Guantanamo is a product of our culture, not Bush.

[LetTimmySmoke]

And that's why it's still open today, more than 2 years into Obama's term. We have a violent, jingoistic, racist streak. We have one of the highest rates of violent crime in the West. We imprison masses of people, mainly for non-violent "drug crimes." We glorify prison rape. Reality shows of people being arrested and imprisoned are popular here. MMA is popular. Violent movies and TV shows are popular. Most American states passed propositions that have excluded gay people from participating in civil marriage. We have high rates of school bullying. We have high rates of child abuse. Our countryside is littered with private "juvenile detention centers" where emotional, physical, and sexual abuse is commonplace.

That is why pointless torture at Guantanamo happened. It wasn't because of Bush, or Cheney, or John Yoo, or some powerful cabal. It was because of our violent culture that fueled an attitude that all Muslims are terrorists, and a blood-lust to act on that attitude. Only our violent culture can explain why so many obviously innocent kids were held and abused by people who knew they had nothing to do with actual terrorists. Guantanamo and places like it will only close when our culture changes.

[leftstreet]

1. Actually, violent crime in the US is at its lowest since the 70s

:shrug:

Also, you're maybe confusing "high rates" of child abuse and bullying with high rates of reporting

[LetTimmySmoke]

3. It has been dropping since the early 90s that's true

But is still much higher than the almost all other developed countries. (South Africa excluded)

[leftstreet]

9. Gitmo is a product of War Inc's attempt to convince us Teh Terra-ists Are Coming!

And you can take that to the deregulated bank

[LetTimmySmoke]

12. You think they convinced a blank slate?

They convinced a public that wanted war, and wanted blood. Look, I'm not absolving Bush, Cheney, and company. They should be held responsible for their crimes. But we should not use them to absolve our own selves as a people. War Inc sold us the bill of goods, it is us that bought it, and willingly.

[leftstreet]

13. Heavens no. We've had COMMUNISTS R COMING! BRITISH R COMING!

They've been doing this for eons

I see no evidence the public has ever "wanted" war or blood

[EFerrari]

2. Those aren't mutually exclusive propositions. nt

[Paradoxical]

5. Agreed. If Gitmo is a product of our culture, why not Bush?

[LetTimmySmoke]

7. Bush is too. No doubt there.

[LetTimmySmoke]

6. Of course the Bush Administaration was intstrumental in organizing the torture

But they really only started organizing it after it started happening. Bush and company are still guilty of war crimes, but it was our culture that really got the torture started.

[Paradoxical]

4. Gitmo is not a product of our culture. It is certainly shaping our culture.

But the two are not the same.

[LetTimmySmoke]

10. Gitmo is shaping our culture

But it didn't just arise out of nowhere. It took decades of racism and hatred to build up to the point where a place like Gitmo could be accepted.

[Paradoxical]

11. No, it took the approval of a high ranking military official and a couple lawyers.

Do not confuse concepts with concrete things.

Our culture did not necessitate Gitmo any more than German pride necessitated the Holocaust.

[LetTimmySmoke]

15. Centuries of anti-semetism brought about the Holocaust just as much as Hitler did.

Hitler's ranting against Jewish people and other "undesirables" would not have taken off and been accepted without centuries of bigotry. (Which, by the way, has nothing to do with German pride - anti-semetism/bigotry and national pride are not the same thing)

[Paradoxical]

17. "Lebensraum" - The main force behind the expansion of German territory.

The nationalist concept that Germans needed more room to accomplish their superior future.

Jews were an afterthought for German citizens. Hitler used their ignorance to ultimately accomplish his personal goal of exterminating all non-Aryans.

German nationalism created the socio-political climate that allowed Hitler to carry out the Holocaust. That does not mean that German citizens wanted to kill Jews.

[themadstork]

8. I've been reading a lot lately about the CIA's torture techniques

And dear god are they frightening. What they lack in sheer physical brutality is more than made up for by their determination to destroy the *entire* person, and not just their body.

This is gonna go down as a shameful chapter in the history books. I can't even think rationally about this right now. The level of cruelty and bloodthirstiness the American public has come to accept just astounds me. And I feel completely impotent in the face of it. How did that happen?

[Bluebear]

14. It's a product of Obama now, unfortunately

[LetTimmySmoke]

16. It is a product of us, as a people.

If the vast majority of Americans found Guantanamo a travesty that had to close, it would be closed. Politicians wouldn't dare do otherwise.

[Bluebear]

19. Obama codified indefinite detention at Gitmo, not me, sorry.

[Mojeoux]

20. "when after all, it was you and me!" ~nt

[Safetykitten]

18. Ah, the grand unification excuse is here.

[grahamhgreen]

21. Not our culture, but of the sociopathic, violent money hoarding class.

[rpannier]

22. It isn't just violence

It's fear.
I've never seen a society more governed by fear of 'the other' than Americans