We are in the middle of a second Civil War

[Cyrano]

All that’s missing are the bullets, artillery and bayonets, and the reason is geography. This one isn’t North against South. It’s neighbor against neighbor.

There’s no cure for ignorance. And the ignorant can’t dumb down those who are aware. That being the case, there’s no knowing how long this current Civil War will continue.

But there can be no doubt that we are a divided country filled with far too much hatred. And there are issues on which it is totally impossible to agree or compromise.

So does anyone have a clue on how or when this crap will end? I don’t.

What’s your take on it?

[joeybee12]

1. I don't think the first one ever really ended...nt

[BrklynLiberal]

4. It may have been smoldering under the surface for at least the past century and a half.

The perfect overlap of red states and confederate states is no mere coincidence.

It must be a challenge to be a Democrat or progressive in a red state...even more so than it ever was before.

Wonder if those tbaggers and rwingnuts that live in the red states have a full comprehension of what life would be if they actually seceded and did not get any aid at all from the Federal Government.

[juajen]

8. You should have said "unread state"!

Ah,gee, you corrected it before I could get my little jibe in. Shucks!

[BrklynLiberal]

15. LOL. Good one tho.... I think that was very quick thinking on your part.

[lector]

18. Smoldering Hell !!!!

Just try being a Liberal in the Panhandle of Fl. It's a Effing nightmare. The average I.Q. here is about room temperature.

[Aerows]

28. Exactly

I'm not too far from where you are (Gulf Coast of Mississippi). Room temperature might be too high.

[BrklynLiberal]

30. Excellent analogy. You have my Liberal, NE Coast sympathies.

I cannot imagine having to deal with all that you have to deal with each day.

[joeybee12]

45. You mean room temperature when there's a freak cold front coming

through and all the windows are open....

[Aerows]

25. It IS a challenge

I live in Mississippi. At least I live on the Gulf Coast where there are still a few of us. I've lived in the South all of my life, and I can tell you *NOTHING* conservatives do or think shocks me. Many of them understand that Republican policies harm them, and you can talk to them, and explain that they are voting against their own best interests, but then they will turn right around and vote Republican again.

It's insanity. Talk to a person that is 60 here in Mississippi, and explain that Republicans want to raise the retirement age for Social Security and Medicare to 70, and they express shock and horror. But you can bet when it is time to show up at the polls, they will pull the handle for whatever Republican shrieks loudest about morals, gay people and abortion.

I'm one of those gay people, too.

[BrklynLiberal]

29. I have been lucky to live in NYC and for most of my life it has been a liberal stronghold.

I cannot even begin to imagine what you have to put up with where you live.

[Initech]

41. I don't think it ended either.

Abe Lincoln would be turning over in his grave if he knew what the wealthy elite were doing to us.

[cali]

2. "all that's missing are the bullets, artillery and bayonets"

that's quite a bit. We're definitely in an era of cultural and political strife, but that's not unprecedented.

As for where it will lead? If gas and food prices lead to hungry people, it will get violent.

[lilbethm]

9. It is already getting violent

Gunshots in our neighborhood, and upper middle class NJ neighborhood. And the neighborhood next to it a small fight at the mall, all in one weekend. I also had a FB friend who had his back car window shot out in MA...IF ITS NOT REPORTED IT DIDN'T HAPPEN REMEMBER?

[cali]

26. And you have evidence that these acts were committed out of political

motivation? Please post that evidence. Violence having nothing to do with politics is hardly unheard of in this country.

Sorry, but there is little evidence of political violence in the U.S. Not saying it couldn't happen in the future, but it's not happening now.

[lilbethm]

31. Violence

The MA resident had a political sticker, The NJ Gunshots were a Man who was distraught over his situation, and the Fight was over people being stupid. Its all pressure from circumstances, political circumstances, RE Starving broke people blaming each other because thats what we are being fed.

[cali]

40. oh fucking please. so there are starving people in your upper miidle class

NJ suburb? Lol.

