here are some of the reasons we held, tortured, abused and killed people at Guantánamo

[kpete]

Here are some of the reasons we’ve held people at Guantánamo, according to files obtained by WikiLeaks and, then, by several news organizations:

A sharecropper because he was familiar with mountain passes; an Afghan “because of his general knowledge of activities in the areas of Khost and Kabul based as a result of his frequent travels through the region as a taxi driver”; an Uzbek because he could talk about his country’s intelligence service, and a Bahraini about his country’s royal family (both of those nations are American allies); an eighty-nine year old man, who was suffering from dementia, to explain documents that he said were his son’s; an imam, to speculate on what worshippers at his mosque were up to; a cameraman for Al Jazeera, to detail its operations; a British man, who had been a captive of the Taliban, because “he was expected to have knowledge of Taliban treatment of prisoners and interrogation tactics”; Taliban conscripts, so they could explain Taliban conscription techniques; a fourteen-year-old named Naqib Ullah, described in his file as a “kidnap victim,” who might know about the Taliban men who kidnapped him. (Ullah spent a year in the prison.) Our reasons, in short, do not always really involve a belief that a prisoner is dangerous to us or has committed some crime; sometimes (and this is more debased) we mostly think we might find him useful.

.............

Yet there’s not a whiff in the documents that any of the work is leading the U.S. closer to capturing bin Laden. In fact, they suggest a sort of mission creep beyond the post-9/11 goal of using interrogations to hunt down the al Qaeda inner circle and sleeper cells.
http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/04/24/2183741_p2/us-intelligence-summaries-detail.html

And so we sacrificed our values and our moral standing for goals that were increasingly—vanishingly—distant from the ones we had been told were so urgent; or for no real reason at all.


Read more http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/closeread/2011/04/wikileaks-the-uses-of-guantanamo.html#ixzz1KYRRLUCg

[Luminous Animal]

1. The torture apologists are strangely silent this morning...

waiting for the official discussion points, perhaps?

[rhett o rick]

31. Torture isnt about gaining information as any expert knows. Torture is a terrorist tactic government

governments use to keep their subjects in fear. The Bush/Cheney admin were terrorists.

[madokie]

67. Terrorist of the highest order I might add

[tavalon]

68. Torture is really only terrorism.

That is almost concise enough for a bumpersticker!

[mod mom]

73. just think about how rummie purchased Mount Misery. Coincidence?

I don't think so ....these are some sick mofos.

[Enthusiast]

52. Torture is the single greatest crime.

I'm only saying.

[SpiralHawk]

2. ..and a Arab-looking guy named Jesus Christ who was preaching a bunch of heresy

"He was babbling some socialist claptrap about 'do unto others as you would have them to unto you...'

"We had to nail the guy for saying stuff so clearly in conflict with our Republicon Family Pharisee Torture & Profit Values."

- xCommander AWOL Bush (R - Torturer-in-Chief)

[Mnemosyne]

4. +1000 Perfect, SpiralHawk, just perfect. K&R n/t

[Enthusiast]

54. SPOT ON!

These right wing fucks would torture Jesus. No question about it.

Failing to investigate and prosecute the Bush Administration criminals is dereliction of duty.

[OwnedByFerrets]

64. +1

[gratuitous]

Oh sure, you're going to take the word of a bunch of documents over our own intel people

There are folks here at DU keeping an eye on this sort of thing. Oddly enough, I haven't seen too much from them in any of these threads. Prolly busy writing their little reports. But there is no doubt that the folks we've been holding for nearly a decade are the worst of the worst, and why would our own government lie to us about whether it's committing an ongoing war crime or crime against humanity? Just pay your taxes and don't worry your pretty little heads about such things. Our Wise Men in Washington know more and know best.

[hootinholler]

5. YEP!

Just look at how things worked out for LBJ and Nixon, and you'll understand that the wise guys do indeed know best.

-Hoot

[EFerrari]

8. This operation was so fucked up, even the FBI wanted nothing to do with it!

[Hissyspit]

17. True, that.

Mueller became director Sept. 4, 2001! Offered to resign to Ashcroft over the unconstitutional wiretapping.

[midnight]

3. I realize that this topic has had prior discussions, but I give credit to Cindy Sheehan...

While she is not responsible for this quote:"we sacrificed our values and our moral standing for goals that were increasingly—vanishingly—distant from the ones we had been told were so urgent", she was the voice heard over the flag waving and silent dark nights when soldiers dead bodies were/and continue to be brought back into the country, about why this war was being aloud to continue with all it's horror. To be sure this will include "Guantánamo". Let's bring them home....

