Is it really possible for an adult to find a 10 year old sexy, regardless of what

[La Lioness Priyanka]

the 10 year is wearing? assuming one isn't a pedophile.

you may not like a parents choice of clothing for their kids, but can one really find a 10 year old sexy because they wear clothing which on adults is considered provocative?

[MineralMan]

1. Not possible for this adult.

10 year olds aren't sexy, ever! They're little kids.

[PeaceNikki]

2. No. No way. uh uh. Nope.

[XemaSab]

3. If someone's wearing clothing that says "Hey, check me out"

then they should expect to be checked out.

Having "Juicy" written across your ass is but an example of this.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

4. lol

[anarch]

7. although how a "juicy" ass is supposed to be attractive, I'm not real sure

just sayin'

[Heidi]

10. That doesn't necessarily make the wearer sexy, does it? (nt)

[XemaSab]

17. There are many ways of defining sexy

How about you provide the definition you like?

[Heidi]

32. Just because a 10-year-old defines her/himself as sexy doesn't excuse the ADULT

who responds to child in a way for which that child is most unlikely prepared to bear consequences. Kids can't give informed, legal consent to be ogled, fondled or screwed. I realize there are adults who wish this were not the case, and I realiz there are adults who rationalize their illegal bhavior toward children by claiming to hve been duped or seduced by a child.

[XemaSab]

38. So your definition of sexy

is dependent on the intent of the person wearing the clothes?

And you think that a 10-year-old can define him- or herself as sexy? And anyone of any age defining him- or herself as sexy should be prepared to be (at least) ogled?

Or would you like to clarify or redefine your answer?

[Heidi]

45. Finished discussing with you. Your reading comprehension leaves much to be desired

(in a discussion forum for adults, anyway).

[seabeyond]

41. you are right. there is also the parents job in teaching the kids personal responsibility

i was talking to a poster that said at 16 she had a teacher she wanted and if she could have sex with him, she would. the teacher would be punished. what IF that kid was taught that she had a responsibility in her own sexuality to consider NOT putting a teacher in a position of being criminally liable.

we want to allow these teens all this adult behavior without any of the responsibility, because after all, they are just kids without thinking ability. i dont buy into it. i give my kids responsibility in their action along with the freedom of adult behavior and choices.

[MineralMan]

117. Good example.

16-year-olds are perfectly capable of wanting sex with adults. As adults, it's our responsibility to ward off such things. As parents, as you say, we should be teaching children the full range of ethical behaviors. It's pretty much impossible for parents to stifle the sexual desires of teens. That's driven by something other than parental instruction. It is possible, though, to teach ethical behavior to teens.

I think the most difficult thing for most parents about adolescent sexuality is that it's extraordinarily difficult for parents to envision their adolescent children as people with active sexual feelings. That though makes parents all squirmy inside, and naturally so. So, the kind of frank discussions that should be conducted get put off or ignored, or delayed past the point of usefulness.

Sex is a touchy subject between parents and adolescents. Neither really wants to discuss it with the other in a useful way. Squirmy. But, it's essential that such discussions happen, like it or not.

My parents were pretty good about it, and very frank in those discussions. That did not stop me from being sexually active as an adolescent, but it made me careful as the dickens.

[seabeyond]

142. i just do not even kinda get that uncomfortable feel anymore. too many traps

illness, life shifters, huge to be missing with uncomfortable. i give it to the boys ahead of time so they have the time and comfort of thinking these things before they come up and confront them, so they are better prepared.

now my hubby.... is uncomfortable and doesnt talk about any of this stuff. told him the other day, you havent had your talk yet. he says.... dont have to, i have you.

so, the other day, i shared with the boys something their dad had told me about peer pressure at a younger age, and htat now in his life, he would feel no pressure to do.

sex is in our face (including kids) all day long, day in and out. no squirmy allowed

[MineralMan]

155. I agree completely. It's just one of those things that parents have

to get over and just do.

[littlewolf]

5. sexy - nope ... cute I can work with .... as in cute as a button ... nt

[patrice]

6. It doesn't seem to me that this is the sole, or even necessarily the most significant, problem with

some children/adolescent clothing choices.

[Morning Dew]

8. If they were born on Leap Day, maybe.

Ten actual birthdays, forty years.

At that age, your mom shouldn't be dressing you . . . but that would be a different issue.

[Heidi]

9. The one person who answered "Yes" is either messin' around or indulging an illusion

of not being a pedophile.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

12. 2

[patrice]

14. And how about accounting for the illusion that, though one may not be one one's self, there are NO

such persons as pedophiles who, though they may not act upon an impulse with a given "juicy" 10-year-old, can generalize one's reaction to same, especially when repeated without limitation, in different degrees of likely negative/destructive behaviors?

