which has failed miserably in the past to stop prostitution, is extremely difficult because of entrapment laws. Law enforcement should not be able to bait you into breaking laws.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

156. Do you really want to talk about the porn industry?

Or like prostitution is your entire education on the subject from HBO and Showtime?

[Yavin4]

160. So, when your arguments fall apart

you resort to insults.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

174. You have presented no argument that suggests any further exposure to the subject than reality TV

I am giving you the benefit of the doubt you are ignorant and don't actually harbor intensely distasteful attitudes about women and sex.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

155. So your going to "regulate" MS13 and the Triads?

Just where do you think trafficked prostitutes come from? Randstad?

"Okay guys, keep it safe! No more than forty girls per shipping container and drill some more airholes"
"Listen up! Only give the girls prescription Amphetamines, no crystal meth!"

[Yavin4]

161. So Again, How Has The Current Prohibition on Prostitution Stopped MS13 and the Triads?

Tell me that.

Throughout most of the U.S., prostitution is illegal, and yet, as you point out, MS13 and the Triads are engaged in human trafficking.

Conversely, there are counties in Nevada where prostitution is legal and well-regulated, yet, look at this, no trafficking. Can you explain that?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

171. You are under the impression their is no sex trafficking in Nevada?

I guess Cathouse just hasn't worked that into a plotline yet.

http://www.justice.gov/criminal/ceos/Press%20Releases/CDCA%20Doss%20convict%20PR_062706.pdf
http://www.ktnv.com/story/7031755/las-vegas-tops-list-for-prostitution-human-trafficking

[Yavin4]

175. Nice Trick. Not All of Nevada Has Legal Prostitution

Prostitution in Las Vegas is illegal. In the counties where it's legal, there is no trafficking.

[Yavin4]

178. So, You Also Must Be Against The Legalization of Marijuana As Well

If legalizing something increases demand and that leads to trafficking from abroad to meet that demand, then pot should remain illegal, correct?

If not, then why not?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

180. How many people are brutalized for the want of marijuana?

How many people destroy their lives using marijuana, it is an absolute false equivalency.

[Yavin4]

182. "How many people are brutalized for the want of marijuana?" See Response

Well, have you heard of Mexican border towns that are literally war zones because of the illegal marijuana trafficking from Mexico into the U.S.

Although Mexico has been a producer and transit route for illegal drugs for generations, the country now finds itself in a pitched battle with powerful and well-financed drug cartels.

The government says more than 34,600 have been killed in the four years since President Felipe Calderón took office and threw the federal police and military at the cartels, with the toll for 2010, 15,237, the heaviest yet.

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/mexico/drug_trafficking/index.html

So, I would say that at least 34,600 have been "brutalized for the want of marijuana".

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

184. Interesting, except the Mexicans are waring over the cocaine and meth trade

[LadyHawkAZ]

150. The problem isn't legalization creating demand

the problem is piecemeal legalization shifting the demand to localized areas, bringing in traffickers who are willing to gamble on high profit, and equally patchy enforcement. Demand is a constant. Making it illegal has never, ever, ever, in the entire course of history, worked. The only effect that making it illegal has had is increased production of dead prostitutes and jails.

Take Nevada. Patchy legalization. The legal, heavily regulated brothels have a trafficking rate of zero, which is also just about their disease transmission rate. They produce happy, healthy, fairly wealthy women with no criminal record who go on to other jobs or college. The tricky part? It's only legal in certain counties, but people flood to Nevada all the time *thinking it's also legal in Vegas*. So having arrived and found otherwise, your guy has a choice of a) a 45 minute drive to Pahrump, for an expensive good time in a heavily regulated brothel with inspections and taxes to pay for, or b) an unregulated girl downtown who'll blow you for a twenty and leave you more gambling money. Guess which option they tend to choose? And guess where all the traffickers are going to go?

The girl giving the $20 blowjobs on Fremont WILL get arrested at some point. And she will be back as soon as she gets out of jail, because once you have soliciting on your record in Nevada, you don't get another job at any level above janitor and you're lucky if you find a landlord who will let you rent. That's what making it illegal does. What problems have you solved by doing this? Where's the incentive to get out when she (or he) decides they want out? Who is benefiting from this situation?

Someone posted a couple of links above demonstrating that demand does NOT drop when prostitution is made a crime. Here's another, from a country where you face life in prison if you're caught.
http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/philippi.htm
From the article:
"The number of prostituted persons in the Philippines is about the size of the country's manufacturing workforce, according to Rene Ofreneo, a former Philippine labor undersecretary and an expert on the sex trade. (Dario Agnote, "Sex trade key part of S.E. Asian economies, study says," Kyodo News, 18 August 1998)"
Who benefits?

[lumberjack_jeff]

173. I agree with you.

But be clear what that means.

"I know that you can make a living at this, and it is what you want to do, but we won't let you because we know better."

Law prevents women from choosing prostitution because we know better. Is that right? Are they grownups entitled to self determination? Commercial fishing is nearly as dangerous, yet we don't make it illegal.

Condescension toward women is an inseparable part of this discussion.

