Why Version Of Trig's Birth May Be More Troubling Than The Hoax

[HipChick]

Interesting read from the author of The Lies of Sarah Palin..Geoffrey Dunn

http://www.businessinsider.com/sarah-palin-trig-birth-2011-4?page=1

-the most troubling scenario regarding Trig's birth is the one proffered by Palin herself--a scenario that has been largely muted, or disregarded, by the focus on Trig's birth as being a "hoax."

Throughout her political career, Sarah Palin has been the master of the dodge. She has never held herself accountable. At one point she claimed that she had made Trig's birth certificate public; she did not. The hospital has never issued a formal birth notice. She said that she would make her health records public. She did not. It was another lie.

This past week Palin had the gall to giggle and smirk her way through an interview on Fox News in which she supported Donald Trump's investigation of President Obama's birth certificate in Hawaii:

The hypocrisy is staggering. Before she takes another step in what has been a hapless bid to position herself for a run for the presidency, the American media should demand that Palin produce full and conclusive evidence of Trig's birth and parentage. It's that simple.



Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/sarah-palin-trig-birth-2011-4?page=2#ixzz1K3sFnUrc

[no_hypocrisy]

1. I find it troubling how Trig was born if Palin's version is the truth.

Palin was leaking amniotic fluid for almost 48 hours before she sought medical care. And she choose to travel by air for ten hours to Alaska for her stated priority of giving birth in that terrority rather than protect her unborn child. Even if she had a physician on the plane, she had no access to medical treatment available at a hospital.

She knew Trig was a high risk pregnancy. The fact that she didn't go immediately to the hospital in Texas, canceling her speech before the governors is unconscionable.

[WinkyDink]

12. Thus, some would prefer to see her as a liar than as an uncaring mother.

[robinlynne]

33. why say people want to see her as a liar? She is a liar.

[LynneSin]

100. Regardless of Trig's parents, Sarah Palin has already proven she's an unfit mother

Those kids are pretty much raising themselves since Sarah is travelling around the country promoting herself and Todd seems to be an absent father. Track and Bristol were both hell-raisers with excessive drinking, drugs and sex and from what I've read Willow is heading down that same path.

I also find it very bad parenting to take an unnecessary long-distance trip when you're 9 months pregnant especially when you might be having a high-risk pregnancy. (At her '9-months' she travelled to Texas for a governors coference - her Lt. Governor could have easily gone in her place). I also find it very very bad parenting to have leaking amniotic fluid and decide you'd rather take the 10 hour flight home then go immediately to a hosital to have someone make sure the baby is delivered without stress (at the governors conference she had complications, opted to fly back home to Alaska and instead of going to the major hospital near the Anchorage airport, she took ANOTHER flight home to her hometown hospital).

Personally I dont' care who Trig's parents are but what I do care is whether or not Sarah is lying about something.

[zbdent]

20. and under her own standards ...

she probably would have been arrested as "threatening the life of an unborn child" ...

Of course, she would have been exonerated in the "liberally-biased media" ... like all her claims that she and/or Bristol were targeted by liberals because they "refused to have an abortion" ...

[nxylas]

93. We liberals just love abortion, dontcha know?

Personally, I think women should be rounded up on the street and artificially impregnated just so that the resultant fetus can be aborted. That's how much I love abortion.

(This post ought to come with a South Park-style caption reading "THIS IS WHAT TEABAGGERS ACTUALLY BELIEVE")

[Arkansas Granny]

24. Yes, her own account of the circumstances of his birth has bothered me since I first heard it.

Determining whether or not she actually gave birth to the child is not high on my list of priorities. However, the fact that she would tell a tale that showed that she was willing to endanger his life is just staggering, whether it actually happened or not.

[XemaSab]

34. My understanding of birth is that she wasn't just endangering the life of her child

Going into active labor on an airplane? With no way to know if the baby is positioned properly or if the baby is in distress?

Women do still die in childbirth, and unassisted delivery is a top way to do it.

[riderinthestorm]

46. Her water broke at 4 am in TX. She stayed a further 6 hours in TX to deliver her speech

AFTER her water broke.

She then proceeded to travel 20 hours while still "in labor", after her water broke to get to the tiny MatSu hospital where her family doctor - a GP, not an ObGyn - delivered Trig, her special needs baby. She deliberately bypassed several highly rated hospitals with NICU's for Trig, and facilities to handle Sarah if she got into trouble.

But of course, the airline staffers didn't even KNOW she was in labor, nor even that she was pregnant.

Do you believe Sarah Palin is the sort who would endanger herself like that, for 26 hours? Do you think Tawd, the first Dude, would have allowed that? Would any husband? Would her security staff have allowed it, after all this is the Alaska State Governor? I suppose she may not have told her security staff, but her husband had to have known.

Unless she really wasn't in any danger because...

[XemaSab]

48. And if course the counter argument is that she'd already had 4 kids

so her body probably wasn't going to do anything crazy on #5, but at the same time, after a few they shoot out quicker too. :P

[riderinthestorm]

49. Oh, I completely get that but you're right. #5 comes a hell of a lot faster than #1.

Which is why the whole 20+ hours of travelling, bypassing all the other hospitals, taking the long car ride to THAT hospital is all the more suspicious.

[mzteris]

63. and on a fifth pregnancy to boot??

ridiculous.

Who has 20+ hours of labor on a 5th delivery??

[uppityperson]

39. So do I. She risked the life of her baby and herself. She didn't care. eom

[1monster]

57. Most OBs insist that if labor does not start within twelve hours of water breaking,

then labor must be induced in order to prevent infection to the baby and to the mother.

If, (and I'm inclined to believe that is a BIG IF) Palin's version is the truth, then she is guilty of child endangerment...