[Heidi]

19. The definition of pedophile does not hinge on "acting upon" that attraction. (nt)

[patrice]

24. That's my point and, by implication, the definition of "acting" or how we

might identify and classify other types of responses.

[Aerows]

18. Exactly

If you find prepubescent youngsters sexually attractive, you have pedophile tendencies at the very least.

It's like asking "if you find sex with an animal to be appealing under certain circumstances, does that make you interested in bestiality?" Or "if you find a corpse to be sexually stimulating, or the idea of sex with a corpse sexually stimulating does that make you a necrophiliac?" The answer to both of those questions is "yes" to any person that doesn't have those tendencies, either.

[cbdo2007]

11. Don't ask us....ask the pedophiles out there.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

15. because kids who dress conservatively dont get attacked by pedophiles?

i dont understand your sentence

[patrice]

20. Because dressing like a slut has direct or indirect consequences of various kinds to

one's self and to others.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

26. so you think kids who dress conservatively dont get attacked?

i mean are you really willing to blame a 10 years old outfit, if she got molested?

[patrice]

51. Please quote where I said any of that and I will respond. Thanks. nt

[cbdo2007]

22. I wouldn't expect you to understand it.

You think kids should dress like tramps and that instead of blaming the kids or the parents for dressing them that way or trying to instill some sort of precautions in our kids lives, that we should just instinctively know who all the pedophiles out there are and arrest them all before they commit their crimes.

Yeah, you're right. Good luck to you in your quest! In the mean time I'll be trying my damndest to make sure my little girl isn't going out of her way to attract the attention of the sickos out there.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

27. i think there is no way a kid could dress like a 'tramp'. nt

[kwassa]

42. An interesting viewpoint.

I don't agree with it.

[blondeatlast]

54. Indeed. This thread is making me ill. nt

[eowyn_of_rohan]

59. me too...

wish it would go away.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

67. me three. i regret starting it.

[PeaceNikki]

88. Me, also, too.

:barf:

"like a slut", "like a tramp"... relative. Totally fucking relative.

And also judgy.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

90. also very victim blaming, cos you know before the advent of the bikini for little girls

they were all very safe from predators

[patrice]

98. Over-generalization: because someone says that a person is responsible for their behavior, that does

not mean that someone thinks that other people are not responsible for their behaviors too, in fact, it means the opposite of what you are saying. It means that people are responsible for their behaviors.

In the real world, the questions are about the circumstances, who is involved and HOW MUCH responsibility each bears, excusing ANYONE, even a provocative child from the facts, makes it possible to excuse anyone else, even someone who, as an adult, bears the majority of the responsibility or, as in the case of parents, a significant portion thereof.

on edit: too many negatives

[riderinthestorm]

161. "provocative child". That's where you go wrong. A child is NOT provocative

and certainly not a 10 year old. That's the fact and anything other than that is truly disgusting. A pervert who believes a 10 year old is "provocative" doesn't implicate the parents of anything. The parents, nor the child, bear any responsibility for the pervert's perverted state of mind if that pervert believes a 10 year old is provocative.

Is this PC enough?

[patrice]

121. P.S. The ultimate victimhood: stuff the kid can do absolutely nothing about.

That's a type of programming I have avoided in my own children and both of them have turned out to be quite responsible persons.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

99. can you put it out of its misery?

[patrice]

112. wow. Not PC enough for you? hmmmm . . . nt

[patrice]

128. BTW, who appointed you gatekeeper for the rest of us? Kind of authoritarian, don't you think?

[eowyn_of_rohan]

134. just asked

:wtf:

[CreekDog]

138. don't know what you were expecting

But whenever one of these threads are started, some will defend the indefensible.

Perhaps posing a question isn't appropriate for topics that already have an unequivocally clear answer.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

139. perhaps you are right. i thought framing the controversy in this way

would help people realize how creepy that article really is. clearly i was wrong

[AngryAmish]

84. When I was 10 I dressed like a tramp

[MineralMan]

129. LOL!

Perfect!

[pipi_k]

166. bwahahahahah!!!! n/t

[BobbyBoring]

101. I don't know

Jon Benet Ramsey did a pretty good job of it and she wasn't even 10, she was 6 and someone found her to be sexy. I don't know the purpose of the poll but if it is to determine whether a pedophile can find a 10 YO sexy, the answer is yes.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

140. it clearly says that besides pedophiles do people find 10 year olds sexy

[slackmaster]

154. Words like "sexy" are imprecise, and can mean different things to people at different times

As I think we all know.

[slackmaster]

13. Only a pedophile could see a 10-year-old that way

:hi:

[seabeyond]

16. i have been told by posters on this board, once girl hits puberty, fair game. 10? i ask

just saw where puberty is starting for some girls at 7

so i dont know.

