First thing I did this morning was click on the dairy calf shocking video.

[Quantess]

It was horrible to see the way the tiny bull calves were beaten to death with pick axes and hammers. But their advice....go vegan.

Really, so we can't regulate the meat/dairy industry AT ALL, our only choice is to go vegan?

[Anakin Skywalker]

1. Regulation is HATED in this scummy country!

Maximum profit is the only thing that matters to the majority of dirtbag people, not compassion or a more enlightened way to do something.

[Quantess]

2. Exploitation of life.

Exploitation for maximum profit, in the name of greed. This is just morally disgusting.

Why is this allowed? How is it acceptable that, because of capitalistic laissez-faire policies, we as humans have to race to the bottom? Anything for a dollar.

How much does a bullet cost? A few pennies. They can't afford a fucking bullet to the head?

(edit spelling)

[Hannah Bell]

3. something wrong here. a bullet would cost less than the labor time needed to beat a calf to death

with a pick ax.

[Quantess]

5. Yes. Unless the workers themselves get crap wages.

Which is probably true as well. Look at the atrocities committed to animals in China. We are all aware that Chinese laborers get paid with peanuts, thrown at them.

[Hannah Bell]

8. even at minimum wage, bullets are cheaper.

Most meat in the US is produced by corporations. I don't believe that corporations hire people to beat cows to death. The volume of meat produced makes that a very inefficient proposition.

If that's what the video you saw claims, I think it's probably false.

[Quantess]

9. sigh...I actually sat through the video.

Are you just too wimpy to watch it yourself? It's on the DU home page.

Honestly, it is NOT the worst thing I have ever seen on video. Go ahead and watch it.

[Hannah Bell]

11. i don't want to watch someone beat a cow to death. and i don't believe

that beating cows to death is the regular practice at corporate meat farms, as they have other killing systems in place.

If you want to believe it, feel free.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TheMadMonk]

19. Theory is to stun the animal rendering it insensate, but with a still...

...functional heart to bleed the carcass I believe.

A similar theory applies to bolt guns which shoots a T shaped projectile into the skull, theoretically just far enough to penetrate, concussing/shredding the more developed parts of the brain at the front, but leaving the brainstem intact and functional. Unfortunately, the length of the "bolt" may not always be enough to penetrate, either because of a thick skull or poor aim.

Of the two, the more brutal seeming is in fact the surer method for achieving the desired end. IN SKILLED HANDS. In unskilled, lazy or WANTON hands you get this video.

[petronius]

33. Perhaps not - in most cases, the time spent aiming and shooting might be as long

as the beating, and then there's the cost of the gun, time spent cleaning and loading the gun, time to train the employees that 'gun is not a toy', hearing protection (I hope), and maybe higher insurance. (Not that any of that obviates your point of course - some people wake up in the mood to watch a gory video, and I wake up in the mood to be pedantic and annoying. :))

In general I think you're right - violent pick-axe beating are unlikely to be SOP at major meat producing facilities...

[Anakin Skywalker]

6. In this sick world of ours, people save their moral outrage for reproductive waste materials

like stem-cell but never, ever for already LIVING, BREATHING life forms!

"They can't afford a fucking bullet to the head?" You know, my thought's the same as yours. But hey, animals are just property according to conventional laws and views, yours to destroy however you like.

Don't you jerk off and waste God's genetic material though! Cause that's a major sin!

[flvegan]

4. Seriously, what's wrong with going vegan?

I look forward to the many responses. *snicker*

[Quantess]

7. I'll be the first. Why are we asked to choose between inhumane animal abuse, and being vegan?

How about responsible, humane, animal husbandry?

Domesticated cows would go extinct if it were not for human...um...exploitation But, I do believe there is a way to be respectful to the animal's life, while using their flesh for meat or milk.

[yewberry]

10. Because

the root cause of the abuse is the commodification and exploitation of another living being.

The abuse that you're talking about is the awful end result of those processes when taken in combination with our system of tending only to the bottom line. Massive, systemic changes would have to take place in order to change that, and people generally don't care enough to agitate for those changes. In the meantime, veganism is one way to both reduce the demand for the death and abuse of other creatures and to refuse to support the various industries that profit from them.

I don't believe it it is possible, regardless of the most responsible or humane practices, to avoid the simple reality that killing or debasing animals is not compatible with the idea of respecting their lives, even more so when it is done for pleasure and not true need.

[Quantess]

13. All living beings die, so death itself isn't really a factor.

Humans have made many changes to the world, and always to our own favor. We have domesticated animals, used them to our benefit, and we have manipulated farm animals' genetic traits to be more convenient to our uses of them. This is fact. It is too late to release them into the wild, at this point.