[Mariana]

75. I just can't believe it happened the way she said.

It doesn't add up at all. NO ONE would do that. And even if she was nutty enough to try it, Tawd was with her. I can't imagine any husband and father going along with such stupidity. They had already had four children, so he had to have some idea of how things are supposed to be done. My husband would have been raising the roof. So we have to believe that the pair of them decided together do make that series of monumentally bad decisions. I don't buy it.

[CoffeeCat]

76. Where was Bristol during the days leading up to this...

...and where was Bristol the night that Sarah supposedly gave birth to Trig.

Those would be interesting details to unearth.

We can't do anything about Sarah's lies. Other than point out how ridiculous they are. Her story is
absolutely preposterous.

Finding out where Bristol was during the days before Trig's birth--would be interesting. I'll bet
Levi Johnston knows.

[loudsue]

78. Only if it was actually Levi that had anything to do with it. Short of a DNA

test, we wouldn't know.

[LynneSin]

101. I honestly don't think the kid was Bristols

There are other Palins out there that she could be covering up for.

[Gman]

2. She won't run anyway

The money's not good enough and it's too much work. She didn't even finish as AK governor when the kitchen got hot.

[FSogol]

3. Unrec. n/t

[chrisa]

17. +1

This is stupid.

[originalpckelly]

4. And why is it any of your damn business?

Really?

So her kid got knocked up?

We've already established the kid got knocked up later on, and she was honest about it, why would she lie about Trig?

[Ian David]

6. I wonder if it was the YOUNGER kid that got knocked-up. n/t

[Keith Bee]

41. What if Todd knocked up Bristol?

It would explain why Trig has DS.

[WildEyedLiberal]

47. That's not how DS works, n/t

[Patiod]

107. Wow - totally inappropriate

The woman boils my blood (and not in a good way), but really? Incest? Really? I think we at DU are better than that type of wild speculation. Leave that level of nonsense to the birthers and other nuts.

[Ikonoklast]

8. Why wouldn't she? She lies as easily as you or I breathe the air.

It belies her "Family Values" as a fraud.

[RBInMaine]

9. Trig's hers. No doubt. But she was STUPID with her "wild ride" and she is a fucking hypocrite over

the Obama birther conspiracy theory which is even more "ridiculous" than the Trig "ridiculous" conspiracy theory. It is all just one more example of how shallow and DUMB Sarah Palin is. Howard Stern pinned her down perfectly. "She's a DUMMY !"

[tomp]

89. simple explanations for simple people. nt

[procopia]

13. It is our damn business

if she faked a pregnancy for political reasons. We don't know who Trig's mother is, but it's pretty obvious it isn't Palin if you look at the photos of her at that time. At least the photos that could be found. Many were scrubbed from the net...


http://palingates.blogspot.com/search/label/babygate%20review

[jberryhill]

25. Intra family adoptions are NOBODY's business /nt

[procopia]

29. What makes you think it's an "intra family" adoption?

As long as an intra family adoption is private, it should stay that way. But when a vice presidential candidate lies about a pregnancy to promote herself, it isn't private any longer. We don't know who Trig's mother is. It most likely isn't Sarah Palin. She has endeared the pro-life voters to her by means of an elaborate hoax, most likely. Don't you think voters have a right to the truth about the character of the candidates?

[jberryhill]

43. There are a good chunk of voters who would find it to have been noble

You fail to understand the different perspectives that people might bring to this thing.

[catzies]

50. Even after they know they were lied to? Just asking. n/t

[jberryhill]

53. Yes

For example, when Clinton denied having had "sex with that woman, Monica Lewinsky" quite a few old school folks recognized that if a lady has not admitted to having sex with you, then you are bound to deny it, even if you have. From that perspective, it was not so much a matter of "he lied" as it was "he protected her honor".

The way it plays out is... "Yes, we decided as a family to raise Trig as our own, and a bunch of busybodies have pried into this thing which affects no one."

This used to be a VERY COMMON "social lie" in families addressing teen pregnancies, and particularly older folks will see nothing wrong with it. To the contrary, they would perceive the entire thing as honorable, and those going after the story as scoundrels.

One of the biggest mistakes one can make in life is assuming that others would necessarily share their perceptions, opinions, and reactions to the same set of facts.

Unlike, for example, marital fidelity, there is not a specter of blackmail or of dishonoring a commitment. A politician conducting an affair without his/her spouse's knowledge, is subject to blackmail or other pressure. The dynamic is not the same in this alleged situation, since all the relevant persons know the facts.

It is also true that Trig was born long before the McCain camp had even selected Palin as the VP candidate. So it is not as if some story was made up for the purposes of her VP run.

[catzies]

58. Ok then.

[procopia]

72. One point...

"It is also true that Trig was born long before the McCain camp had even selected Palin as the VP candidate. So it is not as if some story was made up for the purposes of her VP run."

Do you think McCain's official selection was the first time Palin was aware she was being considered as a VP? Adam Brickley started a "Draft Sarah Palin for VP" website in February 2007.

[jberryhill]

84. It was a desperation move by the McCain camp

While there were certainly people floating her name, it is clear that she wasn't seriously considered until shortly before the selection.

It is particularly evident in the fact that she was a bundle of unvetted surprises from day one.

McCain was boxed in by August. He'd spent months doing practically nothing, and every poll of A-list choices showed that he was going to lose with any of them. So he went with the "hail Mary" play.

[procopia]

90. True, but beside the point

The point isn't that she was an unfortunate choice for McCain, but that she's had VP ambitions for a long while.

Upon being elected governor, Palin began developing relationships with Washington insiders, who later championed the idea of putting her on the 2008 ticket. “There’s some political opportunism on her part,” Bitney said. For years, “she’s had D.C. in mind.” He added, “She’s not interested in being on the junior-varsity team.”

During her gubernatorial campaign, Bitney said, he began predicting to Palin that she would make the short list of Republican Vice-Presidential prospects. “She had the biography, I told her, to be a contender,” he recalled. At first, Palin only laughed. But within a few months of being sworn in she and others in her circle noticed that a blogger named Adam Brickley had started a movement to draft her as Vice-President. Palin also learned that a number of prominent conservative pundits would soon be passing through Juneau, on cruises sponsored by right-leaning political magazines. She invited these insiders to the governor’s mansion, and even led some of them on a helicopter tour.