[MineralMan]

30. Posters who say that are just flat wrong.

It's that simple. If you're an adult, age is important, not puberty. Children are children, and are never suitable playthings for adults, especially sexually. That some people don't draw that distinction reflects on their own lack of maturity.

[blondeatlast]

58. Thank you for a very sensible post. nt

[slackmaster]

94. There are some bona fide idiots who post on this board

;-)

[seabeyond]

152. there are certain things that have been said to me on this board, that i can. not. get. out.

of. my brain. i would love to. but this is one of them. was about a 12 yr old stripper busted in a strip bar in dallas.

[patrice]

46. Therefore, it is impossible for anyone to observe, say, that some people like mountain-oysters

without actually liking mountain-oysters themselves.

[slackmaster]

93. Nice non-sequitur

:hi:

I would say that the fact that some psychologically healthy people enjoy eating mountain oysters is proof that some people like mountain oysters.

[patrice]

96. Saying that doesn't make it so. You said only a pedophile can recognize pedophilia. That's the

non-sequitur.

[moriah]

97. What they said was only a pedophile could see a 10 year old as sexy.

No matter what they wore.

I don't see how on earth they said a person couldn't recognize that finding a 10 year old sexy is pedophilia without also being a pedophile themselves.

[slackmaster]

122. I did not say that only a pedophile can recognize pedophilia

That's quite a leap from what I wrote in reply #13, i.e.:

Only a pedophile could see a 10-year-old that way

By "that way" I meant as a sex object, which should have been obvious from context.

[moriah]

95. Yes, you can observe that some people are pedophiles without being one yourself. n/t

[leftstreet]

21. Power, dominance, control, entitlement is the turn-on for these freaks

It's the weakness and vulnerability of the victim they find "sexy"

:puke:

[lapislzi]

23. Bona fide pedophiles excepted, no.

To refer that *other* thread...I think the problem was the poster's perceptions.

[Hosnon]

25. This may be unpopular, but it's my honest opinion:

To me, sexual attraction is not something someone can control. And how an adult male presents himself certainly affects my level of attractiveness to him.

Therefore, it seems possible that the same could be true for someone who is attracted to children.

ETA: Somehow I missed the excepting of pedophiles clause, haha. So, no, if you do not find the underlying human attractive, the clothing will not affect that.

[woo me with science]

40. The caveat I would add, though,

is that the fashion industry has been moving toward "waifs" for decades. There are an awful lot of high fashion models who spend thousands and stop eating in order to have a body that resembles a ten year-old's. They are appealing to something, or they are driving something, and I would guess that it is a combination.

[patrice]

71. Not to mention music and movies. What do people think girls are screaming about when they see

that Beeber guy, or one of those pubescent boy groups? The "music"????

BBbbwwwaaaa! HHha! Ha! haaaaaa...!

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

28. Ew.

Just ew.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

48. well said. nt

[immoderate]

29. Depends on what means by sexy...

If the question is, can they "turn you on" because they wear certain clothes, the answer is no.

And those who consciously mimic adult behaviors, such as dress up, makeup, pageant walking, don't register either.

Sexiness involves more subtle triggers and displays, which can be present in girls as young as ten. Something can register as an attractive trait, without being perversion. It's silly to think that girls at ten have not been expressing sexual behavior (crushes) and have not got feedback because it gets response. It's part of socialization.

This poll cannot deal with a less loaded question like, "Can one ten year old be judged to be sexier than another?"

--imm

[patrice]

44. 1+

[OhioDoink]

31. Nope.

[KittyWampus]

33. Does the OP'er think it's possible to sexualize a 10 year old girl?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

34. no. i think its possible to make a 10 year old creepy looking with excessive makeup

like in a pageant or something. but creepy is not the same as sexy or sexualized.

[KittyWampus]

39. Here's a quote from the article posted in another thread indicating girls are sexualized

and the effect that has on their self image:

In 2007, the American Psychological Association's Task Force on the Sexualization of Girls issued a report linking early sexualization with three of the most common mental-health problems of girls and women: eating disorders, low self-esteem and depression. There's nothing inherently wrong with parents wanting to appease their daughters by buying them the latest fashions. But is getting cool points today worth the harm dressing little girls like prostitutes could cause tomorrow?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

43. the article quote from apa is editorialized. i believe that advertising to kids

that promotes them as sexual beings, can have deleterious effects on them. in general advertising geared to cause women to buy things, has deleterious effects.

however i still hold that a 10 year can wear anything and not be considered sexy, by non-pedophiles.

[lapislzi]

50. You seem to know everything about how prostitutes and tramps dress.

Please, enlighten me. I could be dressing like a tramp and not even realize it. The horror! I could be inflaming all the men around me, and whatever happens to me will be my fault.

Please help.

[KittyWampus]

55. "and whatever happens to me will be my fault"? Never would imply such a thing.

And it's sick you'd post that.

