If an underaged girl lies about her age, should a man be charged for having sex with her?

[apples and oranges]

This story is somewhat related even though no real sex occurred.

A West Harford man is accused of posing as a UConn basketball player and having phone sex with a 13-year-old New York girl.

Police arrested Ernest Hamrick, 20, on Tuesday, according to court records.

It all started when Hamrick dialed the wrong number and got a teenage girl from Dutchess County, the Berlin Patch reports.

Police said the girl misrepresented her age. They started exchanging cell phone calls and texts -- 2,445 times between late October and early December, the Patch reports. The girl sent Hamrick 41 photos and was nude in several of them, police said. Hamrick is also accused of sending his own nude photos.
Police started to investigate when the teen’s mom contacted authorities.

Hamrick was charged with risk of injury to a child and third-degree illegal possession of child pornography. He is due in court on April 21.

http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/blogs/dog-house/Man-Posing-as-UConn-Basketball-Player--120054714.html

He didn't know she was 13, so why is he being charged with these crimes? He lied about his identity, but since when is that a crime?

[Mnemosyne]

1. How hard is it to check ID? Nothing more to say. n/t

[BillyJack]

5. Oh right...."Let's 'get it on, young thang"

FIRST let me see some ID

:rofl: Sure :eyes:

[franzia99]

11. The policy interest is more important than guys not being inconvenienced

If they don't want to verify her age they risk dealing with the consequences of that. Their choice. Not my problem.

Besides, for someone young enough it's usually fairly obvious that she could be under 18.

[WatsonT]

47. There have been legal cases

where medical experts have sworn the person in question is underage only to bring them in and find they're adults.

If a medical expert with time to study a number of photographs can't tell, what chance does an average guy have?

Yeah maybe below a certain age it's obvious. But with women hitting puberty at younger and younger ages (even as low as 7) being able to tell age by physical development is basically impossible.

[JVS]

7. I can see that going over great with someone in their mid to late 20s.

[WatsonT]

36. Maybe they could draw up a contract

verifying they are both of age, not intoxicated, and are willingly consenting to sex (have to list what is acceptable).

Get it signed and notarized, wait 4-6 weeks for processing and then IT. IS. ON!

[Xithras]

53. In my 36 years on this planet, I've never once heard of anyone checking their dates ID.

If you're 20, and your date says she's 18, and you ask to check her ID, you're essentially calling her a liar. Bad way to start a date. Who would do that if their date SAID they were 18, and LOOKED 18?

Sounds like a great way to stay lonely and single.

[Canuckistanian]

91. How does one "check ID" with a cell phone call?

"Hey, baby, first read me your license number and birth date"

[slampoet]

103. How do YOU check id over the phone?

not how does one do it,

But exactly how have you in the past asked someone for their id over the phone?

How did that go? Explain for us.

[Matariki]

110. "check id" on a date?

come on, be realistic.

[Matariki]

111. On the other hand - you could take your date to a bar - and let them check ID

That's how I once found out I was dating a 19 year old when I was in my early 30's.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

121. That's actually an excellent tactic. -nt

[blondeatlast]

125. Very practical. nt

[joeunderdog]

191. Unless the 20 year old can't get a drink either...

:shrug:

[WatsonT]

128. Unless they have a fake ID

in which case you are still legally liable if she is underage.

[Bucky]

143. Those wicked seductresses will probably order a coke just to fool me, seduce me & get me arrested.

Damn them vixens! Always with their clever schemes to bait us poor males into prison. I'll bet they get a commission from the warden.

[WatsonT]

210. Well apparently it does happen from time to time

not the commission part, but lying and getting men in trouble (I don't think it was done intentionally to get them arrested although that is a possibility).

Women can be evil and manipulative too.

[Juche]

159. Because a woman who lies about her age would never get a fake ID

The singer Akon almost got into trouble because a 14 year old girl obtained a fake ID, went into a club for people 18+ and he dry humped her.

So should guys also have one of those digital scanners that checks the barcodes of people's IDs too? Because an ID that looks realistic to the naked eye isn't impossible.

If someone lies about their age, that should be a strong mitigating factor in cases like these.

[TahitiNut]

201. LOL!

Did you type that with a straight face?

:rofl:

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[brewens]

3. If it was a couple photos and the guy broke it off because he

realized she probably wasn't 18, I'd be on his side. I'd have to see the photos, but it's hard to believe a 13 year old pulls off posing as 18. Sure there can be some tiny young looking 18 year olds, but odds are she looked like a young teenager.

[Matariki]

127. Probably half the models in women's magazines are 13.

And wasn't there just an article posted about an increasing number of girls entering puberty as early as SEVEN!? That's got to be confusing for everyone.

[whistler162]

197. There was a CHIPS episode with Ponch all hot and bothered

about meeting some billboard model that his boss knew. Turns out the model was underage.

This idiot will probably get a sex offender rating and the child, or more importantly, the mother of the child will get off scott free.

[themadstork]

162. There are many 18-y/o that look 13 too.

Everyone matures at a different pace and some people retain a certain adolescent look into their adulthood. I'm not sure what the practical solution to this would be.

[JVS]

4. I think in Russia there it is law that the age of consent is 16 but 14 if you didn't...

have cause to suspect her of being younger.

[franzia99]

15. Russia has a lot of crazy laws.

[LisaL]

22. ????

[JVS]

27. Russophobia is big here at DU.

[WatsonT]

37. I don't know if that necessarily counts as russophobia

I would say the US has a lot of crazy laws too, not because I hate or fear this country but because it's true.

And from what I've heard Russia does have some crazy laws. You can't go from czars to commissars to mafia/ex-KGB rule without ending up with a . . . unique legal system.

[aaaaaa5a]

6. There are a lot of laws and cases where men are treated unfairly.

The way many laws are written, the two genders are not equally responsible for their actions. If the girl misrepresented herself, and a reasonable person could conclude she might have been 18 based on her misrepresentation, no objectionable person would think the man should be charged. But the law is not designed to treat everyone as an equal before the court.

[franzia99]

17. Too many men would be willfully blind or just lie.

You'd completely gut the statutory rape laws.

[petronius]

116. I think there could be a 'reasonable person' factor built in, to handle those situations... (nt)

[Cherchez la Femme]

19. Leave the Patriarchy ALONE!!!!!11!!1!!

Ah, the poor poor patriarchy: innocently gullible, stumbling around, never knowing what they're doing, believing the best of everyone -- why, you'd never understand how they are the most powerful, richest group who makes by far the most money and beyond question holds the most power the way they act.

Yet they're always getting the blame
yet thankfully, not near the jail/prison time let's say men of color would get.
Now THAT would simply be a travesty!

