So Spike Lee is dissing Tyler Perry about his movies. What is your take?

[trumad]

I kind of see Spikes point--- but honestly----I think my African American friends aren't to worked up about Tyler's movies. mho

Spike Lee, however, thinks that Tyler Perry's movies are setting back the black community, and aren't really helping anyone by being made:

"Each artist should be allowed to pursue their artistic endeavors, but I still think there is a lot of stuff out today that is coonery and buffoonery," he said in '09. "I know it's making a lot of money and breaking records, but we can do better. … I am a huge basketball fan, and when I watch the games on TNT, I see these two ads for these two shows (Tyler Perry's 'Meet the Browns' and 'House of Payne'), and I am scratching my head. We got a black president, and we going back to Mantan Moreland and Sleep 'n' Eat?"

That, folks, is not holding back.

Perry has responded a few times, mainly with toned down defenses of his work on his website, without getting very specific as to what they're directed to.

That's not the case when Perry recently got very specific, and very open during a press conference for his new Medea movie:

"I'm so sick of hearing about damn Spike Lee. Spike can go straight to hell! You can print that. I am sick of him talking about me, I am sick of him saying, 'this is a coon, this is a buffoon.' I am sick of him talking about black people going to see movies. This is what he said: 'you vote by what you see,' as if black people don't know what they want to see.

"Booker T. Washington and W.E.B. DuBois went through the exact same thing; Langston Hughes said that Zora Neale Hurston, the woman who wrote 'Their Eyes Were Watching God,' was a new version of the 'darkie' because she spoke in a southern dialect and a Southern tone," Perry offered. "And I'm sick of it from us; we don't have to worry about anybody else trying to destroy us and take shots because we do it to ourselves."

http://perezhilton.com/2011-04-20-tyler-perry-responds-to-spike-lee

[Freddie Stubbs]

1. Sometimes entertainment is just entertainment

Happy Days and Gilligan's Island weren't conscience raising, but they were popular.

FYI, I don't find Perry's shows/movies very entertaining, but apparently a lot of other people do.

[trumad]

2. I've seen a couple with my kids...

There is indeed some stereotypical humor but I don't think it's over the top. I think Tyler is just trying to make a funny ass movie.

[pipi_k]

28. Just like Eddie Murphy...

A couple of his movies might be toeing the line too, but I think they're pretty funny.

I'm not much for some of the religious references in many of Tyler Perry's movies, but damn..."Madea" sure is a hoot. I love her, and always forget that she's not really who she is.

:7

[Drale]

5. I disagree

Gilligan's Island showed us that even stranded on a desert Island you can meet famous people and have all the comforts of home. :rofl:

[Cirque du So-What]

23. Let's expand upon the example of Gilligan's Island

Who got the biggest laughs on that show? It sure wasn't the professor - serious straight man for all occasions. The Howells? Droll sketches on the greed, self-centeredness & cluelessness of the bourgeoisie, but nothing approaching belly laughs. Ginger's over-the-top coquettishness was somewhat amusing, but hardly conducive to ROFLs. Mary Ann 'played it straight' for the most part; I haven't seen GI in a lot of years, but I don't remember a single funny thing she ever said or did. The Skipper & Gilligan, however, were the source of all the hilarity on that show, recycling every vaudeville skit and ripping off Laurel & Hardy wholesale, with a smidgen of Three Stooges thrown in for good measure. In comedy, silly sells.

[pipi_k]

31. About the Professor...

I always thought he was kind of hot.

:7

[fishwax]

3. Hughes's criticism of Hurston wasn't based on her use of dialect

They had been close friends, but had a falling out over a collaboration (they worked together to write a play, but Hurston submitted it herself without naming him on the copyright). He did call her "a perfect darkie," but iirc (and I'll admit I don't remember all the context) it had to do with her relationship with her white patrons, and not her use of dialect (at least, I don't think, since Hughes himself was heavily invested in dialect).

[murray hill farm]

4. I think he is the major talent of our times!

His characters are all touchingly real and no matter what cultural stereotypes might be attached, their lives and personal struggles are every persons struggles. The first time I saw his character Madea, all I could think was "I want to be Madea" and I still think that...ha!