[lapislzi]

64. Well, I never received the How to Dress Like a Tramp memo

And you seem to know all about it. Is there a manual I can refer to?

[patrice]

53. Ergo, the meanings of all things are limited to what you say they are. nt

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[patrice]

36. Can anyone tell me why this whole conversation is limited to how I/you react instead of

consideration of the possible consequences of such SOCIAL behaviors in our SOCIAL lives, please?

- Or -

Explain to me, instead, why one is not in fact responsible for the consequences of lighting a small smokey fire in an over-size trash can and screaming "FIRE!!!" in a darkened crowded theater with too few exits.

[Iggo]

37. Um...nuh-uh.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

47. i bet if this was stated in the context of a muslim country

declaring that 10 year olds cannot act provocatively in clothing or make-up, we would have seen some interesting reactions from people.

[riderinthestorm]

162. You are sooooo bad!!!

:spank: Please don't go there, the reactions on this thread are bad enough! :crazy:

[mn9driver]

49. Assuming one isn't a pedophile?

Then, no.

The problem is that pedophiles DO find 10 year olds sexy.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

52. yes, but pedophiles find 10 years old sexy regardless of what they wear

since apparently 'trampy looking' 10 year olds is only a current social problem, whereas pedophilia has existed forever

[cbdo2007]

70. So, in your opinion, child porn is not a problem. Really ALL pictures of kids are the problem.

whether clothed or unclothed?

You seem to be caught up on the issue here being only "violent pedophiles" which isn't the issue at all. The issue here is kids attracting extra attention to themselves from the sickos who find them attractive, not dressing sexy and turning a normal person into a pedophile.

The pedophiles are out there right now looking for kids to victimize and your opinion, that a fully clothed child with overprotective parents is just as vulnerable as a child who's parents encourage them to dress like a college girl going out to the bar, is incorrect.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

73. no child porn is a problem. how is children being used as sexual objects not a problem

however if a ten year wants to walk around in a halter or whatever, i am not going to condemn her and call her trampy either

do you know kids who participate in child porn willingly? what an absurd conclusion.

[cbdo2007]

83. You are defending people who participate in "child porn" willingly.

"child porn" doesn't have to be naked kids, it is kids who are objectified by pedophiles.

If there are two 8 year old girls at the mall, one who's skin is completely covered with jeans, a sweater, a coat, etc. and the other dressed in a miniskirt and halter-top, the one dressed in the miniskirt and haltertop is the one more likely to be "checked out" and photographed by a pedophile looking for something to trade online.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

86. no i am not, i am saying you are creating a false equivalence

one in which a child is used as a sexual object for an adults pleasure and another where a child chooses an outfit and is condemned for it.

[cbdo2007]

105. You mean....

"one in which a child is used as a sexual object for an adults pleasure and another where a child chooses an outfit and is used as a sexual object for an adults pleasure."

The outcomes are the same in the real world, whether you think it's all just a "false equivalence" or not.

[riderinthestorm]

163. Uh, you just reframed La Lioness Priyanka's response to mean something totally different

her real post said, "one in which a child is used as a sexual object for an adults pleasure and another where a child chooses an outfit and is condemned for it"

Which is nothing like "where a child chooses an outfit and is used as a sexual object for an adults pleasure."

And the outcomes of those two very different statements are entirely different. Pretty creepy the difference in your interpretation of her words.....

[La Lioness Priyanka]

168. you can't use quotes, if you wont quote honestly.

[patrice]

82. 1+ = Absolutists, read that authoritarians, trip over themselves all of the time.

[patrice]

65. bingo. It's like telling a starving person who's watching you eat an ice-cream cone to not be hungry

[MineralMan]

56. Appropriate clothing for little girls...

Still in style today. I see kids in overalls all the time around here.

[patrice]

87. Works for me, if freely, as possible, chosen. The girls in this country could do worse than

aspire to be just a little like Scout.

[MineralMan]

100. Well, every kid is different, but parents have a lot to do with

how kids grow up. Scout was a tomboy, and that's not a bad thing. Some little girls love girly things. There's really no single solutions to dressing kids, of course. But, until their teens, kids are, or should be, pretty biddable. Once they hit the teen years, though, all bets are off. Even though their sexuality is off-limits to adults, adolescents definitely have a sexual side. It's going to get expressed. But, I think that maintaining a non-sexual emphasis on clothing until kids reach adolescence should be a high priority for parents. At the very minimum, it shouldn't be emphasized for pre-adolescent kids.

But, what do I know? I'm a geezer.

[patrice]

106. I like your point about emphasis, too much one way or the other creates REAL problems and

responsible parents should factor in SOCIAL context relative to social behaviors.

[MineralMan]

110. Yeah. Raising children is a pretty complex thing.

Not everyone gets everything right. Fortunately, most people survive all the inconsistencies. There are few, if any, perfect parents, and no two kids are alike.