[defendandprotect]

6. Chasing tortured confessions to provide a cover for 9/11 --

anyone still believe 9/11?

[SpiralHawk]

7. "Smirk. I believe. Giggle. Smirk." - xCommander AWOL (R)

[kpete]

10. double smirking...

A tree falls in the forest—say, the claim that Saddam Hussein has "weapons of mass destruction," or that Barack Obama has an infernal scheme to parade our nation's senior citizens before death panels. But then a network of media enablers helps it to make a sound—until enough people believe the untruth to make the lie an operative part of our political discourse.
http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/04/history-political-lying?page=2

[99th_Monkey]

42. Gee, it must be nice to own MSM & Congress. A lot can get done with the "right friends". ~nt

[Luminous Animal]

9. The New Yorker article (linked in the OP) raises an interesting question...

"Here’s another question: why didn’t Obama declassify these documents himself? His Administration has professed to be frustrated at its inability to convey to the public, early on, why Guantánamo should be closed. (See Eric Holdier’s press conference last month for an example.) Might it have helped if Obama had pointed to close-up pictures of the fourteen-year old, or the taxi driver, and really told their stories? He can be good at that, after all. Maybe it wouldn’t have been enough; maybe, clumsily handled, it could have backfired. But it could have shifted the narrative, and it would have been true. Instead, Obama never effectively challenged the image of Guantánamo as a sort of Phantom Zone of super villains, rather than the humiliating hodgepodge it is. When confronted with scare tactics, his Administration, as the Washington Post recounted in a long piece Saturday, retreated again and again; and then it just gave up. The White House feared the fear itself."

Read more http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/closeread/2011/04/wikileaks-the-uses-of-guantanamo.html#ixzz1KYWD62iH

[Thunderstruck]

12. "Might it have helped if Obama had pointed to close-up pictures of the fourteen-year old"

Only if he had wanted it to.

[Old and In the Way]

13. Perhaps Obama didn't realize the magnitude of the deception?

IIRC, this was one of Obama's earliest pronouncements to have them tried in NYC....the intensity of the Right's reaction must have surprised him...until he was briefed more deeply on the subject - then he let it go.

If these people had their day in public court to tell what they did and didn't know, it might have led back to a public discussion as to what really happened after the Bush administration took over the government in 2001. Obama is all about 'looking forward' and not holding anyone accountable for the war crimes that were committed. So we're doomed to relearn these lessons again.

[Enthusiast]

56. He might be all about "looking forward"

but it was outright dereliction of duty to ignore grievous crimes committed by the Bush cabal.

[MissDeeds]

63. +1000

[defendandprotect]

15. Obama isn't interested in resurrecting anything that could harm Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld ....

9/11 Reichstag Fire in NYC --

If you recall, Obama doesn't want to look back -- even in matters of crimes --

he only wants to move on!!

[JoePhilly]

23. Obama Bad. Obama Bad.

[Luminous Animal]

27. Can you come up with a reasonable explanation for not holding the previous admin

accountable for 10 years of war crimes? And continuing the policies of illegal wars, torture, mutilation, death, disease, and displacement of millions of human beings?

[rhett o rick]

33. There are two possiblities. One Pres Obama wont prosecute fellow members of the ruling elite.

or he has been threaten to stay away from prosecuting the war criminals. If anyone has a better explanation, please share.

[elias49]

35. I think the first...bringing the 'elite' to task.

That just doesn't happen in the US. It's not politically correct.
:puke:
The United States is truly no longer a nation of laws.

[rhett o rick]

39. I think it was Marx that spoke about political socialization.

There are two distinct classes. The Ruling Elite Class and the Lower Class (Proletariat). The Ruling Elite Class will throw us some "cake" once in a while but that's about it. They know they are the elite and it is for a reason. And they shall rule the Proletariat.

[liberation]

48. "The United States is truly no longer a nation of laws."

Has it ever been?

The years we came close to that are actually the exception not the rule for the couple of hundred years we have been a sovereign nation. Heck, for a big chunk of our history black were not even a full person under our "laws."

And really, in the big scheme of things it matters little. Laws are written and implemented by humans and thus fallible and arbitrary. A nation of laws, wether we like it or not, is still a nation of men. Laws in the end are nothing more than patches to make an imperfect social system sort of work.