[EC]

15. Did you forget the

:sarcasm: smiley? I don't know one black family that acts the way they do. Madea is really over the top, again, I don't know any older woman - black or white that acts like portrayed. Of course his characters DO conform to the stereotype that most whites see as typical black people.

[XemaSab]

48. You can't say there aren't a lot of white comedies

where the people conform to the stereotype that most blacks see as typical white people.

Dumb and Dumber, 40 YO Virgin, and so many more where the main guy is physically awkward, culturally oblivious, and has no game with the ladies.

[EC]

51. And they are equally offensive to me.

Both those movies you mentioned I thought were dumb and couldn't even make it 10 minutes into them when my ex-son-in-law rented them. I really tried on 40 Year old, too, since it had good reviews...and I like Steven - but no couldn't do it, it just made me angry and antsy.

[demwing]

83. 40 year old Virgin was one of the funniest movies I've seen

I fully expected non-stop cringe scenes and 90 minutes of embarrassment, but was happily disappointed that I didn't get what I thought I would.

To each their own, but I'm interested in your particular response. Why do you think it made you angry?

[EC]

85. Everyone I know liked it too.

Maybe it was because I waited until it was on TV instead of going to the movie...I was angry because it was so damn predictable...But as I said I saw it on TV and in the time that it took to get on air, I'm guessing I saw all the funny bits in it, copied on other shows or Lifetime pap. So it was stale to me.



On Edit: Just to give reference of my taste (I guess that's what it's called) the funnest movie I ever saw was "Hotel New Hampshire". And others I found funny: "Howard the Duck" and "Raising Arizona". I'm sure there were some more recent, but can't recall now.

[demwing]

89. I loved 'Raising Arizona' and hated 'Howard the Duck'

Have you seen 'Oh Brother Where Art Thou?' - Seems like it might be your style...

[EC]

95. Yep,

"O Brother Where Art Thou" was one I was going to list. It even reminded me of stories from my relatives in West Virginia...

I understand about "Howard the Duck" at first it irritated me at first because the Duck and Doc were just plain perverted, but then I found myself LMAO ...

On edit: I have to explain why I even watched Howard...I had just signed up for HBO and vowed one day to watch every movie all day - even if it sucked.

[SwampG8r]

94. 40 y o virgin has to be watched

at least half way through
it starts as a rude comedy and evolves into a beautiful love story
watch it again and this time watch it

[skypilot]

98. I didn't like 40 Year Old Virgin either.

I made it as far as the hair waxing scene and that was quite a struggle. I was practically gritting my teeth during the earlier night club scene where the black guy was giving Carrell's character pointers on how to attract women, including such nonsense as standing around holding your crotch and only looking at women through your peripheral vision. The scene went on way too long and I hadn't seen black men or anyone else do that crotch-grabbing thing in years. The writers also seemed to think that there is something inherently funny about people with Asian and Middle Eastern accents swearing like sailors.

[LanternWaste]

59. I don't know one white family that acted like the Bunkers...

"Of course his characters DO conform to the stereotype that most whites see as typical black people..."

I don't know one white family that acted like the Bunkers. What's the effin' point?

I imagine most television, from Maude and Rhoda to Married With Children conform to classical archetypes. If used as a either a base-line or a contrast, the archetype is valuable character in literature and film.

Although I realize many people believe that archetypes should never offend, that sacred cows are too dear, and that diaphanous cultural and social mores hold more weight than satire.

[Codeine]

6. Perry is the only mainstream filmmaker out there who makes

M. Night Shamalamadingdong look like a fucking auteur. Just complete goddamned tripe.

[blondeatlast]

10. Well,

yeah.

[geardaddy]

40. +1

[demwing]

84. "M. Night Shamalamadingdong " ? Really?

that wasn't racist at all...

[EOTE]

7. I love the bulk of Spike Lee's movies.

I've never been able to sit through one of Perry's. Frankly, I think Perry's movies are well beyond offensive. I'd never use the term in conversation, but the word Lee uses to describe it, "coonery" sounds extremely apt in this case.

[tishaLA]

8. Spike's Right. And Perry is no Hurston

he's not even Booker T. Christ.