[hlthe2b]

57. "Sexy?" No... dressed too "provocatively adult" for the age... yes.

[howard112211]

60. AFAIK, studies show that most men can find prepubescent children attractive,

but these feelings are subordinate to their feelings for adults, except an estimated 0.5 percent to 7 percent which are preferentially attracted to children.

Link to a ppt with some info:

http://www.google.de/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=15&ved=0CDwQFjAEOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.b4uact.org%2FMythsAndFacts.ppt&rct=j&q=scientific%20study%20men%20find%20minors%20attractive&ei=k9mtTca_CY2Mswav6t3XDA&usg=AFQjCNEOoPzYqUi2jmCJAurP3G5mhohPdg&cad=rja

The link includes a discussion of myths related to pedophilia, such as that pedophiles are child molesters and that child molesters are mostly pedophiles (actually most of them are not).

There have been attempts to treat this with similar methods that were used on homosexuality in the past, which were similarly unsuccessful.



Lol, the poll says something different.

[patrice]

68. 1+ and not wanting to admit that about "normal" people is part of what appears to be

sexual-schizophrenia in our culture that causes all kinds of trouble.

[lapislzi]

79. OK, I get it.

The difference being, even if you think a 10-year-old is sexy, a mature, well-adjusted adult would not act on this. Right?

[howard112211]

91. Basically yes. Morality is defined by actions, not by thoughts or feelings.

By our very nature, we humans have all sorts of drives. We want to kill, we are greedy, often selfish and destructive. But we can also make the choice to not follow every impulse our animal nature gives us.

[seabeyond]

191. the site was blocked so couldnt read, but

i find both gender kids attractive. i think my oldest son attractive. my youngest son is maturing and at times, i see that same attractive.

i do not feel sexual to any of the kids.

so, in that study i cant get into, are you talking attractive, or sexually attractive. two different things. i find lots of people attractive. even really old people, and none of them appeals to me sexually

[qazplm]

61. ordinarily no

then again there are exceptions. Today's 10 year olds can be up to 5-3, 5-4, already with breasts, makeup, sexy clothes...

the challenge then is if you see them across the street and don't otherwise know they are 10, then yes someone might find them sexy.

If you know they are 10 that obviously takes a ton of that out but sexual desire is a fairly autonomic thing, so it isn't completely mental, and so those saying it's impossible to be sexually attracted at all I think are underestimating the automatic nature of sexual feelings.

Now, acting on those feelings, whole nother kettle of fish and no sane/decent person does it.

[eggplant]

62. Some people find fire hydrants sexy.

Stop condemning people for what's rattling around in their brains. If they choose to act inappropriately, that's different.

Or would you be willing to put your deepest darkest thoughts up to public scrutiny?

[hlthe2b]

66. Not even the sheep are safe in some parts of the country...

;)

[patrice]

63. Maybe I'll go look it up, but I think it's generally recognized that children do have their own sexu

ality, peri-sexuality if you will. All of the mechanisms for stimulation are there and what they lack are what we refer to as "adult" programming for manifestation of that sexuality.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

75. yes, children have their own sexuality. which again has nothing to do

with whether normal adults find them sexy or in worse case scenario 'trampy'.

[patrice]

89. Nothing? You're denying millenia of hard-wiring. You lose. nt

[La Lioness Priyanka]

92. LOL

:rofl:

[patrice]

103. Please respond to my point, i.e. discount ALL of evolution. nt

[Bunny]

143. I think she gave your point all due consideration.

LOL

[ecstatic]

69. I think the CNN guy made a factual observation

Like if I see Pam Anderson and note that she's dressed sexy--doesn't mean I'm attracted to her.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

76. trampy and sexy are value judgments, not simple observations.

[LanternWaste]

72. the thread which speak of consequences...

As an aside...

There are a few responses in the thread which speak of consequences (directly or indirectly) resulting from the attire of the ten year old. I do believe this is precisely the same rationalization used by male-dominated cultures which legislate/force women to cover their faces. Looks like our patriarchal customs are a wee bit more ingrained than we may imagine.




And in response to your original query, no-- I don't think it's possible... without conditioning.

[patrice]

74. False dichotomies are not reality based. You're over-generalizing, otherwise I might agree with you.

[LanternWaste]

78. When they're false, yes.

When they're false, yes. I'm the first to admit we all have biases based on our culture and our social mores that we have difficulty inferring even in ourselves; so I rarely rule them out without firm evidence to the contrary. And quite often, traditions do indeed correlate to specific cultural directions.

ed: sp

[patrice]

85. True. I should have used a phrase something like "This possibly false dichotomy.." Tks for the catch

:hi:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

77. i agree. i think if this had been a muslim cleric writing to tell parents

to cover up little girls and stop them from looking trampy, we would have seen a very different reaction from du'ers.

