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"How do we break the cycle of despair, exclusion, powerlessness and betrayal?" Ralph Nader

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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 01:02 PM
Original message
"How do we break the cycle of despair, exclusion, powerlessness and betrayal?" Ralph Nader
Waiting for the Spark
By Ralph Nader
April 18, 2011

(Excerpt)

What could start a popular resurgence in this country against the abuses of concentrated, avaricious corporatism? Imagine the arrogance of passing on to already cheated working people and the jobless enormous corporate losses? This is achieved through government bailouts and tax escapes.

History teaches us that the spark usually is smaller than expected and of a nature that is wholly unpredictable or even unimaginable. But if the dry tinder is all around, as many deprivations and polls reveal, the spark, no matter how small, can turn into a raging inferno.

Loss of control over almost everything that matters, including their children to daily direct corporate marketing of junk food and violent programming, is rampant. Over seventy percent of those polled told Business Week that they believed corporations had “too much control over their lives”—and that was in 2000 before conditions and controls—viz, the Wall Street collapse, severe recession and taxpayer bailouts—worsened.

The American people don’t see much they can do to counter the pressures of greed and power that tracks them daily from debt to debt, from lower standards of living to outright penury, from denial of critical healthcare to the iron collar of the cruel credit score, from inscrutable, computerized bills to fine-print contracts trapping their sense of unfairness into waves of frustrations, from being put on hold by the companies until they’re told no, no, no or penalty, penalty, penalty!

How do we break the cycle of despair, exclusion, powerlessness, and endless betrayal by those given the authority to bring down the exploiters and oppressors to lawful accountability?

The Empire rips up the Constitution and takes the reserve army of the young unemployed to kill and die in aggressive wars of the White House’s choice, with Congress watching from the sidelines; its only role to funnel trillions of tax dollars into the insatiable war machine’s unauditable budgets. President Eisenhower wanted us to control the “military-industrial complex”. Instead it grew much more out of control. Eisenhower’s grave warning as expressed in his farewell address in 1961 was prescient.

The spark can come from a recurrent sequence of abuses that strike a special chord of deeply felt injustice. Or it could be a unique episode or bullying that tolls the feeling “enough already” throughout the land. Such sparks cannot be manufactured; the power to arouse and break people’s routines is spontaneous.

When that moment comes, millions of Americans whose self-respect and keen sense of wrong will remind them precisely why our Constitution begins with “We the People” and not “We the Corporations”. They will realize the necessity for a Jeffersonian revolution.

http://nader.org/index.php?/archives/2260-Waiting-for-the-Spark.html#extended

The above is not copyrighted marterial. No copyright is claimed or listed on website. Read the full article at the above link. BBI

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Frances Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
1. Ralph Nader needs to step up and accept
responsibility for the despair he created.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. get a grip. the despair he created my ass. throw some banksters in jail.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #2
23. If Nader hadn't enabled Bush, there would have BEEN no Bush presidency. Period.
Nader and his bullshit are responsible for the disastrous last decade plus of US government. If he had an appropriate level of shame over that he'd never allow himself to be publicly seen or heard from again.
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. what in the fuck are you talking about?
most nader voters would not have voted for gore, they voted nader because they were fed up with 8 years of democratic centrism

w won because he cheated in florida with the help of his brother and because the supreme court stopped the recount that would have showed that gore won florida