So what if men are responsible for most of the crime? So what if they're responsible for 99% (roughly) of serial killings,

*and* "rape"
-- which is an exaggerated claim anyhow; why, women should 'just lay back and enjoy the ride'!
Rape (by men) shouldn't be a crime anyhow; why, they're just exercising their right "to be sexually assertive"!
Silly women, they just can't see the silver lining in that so-called 'cloud'! Heck, they should consider it a compliment and be happy for the attention!

Female rapists aren't penalized like men are!
What? There isn't nor never have ever been epidemics of rape by females?
Tsk, those are just statistics probably polled by Metrosexuals,
and who believes statistics anyhow?


Hey, an adolescent "misrepresented" herself -- and everyone knows kids should be held as accountable as adults!
Damn little Lolita's, they know exactly what they're doing -- bringing down Men!


*sigh* The poor Patriarchy: fooled again by little girls. Now THAT'S an epidemic!
It's obvious a girl barely beyond 2 years of the onset of puberty (on the average) surely is indistinguishable from an adult woman! You can see the mix-up!
They're all feminazi's, and HOW is a guy going to be able to figure it all out?
It's so unfair! :cry:


While they're at it, why don't they arrest Chris Hansen for setting up willing pedophiles?
Freakin' Uncle Tom!

[FLAprogressive]

52. So someone should be imprisoned and branded a sex offender if their partner *lies*???

[Gormy Cuss]

70. If the "partner" is too young to consent under the statutes of that state, why yes.

The adult is held responsible in such a situation.

[blondeatlast]

126. Thank you--and as humans and adults, we are supposed to have control of those urges. nt

[Yavin4]

133. We Live In A Nation Where Throwing People In Jail Is A Remedy For Everything

Then we wonder why our prison population is so bloated.

In this case, it should be fairly simple to establish a reasonable doubt as to whether the guy knew how old she was. We can read the transcript exchanges and see if he ever asked her about her high school or college or some other question that would indicate how old she was.

We can also establish a reasonable standard such as whether the female was in a bar and used a fake ID to gain entry, etc.

But, I guess it's better to throw people in jail because that fixes everything.

[EOTE]

54. Wow, that's one of the most sexist posts I've ever read on this site.

And THAT'S saying something. Add to that your complete ignorance of punctuation, any semblance of logic and inability to use an apostrophe and I think I know almost all I need to know about you. Congratulations on hitting the trifecta of ignorance.

[Recovered Repug]

90. It's not sexist if it's written about men.

[EOTE]

104. My bad.

What I meant to say was that was one of the most appropriate posts I've ever read on this site. I got confused a minute.

[Shandris]

95. You need a serious introduction to the difference between Patriarchy...

...and a man, because you're so far off base you make your own argument seem ludicrous.

If you're so goddamn blind as to not see that there are times when an unsuspecting, perfectly normal man can be misled by a young woman without seeing broad paintstrokes of 'Patriarchy' written all over it, you need some time to regain rational thought.

Fortunately for you, there's an 'answer' to everything a man can and will say to you, so I'll leave it at that. Good day.

[NeedleCast]

118. This is potentially the most over-the-top reaction on DU ever

And that's saying something.

[themadstork]

163. Good lord. Do you just copy-and-paste this rant into any thread even marginally related to gender?

Maybe actually respond to the thread in question instead of launching into your stump speech.

[tabasco]

190. I wish I could unrec an individual post.

Your post indicates a lack of critical thinking ability.

[moriah]

71. The law itself is written gender-neutral, or at least it is here in Arkansas.

"A person commits rape if he engages in sexual intercourse or deviate sexual activity with another person who is less than fourteen (14) years of age"

Unless you think the he there is referring to actual males, which of course it is not. By that definition no woman could ever be charged even with statutory rape, and it HAS happened. The fact that society seems to actually accept the idea of a 40 year old woman introducing a 12 year old boy to sex (it happened to my father) doesn't make it any less wrong.

This is not about the rights of the genders. This is about the rights of children to not be taken advantage of by adults.

[WatsonT]

83. On paper the law might not make any exceptions

but in practice females who have sex with underage males receive far more lenient sentences than men would.

[mrcheerful]

8. There are people sitting in prison that young person told them they were over 18

and later after the deed was committed found out the person lied to them. There was a guy I knew who picked up at a bar 2am closing time a women who he thought was over 21, took her home had sex with her and next day he was arrested for 1st degree rape. She had a fake ID saying she was 22 so the bar didn't get in trouble for selling alcohol to a minor. But the guy did 15 years for CSC 2nd degree.

[franzia99]

13. 15 years for stat? Can you link to a story confirming this?

[mrcheerful]

30. No link, it happened in the mid 1990's to a guy I hung around with

the original charge would have been 1st degree CSC which carries a life without parole sentence, his lawyer got him to plea to 2nd degree which carries a 2 to 15 year sentence in the state of Michigan. Around the same time Michigan passed a law to prevent people who take plea bargains from asking for a new trial by having to force them to have to ask the judge that sentenced them for a new trial. The reason he maxed out was because he refused to take the prisons sex offender program so the parole board kept turning him down for parole.

[Yavin4]

135. That's America Where Wars and Throwing People in Jail

Solves all problems.

[themadstork]

164. How old was she?

[WatsonT]

38. And I'm guessing when he gets out

he's a registered sex offender.

Have to protect the kids against adults who like to go to bars and pick up 22 year olds.

[mrcheerful]

43. He did his 15 years and yes he is registered as a sex offender see post

above yours. It happened in the 1990's when the witch hunt was in full swing, the judge who sentenced him ran for re-election on a 100% conviction rate on sex offenders and won re-election for his protection of children as well as his stiff sentencing of child molesters.

[WatsonT]

49. Modern day witch hunts but worse

as there are actual child molesters out there, so it's harder to argue innocence.

Just one of those crimes where guilt is assumed and innocence must be proven beyond all possibility of doubt, like say "I was in the space station orbiting the earth when the crime occured and all of NASA and Russias space program will vouch for this, as well as the president"

[DutchLiberal]

114. And that's why I keep saying America's judicial system is fucked up...

Even if I get flamed for it. Or been told that I'm over-generalizing. No, I'm not, I have read literally hundreds of cases like this (all involving different 'crimes' of course, but the bottom line is that the punishment is never in any way in balance with the crime).

[LuvNewcastle]

9. It seems to me that people these days

are starved for real human companionship. Seeing as how they spend every free moment on their cell phones, it's easy to understand why. He should have known better than to exchange nude pictures over the phone with some girl, but her parents should also have been aware of the excessive amount of time she was spending on the phone. I don't think jail time or fines are needed here, but the situation does need to be a learning experience.

[franzia99]

14. He called a stanger's house pretending to be someone he wasn't, he assumed the risk

He shouldn't have been doing that anyway. I don't feel an ounce of sympathy for this perv.

[franzia99]

10. Too many guys would be willfully blind or would lie about not knowing her age.

[LisaL]

12. Depends on the state, i believe.

In some state it matters if the man knew how old the girl was, in other states, even if he was lied to about her age, he'd still be guilty.

