Lawrence tonight talked about what a bullet

[wasupaloopa]

from an AR15 does to a body.

I was taught that in the Army before I was sent to Vietnam.

The entry wound is a hole you could put your finger into. The exit round is bigger than your fist. There is a shock wave caused by the bullet that destroys the organs.

This is the first time I have heard that since 1967.

It is strange to me that we never talked about how the AR15 kills.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. The article he referred to is at the link:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/02/what-i-saw-treating-the-victims-from-parkland-should-change-the-debate-on-guns/553937/?utm_source=atlfb

[dalton99a]

10. +1

[Demit]

32. Another good article from a trauma surgeon, written last year, goes into important detail

Doctor Goldberg, a trauma surgeon at Temple, talking about the 20 children and six adults at Sandy Hook, said that if people had been shown autopsy photos of the kids, the gun debate would have been transformed. “The fact that not one of those kids was able to be transported to a hospital tells me they were not just dead, but really really really dead.”

...

The price of survival is often lasting disability. Some patients wind up carrying around colostomy bags for the rest of their lives. Some are paralyzed. Some lose limbs entirely. During surgery, when blood flow is redirected to the brain and heart by an aortic clamp, blood goes away from other areas, and tissue in the lower extremities can die, causing gangrene; surgeons must amputate the leg at higher and higher points, first at the shin, then at the knee, then at the thigh, to stay ahead of the necrotic tissue. The femur bone may have to be disarticulated—removed entirely, and discarded. There was a woman several years ago whose boyfriend shot her in the leg. The bullet clipped the femoral artery and she bled. Goldberg had to amputate the woman’s legs to save her life.

http://highline.huffingtonpost.com/articles/en/gun-violence/

[Pachamama]

2. Horrific....

I had no idea that the exit wound would be like this and what it has a bullet do in the body....

I am absolutely mortified that a weapon like that is allowed to be made, yet alone be sold and purchased and be owned in our country....

[OhNo-Really]

14. Read article below. Great team reporting on this post. ❤️Team DU

[FSogol]

3. That was hard to watch.

[KT2000]

4. the radiologist's findings

need to be part of the discussion. Yes - these are killing weapons. I like how Lawrence said they did not have a fighting chance they would have had were it a hand gun.

[OhNo-Really]

16. And THIS is the answer to the Meme: "They would be just as dead if shot by a...."

Our local radio station has an asshole on in the afternoon (it is our traffic report station) and I almost drove to the station to splain that NO! they wouldn't be just as dead if shot by a different gun or a knife!!!!

He actually used the false equivalence that a knife would have killed just as many people in 5 minutes.

The asshole was defending the AR-15 and ignoring the actual slaughtered victims of a 5 minute rampage.

[Kaleva]

5. Does a .22LR or 9mm round fired from an AR-15 do the same thing?

[LexVegas]

8. No, but a buckshot does. nt

[wasupaloopa]

9. I was taught to use the M14, M16, M60, M79,

M1911 and M2 50cal.

I had a .22 single action and used my dad’s 12 gauge shot gun

3 Colts, two Browings, a Winchester and I don’t know who made the M14 and M79.

I don’t know about any other gun data.

[Kaleva]

12. Well you'd then know the differance the damage that a .223 AR-15 can do..

compared to what a .22LR AR-15 does. Since you have experience with the M-16 and .22 single action.

[wasupaloopa]

15. I dont know why you asked the question in the first plsce

Of course I know what a .22 from a pistol and M16 do to what ever is hit.

After Vietnam I only shot targets with the .22

I know nothing about the AR15 but what I read here over the years.

[Kaleva]

19. Because of what you said in your own OP

"The entry wound is a hole you could put your finger into. The exit round is bigger than your fist. There is a shock wave caused by the bullet that destroys the organs.

This is the first time I have heard that since 1967.

It is strange to me that we never talked about how the AR15 kills."

The AR-15 can fire dozens of different caliber rounds. Does a .22LR fired from an AR-15 do the same kind of damage as what you describe in your OP. Leave an exit hole bigger then your fist? What about a round fired from a 9mm AR-15? Same size exit wound?

[wasupaloopa]

22. I dont know what a .22 from a AR does.

I imagine it is nothing like a M16 which is what I know about. The shooter in FL did not shoot .22s

The fact that you can shoot what he did is why the discussion about the damage it does.