My question is: We humans have created these farm animals to fit our needs. Do we not owe it to them to be thankful for what they give us? At the very least.

[yewberry]

16. I can't understand that argument.

Would you argue that death isn't a factor if if it were your life, or your child's, that were taken? Of course death is a factor, if a life is taken, especially for the pleasure of another. The fact that we as humans breed animals for the purpose of using and killing them doesn't make us less culpable; it makes us more so when we choose to perpetuate that system.

No one is suggesting that animals be released into the wild. That is a silly idea. Reducing the demand for more animals bred to die for a McNugget is not a silly idea. Small-scale, maybe, but at least it's something.

Your question is, do we not owe them gratitude for what they give us? My answer is that we should be aware of what we take from them, their lives, and we should, whenever possible, not do that.

[Quantess]

18. I like your ideas. For example, my dog is such a wonderful companion

because he is the result of hundreds, maybe thousands, of years of human intervention. We humans created these loyal, loving, sweet, companion dogs. Actually, my dog was bred to herd flocks of sheep in Australia. Do I have a herd of sheep? Noo... But we do go running a lot together. So he does get his exercise.

[Quantess]

37. of course. That is the correct philosophical answer, and I do not disagree.

Factory farming is all about making money. Please get that into our thick skulls.

All your philosophy is like that piece of plastic ripped of the top of the milk jug. Kinda useful, but worthless.

[yewberry]

50. Of course. You do not disagree

but my viewpoint is worthless.

My 'philosophy' is what I have personally come to as a way to inform my choices. My choices might seem worthless to you, but that is hardly something that is of concern to me. I've chosen to not contribute, insofar as I can, to the exploitation, commodification, and destruction of lives that are not mine. That is not worthless to me, and I don't think it's worthless to the thousands of animals whose lives I have not demanded as tribute to my appetites over the past 24 years.

You live your own life and make your own choices. YMMV.

[Quantess]

40. So, because we are human, we are somehow more entitled?

Yes, I do understand that we as humans take, and take some more. We as humans exploit the earth and we exploit other life forms.

[TheMadMonk]

12. The problem is not the implement, but the skill with which it is applied.

There is a certain reasoning behind using a blugeoning instrument or bolt gun for killing animals in an abitoir. The theory is that it leaves the animal insensate, whilst preserving the limbic system long enough for the heart to aid the bleeding of the carcass.

When reality matches theory it works quite well. A skilled kill technician is no source of suffering. HOWEVER, the structure of what we choose to call an "enlightened" modern society almost absolutely guarantees that he will become a sink for it. AND encourages his place to be taken by adolescent dickheads who think it funny to pulp an animal's head to see blood and brains spraying the walls or to cruely see it kicking in agony from a deliberate misshit.


Personally I believe everyone should participate at least once in the whole process of feeding themselves meat. Kill a small animal, (even screw it up and have to finish with your hands) properly eviscerate it, skin it and finally cook AND consume it.

[Quantess]

14. I killed a rooster once.

It was awful, and I cried afterward. I did not eat him.

But, what are you saying? That there actually might be a rhyme and/or reason to bludgeoning a baby calf to death? Instead of just shooting it in the head?

[TheMadMonk]

20. Yes/no. There was sound health based reasoning behind not allowing blood...

...to remain in a carcass any longer than absolutely necessary, although modern refrigeration makes these reasons far less pressing today.

Done correctly the baby calf (tautology) is NOT blugeoned to death. It is rendered comatose and bled to death.

Shooting has its own dangers and failures.

Personally I would simply imobilise larger animals and cut their jugular veins. Bleeding out it a not unpleasant way to die. And (as I have done) dislocate the skulls of smaller (<5 kg) animals manually.

[Quantess]

21. That's cool. Obviously you did not watch the video.

It was about dairy calves who had the misfortune to be born male.

[LWolf]

34. I didn't see the video,

and I don't want to.

Until all 7 billion people on the planet become vegetarians, I'm for the humane treatment, and killing, of meat animals.

The only real way I know of to do that is small scale. Since I live rurally, I can get meat raised within a few miles of my home, on grass; animals that never see a feedlot, animals that are butchered by people I can talk to, by processes I can investigate.

Unfortunately, there's not enough room on the planet for 7 billion people to live rurally and to live closer, both literally and figuratively, to their food sources.

Personally, I'd like to reduce the human population to about 1/10th of the current number, and make factory farming and meat production unnecessary and obsolete. But that's me.

Edited to add: This is my view between home and work every day; I can buy beef live weight shipped straight from these pastures to a small local abattoir, or have them come right out to the ranch to process, the goal being to cause the animal the least amount of stress.