[LanternWaste]

80. Precisely.

The only difference (if any) is merely in degrees rather than in actual content.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

81. i almost want to pose as a muslim cleric to write an article like that

just to do a contrast on the publics reaction

[DireStrike]

102. It really depends on the development rate of the child

Kids are hitting puberty younger and younger these days. It's extremely unlikely for a 10 year old to have the features of a sexually mature adult, but not impossible.

The vast majority of people can regard as sexy any physically mature person, regardless of age. Most people never find people who are physically immature to be sexy.

[themadstork]

186. Yeah.

At first glance many people would probably find a physically mature person to be attractive, regardless of age. Of course this first impression disappears rapidly once the person's age and emotional/intellectual immaturity evince themselves.

[Rex]

104. How? Please explain what is sexy about a ten year old!

Nothing and this topic is disgusting IMO. Children are not supposed to be sexy, it just doesn't work and anyone that says otherwise has a mental condition.

[patrice]

108. Take a look at PsycLit or a DSM someday. It's a fact that manifests itself in various degrees in

various ways and the real questions are about what to do about it.

[Rex]

115. It is a mental condition, common sense tells the average person

that a 10 year old child does not look sexy.

[patrice]

127. Conditioning, some of it more hardwired, some of it more arbitrary. The measure of freedom,

IMO, is one's awareness of the probabilities for which is what and what authentic powers a person tries, more or less successfully, to direct and adapt to that functionally.

[libmom74]

107. As the mother of a

10 year old I find this question and some of the replies extremely disturbing.

[patrice]

109. How much of the thread have you actually read? Researched? nt

[libmom74]

116. Enough to

see that most people on the thread are also disturbed by the idea of pedophilia but that there are a couple of people referring to ten year old girls dressing in a sexy and appealing way that may make them attractive to some to which I say gross and please stay away from all of their local elementary schools and playgrounds.

[patrice]

124. I have no objection to that. & There are a BUNCH of stuff going on in this thread. One of

which is the various degrees, or the non-existence thereof, of responsibility for various sexual stimuli and various responses.

[cliffordu]

111. Uh, finding a 10 year old sexy defines a pedophile.

[qazplm]

118. well

I think the definition is that a pedophile only or primarily finds pre-pubescent people sexually attractive, not that if you ever find one sexy, even for a moment, you are a pedophile.

[cliffordu]

119. A 10 year old? Really???

ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?

[MacNfries]

113. well, a lot of adult males seem to like to respond to threads like this ...

It appears this is one of the more popular threads ... geesh ... runs off the screen for a mile and everyone has a strong opinion.

Just like the TV sitcom "Sixteen & Pregnant" which is so popular on TV ... its called Sensationalism

Sex sells, and young sex sells more, just no one wants to admit it.

[slackmaster]

123. Normal adult males have an instinct to protect children

I find any discussion of sexualizing children to be repugnant.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

114. Not only no but fuck NO. nt

[frebrd]

120. No, I don't think a ten-year-old in sexy clothing.......

is sexy - just grotesque.

[slackmaster]

125. I always think of the late Jon-Benet Ramsey, and how revolting I find her parents.

:argh:

[patrice]

130. According to some people in this thread, those parents did nothing wrong. There was no sexuality

implied in that child's behavior, because no "normal" person would have perceived it as such, which brings up the question, "So, how do you suppose 'normal' people avoid in-appropriate responses, unless they recognize the stimuli on some level?"

BTW, if you don't know already, read up on the statistical definition of what a norm is.

[slackmaster]

131. I have a degree in psychology, and am very well aware of what constitutes a norm

Normal adults do not feel sexually stimulated by children no matter how they are dressed or groomed.

[patrice]

135. A norm is a mathematic derivation acquired from measurments that vary from very high to very low.

Thus, all norms imply the "abnormal".

From a macro-perspective, conventional descriptive statistics says: Defined behaviors are observed and counted, some are more common than others, high incidence, others are less common than others, low incidence; given an unlimited sample, authentically representative of the subject population, and valid and reliable testing methods, MOST of the incidents of the subject behaviors will cluster around the half-way point between the high incidence and the low incidence measures. This means that the factors that determine the probability of whether any given individual random person from the subject population exhibits a defined behavior, sexual response to possibly-sexual stimuli in this case, are a mix determiners ranging from strong to weak and all degrees thereof between, but the fact that most will cluster around the mean does not signify that there are no high responder and there are no low responders.

[patrice]

141. The point being that, though the mixed factors are more probable, it still matters a GREAT deal

whether the person who offers to scoot over on the picnic bench at the local festival, for your un-supervised 10-year-old daughter (and her friends), is a high responder or not.