[Docreed2003]

17. In short

A .22LR would be similar to a .223 a 9mm wouldn’t be as devestating, but both would cause significant damage.

I honestly have never personally seen the effects of a 9mm round shot from an AR on the human body but I have seen the effects of a .22LR and .223 from an AR and a .223 from an M4 can do. I’ll spare you the gorey details.

[Kaleva]

21. A .22LR is similair to a .223? I think not.

Note the difference:

[Docreed2003]

23. I do not need your schooling

You ask the effects on the human body and I told you. I’m sorry if you don’t like my answer. I’ve seen both effects, up close and personal as a surgeon who has taken care of both civilian and combat military trauma. So take your “I’m gonna school you” shit somewhere else because I’ve shot both, and I’ve seen what they can do to actual living breathing people.

[Kaleva]

25. People can make up all kinds of things on the interent.

Your statements are easily refuted by facts easily found at reputable sites.

The .223 Remington bullet is about twice as heavy as a .22LR bullet, the .223 bullet travels at a velocity twice that of a .22LR and the .223 round has several time the energy of a .22LR.

A little knowledge of science will tell you that the .223 Remington will do far more damage then a .22LR.

[Docreed2003]

31. Ok...

Thanks for the lesson. We are all enlightened by your vast knowledge of ammunition. Do you feel better? And you’re right, I’ve totally made up my experiences and am talking out of my ass...whatever man. We’re done here. You’ve had your say, you think you’re right...and yet not once did you ask about any one of the specific circumstances that I’ve encountered to base my opinion upon.

[wasupaloopa]

24. It is the actual bullet on the top he is referring to

[Kaleva]

28. That's where I think a lot of confusion comes from

People think the AR-15 fires just one round and that is the .223 Remington. The AR-15 is a platform that can be modified to fire many different rounds.

So when folks are talking about the damage the AR-15 does, what they really are talking about is the damage the .223 Remington round does.

[Kaleva]

33. The .223 bullet weighs about twice as much as a .22LR bullet

And I'm talking about just the projectile and not the entire cartridge which is the bullet and case.

[OhNo-Really]

27. Good Answer

[pnwmom]

45. Obviously the bullet on the right is bigger. The question is whether the smaller bullet has

Last edited Sat Feb 24, 2018, 08:33 PM - Edit history (1)

a sharply defined wound with a clear path or if both of the bullets -- if used in the AR-15 -- have the high-velocity "shock wave" effect that leaves damage in a path far larger than the actual bullet.

[DetroitLegalBeagle]

52. It does not.

Not even close. Damage done to the body has everything to do with the caliber and type of ammunition used, and little to nothing with what type of gun fired it. 1 caveat, barrel length does affect it slightly. A .223 fires from a bolt action rifle will do the same damage as a .223 fired from an AR15. A .22lr fired from a single shot .22 rifle will do the same damage as a .22lr fired from an AR15.

[pnwmom]

54. Others say that the velocity also matters, and that the AR15 is faster. and causes more damage.

Last edited Sun Feb 25, 2018, 03:02 PM - Edit history (2)

Do you disagree?

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/02/what-i-saw-treating-the-victims-from-parkland-should-change-the-debate-on-guns/553937/

Routine handgun injuries leave entry and exit wounds and linear tracks through the victim's body that are roughly the size of the bullet. If the bullet does not directly hit something crucial like the heart or the aorta, and they do not bleed to death before being transported to our care at a trauma center, chances are, we can save the victim. The bullets fired by an AR-15 are different; they travel at higher velocity and are far more lethal. The damage they cause is a function of the energy they impart as they pass through the body. A typical AR-15 bullet leaves the barrel traveling almost three times faster than, and imparting more than three times the energy of, a typical 9mm bullet from a handgun. An AR-15 rifle outfitted with a magazine with 50 rounds allows many more lethal bullets to be delivered quickly without reloading.


I have seen a handful of AR-15 injuries in my career. I saw one from a man shot in the back by a SWAT team years ago. The injury along the path of the bullet from an AR-15 is vastly different from a low-velocity handgun injury. The bullet from an AR-15 passes through the body like a cigarette boat travelling at maximum speed through a tiny canal. The tissue next to the bullet is elastic—moving away from the bullet like waves of water displaced by the boat—and then returns and settles back. This process is called cavitation; it leaves the displaced tissue damaged or killed. The high-velocity bullet causes a swath of tissue damage that extends several inches from its path. It does not have to actually hit an artery to damage it and cause catastrophic bleeding. Exit wounds can be the size of an orange.