[Blasphemer]

16. What happens if it is he said vs. she said?

The child says that she was honest about her age while the accused says that she lied. It's possible for the child victim's reliability to be called into question while a guilty adult perpetrator is actually able to be convincing in his lies. Certainly, if there is sufficient proof of deception (especially a pattern of deception) by an alleged victim, that should impact prosecution and/or conviction. But what can be done if the only physical proof is proof of her real age?

[Norrin Radd]

18. When I was seventeen, I had a girlfriend who was twenty.

[Cherchez la Femme]

20. And?

Other than 'Good for you'?

[LisaL]

21. Might be a crime in some states.

[Throckmorton]

28. But not in Connecticut

Age of consent is 16 here, with a lot of provisos tacked on (mostly prohibiting people that work with teens from engaging in relationships with 16 and 17 year old). I know all this because I just finished a mandated reporters class as I am a DCF foster parent.

[Bucky]

144. Okay, but was she YOUR girlfriend?

[me b zola]

23. This is some kind of sick fucking thread

A man doesn't know the difference between a 13 year old and an 18 year old? Yeah, maybe too many fantasies about school girls in uniforms. Just fucking sick everyone making excuses for this shit. Sick, fucking sick. Did I mention fucking sick?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

24. You won't like what I'm about to say. But I swear it's true.

My 15yo daughter has a 13yo friend who LOOKS 18. I kid you not.

[me b zola]

25. I always looked older too

But it took about 2 minutes of opening my mouth for someone to figure out that I was a child. No, 13, no.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

26. The girl in question also SOUNDS like an 18yo to me.

But not because she's overly mature. It's that I find 18yo girls parlance to be just as childish.

[Dappleganger]

32. I have a 14 yr. old daughter who looks 18...

but if you spent 3 minutes with her you'd know she was younger. There's more to figuring out a person's age than how developed they are.

[WatsonT]

42. But mental maturity is a bad test as well

there are plenty of people in their 20s and 30s that are as mentally developed as a teenager (not just those with mental disabilities either).

And likewise there are 14 year olds who act much older.

[EOTE]

62. My SO's soon to be sister in law is as dumb as a box of rocks.

She's 26 and has the brain of a 12 year old. She's not mentally disabled, just incredibly dumb. Trying to decipher her facebook posts is an endeavor unto itself. If she had to rely on someone using her mental age to determine her actual age, she'd be one incredibly dumb virgin right now.

[Xithras]

55. Yep.

My 17 year old daughter looks 14 (she'll love that when she's older, but hates it now). She has friends, though, who could have easily passed themselves off as 18 when they were 13-14. If the clothes, makeup, and demeanor were right, there's no way that anyone could have correctly guessed their ages.

My daughter has a photo of her and her best friend hanging on her wall, taken at a dance their freshman year. My daughter looks 12, and her friend looks every bit of 19. Dressed as she was in the photo, she could have walked around my college campus and wouldn't have seemed a bit out of place. My daughter is the older of the two, by about four months.

That friend just turned 17 last month. Nowadays, she could walk into a BAR, and nobody would think that she was out of place.

People who say "they should know the difference" aren't being very realistic. Sometimes, you REALLY CAN'T tell.

[JoePhilly]

68. Oh, I believe you ... I have an 11 year old daughter (she''l be 12 in May) ...

She is about 5 foot 4 now. And she's been "developing" early (my wife tells me that she too was 'early').

She went to visit my family recently. They were amazed. My 11 year old looks older than their 16 year old, and her friends.

I don't see this situation improving (from my perspective). In 2 years, I have no doubt she's going to look 18. And she's already a very mature kid. Which means she could easily "pass" as older if she wanted to.

Just one more thing to terrify me, as her father.

[FormerDittoHead]

186. I wanted girls. I quickly changed my mind.

My handyman said that the trouble with boys as they get older is you have worry about what they do with their dicks, but as a father with girls, you have 1,000 dicks to worry about.

[laundry_queen]

107. I believe it

when I was 14 I looked at least 18. I used to get into bars (legal age 18 here) all the time. I also had a 20 yo boyfriend who had no idea how old I was. I didn't just look older, all my friends were older, and I was often told I knew too much to be just 14. I can totally see how someone could be duped. At the time I had that boyfriend though, the age of consent was 14 where I lived. When he finally found out, he was really freaked out. Nowadays it would have been very illegal. Now, I have an almost 14 yo dd, and I cannot see how she could possibly be mistaken for anything but 14 and I wonder if people were willfully blind where I was concerned, but then I look at old pictures and I look the same at 14 as I do now! lol.

[Marrah_G]

39. I looked alot older by the time I was 13

When I was 15 I was getting into clubs. Once a cop even replaced my drink that he spilled on me while wrestling a drunk to the ground. He apologized and bought me another Sombrero....I was 16.

It all depends on the people involved.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

51. Alot older?

http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html

[Marrah_G]

108. I love that picture :)

[Amaril]

106. Same here

I was 5'9" by the time I was 13, and was always an "old soul" (only child who spent majority of her time in the company of adults), so I easily passed for much older and was getting into clubs at that age (the drinking age was 18 in PA back in those days).

By contrast, my daughter -- who will be 24 next month -- is exactly 5' tall (the tall gene skips a generation in my family) and is regularly mistaken for much younger. She's actually been refused service a few times because people thought her id must be fake.

[WatsonT]

40. People age/mature physically at different rates

More at 11!

I remember a case of a man who was arrested for having underage pornography. He got off because they called in the porn star and found she was actually a legal adult. The medical expert testified she was underage. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lupe_Fuentes

[sudopod]

59. It makes you worry for the future, doesn't it? nt

[Mnemosyne]

72. Thank you, me b zola. Exactly, excuses. n/t

[WatsonT]

101. I am in awe of all the experts on here who can ascertain

the exact biological age of a women via a cell phone conversation and texts.

Seriously what are you guys doing here? Take that show on the road and you can make some money off it. (can you also determine the weight or height?)

[DutchLiberal]

115. I've seen 14 year olds who looked like 18 year olds.

It's incredible what make-up and the right dressing can do.

[Bucky]

145. I dunno about sick, but it sure is a fucking thread

Did you really expect a discussion about underage sex not to produce a massive pile-on?

[SoCalDem]

29. Context & timing are important issues here..

My husband is 7 years older than I am, but when we started dating I was 19 and he was 26. Had I been 14 and he, 21...well you see the problem:)

The internet adds a new wrinkle because "SOME" 13 yr olds look a LOT older than 13, and a girl engaging in some dangerous role-playing fantasy can score a whole lot of trouble for anyone who "plays along"...even if they never meet face to face.