Perry's only real effort at serious moviemaking, For Colored Girls, was an unmitigated disaster and he too often plunges into the kind of foolishness Spike lampooned so well in Bamboozled. I give Perry credit for making his way up the ladder, working through the chitlin circuit, becoming hugely successful, and all that, but even if his goal is to appeal to a carefully proscribed audience, he almost has a responsibility to challenge them and to challenge himself. Instead, he just relies upon stock characters and foolish contrivances.

[XemaSab]

50. Booker T. Christ?

One can only guess what the hosts look like in THAT church.

8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8

[tishaLA]

58. LOL. It's supposed to read...

"Booker T.

Christ!"

But I was in too much of a hurry as I was composing it. And then when I noticed it, I thought...oh, nobody will notice! LOL. Wrong again!

[XemaSab]

68. .

;)

[creeksneakers2]

81. He co-produced Precious

which was a serious movie. Didn't it win an award? I thought Colored Girls had some great lines in it.

[tishaLA]

92. he and Oprah attached themselves to the film after it was made

it made it easier to find distribution, but he had no real role in its production. Nor did Ms Winfrey. Colored Girls may have had some great lines--the play is pretty phenomenal--but nothing great in that film came from Perry's head.

[blondeatlast]

9. Jerry Lewis. Even as a child, I couldn't stand his humor, but

I don't think he did any major harm, either.

I got thru about 8 minutes of some TP flick once.

[RaleighNCDUer]

63. You just don't get Jerry Lewis. The guy is a genius.

Maybe you're just not French enough.

[EC]

11. I agree with Bill Mahr

He should just get the "operation" already. He's not funny, the Mama character is tiresome, and it's not "very funny" as per advertising. And from the ads I see on TBS they are old time stereotypes of black families.

[CatWoman]

18. exactly

[The Backlash Cometh]

22. There are some heavy messages in there.

It's about sticking with the family. Each time one of the characters makes it out of the hood and fails, they come back where they become whole again. And who can forgot Cicely Tyson's speech about finding pride in their roots and living up to the sacrifices made by past generations? Or something to that effect. I paraphrase.

[Kurovski]

61. I remember The Boondocks covered that in an episode.

With the actor wishing to take grandad on as a lover.

[Nevernose]

72. I think Perry's movies are marginally better than Soul Plane

At least in terms of stereotyping and "minstrel"ing. He's not very well liked in the Black arts community either, from what I understand.

My wife, however, saw him on Broadway with his act a few years ago and said is was excellent, so who knows?

[Cirque du So-What]

12. Buffoonery will always have an audience, regardless of race

I've watched both of Tyler Perry's current sitcoms, and I see nothing of what Spike Lee characterizes as 'coonery,' although there's buffoonery aplenty on both shows. I'd be hard-pressed to name a sitcom that didn't rely upon at least one character acting the fool for everyone's enjoyment.

[WCGreen]

14. Married with Childern, Two and a half men...

Buffoons are glorified...

[Cirque du So-What]

25. Larry the Cable Guy

Are uptight white filmmakers going to criticize him for 'peckerwoodery?'

[WCGreen]

27. Country Musics answer to Beavis and Butthead...

[The Backlash Cometh]

33. I'm convinced there are trip wires all over anything that has to do with black entertainment.

I brought up Eddie Murphy's comedy line about the difference between white and black people when they walk into a haunted house and had the thread locked on DU.

So I shouldn't be surprised to see how tingling this issue is with the Perry characters who are there to create foils for some of the more substantive messages.

[The Backlash Cometh]

13. Tyler Perry rulz!

I love Madea. She snares you into those movies and Perry's messages are anything but predictable. He has done more to give talent in the Black community a place to showcase their abilities. What's wrong with that?

Frankly, I didn't think much of Jungle Fever when the Spike Lee character brushed off the white store owner's outrage over the looting by telling him that he has insurance. Yeah, that message has really helped us all in the long run.

[tishaLA]

19. That was Do the Right Thing. And besides, we were not supposed to feel

sympathetic toward Mookie (Spike's character) at that moment specifically or in the film generally. The film was pretty clear that the violence against Sal's Pizzaria, like the violence against Radio Raheem, was unwarranted.

