County College of Morris votes to charge illegal immigrants out-of-state tuition

[The Northerner]

MORRISTOWN — County College of Morris trustees changed a 2-month-old policy last night and voted to charge out-of-state tuition to illegal immigrant students.

The 9-2 vote, which changed a policy approved by a 7-1 vote in February, came after a public hearing that lasted almost three hours

The decision means tuition for illegal immigrants would jump from $115 a credit to $326 a credit — or from $3,450 a year to $9,780, plus fees, for full-time students.

“I’m not happy with it, but I am only one voice and there are 11 voices,” said board chairwoman Elaine Johnson, one of two members who voted against the tuition change.

“Hopefully, it will not affect the college as far as image,” she said.

Read more: http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/04/board_recommends_county_colleg.html

[xoom]

1. they should pay more..

[Gormy Cuss]

2. even if they live in Morris county?

[xoom]

3. yes.

That's what financial Sid is for, to help students pay. But if they are illegal and not eligible for financial aid then I'm sorry, you should pay more.

[Gormy Cuss]

9. Uh, it's tuition, not financial aid.

[KansDem]

4. From the article

Most New Jersey public colleges and universities admit illegal immigrants, but charge them out-of-county or out-of-state tuition if they can’t prove they live in the state legally. That means undocumented students, who are not eligible for financial aid, must usually pay double or more than their classmates.

When I moved to Kansas to attend grad school, I had to pay out-of-state tuition for a year, until I was considered a "Kansas resident."

[xoom]

5. dont you need to be a citizen to be considered a resident?

[Zywiec]

6. Plenty of US residents are not citizens and still here legally. n/t

[xoom]

7. the people the article is talking about are illegals though, right?

[white_wolf]

8. I hate that term so much.

Kucinich is right, no one is illegal. They are undocumented, but no human being is illegal.

[Rage for Order]

10. They aren't undocumented

It's just that all of their non-forged documents show them to be citizens of another country. Try another euphemism.

:eyes:

[badtoworse]

14. You do agree, however, that they are breaking the law by staying here; don't you?

[white_wolf]

37. You know who which is breaking the law?

Pot smokers, black people who used to try and sit on the front seat of the bus broke the law. Just because something is the law does not make it right.

[badtoworse]

38. Laws that are not right usually get changed. That is the right way to deal with that.

If a law is on the books, you should either enforce it or change it. Looking the other way doesn't work for me.

[proud2BlibKansan]

19. +1

[aikoaiko]

40. They very well may have documetation from their home country.

No one is calling them an illegal human being. But it is fair to say that they immigrated illegally and are illegal immigrants.

[fishwax]

49. not necessarily n/t

[Gormy Cuss]

11. Yes, but this is making a distinction among people who have lived in NJ for more than a year.

Often these are people who were brought here as young children. They have no legal status because of the action of their guardians yet they are long term residents of the state.

[badtoworse]

12. What difference should that make?

You are still talking about someone who has no legal right to a subsidy from NJ or Morris County taxpayers.

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. Why not?

They pay taxes. Taxes support the schools. Why do they not have the right to a subsidy their tax dollars pay for?

[badtoworse]

23. Because they are not legal residents - period

[EFerrari]

31. They're legal enough to contribute to the local economy

more than they take out.

This is a stupid policy that tries to fix a problem on the backs of working people who did not create the problem.

And the mean spiritedness on this thread is disgusting.

[badtoworse]

33. I don't buy the argument they contribute more than they take

There is another thread that points out they pay about $11 Billion in taxes nationally. There are anywheres from 10 - 20 Million illegals in the country and doing the math, that works out to $550 - $1,100 in taxes paid. Big deal! One trip to the ER costs more than that.

Sorry if you think it's mean spirited, but we don't have enough resources to provide adequate social services for our own citizens. They should be either contributing to or draining the economy of the country where they are legal.

[EFerrari]

35. Do a search and stop listening to right wing wackjobs.

As the debate over illegal immigration continues to rage, some pundits and policymakers are claiming that unauthorized immigrants do not pay taxes and rely heavily on government benefits. Neither of these claims is borne out by the facts. Undocumented men have work force participation rates that are higher than other workers, and all undocumented immigrants are ineligible for most government services, but pay taxes as workers, consumers, and residents.