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dotymed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-11 07:36 AM
Response to Reply #28
127. You're absolutely right reggie.
The sad thing is, that instead of "getting" the message of the OP, these "Nader is a terrorist" people, have already changed the subject.
I don't remember hearing the same stuff about Ross Perot. I guess it is because Clinton won and we got NAFTA and all kinds of de-regulation....
Honestly, Gore was (is) not a very exciting personality, although some of his ideas are great.
Americans demand a person with "stage presence" to be their President. Their (our) attention span does not allow for thoughtful politicians, only the "slicksters."
Gore would not have gotten the Nader votes and then Bush would have been legitimately "elected", as far as we could tell from the crooked voting machines.
Nader is a man of great passion (I did not vote for him because I was afraid to "split the vote", whom I remember watching when he was a consumer advocate and wanting to be like, when I was a child.
WE CAN CHANGE THE FUTURE. We need to investigate (and prosecute the criminals of) the past. Of course our President tells us not "to look back" while he tells other countries that they must investigate and learn from the past....
BTW, Nader IS right and I am glad he publicly stated this opinion of where we are today.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #23
48. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #23
68. oh baloney.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #23
74. Nader didn't enable Bush.
Don't ask for whom the clue phone rings.. it rings for you.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #23
88. Yeah, but how is he responsible for the disastrous, pro-Goldman Sachs Obama administration?
Give me a break. Nader didn't put Larry Summers on Obama's team.
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fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #23
90. Some people really buy into the RepubliCON talking point that it was Nader who got the bushes electe...
Put the blame where it belongs on the bushes and the US bought and paid for Supreme Court. Look at how the court is such a tool of the corporations and the RepubliCONS. The plan was made and the deal was done before the election.

The bushes had the Dancing Supremes select our president for us. If they hadn't been pulled in in the Florida recount, it could have just as easily been GA, PA or any other state.

The fix was in. The Dancing Supremes were bought off. There was nothing that would have stood in the way of the bushes. No crime was too low for them.

Nader was just a side show, a distraction, and excuse for why the vote was so close.
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BobbyBoring Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #23
103. It wasn't Nader
It was Jumpin Joe Lieberman! If Gore had a decent running mate, he would have won!:evilgrin:
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goodnews Donating Member (207 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #23
104. Gore should have shitcanned neo-liberalism and partnered with Nader!
Why the fuck didn't Gore see the error of being a neo-liberal asswipe and throw his support behind real change (Nader). Gore sits on his fat ass now, while Nader continues to fight for the common person.
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wickerwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-11 03:37 AM
Response to Reply #23
126. Wow. 2002 wants its argument back!
Nader is only one of many, many factors that led to the current sorry state of affairs.

And unlike many other people one might get pissed about (SCOTUS, the Brooks Brothers rioters, Fox News, Jeb Bush, Katherine Harris), Nader was actually doing something completely legal and within his rights.

The two party system is killing American political life and creating an intractable gridlock. We should have moved to a parliamentary system decades ago when it was obvious that it works better. When we set up democracies in new countries (see Iraq) we don't base them on a two party system. That should tell us something, really.
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
78. Nader caused Bush to win and then he went out and tried to do it again.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 04:52 AM
Response to Reply #78
80. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
swilton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #78
119. A meme perpetuated by the Democratic Party
that is selling us out to corporate America...

They had their chance in the 2008 election - majorities in both houses and in the executive....Squandered moments. Nader wasn't responsible for the 2000 election anymore than he's responsible for the debacle facing the country as we speak...

Just look at what the Democrats did to health care and what they will do to medicare and social security.
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #119
120. Some right winger was even financially supporting Nader in the 2004 election. That is why the
democrats are against him....his actions give the GOP wings.
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. Right. Wall Street, big business and their Republican and Democratic party enablers are innocent.

They have nothing to do with it.

It's all Nader's fault!

And guess who caused the earthquake in Japan?

Nader .... you got it!

So, in 2012 will you be campaigning against Ralph Nader again rather than against the Republican candidate for President.

How did that strategy work out for you in 2000 and 2004?

Obama decided to run against McCain rather than Nader in 2008.

That strategy seemed to work out better.

Thanks again for your enlightening info!

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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. Oh horseshit -- blame the messenger eh?
Edited on Tue Apr-19-11 01:20 PM by Armstead
I'm no big fan of nader's behavior in electoral politics, but he has worked hard to change the roots of problems that the political class continues to conveniently ignore.
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BrendaBrick Donating Member (859 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #12
30. I agree. n/t
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #1
18. Nader as president would definitely have helped avoid the despair
and hopelessness many are feeling after ten years of corporate rule.