[The Backlash Cometh]

24. Oh, so Spike Lee played a stereotyped role?

You don't say?

[tishaLA]

30. No, I didn't say

And I don't know where you got that from my comment.

[The Backlash Cometh]

36. A black character's indifference to the rioting I would categorize as

stereotypical. That is, if I wanted to apply Spike Lee's own standards to the character.

[tishaLA]

42. Mookie wasn't indifferent to rioting. He threw the fucking garbage can

through the window. And then, after it went up in flames, went back to get paid the next day.

He was a flawed character, like (almost?) all the characters in the film. That doesn't mean he was a stereotype; it means he was more complex than anything Mr Perry has ever written.

[The Backlash Cometh]

44. Ah, so now you're honing in on the differences between the two.

They're different genres. One is drama, the other comedy. It's a bit snooty for Spike Lee to expect a comedy to measure up to the standards of a drama.

[tishaLA]

45. Comedies can have complex characterizations

but keep moving those goalposts.

And have fun.

[The Backlash Cometh]

47. Comedies can have complex characterizations?

You mean, with your permission? Would Steve Martin have become such a success if you were his agent?

[JVS]

52. Mookie saw a deteriorating situation in which Sal and his sons were likely to get lynched...

and directed the hostility of the crowd toward Sal's property rather than Sal's and his sons' lives.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FebGrU0i3V8&feature=related

[The Backlash Cometh]

57. I saw about a minute of that clip.

Refreshed my memory a bit. But seeing it decades apart, here's my take on it. The movie needed to be made. It is definitely a critically acclaimed piece, but the reality of that movie is that it probably advanced white flight. What I know of people who live in white islands, they scare easily when it comes to racial issues. They wouldn't have bothered to sit there and analyze anything that the angry black crowd had to say. They would never have taken the time to see their point of view.

Frankly, Tyler Perry has a better chance to pull them in with his less threatening approach. He just has to be clever about the message he wants to send.

[Johonny]

26. I agree Do the Right Thing is a great movie

because no major character throughout the movie consistently does the right thing. And when they are in the right or in the wrong is very open to debate depending on your back ground. Spike does not let the audience off the hook presenting easy GOOD and BAD characters. It is not a simple morality play. If it was it probably would be long forgotten.

[GoCubsGo]

29. Yup.

And, just why must all films be "serious"? Why must all films have some sort of "message"? What's wrong with occasional mindless escapism? I like a good, serious film, too, but Spike Lee and his ilk take themselves way too seriously. Like Jimmy Buffet once said, "If we couldn't laugh, we would all go insane."

[themadstork]

76. Who objected to mindless escapism per se?

You seem to be implying that mindless escapism should not be subject to criticism, because that is too "serious." Because god forbid we think about our mindless escapism for even a second. . .

[GoCubsGo]

80. That is not what I am implying.

And, I never claimed that anyone objected to escapism. I am saying that mindless escapism is being criticized for not being "serious". I'm sick of the snobs like Spike Lee, who think that films that aren't serious, or have no underlying message, are inherently bad and not worth watching.

[themadstork]

82. He's not accusing Perry of a lack of seriousness. He's claiming that his work is socially backwards.

Unless I'm misreading one of Lee's cultural references.

Also, you asked what was wrong with mindless escapism. Why would you ask that unless you felt that someone attacked mindless escapism in itself?

Also I think an evaluation of quality can be made independent of an evaluation of "seriousness," whatever that means. If I claim Perry's work is crap it is not because it's not "serious." It's because it's poorly made. There's plenty of great frivolous art.

[Gin]

34. Me 2.............I like Medea and Tyler Perry.....he does good things

off screen also...he shares his wealth.

[The Backlash Cometh]

41. I think he's up their with Bill Cosby in his better, less critical days.

[medeak]

64. It's "madea"

speaking for Medea Benjamin and myself..the only "medeas" I know...hate that my greek tragedy name is confused with his movies

[CatWoman]

16. I agree with Spike

[JVS]

17. The only thing I know about Tyler Perry's work is that he does a lot of it rapidly.

[Johonny]

20. I like Spike Lee because he asks interesting questions

not that I think he knows the correct answer or if there is a correct answer.