[slackmaster]

153. In terms of criminal law and morality, overt behavior is all that matters

Diagnostic criteria and norms notwithstanding.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

137. thank you. i too have a degree in psychology

:hi:

[patrice]

145. Well then, one would think you'd be better acquainted with the literature on sexuality in children.

:hi:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

146. your debating style is to draw false equivalence, blame victims and

defend the indefensible and writing non sequiturs. making my degree in psychology or knowledge of child sexuality immaterial

[Bunny]

147. I have a degree in Psychology, too.

Some strange things being said in this thread, am I right?

:hi:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

150. blaming a 10 year old clothes for her potential rape or attack

is possibly the insanest thing i have heard. even from du.

:hi:

[seabeyond]

158. wow. only read about 50% of the posts but have seen nowhere blame for potential rape or attack

where is someone saying the 10 yr old is at fault and caused her rape or attack?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

159. yeah, i am not surprised you dont. nt

[seabeyond]

160. really? are you stating that i think a child is asking for rape? or attack? what a disgusting

thing to say.

pretty damn sick.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

165. i didnt say that. you're funny. you make up an accusation, then get outraged about it. nt

[seabeyond]

167. then what were you saying. i asked where someone is saying the 10 yr old is askin for rape or

assault. that out of half the post on this very big thread that i have read, i have not read any poster that is saying the ten year old is asking to be raped or assaulted.

your comment suggests it is a given i would not see that remark.

so what the fuck are you saying.

can you point me to a poster that has said a 10 year old is asking for rape or assault by her dress.....?

you were making a dig. it was obvious. so, what is it?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

170. i'll post only one example though there are several. i dont want to get into trouble for call outs

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=922727&mesg_id=923509

[seabeyond]

176. thank you. nt

[La Lioness Priyanka]

136. yeah i can agree with that in many situations. jon benet comes to mind

creepy but not sexy

[tishaLA]

126. There's a famous portrait of Brooke Shields by Avedon or Scavullo

taken when she was in the 10-12 yr old range. She is topless but has that Brooke Shields face she has seemingly had forever--the look that conveys both innocence and knowledge. I remember hearing that, at the time the photo was produced, it caused quite a stir because people saw it as unabashedly sexualizing a prepubescent and unnecessarily provocative. It has even been removed from exhibitions because it still gets people's dander up.

When I saw it, though, I didn't understand the controversy. It looked like a portrait of a beautiful girl.

Ah! Here it is. http://sotuzibiharid.blog138.fc2.com/

[slackmaster]

132. Brooke Shields is a shrewd, intelligent, talented woman and looks far better to me now than then

[patrice]

133. Thanks for that example. Well, I don't see sex there, but there is this odd troubling incongruen

ce between her face, which does seem older, and her body and her body looks VERY vulnerable. If she were my daughter, I would not allow anyone but myself and her father to look at this picture.

[TheKentuckian]

144. Probably not. However, some a little older are about impossible to distinguish from

those in their 20's by eye alone.

[lunatica]

148. There is no such thing as provocation for rape

Attractiveness has nothing to do with it either.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

149. amen.

[cbdo2007]

164. Are you a rapist?

That sounds like it was taken from a text book rather than from the real world, unless you know something the rest of us don't.

Many women get stalked, harrassed, groped, secretly photographed, leered at, followed, etc. because they are attractive. Sure they may not all get raped but to claim that all of these things just are just random and happen out of coincidence is absurd.

[riderinthestorm]

177. Sexual predators do not remember what their victims were wearing

I believe I read in one study it was something like more than 90% of sexual predators did not remember what their victims were wearing.

They simply saw prey. Someone who looked like a body they could over power, or they could "take", or control.

Rape is about power and control. It has absolutely nothing to do with what a person is wearing (or grandmas, infants, etc would never be victims - which they are).

I have studied rapists. I started working at my first rape crisis center as a freshman in college more than 30 years ago. I've since been involved in women's shelters, rape crisis lines, rape crisis advocacy, incest abuse counseling and more. "Many" women don't get targeted because they are attractive. They get targeted because they are seen as easy prey.

[Jamastiene]

179. Thank you.

I wish more people realized that rape has nothing to do with attractiveness or even sexiness. It is about power and control.

[cbdo2007]

182. haha, just because they "don't remember" what their victims were wearing

doesn't mean it didn't have a bearing on why they picked that person. We all know rape is about "power" and "control" but the question is how are the victims chosen. Is it a completely random act or is the rapist switched on by physical factors? You admit that it can be a factor, so why act like it is black and white?

Also, what does this conversation have to do with rape? There are many other sexual crimes that happen far more often than rape, and in many cases the victims are chosen due to their attractiveness. That's what the OP is about.

Is an 8 year old girl who is dressed a certain way likely to get raped because of the way she is dressed? I think we can all agree and say probably not. Is she more likely to be seen as attractive to a pedophile who finds young girls attractive because of the way she dressed if it is provocative to that pedophile? Of course.