But there was no way those who make these decisions would ever have allowed him to win.

What he has done so effectively is to continue to expose the virtual coup by corporation of this government.

Gore won the 2000 election, but apparently he too was not considered to be suffiently trustworthy as far as looking out for the interests of the Corps and the MIC, so every possible effort was made to overturn that election.

Otoh, maybe it wouldn't have mattered to those who actually control this country, Bush or Gore, but once they've cleared out the Naders and other non-Corp supporters, they let the remaining two fight it out among themselves, as either one would serve THEIR interests.

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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
26. ?????
W cheated in Florida and was appointed by a crooked court and this is nader's fault?
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AnOhioan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
36. give it up....your nader-hate has blinded you
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Fool Count Donating Member (878 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
41. If anything you should thank Nader for not letting a
Democratic President to be in charge when all of that happened. Who would you blame for all the misfortunes then?
Thinking that Gore would have done anything differently and somehow magically saved the country from that
unavoidable misery in the making for decades is simply delusional. For two years Obama has had a Democratic
majority in both houses. And what did he do to punish those responsible and to make sure that it does not happen
again? Exactly. That only shows how prescient was Nader's point about being no difference between them.
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wickerwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-11 03:25 AM
Response to Reply #41
125. I don't blame Nader for anything,
but I don't think the country would be in the mess we're in now if Gore had been President. There's no way in hell we would have attacked Iraq for starters. And that's $1.9 trillion dollars that probably would have come in handy even if the financial crisis had still hit in 2008.

I also don't believe Katrina would have been the clusterf*ck it turned out to be without appointees like "Heckuva Job" Brownie and with the National Guard still in Louisiana doing what it was designed to do instead of off in Iraq.

Frankly the "There's no difference between the two parties" meme is just lazy and tired.

Obama might not be 100% what we might want him to be, but I thank my lucky stars daily we got him and not McCain. We can, and should, ask for more from our party and its leaders but to pretend that things aren't one hundred gazillion times better with them than with the kind of pure sociopathic evil represented by the real power players in the GOP is just dangerously wrong.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #1
46. So the GOP had nothing to do with stealing the election in 2000, eh?
Edited on Tue Apr-19-11 07:47 PM by Lorien
Oh, the corporations LOVE that you're blaming their crimes on a third party candidate that doesn't represent any of their interests! Funny, I witnessed the cops helping the GOP steal the election firsthand here in Florida. Greg Palast wrote about what I witnessed, but I guess that you know better, huh?
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alarimer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
76. No, blame Al Gore for being a boring candidate.
That election was his to lose and he couldn't even win his own state.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 07:26 AM
Response to Reply #76
87. Don't forget his rivetingly exciting VP Choice! n/t
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 06:39 AM
Response to Reply #1
84. You guys are like
Pavlov's Dog. :eyes:
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #1
107. On cue.
Many are well trained in this line so much so they can't make any comment on the substance of the message.
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Brickbat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
3. So asks the union-buster.
Whatever.
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Ikonoklast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #3
31. Hey ifr you work 100 hours a week for Scabby Ralph, for a pittance
so his family members can collect a nice paycheck running his various foundations, you get what you deserve.
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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
4. Oh it looks like the Nader haters are in full force, I guess they are still upset because
Gore wasn't a good enough candidate to earn votes? Oh, and Gore still won, the SCOTUS stole that election, so quit blaming Nader all the time
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rainy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. We have only ourselves to blame. We do nothing about
our two party system. We do not fight for run-off voting. Our elections are stolen, we sit back in comfort. Our voting machines are rigged we still vote on them. We are to blame.
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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Oh, I completely agree with all of that.
I just wish people would quit blaming Nader. He is an easy target for people who don't want to face the real problem.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #10
20. It's easier to focus on Nader than the real flaws in the system
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #9
44. We are not to blame. The wealthy elite and their corporations rig the elections
and steal them outright. We fight against them, but they own the media. If you know of a way that we can change this (other than everything that has already been tried) then please, do tell.
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
5. Does Nader even allow his own workers to unionize?
nt
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Botany Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
6. Nader needs to publicly thank the republicans for the $ ...
.... for t.v. ads in Florida in 2000.