[lilbethm]

44. YES AND I WAS ONE OF THEM

Ive had to go to A food bank to feed us 3 times this year. Im not on welfare, have no credit cards, yes there are plenty of people already starving because we have to pay inflated Gas and Electric bills, and inflated everything else and our Incomes are lower...get a grip

[cali]

48. look, I'm sorry you're having a hard time, but you're clearly not starving

there are not plenty of people starving in this country.l And I know about being poor because I am poor and yes, it's wearing and it's tough.

[lilbethm]

49. I disagree

I pay my Gas n electric in Person, its so heartbreaking to see people crying over the bill. And go to your local food bank and volunteer for a day, how many meals a day do I need to miss, or how many days without food would you consider starving? You assume lots. And the hard times for me I think are over now, but hard times is an understatement. I live half the life I had 4yrs ago. Im much happier this way though I must say.

[BobbyBoring]

55. Cali, I think we as Americans view starving in a different way

When it applies to us. Granted, the poster is probably not starving in the sense that people in say Ethiopia are, with ribs sticking out and flies buzzing around, but remember, We're not used to this shit and there are millions in America that have serious food deficiencies. The food pantry can't keep up with the demand. If we didn't have the massive income growth in the upper 1% that was STOLEN FROM US, that would be one thing, but many are in their current situations because of the greed of a few and our corrupt government that allows them to get away with it.

[TayTay]

3. It would be our 3rd civil War

The War for Independence was a civil war that pitted Americans against Americans. The American civil War also pitted Americans against Americans, neighbors against neighbors and had cities divided on how to proceed.

The roots of these actions go back a very long way. We have, in some senses, been fighting the same Civil War since this country was founded.

[vim876]

21. Come on.

A colonial revolution isn't a civil war, and there were no Americans prior to the War for Independence, because there was no US. Besides, the most vocal opponents of that war fled to Canada, so I doubt we're still dealing with their issues.

[TayTay]

34. It was a civil war

And it was a civil war that involved intra-factional armed disputes in each of the 14 colonies. (The America Congress appealed to Canada as the "14th Colony" to join with their fellow colonists to the South and join in the War on the side of the Patriots.)

The term "Americans" was in use at the time, but as a regional designation. The point of calling this conflict a civil war is to stress that "Americanness" of both sides. Edward Winslow, a colonist whose roots go back to the Mayflower, was a Loyalist in Massachusetts. He organized militia units as Loyalist troops who took up arms against their fellow Americans. (Loyalist or Tories against Colonials or Patriots.)

Go back and look at the history of NY, NJ, and PA in the American Revolution. Those colonies were anything but united in the Patriot cause. There were towns with factions, places where one town fought against inhabitants of a neighboring town and so forth. The American War of Independence was also a religious war, in part, and a regional war. It was a much more ambiguous and complicated thing that the history books suggest at first glance, as most wars are.

What is your definition of a civil war?

A recent book talked about the formal, armed troops of Americans raised to fight other Americans. See a listing of just how many armed Loyalists, Americans all, there were who took up arms against the Patriots at this website: http://www.toriesfightingfortheking.com/ToryArmy.htm

[socialist_n_TN]

52. A lot of people even on here don't realize........

how divided the colonists were during the Revolution. I've read it was roughly divided into thirds, as in a third actively for Revolution, a third actively against, and a third apathetic.

That's actually the way it is in ALL revolutions. It's a minority that MAKES the revolution. They must however, be SUPPORTED even if only tacitly, by a majority.

I can see your take on it.

[vim876]

53. Civil Wars are what happens when the rebels lose.

When they win, we call them revolutions. :)

I understand your point, and I'm sorry for being so pugilistic earlier. I just worry about the slippery slope between calling the USRevWar a civil war and calling other colonial attempts at independence civil war. Perhaps you have some dividing line I have not thought of yet?

[BobbyBoring]

54. Cival and War

Those words don't go to well together!

Not a response to your post, just where the thought popped up~

[w4rma]

32. There won't be another civil war in this environment. There are too many of us and not enough of

them.

By "us", I mean regular American citizens. By "them", I mean greedy billionaires who lobby and war against "us" to take "ours".