Parents HAVE to start taking a more active role in knowing exactly what their teens are up to when they go online.

that said:

any man who looks for sexual satisfaction online is playing a dangerous game too... The "girl" he's hitting on and playing-acting with, may just be a police vice squad member, or a very young teen

[mrcheerful]

41. SO is 5 days from being 18 years younger then I am, she's 36 I'm 54

we met on line 8 years ago this coming September 6th, so she was 28 and I was 46. When she went to divorce her abusive alcoholic ex the DA wanted to go after her ex for 1st degree CSC because she was forced to live with him by her step dad and his new wife after a friend of the family got her pregnant, she was 16 and the drinking buddy of step dad was 32, her mom had just passed away, the step parents told her if she didn't get with the ex they were taking her baby, at 16 she didn't know that they couldn't, she was kicked out of the 9th grade for being pregnant so she believed she had no rights.

What is so amusing is how neither the ex or her family think the ex is a child molester, yet because I'm 18 years older then she is, I must be one. Somethings it boggles the mind when you deal with human thinking tied to emotions. The family is upset because we moved 125 miles away from them, now I also get accused of isolating SO from family.

[slackmaster]

31. Yes, he should be charged. Failure to check a woman's age is inexcusable.

Kids. Ugh.

[slampoet]

105. How do YOU check id over the phone?

How do YOU check id over the phone?

not how does one do it,

But exactly how have you in the past asked someone for their id over the phone?

How did that go? Explain for us.

[TorchTheWitch]

156. WTF??? Was he hiring her or something?

Why the hell would he need to check ID over the phone?

If you have no way of verifying a person's age when it comes to matters of sex particularly those that may land you in jail then DON'T DO IT. When it comes to having sex or viewing images of naked people it's ALWAYS YOUR responsibility to know what you're doing is legal BEFORE engaging in it. It's not fucking rocket science. If a guy is THAT desperate to have sex with someone or view naked pictures of them then they'd be willing to wait or jump through whatever verification hoops are necessary BEFORE doing so or accept whatever risks are involved in not doing so and sucking it up when caught even if it means prison time.

[raccoon]

33. All I can say is....

:popcorn:

[cbdo2007]

34. They should both be charged.

And charge her as an adult if that's what she claimed she was.

Charge him as an adult too even though he doesn't act like one.

[KittyWampus]

46. I'd sort of like to see the girls parents also charged.

[snooper2]

102. I think we should charge the telco as well for making the feature available

Then we should charge whoever showed her how to use it...

[themadstork]

165. We could charge her school.

Mostly just for fun.

[LuckyStrykes]

161. I would like the parents to be legally involved also.

Children should not have communicative access to adult strangers.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

66. Punish, punish, punish!

:crazy:

[Yavin4]

138. Throwing People in Jail Solves All Problems

Didn't you know?

[DutchLiberal]

117. Charged for phone sex? Why? Whywhywhywhywhy?

Can't think of one good reason.

[FormerDittoHead]

187. She should be charged with distributing child pornography. It's been done before.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2009/mar/27/teen-child-porn-032709/

I'm sure her protective Mom won't mind hiring a criminal defense attorney.

If the man is to be punished for RECEIVING the images, the girl should certainly be punished for creating and then distributing them.

[DutchLiberal]

205. How about not charging *anybody*?!

This is ridiculous.

[FormerDittoHead]

207. No WAY! That would make TOO MUCH SENSE!!!! THINK OF THE *CHILDREN*!!1!! n/t

[WatsonT]

35. If she's 17.5 and says she's 18, no

But 13? He must have seen some signs.

[Johonny]

45. I go with you on this

you pick someone up at bar after a5 minutes of conversation and well you get what you get taking those kind of risks.

After several months of emails and phone calls. Seems like you'd know. For instance when they don't remember anything that happen in the 1990s might be your first clue. Hard to believe in this case the guy didn't have some clue something was wrong.

[loudsue]

44. In a case like this, I don't think he should be charged.

There has to be some point where human beings are just human beings.

I am a woman, and I have had problems with men in the past who should have been jailed. But not all men are guilty. I really get tired of the witch hunt that goes on. There needs to be balance at some point.

The mother should have taken her daughter to the shed, and she should have to do community service with girls who have actually been the victims. The man should have to do community service as well with victims of crimes. They both need to learn how harmful their actions can be.

[FormerDittoHead]

189. Oh no you don't! Don't try to inject some common sense here...

What an incredibly reasoned post you have there. Up vote!

[thelordofhell]

48. Yes

[Aerows]

50. Yes.

You control where you put it, and if you put it someplace it isn't supposed to be, then it *IS* your fault.

I don't understand this mentality that men have no control over themselves. It's a perpetual theme - they can't control themselves because of the way a woman is dressed, because of where they are, what her age is, etc. YOU have control over where you put it. If you don't, then you need to stop using it until you GET control over it. That's what men expect women to do - have complete control over themselves at all times. I don't understand why men get a free pass to not have control over themselves and their bodies.

[me b zola]

93. This is a valid point

I still have arguments with family members who believe that women shouldn't be allowed to serve on submarines because men can't control themselves (that's their argument, not mine). I tell them that i don't have such a negative view about men, and that they certainly can control themselves, it is just what we as a society tell them what is acceptable behavior--and then them taking responsibility for themselves.

[Aerows]

185. Gentlemen don't act that way.

Men who have been raised to have respect for themselves and for other people don't behave like animals that have no control over their bodies. Men and women who have respect for themselves and for other people don't excuse that behavior because they know it is possible to have control over their own bodies and behavior.

[WatsonT]

100. The argument wasn't that men have no control over themselves

assuming this story is accurate he did ascertain that she was of age *first*.

So he at least made the attempt of doing the right thing.

I have a hard time crucifying someone who at least made the effort to do the right thing but due to someone else's dishonest was caught up in a crime.

Like the difference between intentionally filing a fraudulent tax return and hiring someone to do it for you in good faith, who then proceeds to butcher it and make many errors.

Both are technically tax fraud. Maybe in the second scenario you can be guilty of negligence. But I would hesitate to label them the same thing.

[Aerows]

184. *You* still control

where you put it. She's still a minor. She also wasn't alone in telling lies, which should have made him wonder, "gee, if I'm lying, she could be lying, too"

I wonder what some of the men who justify this type of behavior would feel like if they went to Saudi Arabia. Young, Western men are hit on just like women are in other countries, because there is such sexual segregation. Would you still be okay with that type of behavior if it was you getting groped, or you 14 year old son getting pursued by some 20-year old man? I suspect you wouldn't be.

Again, some men seem to think they have a God-given right to sleep with any woman they find attractive - and they have every right to be as aggressive and pushy as necessary to get what they want. If a woman is dressed nicely or is attractive, she MUST be dying to sleep with you. If a 14 year old is attractive, and lies about her age, it MUST be because she is desperate to have sex with you, and it's open season to pursue her.