The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their
knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door. That's the only difference.
Ralph Nader

Read more: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/r/ralph_nader_2.html#ixzz1Jzfx6ueD

Thanx for all your help Ralph!
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. And should Kerry and Obama also thank Republicans for the millions they donated to their campaigns?
Edited on Tue Apr-19-11 01:21 PM by Better Believe It







Now do you have an opinion on Nader's article or would you rather engage in personal attacks because that's much easier to do?
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Botany Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. I have had the chance to meet Ralph and see up close and
personal how he treats other people and from what I saw he is one nasty man. Although, Nader's
thoughts and writings have some core truths to them I have a very hard time not putting a lot
of weight on the source of those thoughts and then I go to a gag reflex.

BTW in Columbus, OH in 2004 I worked w/ some republicans for kerry.
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #19
52. I actually worked for the Nader campaign in California and had several opportunities to
work with him. He was gracious, kind, appreciative, and witty. And an extraordinary hard worker. The only negative thing he said to me is that he wished I would quit smoking!
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #19
56. You didn't answer the question. Should Democrats reject and/or return Republican
money? The Koch brothers donated quite a bit to Democrats. Should Democrats reject those campaign contributions?
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 04:58 AM
Response to Reply #56
81. :crickets:
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AnOhioan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #6
37. and guess what...turns out he was right
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Botany Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. sure Al Gore is just like George W Bush
n/t
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AnOhioan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. yeah,,such a huge difference between Dems and Repubs
both parties are beholden to those that finance them, here is a hint...it isn't you or I.
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
7. @#$% Ralph Nader. n/t
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Davis_X_Machina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
11. Betrayal..
Edited on Tue Apr-19-11 01:20 PM by Davis_X_Machina
...is when you promise in a close campaign not to campaign in swing states and do anyways.
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. Do you have an opinion on the article?

I'm listening.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Issues don't count
Haven't you figured that out yet?
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #17
45. Yep, it's all about the TEAM dammit! You're either ON THE TEAM, or you're the enemy!
Issues don't matter, donkeys and elephants do. GO TEAM BLUE! And whatever you do; be sure to blame Nader for the stolen elections of 2000 and 2004. We can't let the real criminals take any heat now, can we?
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Davis_X_Machina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. Falsum in uno, falsum in omnibus. Good legal doctrine. n/t
Edited on Tue Apr-19-11 01:30 PM by Davis_X_Machina
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #21
62. Translation: false in one, false in everything

Had to look that up!
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
13. Fuck Ralph Nader...nt
Sid
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #13
42. Predictable. nt
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Union Scribe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #13
77. Lol
As always.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
16. A CHALLENGE -- PRETEND JOE BLOW WROTE THIS, AND THEN CRITIQUE IT
I'm no big fan of how Nader has behaved in presidential elections.

But setting that aside, he has worked long and hard to address problems that the politicians in the democratic party should be at least acknowledging and trying to fix -- but which they continue to ignore because of some unholy combination of fear and greed.