[TayTay]

36. That depends on your definition of civil war

The Americans who fought on the side of the British Empire in the War of independence stood to lose everything, yet aligned with the powerful forces of power and government. They drank the Kool-aid, if you will.

There are always people who will fight, and die, for the status quo and for the rich. We are not a united country right now, the division between rich and poor, while horrifyingly real and dangerous right now, is also ambiguous in our culture. There most certainly are factions within each and every state and factions who would take up verbal arms, at the least, with each other right now.

[The Nexus]

57. Don't EVER underestimate the enemy. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

60. I'd say a little earlier

goes back to the Glorious Revolution in the 1660s...

Kudos for knowing your history by the way

[socialist_n_TN]

61. Hey nadin. Just noticed your name........

SO glad to see your username again. :)

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. And I am going to continue to blush

:blush:

How are you? Me, after a weekend of minis gaming (Well me taking photos I don't do tourneys anymore) was good relaxation.

[socialist_n_TN]

69. Yeah, this stuff is so mentally demanding..........

that a break every now and then is ENTIRELY appropriate.

Do as much as you feel like you can. A LOT of us appreciate what you have to say. :)

[Drale]

5. I would say that we are more in the middle of a Civil Cold War

[Taverner]

14. Yep

[Brewman_Jax]

6. The past isn't dead

it isn't even past! William Faulkner was right.

[BrklynLiberal]

10. Shakespeare knew it too: "The past is prologue"

from Shakespeare's "Tempest", Act 2, Scene I. - It is used in meaning that what has happened in the past has led up to present day events. But there is more.

Full quote:
"Whereof what's past is prologue, what to come, In yours and my discharge."


So, when using that quote one should take in mind the entire line.
It is not only that events of the past have lead to what we see happening today, but also that it is up to us what the future will bring.

[slackmaster]

7. I think the real divide is between people who take things too seriously, and people who don't

Most people want to live out their lives in peace with their friends and loved ones.

[Cyrano]

11. From your lips to God's ear. Unfortunately, that's not the planet we live on.

[MedleyMisty]

66. They're going to have a hard time doing that

in a totalitarian fascist state where everyone who isn't born into a rich family is going to live a short and brutish life of slavery to the corporations.

[PDJane]

12. There is a cure for ignorance; there is no cure for stupidity

and/or wilful ignorance, which amounts to the same thing as stupidity.

The cure is to shut off the television set and work towards an overthrow of the corporatocracy.

[juajen]

16. That is a bit "too simplistic"!

[PDJane]

38. no doubt........

but it has the basic outlines. The US population has been an experiment in control since Edward Bernays, and that has promoted the interests of the corporatocracy. As a point of fact, the original decision to allow the legal fiction of corporate personhood was a deliberate error by a court clerk!

However,that is history. The mystery part of it is why the Citizens United decision didn't raise a major stink, since that was the final decision that made the corporate state invincible...unless the population gathers up the torhes and pitchforks.

And yes, it's depressing.

[Ozymanithrax]

13. Ultimately, the U.S. empire will crash followed by a vast, deep depression...

We sill rupture along ideological and regional lines, much like the Old Soviet Union.

At some point, some idiot will start shooting, and the shooting will last a long time. The victors will define who was virtuous.

As a liberal, I would not want to live in Texas (or anywhere in the South) where ideological cleansing would be expected.

We will not see great armies in blue and gray, fighting set battles on open fields. What we will see will resemble widespread guerrilla warfare with IUD's and death for all.

[aquart]

17. What a supremely hyperbolic statement.

I'm sorry you're uncomfortable with democracy. But this is NOT a civil war.

[MedleyMisty]

68. We haven't had democracy in a long time

And I am uncomfortable as hell with fascism.

[ParkieDem]

19. I must disagree.

Yes, the vitriol seems heated at times, but I often think the media overstates this. Yes, there are strong pockets of hatred, but I don't think they are much more fiery than at other "normal" times in our history.