Read more http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/10/27/081027fa_fact_mayer#ixzz1K9k6yAee

[jberryhill]

92. "the point" being....

That she engaged in an elaborate hoax involving Trig for the purpose of making herself somehow more viable as a VP candidate?

And that was supposed to work... how?

[procopia]

94. How can you not know this...

A Republican candidate is expected to represent traditional values. An unwed pregnant teenage daughter would be an embarrassment to her and a setback for her ambitions, at least in her mind.

[jberryhill]

108. You don't know these people very well

I used to know quite a few of them. Yes, in many an uptight right wing family, daughters get pregnant and the parents raise those kids as their own. That is the "right" thing to do in their scheme of things. It happens all the time.

Quite obviously, Palin WAS nominated with an unwed pregnant teenage daughter, and those on the left who made a hullabaloo over it misunderstood the way that kind of thing plays on the right.

The ONLY people who were "tut-tutting" over her daughter's pregnancy were on the left. Were you in a coma? Did it lose her a single iota of support among the GOP base? Heck no.

[procopia]

113. Actually, I do...

I'm very familiar with the GOP base double standards and rank hypocrisy. And yes, Palin was nominated in spite of having a pregnant teenage daughter, but there was no way she could have known it wouldn't hurt her chances at the time she faked her pregnancy.

[Snoutport]

30. neither are affairs, lying, cheating...oh, wait...yes, we maybe should expect honestly from our

politicians. Honesty is important.

[callous taoboy]

37. Took the words right out of my mouth. You betcha it's our business.

[GoCubsGo]

38. I don't care if politicians have affairs...

...except for when they're wagging their fingers and passing judgement on others for doing the same thing. But, yeah, I expect honesty otherwise.

[jberryhill]

54. Affairs render a person subject to blackmail

Nobody in this type of situation gains any leverage that would affect the performance of the politician in question.

It's not comparable.

[Orsino]

32. Either version paints her as a panicky person who makes breathtakingly poor decisions. n/t

[Nostradammit]

52. Perhaps because she is a leading spokesperson for a political party

that is threatening to take this country in a disastrous direction
and by pointing out her duplicity and penchant for lying we can
dissuade some people from supporting her?

I believe your indignation is unwarranted.

[Raschel]

111. Very well said!

[Raine]

66. It's my business because I'm making it mine.

:evilgrin:

[Obamanaut]

5. We don't really need to see Trig's birth certificate, because Trig is

not a presidential candidate "...the American media should demand that Palin produce full and conclusive evidence of Trig's birth and parentage. It's that simple...."

Plus, it's not really our business. Let the child be!

On edit - unrec.

[Old and In the Way]

83. It's a national security issue.

I really don't get this..."lets not go there because it will make us look bad" rationale. She has not shown proof of this Trig being her child. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. But when someone runs for POTUS and has the inherent power that job entails...we, the people, have a right and need to know. I say there's enough doubt in the story to say (1) produce the BC and (2) lets have a peek at her medical records. If everything is legit, what's the problem? If it's not....that means she's lying and already perpetrated a huge lie to the American people. By not exposing the lie, that makes her vulnerable to blackmail. As a private citizen...no problem, it's a personal problem for her and she has to deal with it. As POTUS, it takes on a whole 'nother dimension that could be leveraged as legislative blackmail or policy blackmail or nominating someone for a position in government blackmail or foreign treaty/trade blackmail. Maybe something a foreign intelligence organization or a multi-national corporation can use against the best interests of this country.

Sorry, but I really don't think we need any more flawed Republican candidates who lose by a 1/2 million votes suddenly elected President. Sarah Palin is an intellectual lightweight who would be an absolute disaster for this country. She will follow in the tradition of Reagan and Bush, Jr., a figurehead with someone else who wasn't elected calling the shots. A good part of her popularity is grounded in her story of how she kept a DS baby rather than abort it.

I'm sick of the double standards. Kerry was a freakin Purple Heart recipient in VietNam and his reputation is impugned with lies. Commander Bunnypants hides out in the TANG and he gets to start illegal friggen wars that kill 100's of thousands of innocents and he gets off scott free. Clinton gets impeached about an issue of consensual sex. Obama has to listen to this shit every day as people like Sarah Palin question his birthright when everyone knows he was born in Hawaii. Sorry, but Palin will have to prove that this person Trig is her baby. I don't believe anything a Republican tells me anymore and I won't take her word on this child's birth. The fact that she can't or won't produce either the birth certificate or her complete medical records ought to be a big red flag to the voters in this country.

If this issue doesn't fade, I'd bet that Palin will opt out of running. She won't produce the BC because she can't. She didn't in 2008 and she won't in 2012.

[Obamanaut]

112. In your paragraph about double standards, you neglected all the rumors/false stories

re John McCain starting the fire on the Forrestal (he didn't) and the number of aircraft he crashed (lower than most people said.) Even on this very website people would post some of the erroneous numbers, and get dozens of 'recs', despite all the debunking available. Imagine that!

When the Palin child runs for president, have him produce a birth certificate. Until then, we really don't need to see it.

[Little Star]

7. When Trig runs for President then I will be the first one out there..

demanding to see his LFBC!!!! Until then, who the hell cares?

This stuff makes us (Dems) look petty and small.

[iwishiwas]

11. Agree. It makes us (Progressives) look petty and small. Leave

that to the tea party.

[pintobean]

14. What? You don't think

using a child with Down's syndrome as a political football is a good idea?