So how about looking at the substance of what he is saying, and give an opinion on that, eh?
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Donnachaidh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. +10000!
One of the biggest complaints against repukes is that they don't LISTEN to what is being said. Well guess what -- it happens here too.
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #22
50. It is a regressive thang
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #16
25. +1
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #16
43. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #43
53. They've been taught by the MSM and organizational Democrats. The Democratic Party
has more to fear from Nader than does the Republican Party. It is in the Dems interests to keep those who can brilliantly articulate the popular will demonized and marginalized.
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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
24. Fuck Nader. Nt
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. Here's a gold star for originality.
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bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
27. K&R for Nader and the Truth
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
32. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Frances Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
33. Nader could have made a real contribution to
our country, but his ego got in the way. He has yet to show me that he is a man who can be trusted.
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Snotcicles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
34.  Naderthers, nt
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Autumn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
35. I'm waiting with Ralph,
I want to see that spark set off an explosion that can be seen from space. K/R
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MrScorpio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
40. What is he doing to solve those problems BETWEEN elections?
Does anyone have an answer to that question?
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #40
47. A whole hell of a lot for 30 years
Google is your friend. Look up the organizations Nader has founded over the years and what they do
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #40
55. What have you been doing?
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MrScorpio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #55
59. Well, I haven't been trying to glean votes from the Democratic caucus...
For a doomed-to-failure presidential bid for one!

But, that's just me doing my part!
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. So nothing then. I expected as much.
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MrScorpio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. I'll make you a deal...
If you can make a convincing and cogent argument that he can really get elected to the White House, instead of just being a lefty-yet-non-Democratic-Party gadfly who makes it MORE difficult for Democrats to take on the republicans every four years, then I'll sit back and allow you and others your Nader fanboyism unmolested.

I miss the consumer advocate Nader of old… I'm sure a few others do as well.

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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #63
67. Neither Nader nor I expected to get to White House.
The purpose is to build a party within the ridiculous confines of each and every state. (Those being, of course. codified by the two major parties.)

Nader didn't run on winning an election. He ran on facilitating the recognition of a political party.

So, given the conditions of the rules (which vary from state to state), are you willing to make the argument that a political party (which has a platform that is clearly different from the established mainstream parties) should acquiesce to any other dominant party?
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MrScorpio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #67
69. And he did this, as everyone knows, in a way that made the Democrats weaker, right?
Especially, at the time when we were going up against Junior (Twice even!)

It shouldn't be any surprise around here why he's persona non grata to a lot of people who call themselves Democrats.

You've just pointed out the biggest flaw in these failed third party bids on the left; They do nothing but cannibalize the Democratic Party and for what? Attention whoring maybe?

Where are the other Naderites taking on the GOP in local and statewide elections around the country? Where are the Democratic/Naderite coalitions in the making, standing up to the Reichwing?

Instead of dividing the left, Nader should be concentrating on the center, right? So where is he doing this?

Maybe it's a little too hard to pull off this miracle, when he has so many lefty fanboys ready to answer to his beck and call, I imagine.

So, where's the beef?

When are we going to see this Naderite political juggernaut arise, (You know) the one that he sliced off a chunk of the Democrats to get?



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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #69
71.  The Green Party is a distinct poliitcal party. It wasn't formed to make any other party weaker but
to articulate a platform that is distinct from any other political parties. The Green Party does not exist to accomodate the fortunes of the Democratic Party or the Republican Party. It is up to the both parties to do that for themselves which they seem to be managing to in spades given Obama's goal of raising 1 BILLION dollars for his reelection campaign and no doubt the Republican Party is strategizing to do similar .

Why should Nader concentrate on the center? There are billions of dollars being spent to concentrate on the center. Besides, he's never been a "center" advocate. And the Green Party is not a "center" party.

As much as democrats like to imagine that greens are simply cranky democrats, this is not so.

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MrScorpio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #71
73. So, it's "Democrats be damned"?
"They're no better than the Republicans"?"

And why no go after the center? Without them, NO side has a chance of making an impact in this winner-take-all system that we have.

So, unless they're recruited all Nader and the Greens are doing is playing in a remote sandbox on the fringe.

"It's too hard" is no excuse when there are so many things at stake.