[riderinthestorm]

185. You can be dressed in a burqa and raped.

You can be dressed in high heels and raped.

A person getting sexually assaulted is based on if the victim can be victimized. A woman with no peripheral vision, with almost a bag over her head, and dressed in a tent can be easily dragged down and overpowered. There's a lot of cloth there to grab. A woman in high heels can't run effectively, she's easily grabbed and dragged down and overpowered. Their clothing is "important" only in that it may be a factor in how it facilitates the crime.

And no, in "many cases" women/victims/survivors are NOT chosen due to their attractiveness. They are chosen because they are easy prey. In fact, virtually all of them are chosen because they can be controlled and the perp has the power.

The OP is in no way about whether 8 year olds are attractive to pedophiles because of the way they are dressed. Quite the opposite actually. Nobody is or should be sexually attracted to a child unless they are deviant.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

151. what if you don't know the age of the person? what if it is an ad in a magazine

with make up and lighting and a provocative pose.

[conspirator]

156. 10 no. But 14 definitely nt

[ismnotwasm]

157. Boys or girls?

Or does it matter? In our society, Little girls are automatically sexualized, as well as summed up by body parts; which may or may not make them 'sexy' to people with damaged or immature sexuality (leaving aggressive pedophilia out of it) Little Boys would have to be somewhat feminized to get the same 'effect'I think, but that's what you get in a patriarchy.

[bluestate10]

169. I see 10 year olds and even 17 year olds as children in different stages

of their early lives. There is nothing about them that I find sexy. I don't think of children in that way.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

171. Thank goddess for responses like this one.

[cbdo2007]

174. This is the same thing all of us have said!

Good grief. I can't possibly believe you have a degree in psychology yet have such a limited view of how people think.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

175. LOL

:eyes: yeah right

[houstonintc]

172. I'll have to say no.

I find it a bit unnerving when a girl that young is dressed like that. Some sort of inflective revulsion comes up, mostly because you expect it more on someone who, well has the developed body to fill it out.

Otherwise it is... not sure what else to say save for reviling about it.

[w8liftinglady]

173. My partner has had more than he cares to remember that were victims of incest/rape

first as an MP,then as a sheriff and now as a teacher of 5th graders.


There are sick fuckers out there.
Our food additives have caused physical maturation(not emotional) to occur at younger ages.

My partner had to counsel 2 4th graders for sexual conduct last week.The female had already been "broken-in" by mom's old boyfriend.

I will NEVER excuse sexualization of children.
Never.

Call me an old fart...guilty as charged.

[Jamastiene]

181. If you are an old fart for feeling that way about it,

then I am a middle aged fart, who is glad to know you feel much the same way I do about it. :thumbsup:

Some of the responses in this thread are :puke: level disgusting. What I cannot get over is how some of the responses DO seem to be making excuses for pedophilia, and then they get extremely defensive if anyone debates them on it. Some started out defensive and it went downhill even further from there. :puke:

There is NO excuse for pedophilia.

[franzia99]

189. That's horrible. The one person I knew who told me they were sexually abused as a kid commited

suicide in her 20s. That stuff is really harmful for a kid.

[Jamastiene]

178. If someone finds a 10 year old sexy, they are a pedophile,

plain and simple. That's my $0.02 worth, anyhow. I just don't see how anyone can find a 10 year old sexy at all.

[Ilsa]

180. There are some kids that are developed enough that clothing

and makeup make it difficult to realize that it is a ten year old. Some girls in the school where I work look like 16 year olds. While I am a heterosexual woman, I could see why some men might be sexually attracted to some of them.

[niyad]

183. I would find any adult finding a 10 y/o sexy to be seriously in need of a shrink

[Withywindle]

184. At my age, I don't even find many 20-year-olds sexy!

I'm pretty damn sure I've never felt the slightest twinge of sexual interest in a 10-year-old, no matter what they were wearing. Ugh.

I also wonder about people who see a 10-year-old in a bathing suit or halter & short shorts and think it's "provocative." All I see is what kids wear to be comfortable in warm weather. I think it's creepy under the guise of concern too. You've still got people seeing something sexual that just is.not.there.

[lumberjack_jeff]

187. What's the point of provocative clothing?

Provocative of what?

I've seen some young girls wearing what could best be described as hooker costumes. I don't know how old they are, but sometimes the only clue that they may be much younger than they appear is their companions dressed in an age appropriate manner.

[franzia99]

188. No, adult bodies are attractive in that way. Kids don't have that kind of appearance.

[dsc]

190. parents need to be parents

and no parent should permit their child to walk around dressed in provactive clothes at age 10. If for no other reason than if one wears that stuff at age 10, they are likely to wear that stuff at 16, when they surely can be viewed as sexy by non pedophilic adults.