With an AR-15, the shooter does not have to be particularly accurate. The victim does not have to be unlucky. If a victim takes a direct hit to the liver from an AR-15, the damage is far graver than that of a simple handgun shot injury. Handgun injuries to the liver are generally survivable unless the bullet hits the main blood supply to the liver. An AR-15 bullet wound to the middle of the liver would cause so much bleeding that the patient would likely never make it to a trauma center to receive our care.

[DetroitLegalBeagle]

56. Oh, I absolutely agree on velocity, not on the 2nd part.

Velocity and mass, along with the actual bullet design, dicates how bad of a wound it creates. Not the gun. The ar15s danger is the rate of fire and magazine capacity. The bullet it shoots(a .223) does the exact same damage if were shot out of any other gun, like a bolt action rifle or single shot rifle. The same bullet fired out of all 3 guns will do the same damage.

[TwistOneUp]

53. It's the cartridge...

The part of the cartridge that contains the gunpowder is bigger. While the .223 projectile is a bit longer than the .22, that's not what gives the shot it's punch. It's the amount of gunpowder that causes the .223 projectile to fly farther and with more kinetic energy than the .22...

Just sayin'. Not trying to take a side here.

[Marengo]

43. Wait, what? The damage cased by .22LR is similar to .223? Wow, the .22LR Ive been shooting...

For the past 40 years must have been defective!

[Docreed2003]

44. In every single case no...

But I’ve seen a .22L fired accidentally at point blank range that had a freakishly similar effect to the .223’s standard come of injury

[Marengo]

49. Ah, understood. Ive never witnessed a point-blank injury. I have hunted with both calibers (.223

Mainly for varmint control) and .223 exists in entirely different realm of lethality.

[Spider Jerusalem]

36. Non sequitur of a question since the AR-15 isn't chambered .22LR

and the majority of AR-15s sold are 5.56mm NATO/.223 Remington. Find an instance of a mass shooting where the shooter was armed with an AR-15 of non-standard calibre like 9mm and we can have that discussion.

[aikoaiko]

48. Lots of ARs are chambered for 22lr, but you are correct that the majority are .223/5.56.

I have one myself. It much less expensive to shoot with converted ARs. Not as much bang, but you still get practice with controls and technique.

[NickB79]

50. No, they do not

A .22 or 9mm is travelling 1200 feet per second, a .223 3000-3300 feet per second. On impact, an FMJ .223 bullet penetrates a few inches, destabilizes, yaws sideways and breaks apart due to the high velocity. The bullet fragments keep going and each cut new wound channels through the body.

.22's and 9mm's, even hollow points, don't do this. They travel in a straighter line in the body and generally hold together because of their low velocity.

One caveat: solid or sturdily constructed .223 rounds behave more like .22's. Nosler Partition bullets used in deer hunting cut a smaller wound channel to get more penetration and less meat damage.

[krispos42]

6. Yeah, this is how all high-velocity rifle bullets work.

And pistol bullets, too, come to it. Expanding bullets expand on impact; that's why they're called expanding bullets. What do you think people go deer hunting with? An expanding bullet with even more kinetic energy than the .223 Rem that the AR-15 commonly shoots.

In fact, in most states it's illegal to go deer hunting with non-expanding bullets, and in some states the .223 Rem is not allowed for deer hunting because it's not powerful enough.

Nothing new here. There are plenty of videos on the internet showing bullets being shot into ballistic gelatin and the wound channels examined. For sport hunting and for self-defense, expanding bullets are standard.

[OhNo-Really]

29. Bullets kill

according to Doctors, the tumbling bullets are the worst

[Straw Man]

37. Yes. And rifle bullets kill more effectively than handgun bullets.

Substitute "rifle" for "AR-15" in the linked article, and you will have an accurate representation. As such, it perpetuates the myth that .223/5.56 rounds are uniquely deadly.

There are no "tumbling bullets." It's a myth based on a misconception.

[OhNo-Really]

38. Interesting, I was quoting the Vet who was shot by one.

[Straw Man]

41. Talk to some WWII vets (if you can find one) ...

... who were shot with 8mm Mauser or 6.5mm Arisaka. All bullets will change course (and possibly fragment) on contact. The degree to which they do so depends on a number of factors, including bullet weight and type (hollowpoint vs. full metal jacket), muzzle velocity, range to target, rate-of-twist of barrel rifling, and density of what they hit. Exit wounds are always larger then entrance wounds. These are the facts of the situation. Rifle rounds are far deadlier than handgun rounds. The .223/5.56 is not uniquely deadly.