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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #73
79. What's with the quotes? Nothing that you quoted is anything that I said.
The Green Party has staked out its platform. It is what it is. That being, not the Republicans and not the Democrats. According to all the knee jerk Nader haters, the Green Party did, indeed, have an impact.
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MrScorpio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 06:24 AM
Response to Reply #79
83. I was paraphrasing
And, no doubt, there was an impact alright. It's just that I don't think that a reduced turnout for Democratic candidates was a desirable outcome in close races against the Republicans.

Oh yeah… Can you tell me how many Greens were elected then?

And If so, are they still in office today?
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #73
86. The Democrats..
... are better than the Republicans like head lice are better than the crabs.
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jtuck004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #86
114. +1 eom
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chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-11 03:11 AM
Response to Reply #86
123. + A Gazillion + 50 gazillion times infinity n/t
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #69
72. Do you think we should only have two political parties in the United States?


And do you think the Democratic Party should run candidates against, isolate and defeat any and all socialists and independents who run against Republican candidates?



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MrScorpio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #72
75. The Left needs to expand its scope and appeal...
No one has yet made a convincing argument as to how Nader intends to do that by cannibalizing the ranks of otherwise Democratic voters.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #75
117. How about the Democrats actually try that?
If you could separate partisanship and personal animosity from the equation, what about the liberal/progressive agenda is so gawd awful?

Taming corporate power and the rampaging appetites of Wall St. and restoring some semblance of democracy?

Promoting the rights of workers and consumers? Protecting the safety net and other aspects of the common good?

Providing an alternative to GOP right-wiung "free market" pirate capitalism?


Perhaps if the democratic party moved more to the positions of people like Nader, and put its institutional clout behind real reform, they might actually have a winning message thgat can appeal to the real "mainstream center."

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Bobbie Jo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #72
96. Perhaps Democratic Underground isn't the place to promote your third party agenda.
....or similar agenda.

In fact, I'm certain it's mentioned quite specifically in the rules.
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #40
64. A lot! Is there an election for President this year .... or was there one last year, or in 2009?
Edited on Tue Apr-19-11 09:12 PM by Better Believe It
Nader's been writing, speaking and organizing during, before and after presidential elections on social and economic issues for decades.

A half century of activity is not enough commitment for you?



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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #40
93. We are discussing an article he wrote, what have you done?
He is creating discussion in America. A very important discussion imo and while there are many that hate him so much they can't bear to read anything the man writes, but at least he is out there in the public0 saying what needs to be said..I suspect he has much more impact on America than DU does or you do.
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 07:52 PM
Response to Original message
49. Funny you should ask, Ralph..... n/t
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
51. Ralph Nader is a carnival huckster and many fools have been taken in
Ralph only fights for himself.
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. Yes, yes. And Michael Moore is a fat hypocrite and Cindy Sheehan is an attention whore...
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #51
58. Wrongo...If that were the case he would have played it safe and remained a safe liberal icon
I don't condone what he did in his later presidential runs.

However, if he were a real huckster looking to take in the "fools" then he would have stuck to his role as a consumer advocate, and not stirred up such partisan anger at himself. And he would have been a good obedient "Democrat" and blamed all our problems on the GOP.

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ReggieVeggie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #51
61. what is he hucking?
If he's in it for himself, exactly what has he gotten from all this?
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
57. Thank you for posting this. And thank you for continuing to post provocative material
and suffering the slings and arrows!
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #57
65. It should provoke intelligent and thoughtful debate and discussion.

But some, a minority, don't see it that way.

They would rather engage in trash talk and personal attacks.
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chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-11 03:14 AM
Response to Reply #65
124. True
However, I'm confident that Mr. Nader isn't losing sleep over these vociferous detractors.
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
66. First off: stop pretending you have a democracy - or a democratic republic
or any other euphemism for your corporate dictatorship.
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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 10:05 PM
Response to Original message
70. K&R for truth. n/t
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 04:59 AM
Response to Original message
82. Ralph is correct
Must Read

rec
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 06:54 AM
Response to Original message
85. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
msanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 07:42 AM
Response to Original message
89. So, the union buster, bought and paid for Repuke whore now sounds the clarion call?
This thread is full of win---Roger Stone's money goes a long way.