[Enthusiast]

59. So that excuses this?

I can't believe you wrote that post. It is the nature of the crimes excused by the Obama DOJ. These are crimes of treason and torture. You do not excuse crimes of treason, or you have also committed treason.

[tavalon]

69. I wan't to believe that he got the Zapruder film review.

Alas, I doubt.

[coalition_unwilling]

36. People forget that Ellsburg's release of the Pentagon Papers covered

only the years of 1945-1968 (from Truman to LBJ). So why did Nixon and his cohort go after Ellsburg with such a passion and fury, (extending all the way to authorizing White House employees to burglarize Ellsburg's psychiatrist's office in Los Angeles to get dirt on Ellsburg)? Because Nixon was worried that Ellsburg had the goods on Nixon and just hadn't released it yet but would if allowed to stay free.

Cut to the present: The papers that were released cover 2002-2008 (I think). Why would Obama imdemnify his predecessors and not declassify these documents? Maybe because Obama wants to preserve his own executive authority. Obama after all promulgated a policy that the executive branch can authorize the extra-judicial assassinations of American abroad upon mere suspicion of involvement in activities deemed to constitute a threat to national security.

[Phlem]

40. heh

crickets!

-p

[liberation]

49. Standard tangential non answer about your lack of realistic attitude and ponies and stuff...

To break the deafening sound of silence, I guess.

[Enthusiast]

57. Not to mention Bush ignoring

warnings leading up to 9/11. Ignoring? I think they knew full well it was coming and even helped it along.

[Enthusiast]

58. PLUS ONE...............nt

[tekisui]

65. That's a weak response. When you can't defend the actions or inactions,

you default on that weak ass shit. Pathetic.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

70. Hmmm.

"Obama Good."

[rhett o rick]

71. Your argument is so compeling....er no, childish. nm

[They_Live]

72. He has not upheld

the rule of law as he promised. Not at all. It's never to late to mend, but the longer he waits, the bigger the mess.

[Enthusiast]

55. That too. nt

[Old and In the Way]

11. Guantánamo Bay was always about marketing the Bush GWOT to the US public.

Why else bring these people within a few miles of US shore? This kabuki theater wouldn't have had nearly the psychological impact had we retained these dirt farmers in their country. As a lot of us suspected all along, these people had low to no useful information on AQ operations. Those that might be able to shed light on AQ were either killed or no-where to be found. Bush certainly had no motivation whatsoever to want bin Laden brought to justice (Bush said as much in March of 02 - "who cares if bin Laden is alive? - he served the administration's purpose and no need to bring a former CIA asset to justice) and we've yet to have explained why the Bush-Cheney administration gave all of those AQ soldiers a free pass out of the region before we started carpet bombing Tora-Bora.

It's really no wonder that the past administration and the Republicans screamed bloody hell when Obama proposed trying these 'terrorists' in a civil court jurisdiction in NYC. The public would then have gotten a chance to see what these people didn't know as well as the non-existant 'proof' that the DOJ had of these hi-value terrorists. The GWOT would have proven to be as morally bankrupt as Bush's proof of WMD in Iraq.

[Enthusiast]

60. Right on! nt

[bullwinkle428]

14. Thom Hartmann just mentioned that WEARING A CASIO WRISTWATCH

earned several a one-way ticket to Guantanamo, as this particular brand was found to be used as a timer in some IEDs. :banghead:

[Phoenix63]

25. Supposedly there was 100 or so people

"captured" because of the watches they wore. Most of them were eventually released as it turns out they weren't terrorists, they were just broke and couldn't afford a Rolex.


I shouldn't joke but, it's laugh or scream.

[bullwinkle428]

76. I've worn a Casio for years - I wonder if I need to watch my back?

:hide:

[bobthedrummer]

16. K&R n/t

[Bandit]

18. And so we sacrificed our values and our moral standing

As long as Republicans are in Control we have no values or moral standing

[liberation]

47. The republicans were not in control for at least 2 years of the 9 Gitmo has been open

and they only held the house during 60% of the time this stuff has been going on.

We need to realize this is systemic.

[leftstreet]

19. K&R

[DirkGently]

20. It's so unfortunate that we "can't" close Gitmo. Would involve explaining all this, perhaps?

[truth2power]

21. Yes. And we (the liberal and/or sane) told them, didn't we?...

But Bush the psychopath smirked and giggled, and Rummy opined as how he was accustomed to standing all day at his lectern and it wasn't inconvenient for him.