[drray23]

7. In officer's school.i had to watch actual videos and pics

Showing what 5.56 bullets (French famas) did to a human body. Pretty gruesome. We also shot through ballistic gel .

Basically, it's not just the speed, it's the fact it rotates. If you get hit in the arm for example, the shockwaves due to speed and rotation will shatter the bone in half of your arm. It's even worse of course if it hits an organ. These weapons of wars were made to not just kill but also maim the enemy. A shot in the arm or leg was so disabling that victims would have to be abandoned or carried by two other men, effectively putting three soldiers out of action.

Civilians have no business owning any such weapon.

[wasupaloopa]

11. Yes I knew about the tumbling also.

Imagine hunting a bird with it.

[Straw Man]

35. Bullets don't "tumble" ...

Last edited Sat Feb 24, 2018, 01:54 PM - Edit history (1)

... unless you have a serious issue with your weapon's barrel. If they did, the accuracy would be nil. The notion that .223 bullets "tumble" is a misconception based on the fact that light, fast bullets like the .223 have more of a tendency to yaw on impact than slower, heavier bullets.

[wasupaloopa]

42. Well if you could you should go back to my basic training sergeants and tell them.

[Straw Man]

46. I'm sure it doesn't matter now.

But they were wrong. I wouldn't take a basic training sergeant's word for anything except how to stay out of trouble in basic training.

[aikoaiko]

51. There was a lot of misinformation about the AR/M-16 rifle in the early days.

They even claimed it was self-cleaning. It's not really self-cleaning, but Eugene Stoner used a much cleaner ammo powder which meant it needed to be cleaned less often.

Anyone who has every shot and cleaned an AR knows that it is just the opposite (i.e., it Sh*ts where it eats).

And then the military issued M16s in Vietnam with cheaper dirtier ammo and the self-cleaning claim caused a disaster.

[Straw Man]

34. Rotate?

All rifle bullets (and handgun bullets) rotate. That's their advantage over smoothbore muskets: it gives them accuracy.

I'm not sure what you mean by "shockwave." Are you talking about hydrostatic shock? The jury is still out on whether that actually has any effect on tissue or bone. In any case, if you get hit by a rifle bullet in your arm, the thing that shatters the bone is the bullet itself.

There is a lot of junk science being promulgated on here. Please check your facts, people.

[OhNo-Really]

13. The Vet tells story of how AR-15 like bullet traveled through his body

This is an important article for your friends to read. People do not survive these bullets most of the time. This Vet was lucky

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210271997

[wasupaloopa]

20. Unlike the guy who did not face the

shooter in FL high school, if you are prepared to go against firepower like a AR15 you are prepared to give your life.

Not many of us have been in that position and most of us do not want to be. Arming teachers is asking them to give their lives.

[OhNo-Really]

26. If so, teachers should get combat pay, huge survivor benefits

If it costs a lot, the lawmakers will find a way to get these semis off the streets.

The internet has thousands of these heinousmweapons for sale for less than $1000

[Kaleva]

40. Yet many hunters will not hunt white tail deer with it as it's not reconsidered powerful enough

[Docreed2003]

18. Its not pretty

A standard .223 round does devestating damage. Most entry wounds in the thorax go in the size of your pinky and exit the size of your fist or more. I’ve seen it more times than I care to relay.

[Cha]

30. Mahalo for this, wasupaloopa

[Kaleva]

39. The pump action AR15 will never be banned

[aikoaiko]

47. That energy transfer in the shockwave is why they are effective for home-defense.

Hollow points are designed to keep the bullet from exiting thereby transferring all the energy into the body.

[Still In Wisconsin]

55. Yep, the 5.56 mm NATO round is nasty as hell.

I have never served, but my Dad and several friends have. My Dad (USMC, Korea) was also a cop and therefore was around guns for decades- he told me once during my younger years, when I was, like many young boys, fascinated with guns, what that round does when it hits something. I had asked him, ignorant as I was, isn't it basically the same as a .22? He explained how it worked as compared to a .30-06 that he carried in an M1 Garand. So nasty.