[iwishiwas]

15. I think Dems should drop the issue. Simple as that.

[Old and In the Way]

85. No, it doesn't.

It makes us concerned about the type of people who are being promoted for the Presidency. Is Sarah Palin really qualified to be POTUS? Flawed candidates that have personal issues or worse in their backgrounds are dangerous to the well being of this country. They can be politically leveraged/blackmailed to pass legislation that is in this country's worst interests - but obviously in some one or some group's best interests. I've asked rhetorically, and only partly in jest, on past threads here as to whether the RNC runs candidates that are precompromised. Because someone that has something that they don't want made public may be easily motivated to vote against the best interests of this country.

If the story of Trig Palin is a total fabrication, that makes Sarah Palin an extremely dangerous person to be elected President. It's quite simple, really, produce the birth certificate and her complete medical records and the questions go away.

[WinkyDink]

10. I don't care what is used to bring down Palin.

[pipi_k]

65. Well, okey-doke then...

Who cares if Trig himself is hurt by all this at some point?

As long as people get their jollies hurting someone who will probably never advance much beyond where she is now, politically.

Expose Sarah Palin...fuck the kid!


yeah!

:fistbump:

[chrisa]

16. Oh my god. This is such garbage that makes us look bad.

Sarah Palin is Trig's mother. This is no better than the rednecks screaming for Obama's birth certificate.

[eilen]

19. I think she is a horrible parent.

and a hypocrite. She goes on about "loving her kids and family" and being pro-life yet neglects her baby that was known to be high risk at a critical time.

[procopia]

35. Truth is garbage? Oh my god!

Palin campaigned as a pro-life candidate on the basis she didn't abort her DS baby. There is no evidence she is his mother.

[chrisa]

60. Whar's tha berf certificate!!!?!?!?!

We're above this level of discourse.

[procopia]

69. The issue is character

Sarah Palin could have refused to address this issue, but she didn't. She offered "proof" the rumors were untrue, and by throwing her daughter under the bus, she, herself, gave the issue of babygate importance.

[CRK7376]

51. I agree completely!

Who cares, and besides it's none of our business who the mother/father is....

[UTUSN]

18. K&R #13 n/t

[pipi_k]

21. This "faking a pregnancy for political reasons" stuff is bullshit...

IMO.

The Republicans didn't want to win in 2008.

They knew the damage W caused. They knew how badly things were fucked up. They knew they didn't want any part of the problem they would have inherited from W, and they didn't then, and don't now, have any clue on how to fix it.

If they had really and truly WANTED to win in 2008, they could have done a whole lot better than John McCain and Sarah Palin, that's for sure.

As many have pointed out, with much accuracy, I think, the Republicans are devious.

And in the end, who the hell cares anyway? It's not like Sarah Palin is #1 in the polls or anything. I posted in another thread last night something that one of my Republican FaceBook friends said...that if Palin/Trump end up on the ticket, she's leaving the party. I told her she probably didn't have to worry about that happening. They're both fools. Of course, that didn't stop W from worming his way into the White House, but that was a different story. Lots of people voted for him because he looked like someone they'd like to have a beer with.

Palin and Trump? Fools. Buffoons. Political Dead Meat as far as I'm concerned.

so this Tripp story shouldn't even matter.

[demwing]

26. It doesn't matter how they poll

It matters how well marketed they have been. If the media can create the image that Trump and Palin are wildly popular-through sheer repetition of the meme and bombardment of the airwaves, then the public will adopt this perception, and no one will question when the votes are "counted" and the Publicans win.

They've done the exact same thing with the Tea Party (overstating the popularity), and they will try again.

[pipi_k]

31. I said someplace else and I'll repeat...

Trump and Palin seem to be political dead meat to all but the craziest of the crazy.

There is no reason, as far as I can see, for the media wanting to promote either of them. I honestly do not think even the idiots at Fox want to waste much time on them except as entertainment...political circus.


Just like Ann Coulter's maniacal invective makes only slightly less crazy people seem "normal", Palin and Trump serve the same purpose. Many of my Republican friends on FaceBook are hoping for Mitt Romney to win the nomination. I think he just may succeed.

[Snoutport]

68. Her PAC is getting donations every day to fund her minions...

The more her dishonesty or bad character is shown the less money she gets to spend on her whacked out crazy friends. That's a good reason to weaken her.

[procopia]

36. Then why did she fake one? nt

.

[pipi_k]

42. Unless and until...

someone comes forward with DNA evidence that her son is not her son, it's merely speculation that she "faked a pregnancy".


Ugly speculation, at that.


And even if that proof did materialize someday, who cares?

It's not like she'll ever be a presidential candidate. She, by being herself, has basically shot herself in the foot.

And, to many here who are trying to justify this whole thing by claiming her "dishonesty" would make her a poor candidate, I'll say again...she wouldn't be the first politician in history to have lied.

Lying about one's personal life has little to no bearing on what sort of job a person would do.

I don't know anybody who hasn't lied at some point or another. They've done fine in whatever jobs they had. If job performance were based on a person's honesty about personal matters, then a whole lot of people would find themselves unemployed, and not just because of the economy.

[procopia]

44. DNA proof is the standard? Since when?

Palin's "wild ride" story is impossible to believe. Her "pregnancy" photos are impossible to believe. Here she is at supposedly at 32 weeks:



compared to an actual 32 week pregnancy photo:



"Lying about one's personal life has little to no bearing on what sort of job a person would do."

I disagree.

[formernaderite]

55. well... my wife and i have three kids

and she's a small slight woman... who never wore pregancy clothes, and only showed the last month. I mean we could tell, but others might have thought she seemed softer than usual through out her pregnancies. I honestly, find these Trig threads disturbing. Is this really what we've come down to? Just because some freakish repubs and conspiracy theorists get caught up in exposing Obama for crazy birth asessments?

Seriously, political discourse is no longer an option?????

[riderinthestorm]

56. You obviously haven't seen the pictures of Sarah Palin during her previous pregnancies. She's huge!

And then for her 5th pregnancy, she's suddenly so tiny that not even the stewards on the airline she was on noticed she was pregnant (when she was in labor)?