About the best defense of Perry I can think of is that there simply aren't that many intelligent comedies made period these days. Are his movies any bigger a pile crap than say scary movie series? Does Perry play black stereotypes to lampoon his own black American culture or to placate to white Americans? IDK. I don't think there are easy answers to that question. Both could be true. Spike Lee's best movies involve interesting questions (usually about race) in which no easy answer can be found. Many people see Spike Lee at his best a great film maker. Few people see Tyler Perry as a great film maker. So perhaps Spike is wasting a lot of time on nothing :)

[county worker]

21. Never heard about it and I don't care about it.

[tammywammy]

32. I did really like one Tyler Perry movie

I can't remember the name, but I've seen it on tv. It has Janet Jackson and is about three (4?) couples that go away together for the weekend.

[JonLP24]

38. Sounds like

Why did I get married too?

She was also in 'Why did I get married" and "For colored girls" when it comes to Tyler Perry films.

[tammywammy]

65. Yes, it was the married one.

Really good I thought, with how it delved into the different relationships.

[The Backlash Cometh]

53. Why did I get married?

Don't think there was anybody that would fit the standard of a stereotype in that movie. Unless it was the idiot husband who traumatized his wife because she was overweight. That's not a race thing.

[tammywammy]

66. That's the one

I always feel like cheering for the overweight woman when she finally finds happiness.

[Scout]

35. can't he find an actual fat black woman to play his major character, instead

of himself?

what's up with that shit?

[Fire1]

55. Cause nobody can play Madea like he can. That's why.

Did anybody complain when Flip Wilson or Milton Berle were playing the part of women?? NO! So, why now all of a sudden there's something "wrong" with Tyler Perry playing Madea! Hatin! Just plain hatin.

[Scout]

70. actually, yes i did.

i find Milton Berle disgusting, and i didn't care all that much for Flip Wilson either.

so don't be trying to accuse me of being a racist and a hater.

"nobody" can play Medea like he can, ha, not much talent involved in clowning in a fat suit i'm pretty sure several actors besides Tyler Perry could do it. god forbid he actually gives a black woman the job.

[Fire1]

97. I think a lot of talent is required to act in any genre but can't

think of any Black woman who could play that part as well as he does. As for "giving a black woman the job," Perry is responsible for "giving" many a black person a job, male and female, in stage productions, t.v. and film. I don't care if you're a racist or not but you certainly are a hater.

[LanternWaste]

60. I think it's called the craft of acting.

"what's up with that shit?"

I think it's called the craft of acting. Unless of course you believe Henry V should never be played by a black male or Hispanic female, relegated only to casting young, white males for the part... :shrug:

[Scout]

69. yeah, well, funny about that craft of acting ... except for Cate Blanchett

playing Bob Dylan, you don't seem to find women actors ever playing male characters.

yeah, uh huh, you see sooooo many Hispanic females playing Henry V.

must be only male actors can cross dress and perform their craft....

[Howler]

37. I LOVE LOVE LOVE.....

Tyler Perry's character Medea.
I have all the movies and plays which are even funnier then the flicks.
Now he does do alot of evangelizing in his material......but to me its absolutely worth it too see Medea.

[fatbuckel]

39. Well there`s the pot calling....never mind.

[Throd]

43. Spike Lee makes my ass tired.

[anneboleyn]

73. me too. Perry is a very successful African-American filmmaker, even if his films

are inconsequential and silly comedy. Need they be overtly political? Isn't there space for a filmmaker like Perry? His films obviously have a considerable, and devoted, audience. I have seen only a few of them but I liked The Family that Preys, even though it had its problems (stereotpyes rather than characters, more).

[ceile]

46. Diary of a Mad Black Woman is classic.

When I saw that movie it stuck with me for months.

[Fire1]

49. Spike Lee is just a "hater" and needs to quit and get a hit! n/t

[JustAnotherGen]

54. I think Spke Lee

Is full of shit. Seriously. On my father's side I have an EXTREMELY large southern African American family with some Irish and Cherokee mixed in . . .

I'm telling you . . my family has a Madea (Aunt Dorothy). Though myyyyy Madea doesn't take 'glaucoma medicine' and has never been arrested and is a religious woman -

She picks at people who pray to god that are hypocrites.