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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #89
92. Can you find any unions or union officials who have called him a union buster?

Of course not, but the character assassination campaign continues.
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msanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #92
94. Even better, I have a worker and union organizer who was fired for organizing.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #94
97. You might want to read before you post links
Edited on Wed Apr-20-11 09:47 AM by Armstead
The Left Business Observer article you cited was critical of Nader -- but it also ultimately endorsed a vote for him in the Clinton/Dole election.

Unfortunately the reasons then are depressingly similar to the issues today.

"So, having strung together over a thousand words on what's wrong with Nader, why will this screed conclude with a recommendation to vote for him? Well, there are the positives that were enumerated 1,360 words ago: he's smart, dedicated, and principled (even allowing for Shorrock's experience), and his central themes are central to any broadly "progressive" mobilization. Just having him at the periphery of the campaign keeps those issues alive, despite the best efforts of the two-party state to quash them. Sufficient votes for Nader could double the number of states where the Green Party has a permanent ballot line. The Greens are far from ideal; they seem to embrace disorder as an organizing principle, as proof of their authenticity.Still, it's a step towards dismantling of the present duopoly, and therefore much to be welcomed.

For liberals and lefties contemplating a vote for Clinton, one has to ask what is the breaking point: just how far right can he push the party without any electoral punishment - how many people will he have to impoverish, stigmatize, surveil, and jail before it's just too much, before the "lesser" evil becomes indistinguishable from the greater? Will whacking Medicare and privatizing Social Security do the trick? Or will it be too late to matter by then?

Whether you're inspired by a real enthusiasm for Nader, or merely want to lodge a defensible, effective protest vote, pulling the lever for Ralph where you can, or writing in his name where you can't, is probably the best you can do in 1996."


--------------------

P.S. I am well aware of Naders faults, and I am as bothered as anyone by his behavior in more recent elections. However, the "people who live in glass houses" rule applies. Compared to the shenanigans of mainstream politicians -- including Democratic ones -- Nader is a minor leaguer in terms of bad behavior.

Also, just to correct the record, Nader did not fire that guy for union activity. He fired the guy before he tried to form a union because they obviously had differences in goals, and a major personality clash. Again I am not saying he is a great boss, but at least be honest about him.
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msanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #97
98. I read the link--an endorsement of him over C/D only makes the anti-union stuff more credible.
Thank you for asserting that my source is credible.



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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #98
99. I have no problem with the source -- But the purpose of the article was not...
to throw nacder under the bus. Just the opposite. It was a guarded endorsement of Nader and his positions, which is what is most important.

Also, I just added a PS to my reply above.
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msanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #99
100. If you have no problem with the source, then you must agree with the later revelations of union
busting--

All the cites came from Tim Shorrock...I just copied them out.

Now, what you are saying is that you agree with Tim Shorrock.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #100
102. Please see my PS above -- I added it afterwards, so you might not have seen it
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msanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #102
108. You'e proved me correct--you have no dispute with the source. n/t
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #108
109. Not the source -- Just how you used it
Doesn't matter. The point is that Nader may be an imperfect messenger, but it is a sad commentary on our political system that his VERY ACCURATE assessment of our current political and economic situation is disregarded and demonized by members of the very political party that ought to be supporting the same message and ideas -- regardless of whether or not Nader can be somewhat of a schmuck personally.
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msanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #109
110. Right. Labor policy is a 'personal' flaw. n/t
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #110
115. Whatever....Yeah let's just listen to Harold Ford, Robert Rubin and all of the other....
"centrist" paragons who have guided the democratic party into pro corporate policies.
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goodnews Donating Member (207 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #94
116. This is total BULLSHIT!!
Edited on Wed Apr-20-11 02:26 PM by goodnews
You're first link is a unsubstantiated accusation without a shred of supporting evidence presented by the "victim" (Shorrock) of exactly what happened in a Nader firing in fucking 1984. How fucking lame can you get. This is right out of the Repukee playbook.