Like The Rest of Us, Undocumented Immigrants Pay Taxes

Undocumented immigrants contribute to the U.S. economy not only through the labor they provide, but through the taxes they pay. Between one-half and three-quarters of undocumented immigrants pay federal and state income taxes, Social Security taxes, and Medicare taxes. And all undocumented immigrants pay sales taxes (when they buy anything at a store, for instance) and property taxes (even if they rent housing).

According to the 2005 Economic Report of the President, undocumented immigrants working “‘on the books’…contribute to the tax rolls but are ineligible for almost all Federal public assistance programs and most major Federal-state programs.” The report also notes that immigrants in general “contribute money to public coffers by paying sales and property taxes (the latter are implicit in apartment rents).”

The Undocumented and Social Security: Contributing Yes, Collecting No

The Social Security Administration (SSA) has concluded that undocumented immigrants “account for a major portion” of the billions of dollars paid into the Social Security system under names or social security numbers that don’t match SSA records; payments from which immigrants cannot benefit while undocumented. As of October 2005, the reported earnings on which these payments are based—which are tracked through the SSA’s Earnings Suspense File (ESF)—totaled $520 billion.

http://www.immigrationpolicy.org/just-facts/undocumented-immigrants-taxpayers

[badtoworse]

42. I don't think you understand my position

It doesn't matter to me whether they are a net plus or a net drain on the economy. They broke the law by coming and staying here, they are, in many cases, commiting fraud to work and get get benefits, and they are taking jobs that, in many cases, could be done by a legal resident. Try doing that in virtually any other country in the world and see what happens to you.

If I understand you post, SSA records suggest that earnings by illegal immigrants totalled $520 Billion in 2005. I would rather see those earnings going to people who are here legally. I don't want to hear about picking lettuce or doing other things for less than minimum wage - that is wrong too.

[Gormy Cuss]

24. I'm talking about youth who are residents of NJ, whose parents/guardians pay taxes in NJ

IOW, children of TAXPAYERS.


eta: there are plenty of legal residents of NJ who pay little if any property or income tax to NJ. Should their children be excluded from the public colleges on that basis?

[badtoworse]

27. They're not being excluded; they just have to pay a higher tuition rate.

If they're not legal residents, I don't see how they or their parents could own property (and pay property taxes) or have any kind of taxpayer ID Number (and pay income taxes). Leaving aside the fact that they ARE illegal, they are, at best, on a par with a legal, out of state resident from a taxes paid in NJ standpoint. The higher tuition rate is more than fair on that basis.

I'm OK with NJ residents that pay little or no property and income taxes getting the in-state tuition rate. For one thing, the rate is not predicated on how much you pay in taxes (which I doubt would pass muster in the courts). Besides that, the state would benefit greatly if people in that situation or their children went to college - it would likely break the cycle of poverty.

[Gormy Cuss]

28. Parents pay sales taxes and many work under the wrong SSN, paying income and payroll taxes

without a prayer of ever getting them back. Some use TINs in lieu of SSNs and actually file returns and pay property taxes each year. As you recognize however, the amount of taxes paid by the parents isn't the issue

Back to the children who were raised in NJ and are culturally as American as any other resident. If they're interested in attending college they've demonstrated some academic competence. Their illegal immigration status is not their doing yet the punishment is aimed squarely at them rather than those who made the choice to bring them here.

Charging out-of-state rates is punitive enough that those from working class families just will not be able to afford college. So much for breaking the cycle of poverty. You may find it acceptable to treat innocents that way. I find it morally reprehensible.

[badtoworse]

34. We don't have resources to provide adequate social services to our own citizens

Money that is spent on providing services (like low cost tuition) to people who have no legal right to them is money that could be spent on our own poor and elderly. You are OK with illegals using fraud to accomplish that; I think that is morally reprehensible. I'm actually amazed you're defending it.

[Gormy Cuss]

41. Again the "illegals" in question were brought here with no say in the matter.

I am okay with giving them the same break as children who were born here.

Since taxes fund social services, you may find it illuminating to read just how much in taxes are paid by illegal immigrants.
Here's one link to get you started:
http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2008-04-10-immigrantstaxes_N.htm

[badtoworse]

43. See Post No. 42

[Gormy Cuss]

44. Non sequitur n/t

[badtoworse]

45. If you're here illegally, you should fix that, even if it is difficult under current law.

Whether you came here by yourself or your parents brought you, being an illegal has a lot of downsides to it, but that's not the fault of the US. It is a shame for kids whose parents brought them here and hopefully, the law might change to make it easier for them to become citizens. In any case, I expect people who come here to respect our laws - sorry if I'm a coldhearted scumbag for wanting that.