[defendandprotect]

192. You're comparing "commercial fishing" with prostitution?!!!

Only when the Mafia (or BP) are involved in commercial fishing!!

What one faces in risks to oneself for one's own benefit, upon one's own choice --

and within one's own boundaries -- is one thing.

What one faces in risks to oneself under the control of others united in organized

and systemic exploitation of your body to please their clients -- for their own

profit -- is quite different.

[lumberjack_jeff]

193. Of course not. The only dead person that matters is a woman.

Did I pass the test?

[defendandprotect]

207. Presumably, you mean just the opposite --

[lumberjack_jeff]

212. No need to point out the obvious. Of course you presume that. n/t

[defendandprotect]

215. Are you saying you didn't mean it as anything but a positive statement?

[lumberjack_jeff]

216. I'm saying that my intent is irrelevant. You'll never see good faith.

Your demonstrated attitudes towards men prevent it.

124 prostitutes are murdered each year. That is intolerable. 4000 men were killed in their workplaces in 2009. That's their own damn fault.

http://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/cfch0008.pdf

on edit; I should think my sarcasm in the previous post obvious. Are you suggesting that if what I said could be taken at face value "men's deaths are meaningless" then I'd be redeemed? Perceived to have made "a positive statement"?

[defendandprotect]

217. Patriarchy rules -- and you're pointing to the disadvantages of it for males?

Who has made the rules and laws in America over the past 500 years if not men?

Every reason for males to begin to think of surrendering concepts of male-supremacy

and getting back to something more solid -- like nature and women.

Your posting efforts don't speak to an egalitarian view --

[grahamhgreen]

116. Legalize and regulate, like most of the civilized world.

[Yavin4]

163. Prohibitionists Still Foolishly Believe That Using The Criminal Justice System Can Solve Social Ills

No matter how many times they've been proven wrong. No matter how many people wind up in prison. No matter how many people die or become victims of violence. No matter how much prohibition corrupts our legal system. No matter how much prohibition tramples on our civil liberties. No matter what.

If there's an adult, consensual activity that they find personally immoral and objectionable and that they can find anecdotes of abuses, they immediately demand to use the justice system to remedy the problem. No matter that better remedies exist. No matter that focusing on counseling and better regulation of the activity are all better remedies, as history has shown. They still demand that the actvity be declared illegal which just introduces a dark, criminal element into the activity.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

168. people are very blind to their own biases and when we are strongly

biased about something, scientific/historical proof doesn't change our minds.

[leftstreet]

179. There's another element here

I usually avoid these threads like the plague, but this one's actually been pretty interesting.

One of the problems with this subject is many of the people who find it "personally immoral and objectionable" are the very ones who NEED it to stay that way. The husband-on-the-loose in Vegas wants the shame and yuckiness he feels projected onto the "illegal" sex worker, not himself.

If sexual activity could be accessed much like a trip to the chiropractor some peeps heads would explode.

[defendandprotect]

210. Men are always told by those pushing porn/prostitutes that these women are different -- !!

That's what all the messages add up to -- that these women aren't like your

mother, wife, sister, aunt, niece --

these are women who live to have sex -- they're the aggressors who want it all the time --

and they want painful sex -- they love having sex that hurts!!

If for one moment a masturbating male stopped to think about this BS, he'd had to change

his behavior -- therefore won't happen!!

[defendandprotect]

209. You're mixing up the issues here --

And, of course, speaking solely for myself --

I've always thought that legalizing prostitution was the way to go --

And/or that no prostitute should ever be arrested without also arresting the John.

And I probably still think that -- HOWEVER --

as we look at the Drug Trade, we understand that it continues on because elites are profiting

from it -- at the highest levels -- and, yes -- that our courts and justice systems have been

completely corrupted by the exploitation and profits. Needless to say all government officials

and agencies.

And we have long recognized the involvement of organized crime in prostitution and that it

exists only through corruption of government - same as drugs.

However, I think we are far from having fully discussed this matter of legalization --

Are we going to protect every female prostitute and male prostitute who opens a business as

we protect banks, and the frankfurter guy on the corner under the umbrella?

Maybe their earnings will be so high that they can go the way elites go -- hire your own

plane/airport and security?


THIS, however, mixes in another issue --

If there's an adult, consensual activity that they find personally immoral and objectionable and that they can find anecdotes of abuses, they immediately demand to use the justice system to remedy the problem. No matter that better remedies exist. No matter that focusing on counseling and better regulation of the activity are all better remedies, as history has shown. They still demand that the actvity be declared illegal which just introduces a dark, criminal element into the activity.

I don't think that DU is full of sexual prudes. And, certainly don't think that every prostitute

who is in the business -- or the porn business - is there of their own free will.

That would be hugely naive.

[defendandprotect]

169. Sex trade and addictions to internet porn -- industries which come with rise of the right ...

If we want to turn this world right side up again then we need

males to work on a new kind of masculinity --

[Yavin4]

177. Porn and the Sex Trade Have Existed Since the Dawn of Man

Good luck trying to change that.