Of course, JMHO you understand, Rummy was pleasuring himself while viewing the Gitmo flicks. Wouldn't want to deprive him of that, would we? Effing pervert!


I don't suppose I've mentioned how much I LOATHE those scum. I wish I believed in Hell. :grr:

[Enthusiast]

61. "I LOATHE those scum." Me too.....nt

[rgbecker]

22. America...Home of the Brave, Land of the Free.

[coalition_unwilling]

38. Torture is as American as cherry pie (with apologies to H. Rap Brown) - n/t

[Ignis]

24. U-S-A! U-S-A! We're number 1!

:puke:

[progressoid]

26. Oh, but I feel sooo much safer now.

[Bluenorthwest]

28. Turn that page, look forward, not back!

And don't forget to defend the Christian Sacraments while you are at it.

[spanone]

29. we have no more values...we are no better than our enemies at this point in our history

[rhett o rick]

32. We have no values. I agree. We have allowed our government to do horrible things in our name. nm

[Blue_In_AK]

30. Bush/Cheney et al. brought a tremendous amount of shame

down upon our country, and I don't see much being done to lift the load of guilt that we carry. The very first thing a new Democratic administration should have done was investigate and charge the people responsible for this, all the way to the top. One of my biggest disappointments in Obama's justice department.

[bertman]

34. On the bright side, at least most of them are still alive. In 'Nam we threw them

out of helicopters.

Sieg Heil!! Direktor Rumsfeld!!

Rec.

[Major Hogwash]

37. GITMO, good. Terrarists, bad.

Got it.
Nice, neat, and to the point.

But remember, Cheney said they got free food and healthcare!!

[on point]

41. The stain will never come off until we prosecute those responsible.

[grahamhgreen]

43. +1

[grahamhgreen]

44. Time to look behind us, before what is there destroys us.

[joshcryer]

45. The treatment of Gitmo prisoners is endimic in a totalitarian paranoid delusional culture.

They "think" they might be important, they "have doubts" that they're innocent, they have "information" that might be "useful."

Never hard evidence, just totalitarian innuendos. I've seen it a lot from western entrenched thinkers.

[libmom74]

46. And for leaking

that information, exposing the treatment of so called terrorists and embarrassing the US government an army private and US citizen is being held for an extended period of time without a trial and has been subjected to psychological torture. Land of the free. :sarcasm:

[Solly Mack]

50. The US 'interrogated' a taxi driver to death in 2002 in Afghanistan (Dilawar)

I haven't forgotten. I don't plan to forget.

The U.S. committed war crimes and is still pretending it wasn't that bad.

[Bluebear]

51. ONE "ignored" poster on this thread. Go figure.

[BillyJack]

53. Amurikan males....getting paid off the dole of military contracts

are SHAMELESS pussies! That's the truth.

[tclambert]

62. "The object of torture is torture." - George Orwell, in "1984"

"The object of power is power." "Ignorance is strength."

The wisdom of that book continues, despite the fact that the year 1984 went by long ago. However, you only know the book took place in 1984 because the Party said so. If the Ministry of Truth decided to erase a few decades, or centuries, and call it 1984, how would you know? 1,984 years from what? Surely, they wouldn't use the supposed birth of some obsolete religious figure as the basis of their calendar system. It's entirely possible the Party has been around that long.

There's a thing in 1984 called "the two-minute hate." For a brief period you're allowed to, in fact required to, let go and give yourself over to feelings of rage and hatred. In other words, it's a Tea Party rally.

[Overseas]

66. K&R.

Still stunned by my country having ignored Bush Team Torture.

Truth & Reconciliation hearings after the Bush Crash (moral and economic) could have really alerted the nation that we needed a thorough change of course.

Millions of us voted for that. Deep serious change. Not compromising with the party that took us so far off the rails.

[WillyT]

74. K & R !!!

:kick:

[HolyCity2012]

75. 158 Innocent Men Held At Gitmo - U.S. Media Indifferent?

Wikileaks documents show that 158 innocent men were held at Gitmo. Does the American media care? Cenk Uygur breaks it down.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x577342

[TheKentuckian]

77. We are a monstrous people. A decent people would not allow these kinds of wickedness.

Just as we wouldn't stand for millions hungry and homeless (including many children), essentially in order for the wealthiest to get more that they don't need and to finance military adventures of no benefit to our citizens or the world at large.

[Solly Mack]

78. ...