Meanwhile, women are supposed to have total control over what they wear, where they go and who they talk to - because it is apparently NOT their God-given right to choose who they sleep with or not. Men have the RIGHT to be pushy, grabby and aggressive to get sex. That is basically what all of the justifications (she asked for it!) amount to.

If you don't see a problem with that, you are one of those men that thinks he is God's gift to women, and probably have behaved just like that in the past. Gentlemen know how to behave, and understand that if a woman says no, or is of questionable age, you stop pursuing them. Desperate Neanderthals don't get it (which is probably why they are so desperate all of the time).

[white_wolf]

56. I know this will piss everyone off but here goes

I think the age of consent should be lowered to 16. Hell, it is even lower than that in some Western countries. If a 16 year guy or girl wants to have sex with someone older, I think they are old enough to make their decisions. I know the OP is about 13 which I think is way too young, I heard in Canada it was just raised to 16 from 14.

[jtown1123]

60. 16 or 17 is reasonable. I guess 18 is a little better since the person is done with high school

[Xithras]

61. The age of consent is 16 in most of the country.

As I recall, only 10 or 11 states actually set the age at 18, and a number of those states have exceptions permitting sex within a certain age range.

Part of this guys real problem is that he has photos too. Photographs of teens under 18 are ALWAYS illegal, under federal law.

[white_wolf]

64. I didn't know that about the rest of the country.

I just know in TN there is a 3 year rule, so if your within three years it is legal or so I've heard. I wonder though, what happens if someone crosses into another state, and the state you all meet in has the age of consent at 16, but the older party is 18, and their state requires 18 to be the age of consent?

[Xithras]

67. Depends on why you travelled there.

It's illegal under both federal and most state laws to travel to another state with a minor for sex. I'm 36 and live in California, where the age of consent is solidly at 18 (it isn't prosecuted often, but even sex between minors is illegal here...we have one of the stricted statutory rape laws in the country). If I were to take my 16 year old neighbor to Nevada to have sex with her, as the age of consent in Nevada is 16, I could be prosecuted under both federal law and California law. Even if I had her consent, and the consent of her parents. Meeting a minor in another state to dodge consent laws is ALWAYS illegal.

On the other hand, if I were visiting Reno, and simply happened to meet a 16 year old girl from California, took her to my room, and had consensual sex with her, there would be no crime committed. If I didn't travel there for the purpose of having sex with a minor, whether that specific minor or a minor in general, but the sex simply happened, then no crime occurred. Of course, an overzealous prosecutor could have a field day with that, so I'd still file that solidly under "Bad Ideas to Never Try".

A friend of my brother-in-law was stupid and did this about 10 years ago. He lived in Sacramento, was 26 years old, and fell for a 17 year old girl. In a spectacularly stupid move, he came up with the idea of them taking a day trip to Tahoe, where they slept together on the Nevada side of the lake. Their relationship fell apart a few months later, her dad found out about the sex, and to make a long story short, he's now a registered sex offender (he didn't actually get any prison time). Crossing state lines is NOT a way to dodge these laws.

[white_wolf]

73. As to your brother-in-law's friend I don't know how old he is,

but I could see someone in their early twenties or late teens falling for someone in the 16 year old range, but what I don't get is this: If you really care about the guy/girl, you won't mind waiting a few years to avoid all the trouble, if you can't wait you don't care about them and you would be better off going out to a bar.

[Xithras]

81. I know. We all said the same thing.

He was an idiot, and if he'd kept it in his pants a few more months, it would have been fine. Young people don't always think with their heads though.

Part of the problem, according to him, was that she really wanted it. He claimed that she'd been consistently sexually active in previous relationships for a couple of years, and wanted to be sexual with him as well. He said that he "resisted" her for more than a month, despite constant and overt sexual invitations from her. He came up with the Tahoe idea as a way to make her happy and satisfy her desire for sex, and thought that crossing the state line would keep him out of legal trouble. It didn't.

In the end, her age and the fact that he plead guilty earned him a fairly light sentence, but he'll carry that sex offender registration forever.

[white_wolf]

86. Don't get me started on the sex offender list.

I can see the use in it, but it is greatly abused. I bet a lot of the people on it are 18 year olds who had sex with their girlfreinds. It should only be used in cases of actual rape (drug induced or forced) or child molestation. Otherwise it can be very bad, at least in my view.

[Aerows]

63. Actually

I think 16 IS reasonable. Thirteen is not reasonable. In any case, his main problem is the pictures. He's toast by virtue of those alone.

[white_wolf]

65. Yeah I agree 13 is unreasonable, at least to me.

I actually did a report on this topic a few years ago and apparently in Japan, 13 is the age of consent. It seems strange to me, but their country so they make the laws.

[DutchLiberal]

119. I'm inclined to agree.

Girls of that age are biologically ready to have sex (I also think the average age for first time sex in most Western countries is around 16 years) and they have the physical appearance to be of interest to men older than them. This is all biological/scientifically speaking. So I don't see why we should see it as a crime.

[closeupready]

132. I believe it's 13 in Spain, which, frankly, I think is outrageously sick.

nt

[stevenleser]

57. 99% of the time, yes. This is an odd situation though. They never met in person.

I dont see what is gained by giving the guy in this situation much more than a slap on the wrist. He didnt know, and he never touched the girl.

[jtown1123]

58. That's the law. Tough shit. People under 13-year-olds can never legally consent

[Shandris]

96. 'Tough shit'?

How can you be responsible for knowing someone is not legally able to consent IF YOU HAVE NO CLUE THAT THEY'RE TOO YOUNG TO CONSENT?!

The amount of arrogance from some posters on this topic is mind-boggling. 'Tough shit'. I'll bet it wouldn't be 'tough shit' if it was your son or daughter, would it?

[jtown1123]

124. That IS the law so yes, tough shit. I would suggest everyone be pretty careful

about who they sleep with. It's not that hard. You should be able to figure out if someone is underage. How many instances are adults hanging out with teenagers and don't know those people are teenagers?

[Yavin4]

139. Hey Guys, Just Stick to Women Aged 70 and Older

Then you have nothing to worry about.

Come here Barbara Bush. You sexy thing:

[apples and oranges]

146. lol

[Juche]

160. What if a coworker invites you to their house

You have a coworker who says 'would you like to come over to my house to watch tv tonight', so you say yes. And when you get to his nice house and watch tv, a couple of hours later the cops break in and charge you both with breaking & entering. Turns out your coworker is an asshole who broke into the nicest house he could find and pretended it was his own. Should you be charged with breaking and entering for not asking your coworker for 3 forms of government issued ID with his home address on him, or some bill envelopes showing it was his house?

Whenever a friend invites you to their house do you ask to see the bill stubs so you can compare the name with the address?

That is basically what the people here are asking for.