[pipi_k]

62. Wait a minute...

I didn't know there was a law that said a woman had to look and feel exactly the same for each of her pregnancies...

I just did a search and found out that Trig was 6 lbs 2 oz when he was born. That's really not very large. Only 1 oz more than my largest child who was 6 lb 3 oz.

Each pregnancy was different, from the weight I gained right down to how much nausea I had.

One of my stepdaughters is 32 weeks pregnant right now, and she's not all that large either.


It can actually vary from pregnancy to pregnancy...

[procopia]

71. There are many, many inconsistencies

in the babygate story; it is not just about her appearance. A summary of them by Andrew Sullivan can be found here:

http://theimmoralminority.blogspot.com/2011/04/sarah-palin-faking-her-fifth-childs.html

[pipi_k]

96. Inconsistencies aren't proof...

and the only time inconsistencies matter is when someone has been charged with a crime and is telling different stories, or different versions of the same story.

Or if one is personally involved in a situation, such as trying to get to the bottom of how the pink thong underwear got under the front seat of the family car, or who the mysterious "Stud Muffin" is whose name and number make such frequent appearances in the cell phone records.

Palin hasn't committed a crime, no matter how anybody wants to twist this


.

[pipi_k]

61. It is when...

the best you can do it post a photo with the caption, in your words:


Here she is at supposedly at 32 weeks:


Supposedly


Is that photo date stamped? Because unless it is, nobody can say with any certainty WHEN it was taken.

All there is is speculation.

Oh, and since you disagree with my assertion that lying about one's personal life doesn't affect his or her job, would you please explain why you believe it does affect one's job performance?

Are you saying that everyone in this country who wants a job, or wants to keep his or her job, should have to pass a lie detector test? Doctors...Lawyers...sanitation workers...teachers...

Is it only politicians who are subject to that rule?

And does that apply only to Republican politicians?

[procopia]

70. photo verification

"Is that photo date stamped? Because unless it is, nobody can say with any certainty WHEN it was taken."

Sure they can. Photo dates can be verified by identifying the event and comparing with other photos on the same date. The photo below, known as the smoking gun photo, was verified to have been taken in Juneau, Alaska when Palin signed House Bill 259 at the Alaska State Museum.

[pipi_k]

74. The "smoking gun photo"?

Oh good lord.

OK, so just like Obama's parents knew when he was a few days old that he would someday grow up to be president, which is why (in the minds of Birthers) they forged his birth certificate, now we have Sarah Palin, who knew way before being asked to run with John McCain that she would need to cover up something or other because the Republican Party...the same people who voted for an idiot like W, would all look at her with disgust and run out to vote for a Democrat instead.

Or maybe even Ralph Nader.


Alright...whatever.


But I guess it still hasn't sunk in yet that this is all going to get around someday to a kid who hasn't done anything to anybody. As long as people expose Sarah Palin as a liar, who gives a shit how it affects her family, and, worst of all, the child people are trying to prove isn't even hers.

Whatever Sarah Palin has or hasn't done, that little boy doesn't deserve to hear this shit.

[procopia]

77. Sarah herself is responsible for giving the rumors credence.

"Whatever Sarah Palin has or hasn't done, that little boy doesn't deserve to hear this shit."

Then perhaps Sarah Palin herself shouldn't have given the rumors credence by addressing them on national tv. And I wonder how Trig will feel about his mother's own "wild ride" story, knowing she risked his very life and health to get back to Wasilla for his birth...

Oh and, eventually Trig is going to hear a lot of "shit' about his mother. It isn't possible to shield him from it all, and hold her accountable as well. It's the price of celebrity.

[pipi_k]

98. Again, I have no love for her, but...

it seems like no matter what she did or said, someone would pounce on it and accuse her of having brought the whole thing on herself.

If she responds, she's screwed.

If she doesn't respond, she's still screwed because then she's "covering up".


And I'll repeat here what I wrote in some other thread on this...if Trig happens to hear about any of this, it will be at the hands of people who hate his mother. Meaning just about anybody who ISN'T a Republican. Yes, there are Republicans who probably wouldn't vote for her and certainly don't support her now. She has a very low poll number among people in her own state.

But I'll just venture a guess here and say that I would bet most of the rumors that might persist will be thrown around by Democrats.

So think about it...Trig finds out some really hurtful stuff, and it's because of people who hated his mother.

Why would anybody do that to a child, I'd like to know...whatever people THINK they know about what Palin herself did. That's her business, and her cross to bear in the end. Why should we be just as vile?

I know plenty of Republicans...people whom many here believe are obnoxious and stupid and worthless...who wouldn't think of ruining a child's life by spreading nasty rumors about his mother and the circumstances of his birth.

[Old and In the Way]

86. Bush lied about his TANG record.

Think that had any bearing on the outcome of the job he did in his 8 years? The media failed us (big surprise) in 2000 by burying any Bush character problems...his drinking problems, his discharge problems, etc. What we got was a spoiled brat with daddy issues that just about destroyed this country.

And yet, your willing to give another flawed Republican candidate the benefit of doubt? Again, the media is not doing their job by vetting a Republican candidate...but we should take Palin's word? What's the problem with expecting her to issue her complete medical records? All candidates do this a matter of public expectation. McCain's medical history was vetted. Obama's was as well as Joe Biden's. But not Sarah Palin's. What was she hiding? A past abortion or 2? A missing childbirth? I'd say that's a pretty relevant bit of in formation for people to know when we are entrusting them with running the country for 4 years. It won't change mt mind either way, obviously...but for the low information voters who love Grizzly Mom's, it sure might be an important detail.

[pipi_k]

99. Actually, I believe it was a lot more complicated than that...

Dubya was raised from a very young age to be nothing more than a spoiled Frat Boy.

From all accounts, he was/is "incurious". He's sarcastic. He was/is an alcoholic (dry, or not...one is always an alcoholic).