When people talk about North vs. South, urban vs. rural, etc., I think of two events: the first is 9/11. New York and Washington were attacked. Aside from some far-right crazies like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, were there any prominent southerners saying "them damn Yankees got what was comin' to 'em."? Not that I saw. I saw liberals and conservatives here in Texas taking Red Cross trips to New York to aid in the rescue/recovery effort. I saw people of all political stripes praying for people in New York. Yeah, some people down here may talk alot about the fancy-pants New Yorkers, their liberalism and all that, but when it comes to a terrorist attack like that, I still believe most people think of themselves as Americans and support their fellow Americans.

The second thing I think about is the Oklahoma City bombing (which happened 16 years ago today, I might add). Timothy McVeigh thought the bombing would spark a race war or something like it in which the far right would take up arms against the government. Did that happen? No. Virtually all Oklahomans -- a conservative lot, no doubt -- strongly condemned McVeigh and everything he stood for. Liberals from New York, California and other places poured in to OKC to help.

Granted, these events were several years ago. But I still liken the attitudes of Americans to a big family, in the sense that "hey, I can talk bad about my own family, but when someone else does, I'm the first to defend them." I feel this way quite a bit when traveling abroad. If I hear Brits or French people attacking America for being provincial or redneck, I'm quick to defend my fellow countrymen, even if there is a nugget of truth to that criticism. I think that's part of being an American. It's not as far as saying "my country, right or wrong," but it's about that common bond of Americanism.

[SDuderstadt]

20. Civil war?

Please.

[Cyrano]

24. Blindness to the reality of a divided country? Please.

[SDuderstadt]

39. That hardly makes it a...

"civil war". Sounds like you want one.

[SecularMotion]

42. I agree, Dude nt

[Cyrano]

43. Reply to #39 and #42. Let me say this. Sigh.

[SDuderstadt]

47. Read the overall responses...

there's not all that much support for your premise.

[vim876]

22. War? Not likely.

Impending non-violent division of the country? I can totally see it.

[patrice]

23. Each generation must work to free the subsequent generation from our crap, including

the blaspheming idolatry we make of money, status, and fame and the infinity of big and "small" ways that everyone uses others for their own benefit, up to and including WAR.

Om namah Shivayah!

[Romulox]

27. Sorry, but things haven't "gone too far!!!" just because it's YOUR community's turn.

Just like there was no civil war when they gutted Detroit or Buffalo. :shrug:

[Javaman]

33. Not neighbor against neighbor. The informed against the uninformed. nt

[Cyrano]

35. Yep. The problem is each side believes that they are the "informed."

To an unbiased observer, however, one side would obviously appear to be demonstrably and exacly what they are. Fucking idiots. Not to mention uninformed, ignorant, biased, hateful fools. Then again, that's probably the same way they view us.

[BobbyBoring]

56. We are informed

They are infromed thanx to Faux

[onenote]

37. If this is a civil war, then I guess the divisions during the 60s

over Vietnam and civil rights also were a civil war. And the divisions in earlier decades over workers' rights, red scares, etc etc.

Every time there are sharply held differences between "neighbors" doesn't mean we're in a "civil war."

[Nye Bevan]

46. I wish that in the wake of the Giffords shooting, people would stop with the military metaphors

What if some nut takes this stuff literally?

[KittyWampus]

50. You can seriously downplay this?

[Cyrano]

51. Would you please reread the original post.

I specifically stated that this was a civil war without guns, etc. I don't want to see this again anymore than you do, or than does any sane person. Please don't throw photos of those who died on a battlefield at me and imply that this is what I want.

[One_Life_To_Give]

58. More like years before the war

We weren't one big happy family before Fort Sumter or Lincoln's election. Lets hope this doesn't reach the point that 7 million men and women in uniform have to lose their lives.

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. It will end up the same way the last one did

with actual bullets.

The last one had decades of this as well, this smoldering.

And for those who think I am looking forwards, I fear I have to put the caveat, no I don't. But facts are pesky things... we will end up in either a civil war, or the country falling apart into three to five successor states or both.

[The Nexus]

63. Dying for whats right is one thing

Killing for whats right is another.

[SoCalDem]

64. the first one never ended

If the vanquished never accepts defeat, and continues the fight in another form, the war continues..

It's not a shooting war, but it's been a war of passive aggressive financial degradation and ideological sabotage.