You can make the same assumption about cars (someone steals a car but pretends it is their own, etc). Do you ask every friend who gives you a ride to see their driver registration to compare the name and title?

Statutory rape is illegal and understandably so, but it is terrifying to know that if a woman lies about her age, all the blame falls on the man.

[FormerDittoHead]

188. Yes. And the girl should be charged with distributing kiddie porn. It's the law. Tough shit.

No way that could happen? Tough shit. She should be a registered sex offender for the rest of her life.

It's the law. Tough shit.

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=91848

Girl posts nude pics, is charged with kid porn
New Jersey teen may have to register as a sex offender
The Associated Press
updated 7:01 a.m. CT, Fri., March. 27, 2009

TRENTON, N.J. - A 14-year-old New Jersey girl has been accused of child pornography after posting nearly 30 explicit nude pictures of herself on MySpace.com — charges that could force her to register as a sex offender if convicted.

PS: they call it a "legal system" not a "justice system" for a reason...

[Motown_Johnny]

69. Yes, he should be charged. It is up to the jury to decide guilt and the judge

to decide what punishment is warranted


I'm assuming probation is the correct punishment here

[apples and oranges]

74. Charged with what? Texting a girl who police acknowledge lied about her age?

[stevenleser]

77. Note that this person suggested probation as an appropriate penalty.

If you send someone nude pics without their consent, you can be charged with a fairly minor sex crime. Since the child in this case cannot consent, that is something with which the man could be charged. I disagree with the possession of child pornography charge unless he requested that the pictures be sent to him. If someone sends me anything unsolicited, nude pictures, drugs, bombs, etc., I dont see why I would be charged.

But, yes, he deserves to be convicted of a very minor sex crime and to get probation. I dont think he should have to register as a sex offender.

[Shandris]

97. Unfortunately, one requires the other.

And if someone sends you unsolicited pornography, you can and will be convicted.

And again, how could he have known that she couldn't consent?

[October]

75. How long did he know her?

I mean... really...

Not only did he allegedly not know she was only 13 -- he did not know HER at all.

[TahitiNut]

203. Interesting. With all the righteous rants and pompous posturing in this thread ...

... your post is the only one that suggests that it might be reasonable to expect BOTH people in a (presumably) consensual sexual relationship to actually know each other to the most minimal degree imaginable before expressing themselves in that relationship sexually. (I.e. boning each other.)

I mean ... I've been horney ... and have gone through the "fuck anything that breathes" stages of adolescence and later ... but I've NEVER made the beast with two backs with someone I didn't know at LEAST well enough to know if they were above the age of consent.

Wow.

[LeftinOH]

76. "She told me she was eighteen" means that he knew she was very young,

but was willing to take a risk anyway based on what the very young girl said. Lame excuse.

[WinkyDink]

80. Willful ignorance. The guy was going for "plausible deniability." And a minor.

[WatsonT]

84. If he was looking for 18 year olds

you might label him a pervert or dirty old man, but legally he is not a criminal.

[DutchLiberal]

120. Why would that be 'perverted' or 'dirty'?

[WatsonT]

122. I suppose it depends on his age

It is a little weird for a 30 year old to go after 18 year olds.

Hence the "Might" part of that.

And that's just the general consensus on such behavior, not any set in stone ethos.

But either way it wouldn't be illegal which is the crux of this issue.

We have laws to protect minors from adults. In this case it didn't work but not through the fault of the adult. As minors can't be charged for lying about being an adult I don't think a crime really occurred here (assuming the story is accurate of course)

[DutchLiberal]

123. I think, biologically speaking, it's only natural for men to go after young women...

I think most men don't give into that urge because of what 'society' thinks is 'normal' or 'weird'. Ultimately, what's considered 'weird' is something we make up as we go along. There's no inherently bad thing about a 30 year old man wanting an 18 year old woman. Any restrictions we, as a society, place upon on are ultimately artificial.

[seabeyond]

129. no more different than biologically a 30 yr old woman would want a 19 yr old man

that is his prime. where a womans prime is much older. so if we are talking biological, it is more understanding for the male to want an older woman, and a woman to want the younger, more virile man

[DutchLiberal]

130. No, because the older the woman gets, the change of producing (healthy) offspring becomes smaller...

That's why it's generally advised to not have children if you're over 35.

[seabeyond]

141. the younger the girl that gets preg, her statistics sit with the older woman.

hence why they wouldnt want the younger gal either. 20-30 optimum

where as the male sperm starts reating less desirables at 24

[DutchLiberal]

148. I don't understand what you're saying at all.

But I get the sense that you're trying to curb the facts to fit your ideological bias.

[seabeyond]

151. the young girls that have babies have as many problems in preg as the older women.

so the young girls getting preg is not biologically explained. too young, too old, = neither optimal for preg

[DutchLiberal]

157. I've never seen any evidence to support those claims.

[EOTE]

173. Yeah, but too young is generally 15 or so from a biological standpoint.

Too old is about 37 or so. So, you can see there's very much of a biological imperative for older men (whose sperm, while not optimal, is still capable of providing plenty of healthy babies) to seek out younger women.

[EOTE]

131. From a biological standpoint, that's not true at all.

Younger women are more fertile. After their mid 30s, the chances of producing healthy offspring decrease notably. That same falloff doesn't occur until much later from men. So if you're going to speak from a biological standpoint, it would help to have a knowledge of biology beforehand.

[seabeyond]

142. teen pregs are statistically as problematic as the older woman. there is an in between

in optimum

whereas male sperm starts declining at 24

[EOTE]

147. Young teens, not so in the later teens.

The only reason why teens have more issues overall is because they're getting pregnant in far higher numbers than women in their 40s. The rate of problematic births for older teens is lower than women in their 40s by a long shot.

[seabeyond]

149. yup... after about 17, they are good to go. this is what i am saying, lol.

and no, the reason 13 yr olds have more problems is not because more of them are having babies.

[EOTE]

170. Actually, that wasn't what you were saying.

You were suggesting that older women have just as much biological imperative to seek younger men than older men have to seek younger women. Or, as you more eloquently put it: "no more different than biologically a 30 yr old woman would want a 19 yr old man that is his prime". That's simply not true at all. If only 80 year old men and 20 year old women were allowed to mate, civilization would pretty much continue unaffected. If only 20 year old men and 40 year old women were allowed to mate, civilization might last a few more generations.

[seabeyond]

176. firstly, those are not the ages we were talking. it was 30 yr old and secondly

in your dream you think 80 yr old is gonna be able to do the job. that is absurd. his sperm is less than ideal if he can get it up which he odds are not in favor of, by far.