He did drugs.

And he didn't have a problem with letting the Rove Bunch USE him for their own agenda.

Lying about his TANG defection wasn't the problem. Being a liar in general wasn't the problem.

The problem, as I see it, was that he was, and probably still is, a ten year old kid in a 60-something body. And he allowed the Rovers to suck in the religious nuts with promises, only to screw them over in the end. He wasn't a leader at all. He was merely a tool.


And since we're talking about lying and how it might affect the job one does, did Bill Clinton's lies about his woman misadventures do much to affect the job he and his administration did?

[The Straight Story]

22. If she lied it would not affect her ability to be president, if Obama lied (not born in US) it does

affect his ability to serve based on the constitution.

Not sure why any one would pursue Palin other than for political points - I would rather focus on her policies and ideals.

And all politicians lie, so her lying here does not prove anything about her ability (or inability) to lead - hell, it actually makes her qualified :)

[procopia]

45. Not pursuing...just not fooled by her outrageous hoax. nt

.

[elocs]

23. If somebody has proof about this, actual proof, then either fish or cut bait.

Without proof this is really no different than the birthers that we look at as wackos. I would hope that we would have a tad less hypocrisy no matter how it is spun or attempted to be justified.

[procopia]

40. Does this look like a pregnant woman 10 days before giving birth

to a 6 lb baby?


Particularly when she looked like this in an earlier pregnancy:

[pipi_k]

64. Hmmmm.....

Fuzzy photo...could be Palin. Then again it could be someone who looks like her.

Where did the date come from? Is it imprinted on the photo itself? Or did someone just sort of choose that date to "prove" a point?

[riderinthestorm]

67. There are numerous photos of Sarah Palin date stamped that have been published

both here and on other websites. No, not every pregnancy looks or feels the same but it stretches credulity that she could be that small for her 5th pregnancy at 7 - 8 months.

I too was small when my 6 lb, 2 oz daughter was born. Severe nausea (throwing up 40+ times per day) meant I ONLY gained 25 lbs but I still had a large, protruding belly and that was for my first baby when my abdominal muscles were rock solid (I was still riding professionally at the time and even rode the day I went into labor). 2 miscarriages in between my first and second daughters meant that by my 4th pregnancy, there was no way I was "smaller" even though the nausea was as bad. Daughter #2 was 6 lbs 5 oz, I gained 30 lbs and looked like a beached whale.

If you really wanted to understand the story before this, you'd have looked at the photos that have been posted here and in this report that has also been posted more than a few times.

http://theimmoralminority.blogspot.com/2010/02/tale-of-two-babies-by-sarah-palin.html

[pipi_k]

73. Honestly, I really don't want to understand this story

because it's bullshit.

Even if it's true, which I doubt very much, but let's say it is just for ha ha's.


Who are Palin Birfers trying to convince here, anyway?

Her rabid supporters? The people who would probably vote for Palin even if they saw her commit cold blooded murder?

She wasn't a powerful candidate the first time around. Why would the passage of time (and more people being able to see what a total twit she is) improve on that?

She's such an idiot that a bunch of Republicans I know personally said they would NOT vote for her. One said that if Palin won the Repub nomination, she (my friend) would leave the party...that's how disgusted she is. Trump, too. They are both fools of the highest order.

But anyway, whether the story is true or not, people need to leave it alone. Because there's a little boy here who will one day grow up and perhaps hear some of this shit and be very hurt and very confused.

People are so intent on "proving" something that doesn't matter a pisshole in a snowbank that they don't give a shit how it may affect the poor kid when he gets old enough to understand.

Are people so hateful they don't care about what a kid may or may not find out about his mom?

[riderinthestorm]

79. 1. SarahPAC has enormous money. She landed 5 of her candidates in office

her first time around. No matter that she never takes the political stage again, she's a player in fielding candidates. If you don't think that's powerful, you haven't been paying attention.

2. Sarah herself landed Trig in this mess. She has put out several versions of his birth story that are inconsistent and refuses to offer any clarification, nor will she allow the hospital or her doctor to clarify.

3. Puh-leeze spare me the "poor Trig!" drama. Sarah herself has shamelessly paraded Trig around in some of the most grotesque circumstances ever. She has shamed herself with her behavior about him. If Trig has the cognitive skills in his later years to understand how much he was manipulated as a prop, he's going to be furious at her about that. Let me repeat, Sarah herself has put Trig at the center of her political life. Sarah herself has used him mercilessly. Sarah herself has NOT treated this DS baby with the care he needs, every expert around cringes at how she keeps him on a highly irregular schedule, too much flying for baby's ears with the pressure, the strobe lights at her campaign events etc.etc. Sarah's built her entire national persona on being the mother of a DS baby that she bravely chose to carry to term rather than abort. Trigs issues with his mother are going to go FAR beyond any of the details of his mother's saga about how he was born.

4. Anecdotal evidence about who will vote for Sarah is ridiculous. My own mother is a staunch Rethug who believes Sarah is the second coming of the lawd jayzus. I have a friend who is a cardiac thoracic nurse with a masters, married to a C/T surgeon at one of the nation's top hospitals. They LOVE Sarah! Do they balance out your friends? Anecdotal story telling says nothing about Sarah's power. Her PAC says it all. She has the Koch brothers blessing. I would never discount this snake.

5. Sarah's supporters want to criminalize behavior that puts a fetus in danger, in just the same way that Sarah theoretically got away with. It matters if it can be proven that she has feet of clay. She will then have no standing with them to advocate for that whole bullshit (and very scary) movement to criminalize any behavior that endangers fetal viability. Make no mistake, the RR is way ahead of us in "unborn child protections", criminalizing women who so much as fall down stepping up the sidewalk ("she purposefully wanted to miscarry!!!1111") That day is coming. Faster than you think. It's not ridiculous and anything that discredits Sarah Palin even a tiny bit is a battle that helps us in the future imho.