You're rationalizing the fact that the illegals are breaking our laws, but I'm not willing to do that. I don't think we are going to find common ground on this, but it was nice discussing it.

[Gormy Cuss]

47. You're rationalizing marginalization of children.

I don't at all support illegal immigration and I fault our government for creating the situation we have today. St. Reagan assured us that he had the fix in 1986, back when illegal immigrants as a percent of population was much lower than it is now. We shouldn't have millions of long term illegal immigrants, but we do. Many of them have lived here for decades because as hard as it is to have illegal status it still beats living in whatever economic or political dung heap they left behind. Otherwise, most of them would be gone.

Stingy moves like charging out-of-state tuition aren't going to send them back to the country of origin, but it makes some people feel good about punishing scofflaws and it helps support the underground economy by preventing these young people from training for professional jobs.

[badtoworse]

48. You've been on DU for six years and I've been here for six months

In my short time here, I've seen scores of posts by people who are desperate for any kind of a job or any kind of public assistance. Many of them would take literally anything to feed their kids or perhaps care for an elderly parent. Do you ever read what the 99'ers post? We have college graduates looking at a mountain of debt with poor prospects for any kind of job, let alone a decent paying one. I'm sure you've seen the same posts. Do you think they should have to compete with illegals for jobs or public assistance? I sure don't. You're willing to train illegal kids for good paying jobs when our young, college educated citizens can't find jobs? I'm not. We probably have millions of people who had good jobs, but were laid off and are now facing the loss of their homes. Are you OK with an illegal taking a job they might do? I'm not. As a practical matter, we don't have the jobs or the resources to properly care for our own citizens - the unemployed, the poor, the kids who go to school hungry and the elderly. Who should have the first call on the resources and jobs that we do have? It's your call - who are you going to help?

I've travelled the undeveloped world pretty extensively and I've personally seen the dung heaps you're talking about in South America and the Middle East. I lived in Iraq in the late 70's and early 80's when Sadaam Hussein was in power and I know what a real police state is like. It makes me appreciate what a wonderful country we do have and it makes me want to protect it from becoming just like one of those dung heaps. Our ability to help people is not unlimited and if we don't establish and enforce priorities on who get the jobs and who gets the assistance, that is exactly what will happen (as I ses it, it's been ongoing for quite some time). I feel sorry for the illegals because living in their own countries is so bad they're willing to live as an illegal here and condemn their own kids to the same life. Unfortunately, we can't change that and I'm not willing to look the other way and let our own citizens get hurt in the process. The old adage "Charity begins at home" clearly applies here.

[proud2BlibKansan]

20. Because you weren't a tax payer in Kansas

Not that hard to understand :shrug:

[RB TexLa]

13. Can they not pay their property taxes then?

[yawnmaster]

15. Do foreign nations who own property in the various states pay property taxes? eom

[RB TexLa]

17. yes, if they don't want someone to buy the property taxes at auction and take their property from

them

[JPZenger]

16. that is the policy in many states

[RebelOne]

21. Yep. They are doing here in Georgia. n/t

[Nedsdag]

22. I applied for a position at CCM for an adjunct job and they were very snobbish.

No surprise that they would do such a thing.

[BrightKnight]

25. Foreign Nationals have always been charged out of State tuition

as far as I know. I had to pay out of State tuition when went to an out of State school. I don't understand your concern. This is nothing new.

[truedelphi]

26. You summed up what I was going to say. n/t

[WatsonT]

30. There have been many movements in certain states to push for instate tuition for illegals

particularly those states with many illegal aliens.

It is a big deal as it will necessarily raise rates for other students at a time when many states are cutting budgets for higher education.

[WatsonT]

29. They should pay out of state

American citizens should be put first for benefits from American programs.

[tuckessee]

32. Good idea. I agree 100%. nt

[upi402]

36. me too n/t

[aikoaiko]

39. Even the legitimate international students at my university pay out of state tuition.

Sometimes they get waivers for sports and assistantships but those are open to US out-of-state residents, too.

[formernaderite]

46. If they can prove residency they should be let in...however

it can't be an open policy. Legal residents usually don't have the ability to say hop from one community college to another, unless they can show they are a resident of that county etc. So you have kids who would like to go to say a better community college, unable to because of geographic taxation...unless they can pay the higher rate.

Whatever is done, has to be fair to all residents...you can't make illegal or undocumented residents a special class.