[EOTE]

177. Yes, it is the ages we're talking about.

We were talking about older men and younger women. It makes sense, from a biological standpoint, that men from their teens to well into a ripe, old age would be attracted to women in their child-bearing prime. And old geezer men have healthy children all the time, it's pretty much the norm for an old man to have a healthy baby if his partner is in her prime child-bearing years. That's one of the big benefits of us not having to carry the baby around for 9 months. The opposite is not true. If you have a 20 year old male hooking up with a woman in her late 40s, the chances of having a healthy baby is significantly lower. A 30 year old woman, really has no biological imperative to go seeking a much younger male. It's just not there.

[seabeyond]

178. biologically, there is no reason a young woman would want an older man

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/05/magazine/05wwln-lede-t.html?_r=2&adxnnl=1&ref=magazine&adxnnlx=1303481937-2oQGSlriUefIPsNB7UkUPg

And men don’t have to be all that old to be “too old.” French researchers reported last year that the chance of a couple’s conceiving begins to fall when the man is older than 35 and falls sharply if he is older than 40. British and Swedish researchers, in turn, have calculated that the risk of schizophrenia begins to rise for those whose fathers were over 30 when their babies were born. And another Swedish study has found that the risk of bipolar disorder in children begins to increase when fathers are older than 29 and is highest if they are older than 55. British and American researchers found that babies born to men over the age of 40 have significantly greater risk of autism than do those born to men under 30. (The age of the mother, in most of these studies, showed little or no correlation.)

Lay this latest I.Q. news atop the pile, and you find yourself reaching the same conclusion as Dr. Dolores Malaspina, a professor of psychiatry at New York University Medical Center, who has done some of the schizophrenia research: “It turns out the optimal age for being a mother is the same as the optimal age for being a father.”

[EOTE]

179. Let's have a comparison here.

What are the chances of a woman having a healthy baby after 50? Almost nil. What are the chances of a man having a healthy baby after 50? Pretty damned good if he's trying with a woman in her child-bearing years. Of course, I doubt you'll agree with this. I'm sure you've got some evidence saying that 50 year old women have healthy babies all the time? Or that men over 50 aren't likely to have healthy babies? We're talking about relatively minor increased risks of mental disorders compared to nearly zero percent chance of having a healthy baby. THAT is where the biological difference comes in. There are plenty of biological reasons that a young woman would want an older (and the definition of older has certainly changed over the millenia). The primary one being that older men tend to be more established and better providers. Thousands of years ago, that would have been a man in his older 20s to early 30s. Now it could be a man in his 40s to 60s.

[seabeyond]

180. point... biologically htere is no reason a young woman wants the old man anymore than a young man

wanting an old woman.

it is that simple

[EOTE]

181. Except that's not true in the slightest.

I just provided multiple reasons that's not the case. Even the very link you provided backed up my assertion, though you might not be aware of that. You see, when having a discussion, you can't just use your strong hunches as facts. They're wrong. Science does not support your assertions. In fact, science says your assertions are dead wrong. If you'd like to respond with facts, I'd be more than happy to hear them.

[DutchLiberal]

150. That's true. But I don't think that fits her predetermined position on the subject.

[seabeyond]

152. actually, i have factual information, you were spouting nonfactual info.... bah hahaha

you are so

silly

[DutchLiberal]

158. Why not just post a link to this 'factual information, instead of acting like you went crazy?

[EOTE]

171. Links? Factual information?

You are aware of who you're speaking to, right?

[DutchLiberal]

204. Yup... the living example of how brainwashed people are not only found on the right...

[EOTE]

172. Factual information isn't "factual" if it's demonstrably false.

And you merely saying something doesn't make it true, no matter how much you'd like that to be the case.

[Hosnon]

137. Why in the world would that make him a pervert or dirty old man? nt.

[seabeyond]

92. that is how hubby explained. under 18, criminal. but what if.... nope

if you cant tell, dont mess. that simple.

his was no hemmmming or hahhhhhhing anywhere. be damn sure. nothing more

[indimuse]

78. 20....13... n/t

[WinkyDink]

79. If I don't know if a car is owned, can I take it? If I don't know the speed limit, can I go 100?

The burden of knowledge is on........

[stevenleser]

82. I think that is a little more fuzzy in this case since everything was over the phone.

You can't really get someone's ID over phone chat. Well, I suppose you can but the picture can be doctored anyway. I still think the guy should get a minor conviction and slap on the wrist and thats it.

[anneboleyn]

88. Well he knew the girl was very young. Seems a coincidence that he said she was an eighteen

since he knows that's the "legal" age. Plus as I post below ignorance of the law doesn't protect a defendant from being convicted of the crime. (or ignorance that a crime is being committed -- such as in the case of "I didn't realize my friend was robbing a bank and then I drove him away in my car but didn't know that he had stolen money" -- one would still be convicted of being an accessory and abetting an escape)

[WatsonT]

85. More like someone tells you a car is theirs

sells it to you under this premise and then you get arrested for car theft when it turns out the car was actually someone elses.

Or getting a speeding ticket because someone went through and changed all the signs and you thought you were following the law but due to their deception you were not.

[FLAprogressive]

89. +1 billion

[WinkyDink]

169. Funny, but your car example was on "Law & Order," and the dame who had the car was liable.

"But he tol' me it was okay!"

[anneboleyn]

87. Isn't this a legal issue: ignorance of the law does not mean one is not guilty of a crime

Isn't this commonly discussed in law courts, as a defendant can claim that he/she was ignorant of the crime being committed or of a law against it ("I didn't know the car was stolen" or "I didn't know that I was driving a bank robber away from the scene of the crime"). As far as I understand one can never use ignorance of the law as a legal defense. So this man is guilty even if as he claims he didn't know the girl was underage and/or that she lied about her age. The pictures should have clued him in to the fact that she was very young (certainly under the age of eighteen), even if she looked older than thirteen. Plus I find it hard to imagine that a thirteen-year-old's voice sounded like she was nineteen or twenty or whatever she was claiming was her actual age.

[stevenleser]

94. It may not absolve him of ANY crime but it can mitigate the situation...

the mindset of the person committing a crime is pretty important in determining the degree of offense in many situations. For instance, if you kill me, depending on what was going on in your mind and the situation, you could get life in prison without parole (for premeditated murder), or you could walk away scott free (self defense) or many variations in between.

The guy deserves probation IMHO but that entails either a conviction or guilty plea to a relatively minor charge. I feel a little sorry for him, but one has to wonder about someone who would exchange nudie pics with someone they have never met and whose identity they have not confirmed.

[WatsonT]

99. Intent is also a factor in determing whether a crime was committed

and if so what kind.

Murder and manslaughter both involve taking a life. But they aren't the same thing.

And you can't verify age by listening to a person. I know thirty year olds who sound like they haven't hit puberty yet and young teenagers who could pass as adults.

[jberryhill]

136. Ignorance of law, and ignorance of facts requisite to intent, are two different things /nt

[themadstork]

166. That's not ignorance of the law.

Ignorance of the law would be "I didn't know stealing cars was illegal." if you unknowingly purchase stolen goods, your not knowing it was stolen matters quite a lot legally.