And lastly, nobody is more hateful to Trig than Sarah herself from this outsider's perspective looking in. She carries him around like a sack of potatoes. It hurts my heart to see her handle him with such disregard. He'll have the evidence about how she feels about him without doing a single bit of "research" imho.

[Old and In the Way]

87. Well said.

If Palin is running for POTUS, demand that she release her damn medical records. Like we expect every other person who runs for this office to do. If she can't or won't, that should tell everyone that she's got something to hide. If she'd lie about having a baby...why would you possibly expect her to tell the truth about public policy and her agenda?

[procopia]

91. All excellent points

Thank you for posting them.

[pipi_k]

95. Replies...

1. So what if she's a good fund-raiser? Do you really believe that spreading this rumor around is going to make her supporters stop giving her money? As rabid as they are?

2. Whether Sarah did or didn't "land Trig in this mess", there's no call for people on this side...so called "Liberals" and "Progressives"...to stoop to her level. What, the justification is going to be, "Wahhhh...SHE did it, so WE can do it TOO!!!" That's childish behavior.

3. What Sarah Palin does with her child....his schedule, or lack of it, is none of your business. Period. And any questions he might have about how he was carted around, etc. I can be pretty sure, won't come up unless DEMOCRATS are still talking about that shit ten or fifteen years from now. Really. He won't hear that from his family. He won't hear it from Republicans. He'll hear it because of Democrats...who will likely, and sickeningly, be gleeful that they've made him resent his mom for "what she did to him".

4. You just proved my point. There are people out there who could see Sarah Palin commit murder and STILL vote for her. So what's the point of spreading this shit around if it's not going to affect how many people feel about her? Those who would vote for her are going to vote for her no matter what.

5. Every politician has "feet of clay". Every adult with an IQ over 100 knows that. Or, one would think they know. Many, many of them are hypocrites of the highest order.

As to how Palin carries her son around "like a sack of potatoes" and how it "hurts your heart", then I guess you've never seen the nurses in the Neonatal unit whip those little babies around like they're chunks of meat. And I guess you've never seen a hundred other moms carry their kids the same way. She's had five kids. After the first one, moms usually don't handle successive babies/kids like they're made of blown glass.

Know what hurts my heart? Seeing kids with cigarette burns on them...kids dressed in rags and sent to school with no breakfast. Kids living in filth with cockroaches and rats. Kids living in homes where their parents inflict violence on them, and each other.


Whatever Sarah Palin does in her personal life is her personal business, and I don't feel people need to show their lack of class by acting as badly as the person they claim to despise.

[riderinthestorm]

102. This is my last post on the topic because I don't have a lot of time

and this topic isn't riveting for me. I like Snoutport and some of the others who have put up links about this, and I do believe there's something there, there. But frankly, the Social Security thread by Manny Goldstein and Scott Walker's illegal actions are far more interesting. But I'll answer you to be thorough and then be on my merry way.

Discrediting Sarah Palin won't affect her standing with the Sarahbots one bit. But discrediting her to the Koch Brothers and the other Rethug power brokers would be very much worthwhile in my opinion. It's one thing to be exposed lying about an affair (Clinton), everyone "gets" that, does it themselves, may be a little squicked out about it but honestly, no biggie. The shenanigans that surround the birth of Trig however is a whole other level of lie if they are true. Sarah's own report of her labor and delivery are disturbing enough. This isn't a quid pro quo no matter how much you want to paint it as such. I like Andrew Sullivan. I don't think he's some unserious guy. Many thoughtful Dems and progressives share that view which is why his alarm bells on this made me look twice. Obviously for you and other DUers that's some kind of disgusting fixation. I don't think about it one whit off this site and I doubt the other DUers do as well. But to snark off at any discussion of this as some kind of stupid shit isn't fair imho.

Finally Trig. Sarah Palin has moved him herself into the spotlight. I don't like it but it does happen to be the hand that SHE'S dealing. She brought up the whole birth story herself in her own memoir thereby making it public business. If she'd said "stay the fuck away from my kids, they will never be up for discussion, they will never be exploited on the covers of magazines, I will never encourage my own kids to milk their 15 minutes of fame" etc, etc, etc, I would certainly respect that but she most certainly has done the complete opposite. It's insane to expect anyone to just ignore the reality of what Sarah has done herself with those kids. If there is a rude person in Trig's future who tells him shitty stuff about his mom, well he won't be the first celebrity kid (and he is that) to be on the receiving end of it and I really doubt it's going to just be some Democratic witch hunt to turn Trig against Sarah.

And now onto me since you've slammed my own cognitive abilities: All kids deserve to be held close and loved. Period. I do call Sarah Palin out for how she handles Trig because she rarely demonstrates that loving closeness in the public appearances I've witnessed. He looks like a prop, and appears to be handled similarly. Pointing out MY perception of how she handles him doesn't entitle you to make ASSumptions about how I do or do not care for other children.

[pipi_k]

106. Well I have a feeling you'll be back to read...

even if there's no reply, so...

Working backwards, I certainly did not slam your cognitive abilities. What I did was try to compare this seeming obsession with how Palin handles her child with some really painful situations that deserve attention more than this issue does.

Whether or not Palin moved herself into the spotlight, it's shameful for people to pounce on her mistakes and use them against her like this. It's not just her. It's her family. She might be an ass for doing it, but that doesn't mean the rest of us have to swim around in the same cesspool with her. One can tell a lot about someone's character by what that person is willing to do to bring another person down.

And Palin's own description of the days surrounding Trig's birth are none. of. our. business. I don't care if she was riding camels in the Sahara desert during a dust storm while pregnant and leaking amniotic fluid. As long as the baby was born healthy, that's all that should matter. And please, I hope nobody will be stupid enough to run in here and claim that anything Palin did caused Trig's Downs Syndrome.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[demwing]

28. The smart thing to do would be to throw this issue into the Brier Patch

so to speak. It benefits us more if the story has legs.