[BillyJack]

51. Personally, I'd like to reduce the human population to about 1/10th of the current number

I'm sorry to inform you LWolf, but YOU are one of the ones who've
"got to go".

We're reducing the population by 90%.

Sorry. :-)

[LWolf]

52. lol

It's hard to reconcile the needs of the planet with my anti-authoritarian bent. They are always in conflict.

I'd rather people just choose to stop reproducing so rampantly, and allow populations to shrink naturally, over time.

Unfortunately, that takes consciousness, and a conscious choice.

I CAN say that, while my maternal grandmother was one of 11, her line, through 4 generations (my mother, myself, to my grandson,) has produced just a single consumer of resources: my grandson. In 4 generations, we haven't multiplied.

[fasttense]

22. You can treat farm animals humanly and still use them for meat.

It doesn't have to be a tortuous, inhumane, brutal existence with a horrible death at the end of their short lives.

The reason a pickax is used is because the factory farm hires the most inexperienced, cheap labor they can find. They ramp up the expected production with no let up on the living animal. To avoid the expense of even more labor, the farm implements overcrowded unsanitary conditions. Then the factory farm gives the employee the most difficult jobs without any training because training requires time. And using anything more than a pickax requires skill and training.

Male calves born on a diary farm have to be either sold or killed for their meat. They provide nothing of value to the farm but eat up resources and time. A real farm is a unit that runs on careful management and a delicate balance of resources. If you spend too much money on feeding something you will get nothing out of, it means there may not be enough at the end of the year to feed everyone. Originally farmers merely slaughtered the young calves, as they would slaughter any animal. The animal remained in the field with it's mother until it was weened then it was slaughtered. That is what use to be our veal.

Now a days, people are so use to mushy, bland meat that the calf has to be locked away with only milk, and no mobility, to give the veal that white mushy texture. The stalls are reeking and filthy because a factory farm does not have time for proper cleanliness that is not associated with the milk.

You can treat your animals well and still raise and slaughter them humanly. People have been doing it for thousands of years. Abuse of farm animals use to be considered unnecessary and counter productive. Most people understood that you could get better quality and more production if you treated your animals well. Now a days abuse is how the great quantities and low prices are maintained.

Abuse has become so ingrained into the system of factory farming that it frequently is counterproductive.

For example, a true story.

A factory egg producer in Virgina wanted to be able to say his eggs were laid by well treated hens. He kept his hens in small cages with barely room to move. So, in order to get this "humane" certification he had to increase the sizes of the cages by 3 inches. He found that the hens started laying more eggs. So, he increased the size of their cages by another 3 inches, again their egg production increased with no noticeable increase in feed and water consumption.

But he refused to even try and increase their cage size anymore because he would have to reduce the number of chickens he had. But to my way of thinking if he had fewer hens who were laying the same amount of eggs, it would mean less feed, water, and cleaning. Just imagine the production he could have gotten from them if he let them roam free.

[eridani]

23. Or go for locally sourced pasture finished meat n/t

[FLPanhandle]

24. What do you expect from a "conversion" video?

Of course that's the only option they'll mention.

They have one goal, getting you to conform to their morality. They aren't going to do that if they provide sensible alternatives.

They are no better than anti-abortionists and both groups use the same "shock video" tactics.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mojorabbit]

26. I can't watch that kind of thing

as it never leaves my head and invades my dreams. I still have some horrible photos I saw decades ago that I can't put to the background. I spend my days patching up animals as a wildlife rehabber.
I hate logging on here and seeing that poor cow every day. It really depresses me.
There is no reason that we cannot humanely and respectfully care for these animals that give us nourishment.

[felix_numinous]

27. Cruelty to animals

is a sign of mental instability in an individual--yet we see this psychotic violent behavior in corporations--and are not heeding these warning signs.

The corporatocracy is becoming incrementally more cruel and are already capable of ecocide and violent acts against 'acceptable' targets--and if we do not stop the trend, we or our descendants will suffer the consequences. The trajectory is already happening.

[bluestate10]

28. Impressively big words. Is there a solution among them? Or is it a hot-air exercise? nt

[Quantess]

36. I had to look up "hot air exercise" on google.

Rush Limbaugh was the first entry.

[bullwinkle428]

29. State of Iowa's solution - criminalize videography of these kinds of practices.

[TorchTheWitch]

30. there are ads on the internet?