[formernaderite]

98. I can't tell the age of girls anymore

A couple of years ago, I thought my new neighbor who is a young looking guy was married to his 13 year old daughter. Turned out he was divorced, but I felt like an idiot introducing her to my wife as his wife. It wasn't a case of her dressing or looking particularly old... She just seemed grown up?

I'd be the first to say charge the guy, but I'm an old geezer... just glad I'm too old to have to deal with this kind of stuff.

[themadstork]

167. Yes. The reality of it is that eyeballing a young person's age is wildly unreliable.

And that the only legally safe thing to do is to only sleep with those whom you know very well. This is what I have always done. Potential legal problems are in the end just another risk one takes on when engaging in spontaneous sex with strangers, probably. I don't think there's any way around it really.

[treestar]

109. Maybe it should depend on the facts

Whether it was reasonable for him to believe she was over 18.

A hazard of sexual freedom of the kind we have today. Nothing is without its risks.

[seabeyond]

112. reality. it is the mans ass on the line. i would think it would behoove a man

to make sure, before....

that simple

[DutchLiberal]

113. Should there be any charges at all if the sex was consensually?

I'm not talking about 10 or 12 year olds who are duped or mislead into having sex. But if 16 or 17 year old girls freely and willingly have sex with an adult man... why should he be charged with anything? Just a theoretical/hypothetical question.

[Bucky]

153. The theory behind the law is they're not old enough to consent

[DutchLiberal]

206. If they're 17 years and 11 months old they can't consent; then one month later, they suddenly can?!

Please.

[Hosnon]

134. This is a policy issue for me. As has been pointed out by many people, if ignorance is an excuse,

then all a sudden no one would know the age of the person s/he is having sex with (the incentive would be to simply not ask).

However, I do believe there should be an exception to the rule for fraud on the part of the underage individual. If a 22 year old meets a 17 year old at a bar and she has a fake ID, and does everything in her power to make him believe that she is at least 18, he should be able to use that as a defense. (ETA: And the sex would, of course, have to be consensual.)

[Yavin4]

140. Thank You

And in this particular case, we have the transcripts of their conversations. We can see if he made an effort to find out her age or if she gave any indications that she was not of age.

If someone shows an ID showing that they are of age, I really don't know what else there is to do.

[LanternWaste]

154. Obviously I'm in a pronounced minority

Maybe this is a good example of why becoming intimate only with those one both knows and trusts is a much better idea in the long run than taking whatever presents itself.

Maybe what we often refer to prudishness is merely wisdom.

[seabeyond]

155. Maybe what we often refer to prudishness is merely wisdom.

it appears to be so. over and over and over again, lol. bah hahahah

[Scout]

168. oh silly you, making sense!

"becoming intimate only with those one both knows and trusts"

[WatsonT]

174. I think a problem with this statement is the blatant double standard

a man who has sex with an underage girl he thought was 18 gets the book thrown at him.

A woman who has sex with an underage boy she *knew* was underage gets probation.

Seems it's only wisdom for certain people, for others it's just prudishness.

[LanternWaste]

199. Precisely how was this double-standard addressed in the OP

Precisely how was this double-standard addressed in the OP to which I was responding to?

(I imagine many people may conflate wisdom and prudishness...)

[WatsonT]

208. It isn't, this is culture-wide

these trials don't occur in a vacuum.

And it is an established fact that female sex offenders are treated differently than male sex offenders.

So it is not universally 'wise' to avoid sex. It is wise for men to do so but irrelevant for women.

Likewise it's not always a terrible idea to whistle at a white woman. Time, location, and your race play big factors.

[Modern_Matthew]

175. I do feel our age of consent laws should be reexamined.

You can't have a one size fits all approach to consensual sex.

[Iggo]

182. Looks like this thread's gonna make it to the weekend.

Oh joy!

[Forkboy]

192. Gender threads on DU must be a sociologist's wet dream.

:)

[lumberjack_jeff]

200. +1 nt

[FormerDittoHead]

183. What's the penalty for posing as a UConn basketball player? I didn't know it was illegal.

I understand why posing as a law enforcement officer is illegal but saying you're a basketball player will get you time?

[whistler162]

196. Only illegal if you are actually a UConn BB player!

[Odin2005]

193. What ever happened to getting to know somebody before having sex with them?

I have no sympathy for guys that get charged because they had a one-night-stand with a 13yo claiming she was 18. Maybe they should get the knew the person they are fucking rather than treating her as a living sex toy.

[WatsonT]

209. I assume that goes both ways

and we should start charging women who have one night stands as well.

I personally don't care how people choose their bedmates. And if they want to wait, great. If they want to have sex after meeting for 5 minutes, great. Both are the same because both are what they choose to be best for them.

[MellowDem]

194. There is no good justification...

so no, he shouldn't be jailed.

Will jail make him better? Nope, will probably have the opposite effect.

Will it deter others? Nope.

Is he a danger in society? Not from this, nope.

Really, they're going to have a hard time proving any sort of mensrea for this guy. Usually you have to have some sort of intent for this serious of a crime to be charged.

He might not have even broke any laws if the statute requires "knowingly" sending nude pictures to a minor.

Just look at the standard of whether a resonable person would have thought of the girl as being of legal age. Though some states have strict liability, and if you break the law without intent and based on a reasonable perception, you're still screwed. And some states apply strict liability to such things as child porn or statutory rape, with the reasoning that such harsh and unfair sentancing will put society on notice for these crimes which are considered the worst of the worst. Doesn't seem to work if you ask me though.

[Rex]

195. Very important question in the Information Age.

The best rule of thumb is...treat every 'hot chick' you meet on the Interests as if it was a 300 pound hairy ass crack of a man that likes playing Pretend. That should kill the mood for just about everyone.

EDIT - Don't know about phone sex, sounds like a waste of time. I would have to meet the person first, just to verify it is actually the person that I heard on the other end of the line.

[lumberjack_jeff]

198. If he can go to jail for not having sex with a 35 year old cop, then I imagine so. nt

Misrepresenting her age is a mitigating circumstance, but it doesn't make it okay.

[Withywindle]

202. What i find most dicey about this whole thread is that the people in the article NEVER HAD SEX.

They had phone sex. Which isn't sex, it's TALKING.

They had cybersex. Which isn't sex, it's TYPING.


Yes, I realize those carry all sorts of potential emotional-fallout issues. But the fact is that in this case, no genitals ever came near any other genitals, no one was put at risk of an unwanted pregnancy or STD or other physical harm.

I really do think that virtual sex should be handled legally in a different way from actual physical-body sex, because they are really not the same thing at all in terms of potential harms.

And, honestly, sex that's all about fantasy with no actual bodies involved...prosecuting it in the same way comes uncomfortably close to 'thoughtcrime' for me, especially when both parties consented.