We can then bang the drum about how Palin MUST be Trig's mother. Yada evidence, yada privacy, yada doctor, yada yada.

At the same time, start repeating the message that--since the story is true--it's really a shame, because Palin put her unborn baby at risk to further her career.

Attack Palin at her perceived strength. Her "mama grizzly" bullshit. Question her judgment, her family values, and her morals.

[StarburstClock]

59. Why is it surprising that a pathological liar would lie?

So f-ing what if it's proven for the 1000th time she's a liar? She and all repub liars are a complete waste of time.

[Kablooie]

80. What about the baby? Will she know who her real mother is? Who is raising her?

[krispos42]

81. Hypothetical Pregnancy of Sarah Palin Logic Flowchart

[Ramulux]

82. I have yet to see any explanation about the whole ear thing

The fact that she presented a kid with a deformed ear to the world right after Trig was born and then magically months later that supposedly same kids ears are perfectly fine makes no sense.

That one element really perplexes me.

[Old and In the Way]

88. That hasn't been explained, has it?

Didn't really look like a DS baby either.

It's like 9/11. I don't know what the real story is, but it sure didn't go down like the Bush administration wants us to believe.

[robcon]

97. Butt out of Palin's motherhood.

Attack her on her idiotic pronouncements, her stupid positions, etc.

Leave her motherhood circumstances alone.

[mzteris]

114. even if her "motherhood" is a sham

either way you look at it?

She either isn't the mom

or is guilty of very depraved indifference over the health of the special needs child she was in supposed labor with...

[hamsterjill]

103. I do not buy the "7 months pregnant and no one could tell" part

I'm sorry, but if a woman has delivered FOUR children with four single pregnancies, and then become pregnant for a FIFTH time, the pregnancy is going to show sooner, rather than later.

The uterus is like a balloon that gets blown up during the first pregnancy, and it expands faster with each successive pregnancy.

[pipi_k]

105. Not true...

It's not the uterus that expands independently of what's in it.

It expands according to how large the fetus is, how much amniotic fluid is present, and perhaps even on the outside abdominal area with a bit of fat if the woman puts on weight. Or little to no fat if she doesn't gain weight.

A woman can have children that vary in weight from one pregnancy to the next.

The uterus isn't a balloon that blows up by itself.

[hamsterjill]

109. I still don't buy it.

First, the scenario of "getting bigger faster" has been true for every female that I know who has been pregnant.

Secondly, I still don't think that Palin was seven months pregnant and the people who worked around her on a daily basis, day in, day out, didn't even notice that she was pregnant.

I'm sorry, but I'm not convinced. We don't know the truth about what happened with Trig, but I will never believe Palin was seven months pregnant and no one had noticed.

[pipi_k]

117. I've had three and didn't get bigger faster...

so there are exceptions.

Also...my first child was born three months after I graduated from high school.

Nobody knew a thing.

In fact, the month after graduation I went to a home for unwed teenagers and a couple of the other girls didn't believe I was pregnant until the final month.

I was only slightly larger for my second, and again quite small for my third.

It happens...

:shrug:

[WatsonT]

104. This obsession is unseemly

she isn't president. She isn't even running for anything right now.

I wonder if people will still be working on this ten years from now?

[Raschel]

110. That's true but her story is not believable in the least. We have the media giving birthers a forum

for claiming our President isn't a citizen. This has gone on for two years now even though his birth certificate has been shown,and people are STILL given air time to discuss this, from Bachmann to Trump.

Palin supports this birther craziness, and has tried to divide our country from the beginning by encouraging bigotry and hate. She is being paid to tell lies about our unions and support the dismantling of them.

She was/still is considered a political figure and I say it's time someone ask her about her implausible story.

So far, online is the only place it has been addressed, and I say keep it out front.

[polichick]

115. These quotes are pretty interesting:

"One close friend of Palin's--a widely respected woman who had given birth to several children as well and who had close contact with Palin in Juneau up until the time of Trig's birth--told me that "Palin did not look like she was pregnant. Ever. Even when she had the bulging belly, I never felt that the rest of her body, her face especially, looked like she was pregnant." When I asked her point-blank if she was certain the baby was Palin's, she said, "No. I don't know what to believe.""



"The news of Palin's pregnancy came as a complete surprise to Palin's State Trooper security detail Gary Wheeler, a well-liked, 26-year veteran of the Alaska State Troopers who worked under several administrations in Alaska state government, both Republicans and Democrats. Only two weeks earlier, in late February of 2008, Wheeler had accompanied Palin back to Washington, D.C. for a Republican Governors Association Conference, where she had just met John McCain and his campaign manager Rick Davis, who was to be in charge of the vice-presidential nomination selection process. Wheeler remembers that Palin had changed into jeans upon her arrival in Washington, with no apparent revelation of pregnancy.

Wheeler also said that his wife, Corky, actually made fun of him when the news came out because he was supposed to be a "trained observer." Wheeler simply shakes his head: "I had nary an idea she was packin'.""

[Quantess]

116. When will this awful loser-quitter woman GO AWAY?

[pipi_k]

118. So, reading through some of the replies, I've concluded that...

a few here want some sort of moral purity litmus test before someone can be president.

Even though such a thing, as far as I know, isn't in the Constitution.

But maybe we could throw in an amendment or two...

Nobody who has had an extramarital affair?

Women who are suspected of faking pregnancies?

Women who are suspected of endangering their unborn babies?

Alcoholics

Pedophiles

Spouse abusers

Speeders

Jaywalkers

People who cheat on their taxes

Pot smokers (past or present)

Cigarette smokers (because some here feel smoking is a moral failing)

Obese people (because some here feel obesity is a moral failing)

Republicans (see cigarette smokers and obese people)

Just for starters...


I'm sure we can put together a comprehensive list that will cover everyone's concept of moral failings...