[The Nexus]

65. aka: coerce the opposition to fire the first shot. nt

[crazylikafox]

67. Agreed. And the election of a black President just threw a match on the smoldering tinder.

[MedleyMisty]

70. Mass civil disobedience

Have you seen the polls saying that something like 70% to 84% of us don't want to lose the social safety net?

If you actually look at what the teabaggers say, the non-bigot non-rich ones actually agree with us on a lot of stuff. They're just confused and ignorant about what's actually causing the problems they're having.

I live in the South, and in my life I have known three right wingers. That's all. Three. One is my half-brother, who moved out when I was two to live with his millionaire father. He once pulled a gun on us. One was a manager at an old job, who got a really glassy look in his eyes when he said that he didn't know how you could be a Christian and not vote for Bush. Another was a friend in high school who was just indoctrinated by his parents and got mad at me for a few days over a blog entry once but got over it and saw my point.

I don't know what kind of Southerners ya'll are hanging out with, but in my rural working class Southern Appalachian neighborhood, we valued intelligence and empathy and justice and most of us grew up to be in the bottom left corner of the political compass. You can go on Facebook and see that almost all of my high school friends support gay marriage and more than a few have come out since high school. At my fast food job back home, I was the only person whose significant other had the same general skin tone as me, and one of those biracial relationships was also homosexual. There was never a flaming cross on the lawn. Never.

I remember looking at the 2008 presidential election statistics, and nearly all North Carolinians in my age range who voted voted for Obama. I have some in-laws at UNCC, and they said that when he won the campus exploded in celebration.

Now, I get it might be different in the Deep South, but at least around here, the main place you find racism and bigotry is among old people, especially upper middle class and higher old people.

I think the division is between the 21st century and the 20th century, and the old people and the old ways of thinking are fighting for all they're worth to hold on to power.

We can win. We can. We just have to get it started. If it is peaceful and controlled and in large enough numbers, more will join.

They can torture Bradley Manning because he's only one man. They can arrest the protesters who were occupying that Detroit school for teenage mothers because there were only a few of them.

If we come out in hundreds of thousands, they couldn't do a thing to us. Oh, they would want to mow us down. They'd want to go all Gaddafi on us. But we need to realize that there's conflict and factions on their side as well, and that when faced with the prospect of arresting and detaining and shooting fellow Americans, and with videos of that going out on the internet - I just don't see it happening. How would the world react if they used the same tactics as the governments in Syria and Bahrain and Yemen? Couldn't really keep up the whole light on the hill, bringer of freedom and democracy, model for the rest of the world narrative then, right?

A Republican official did suggest clearing the Wisconsin capitol with live ammunition. He then lost his job.

All we need is a few hundred thousand to start, and we have that. I can tell you that we can find that many people right now willing to do it. It just needs coordination and organization and communication across all the leftist activist groups, like MoveOn and USUncut and that Powershift one and everything. Bring everyone together under the anti-fascist pro-democracy umbrella. Make that THE focus, because it is what nearly everyone in this country agrees on - tax the rich and the corporations, keep the social safety net, cut the military budget.

So. Start with the more informed and active and caring. Get news about it out on the internet. Stay peaceful. Not for any moral ideological reason - which those are nice reasons and I agree with them, but we're going for the biggest possible number of people here so we need to appeal to more than just hippie ideology and morality - stay peaceful because it would be insane and would mean certain defeat to take on the biggest military in the world with individual small arms.

We need to learn everything we can from Egypt. Which one major difference between us and them - geographical size and population distribution. We need to take that into account and figure out how to deal with it - maybe those who still have money can pool together resources to provide free transportation for those who can't afford to travel to get to protests.

And remember - Obama is the commander in chief of the military. He's not pure, but he's also not Bush. I don't see him turning the military against us. He does like to capitulate to the Republicans, but I really think he would stand firm if they wanted him to massacre Americans.

It's just - we can sit here and be all doom and gloom and predict awful futures, or we can take responsibility, take the future into our own hands, and act. We have the ability to take this and make it turn out the best it can, make it a new beginning for the country, make it the dawn after the Republican nightmare. The ball is in our court. I say let's play.