I see no ads. Maybe it has something to do with that free adblocker thingie on my computer.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

31. what kind of person takes a job like that? And, don't you think

there ARE people willing to do so? Thank Goodness they're not in the minority, but to anyone who doesn't believe it's possible, I ask, have you never known anyone angry and heartless? Rageful? Vengeful? Blind to any life but their own?


there ARE plenty of people out there perfectly capable of doing this and even getting a thrill from it too.

I admit, I cannot watch it and I won't. I don't need images like that to be convinced and to do my best to reduce meat/buy it from grass-fed farms as often as possible.

[Quantess]

38. Hi! Thanks for responding to my thread, and yes,

who are these creeps we see in the videos?

[thelordofhell]

32. I saw this one cruel video

That had huge machines and roaming people participating in wholesale slaughter of entire acres of living things just so we can eat a vegetable.

[Quantess]

35. I used to think it was funny to joke about

"the silent scream of vegetables". Ooh, that poor carrot. Don't you feel cruel, ripping it from the ground and slicing it up? Somehow I grew out of it and realized it wasn't that funny, at about age 20. It was about the same age I realized that vegans and vegetarians aren't just pretentious elitists, and that animal cruelty occurs far too often in the meat industry.

I bet you are too wimpy to watch the video. I watched it. Seriously, it is not the worst thing I have ever seen. Go on, watch it, wimp. Take a look at where your meat comes from. I eat it, too, sometimes.

[thelordofhell]

39. I have seen worse videos than this

There is a certain sadism in saying I HAVE to watch something like this to understand that some people are cruel to animals that are used for food. But I guarantee that this probably isn't the norm for the industry.

I have absolutely no problem equating mass meat producing to mass farming. They are both polluting to the natural world, in their own way.

[Quantess]

42. hi!

But you are telling me, in your own wimpy way, that you didn't watch the video.

Bahahwahh! TOO WIMPY!!!
He's too wimpy to watch the video. Bawahhhaaa!
But yet, he will eat the corn dog that is gently eased into his mouth.

[thelordofhell]

48. Mmmm.......corn dogs

Freakishly mutated corn by-product wrapped around meat by-product and cooked in reclaimed petroleum.

[shockra]

43. Cruelty is the norm.

Part of an interview with Nathan Runkle of MFA by Animal Policy Examiner

APE: Why did you guys select E6? Did you have information that there were problems there to begin with?

RUNKLE: No. E6 was selected completely at random, and as soon as our investigator set foot in there he felt that there were calves who were suffering from untreated injury and illness, and the investigation was launched from there.

APE: Is that how most of your investigations— How you select the facilities for most of your investigations? Are they at random?

RUNKLE: Yes. All of MFA’s past investigations have been selected completely at random.

APE: So in your estimation, then, does the fact— Well, let me ask something else. Do you find abuses at all of the facilities you investigate?

RUNKLE: Yes. Abuse runs rampant in industrial agriculture where these animals are treated as commodities or little more than meat, milk, or egg-producing machines. And every time we’ve sent an investigator into a factory farm, slaughterhouse, or hatchery, they emerge with shocking evidence of egregious animal abuse, whether it be sadistic cruelty by workers, or the day-to-day intensive confinement these animals are subjected to, where they’re deprived of even the ability to stand up, lie down, turn around, or extend their limbs. Abuse is the rule rather than the exception in factory farm environments.

APE: OK. So you have never sent an investigator into one of these facilities and had them come back to you and say, “Look, there’s nothing to worry about at this one.”

RUNKLE: That’s correct. Yes.

APE: Because of course what I hear repeatedly when I’m interviewing folks in the ag industry or its supporters is that these types of incidents are quite rare.

RUNKLE: That has certainly not been true in our case. One hundred percent of our investigations have uncovered animal abuse at these facilities and have been conducted at random, which shows that animal agri-business is incapable of self-regulation, and that we need stricter state and federal laws to protect animals from abuse, and we need oversight, because currently the only real watchdogs that farmed animals have are undercover investigations at animal protection organizations.

http://directory.leadmaverick.com/Mercy-For-Animals/DallasFort-WorthArlington/TX/10/13371/index.aspx

[thelordofhell]

46. Of course it is

All food production is cruel......if you're the food

[Quantess]

44. Hello. My name is Quantess.

I am a really nice lady, with tattoos,even.

Nice to meet you! Notice I didn't say nice to "meat" you. LOL

[thelordofhell]

47. You do realize tattoo inks are made from animals

I hope you're not a vegan

Nice to meet you too by the way

:hug:

[Quantess]

45. Wimp! You won't watch it! BIG F...oh big fat wimp!

Fuckin' sissy!

[thelordofhell]

49. Why should I give it a hit?

Who f**king cares?

[lonestarnot]

41. We are so disgusting.