She'll tell any of her nieces to make a man special 'sweet potato pie' or hit him with a frying pan if he hits you . . . because it's a 'fair fight' that way.

She'll say "All children need is love," Then scream at her great niece or nephew to "Put that god damned hand held game away when you are sitting at my table."


Look - we aren't all the Huxtables. We aren't all Madeas family.

But - We also aren't all Girl Six. Not all of us grew up in Brookly with 'stereotyped' Italian neighbors that were bigots.

You know - not all black folks are a 'perfectly black' as Spike Lee. He needs to check himself.

[chalky]

71. I can't tell you how many times I've heard someone tell me

"Oh, Madea is JUST like my...(insert relative's name here)!" And yes, I too have a Madea in my family.

I'm not a big fan of Tyler Perry. IMO, his movies are trite, the conflicts seem forced and his villains are over-the-top and two dimensional. I have been dragged to a couple of his plays, which were entertaining due to audience participation. But the movies...eh.

But Spike needs to get a grip. Tyler Perry is the Thomas Kinkade of African-American cinema and just because he doesn't aspire to be Picasso doesn't make him Satan.

That being said...where's Spike's outrage over Martin Lawrence's Big Momma movies?

[anneboleyn]

75. great post. I know many folks who like the Perry films, including myself.

[KT2000]

56. Artists are artists

Their work should not be held up as political beacons or role models. They have something to say and they say it - like it or don't like it.

My take is that I find it irritating when some artists attack and accuse other artists for not adhering to their form of correctness. I think Spike Lee is more interested in making himself the arbiter of what is acceptable, to enhance his own stature, or ego.
Alice Walker, the cast of The Color Purple and Whoopie Goldberg have had to endure such criticism (not necessarily from Lee)and they are put in a situation of having to defend themselves personally. Not good and not fair.

There are differences between Lee and Perry's movies. Lee communicates a political message. Perry tells a good story.

[Fire1]

67. True albeit none of his movies go over very well. n/t

[themadstork]

74. Artists have something to say. . .

but we can't criticize it? Come on. There are instances where politically oriented criticism glosses over the complexity of the artwork in question, sure. But Perry plays to the LCD and is as subject to criticism as all other "artists" who produce LCD schlock.

And the implied comparison between Perry and Hurston is the funniest thing I've heard all day.

[KT2000]

88. huh? This is about an artist,

Spike Lee criticizing Tyler Perry for not making movies that Lee finds correct. He has been after Perry about this for years and it has gone beyond mere criticism.

Of course people are going to criticize art. I find that Spike Lee does not have much of a sense of humor, especially in his movies.

I don't feel that Perry's movies are the LCD - watch more carefully.

[thelordofhell]

62. And white people have Jeff Foxworthy

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

77. I've watched completely moronic movies that are also very funny. Perry's just have

one of these qualities.

[unkachuck]

78. love Spike, hate tyler....Spike's right....backwards is not forwards....n/t

[Lisa0825]

79. I got tired of Tyler Perry years ago. His movies are very preachy and formulaic. nt

[aikoaiko]

86. these types of feuds generate good PR buzz.

rawk on.

[madinmaryland]

87. I saw Spike Lee trying to diss the Celtics last night in Boston Garden. The guy has so jumped the..

shark.

Just pathetic.

[Keith Bee]

90. I'll just say this:

I am not a fan of Meet The Browns or House of Payne.

[TransitJohn]

91. I'm not really qualified to judge how it affects the African-American community, but

I can say that I've seen one Tyler Perry movie, 'Daddy's Little Girls,' and it has my vote for the absolute worst movie ever made.

[SwampG8r]

93. i never thought i would end up

defending spike lees point but he has stated it clearly in the past and quite consistantly
his movie "bamboozled" is entirely about this and its his best work since "shes gotta have it"
its only his opinion at the end of the day

[zennie62]

96. I Sort Of Agree WIth Spike

Spike Lee's correct, as usual, but I think he should partner with Perry, rather than publicly talk about him. Perry's response was classless. I'm surprised. Well, not entirely. It's common for bros to put each other down, rather than team up. Not desirable, but common.