[defendandprotect]

186. Well, let's just lie back and enjoy it then --- ????

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

188. well it's not like their real living people or anything...

the attitudes expressed on this subject around here horrify me, especially the prevailing disinterest in what circumstances brought people to be prostitutes. As though legalization absolves the human tragedies and criminal acts that deliver people to the sex trade and the belief that the boutique sex trade as represented in reality TV and celebrity scandals is analogous the real world.

[defendandprotect]

189. Unfortunately, as Demi Moore made clear there has been very little exposure of this sexual slavery -

I don't think people here are "disinterested" -- I do think however

that we have qutie a handful of males here who succumb to the porn industry's

propaganda about women which lead them to ignore "circumstances" and what the

industry is all about -- including the violence of it -- and their theory that

prostitutes LOVE what they're doing -- and often LOVE to be hurt.

This is patriarchal propaganda -- and if the truth were told of it, males would

have to be making other choices -- something they obviously either don't want

to do or are incapable of doing.

Disagree, however, that males were always violent -- or that sexual tyranny has

always existed -- including any form of slavery. These are fantasies of patriarchy.

Patriarchy and violence are mirror images of one another!

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

191. I think it is simpler than that,

Not discounting the mainstreaming and marketing of the sex trade to society at large around here it seems to simply come down to a belief that as progressives one must be unquestioning and indeed proponents of absolutely anything that involves sexuality (even at its most vulgar) excluding animals and children and the children are debatable when an attractive perpetrator is involved. Anything else and you are one with the puritanical jesus freaks.

[defendandprotect]

211. If you want "simple" then you have to go back to my earlier post ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=914500&mesg_id=935228

Not discounting the mainstreaming and marketing of the sex trade to society at large

That's the primary issue -- the debasing of females in the sex trade industries -- part of

the propaganda which seeks to make females worthy of intolerance, hatred and violence.

Not much different between the rw propaganda vs women than we saw vs AA's or Jews or

Homosexuals! And the purpose is exactly the same -- to dehumanize.



As for puritans and jesus freaks -- I think those posting that nonsense do it when they've

simply run out of debate! Outside DU -- America certainly has it's share of religious nuts!

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

213. I don't think many around here are acting out of misogyny

People like that exist, sadly in my case they are paternal blood relatives.

I think those around here taking what they perceive to be sexual tolerances and the idea of "consenting adults" to its most ridiculous possible end. Ignoring the fact that "consent" in itself is not the absence of coercion and refusing to reach the logical conclusion that one acting out of poverty, addiction or gang influence isn't the girl from Risky Business who is building a glamorous career around her love of cock.

[defendandprotect]

214. Agree -- but that's not what I'm saying ... how many DU males are part of patriarchy?

But patriarchy has formed/influenced/pushed a violent form of masculinity --

There's a saying: "Males question everything they say and do based on whether or

not it will make them look weak."

You have only to look at military training to understand how males are taught to shy

away from anything feminine -- even remotely feminine. Everything is suspect.

And that is also the premise that homophobia is based upon.


Look at the experience of the Japanese "comfort" girls. What if a soldier didn't want

to abuse one of those girls? How would he have been viewed by his fellow soldiers?

How much do you have to see of it to become callous to it -- indifferent?

Again -- I'd also direct you to pay careful attention to what is happening at Yale right now!!

"No means Yes!" -- and "Sex means anal sex" -- certainly that is coming from the desensitizing

males experience when they watch internet porn.

Directly linked imo is the rise of the gang rapes -- you might recall the incident in NYC when

a large group of males surrounded females and began pulling their clothing off and behaving

very aggressively. This was daylight in NYC -- ! The TAILHOOK MILITARY SCANDAL, another!!

Also recall the many other GANG rapes we have had where males have acted together -- one notable

case in NJ where the victim was a young retarded high school girl -- and she was sexually

harassed and penetrated by a group of neighborhood boys -- the high school athletes!


Males are being above all trained to be more violent -- because that is what is required

for the rise of the right. This is not accidental nor coincidental.


Patriarchy instills in males hatred for women -- and nature, btw. A tough combination to

defeat, but rightwing propaganda is very effective!

And it is up to males to begin consciousness-raising among themselves and break from this

violent adventure they've been offered -- which also includes making mockery of human

sexuality by making it violent.


think those around here taking what they perceive to be sexual tolerances and the idea of "consenting adults" to its most ridiculous possible end. Ignoring the fact that "consent" in itself is not the absence of coercion and refusing to reach the logical conclusion that one acting out of poverty, addiction or gang influence isn't the girl from Risky Business who is building a glamorous career around her love of cock.

AGREE with you completely in that regard -- and it's going to take a lot of discussion and

consciousness-raising here to break the hold that rightwing propaganda too often has on the

male mind -- especially in regard to females. It's quite a bit to defeat and set aright when

you consider how long this has been going on -- and that it was largely being reversed by the

1960's/70's -- when the right wing had to rebrutalize men and women and society all over again

to save patriarchy and authoritarian rule.

Keep on tellin' it -- !!


:)

[upi402]

190. America is as prudish as it is obsessed over sex

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