The second piece of shit is one of the worst bits of dissembling I've seen. Look at where the author begins his attack:

Nader's positives are obvious enough. He's very smart, serious, and principled. His twin themes, the hypertrophy of corporate power and the monetary perversion of democracy, are indisputably the core themes of any broad "progressive" mobilization. The populist right has made hay with them while liberals have been foolishly inventing apologies for Clinton. (There's no more absurd example of that than the latest one: re-electing Clinton is the only hope for "fixing" the welfare bill, as if he weren't responsible for the damn thing in the first place.) Nader sounds those themes without Buchanan's racism and xenophobia - which is probably why Buchanan got TV time, and Nader can't; it's always safer for our rulers to channel class anger into bigotry. That, and the fact that Nader means his anticorporate rhetoric, while the millionaire Buchanan didn't.

You know what he is saying: Nader is "smart, serious, and principled". Hold that thought. But not thorough because, the author says in the next paragraph Nader is not interested in "gonadal politics". Gonadal politics (gay rights) is a Repuke issue. Just look at all of them who have been nailed for gay sex crimes. Nader focuses on the things that no neo-liberal/corporate puppet will touch then those same corporatists demand that he wallow in their identity politics quagmire of pscho-babble. The author then goes on to cite the story on Shorrock, with very little new material. Making a mountain out of a mole hill.
Building a case through BULLSHIT!!

I'm not reading the third topic. You obviously have an agenda and it isn't to enlighten.

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goodnews Donating Member (207 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #89
113. Wow, you sound like that loon John Kyl. nt
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raouldukelives Donating Member (945 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 08:20 AM
Response to Original message
91. k&r
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disillusioned73 Donating Member (963 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
95. K&R for truth... haters will hate - that's what they do
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robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
101. Nader's fantasies are edging into his writings, IMO.
My only response is "Wow"
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goodnews Donating Member (207 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #101
111. Why the ambiquity? Why don't you take a position instead
of flim-flam. Are you for or against Nader?
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goodnews Donating Member (207 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
105. Gore should have shitcanned neo-liberalism and partnered with Nader!
Edited on Wed Apr-20-11 12:18 PM by goodnews
Why didn't Gore seize the chance for real change and partner with Nader? You wanna know why, because Gore was a corporate asswipe neo-liberal. His cynical self-interest lost him the election. What a waste!
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #105
106. And what a pick for V-P .... Joseph Leiberman!
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goodnews Donating Member (207 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #106
112. Heck, if I was Gore and had an epiphany from listening to Nader
I would have tossed the dice on who was to be Prez and VP. }(
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wobblie Donating Member (19 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
118. tossing matches
Ralph seems to think that the "spark" that ignites social change just happens. In the episodes he mentions, you can be sure that there were groups of people throwing matches into dry tender. Some times the tender catches fire and the flame of action rise up. Capitalism employees many different fire fighting strategies. So the flame that burned briefly at Republic Window in Chicago, was effectively extinguished by giving the workers their severance. The strike waves in Egypt and Tunisia were the under-current and back ground to their recent political general strikes. It is never a single "spark", rather it is many small fires, which leave behind smoldering embers which only require a stiff breeze to whip into a flame.

So don't just wait for things to change--keep lighting matches and fanning the flames of discontent
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #118
121. The workers at Republic Window won. That's the bottom line.

They are all working again under a union contract with new ownership.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 11:27 PM
Response to Original message
122. Late K/R -- a lot of people are waiting for that "spark" -- !! Those who have stolen the country ...
Edited on Wed Apr-20-11 11:27 PM by defendandprotect
however, possibly also control the MIC?

In other words, it ain't gonna be easy!!

Look at Libya for a "for instance"!!

Do we have their courage? Can we support one another as they do?





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