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Augiedog

(2,545 posts)
Thu Mar 8, 2018, 09:25 PM Mar 2018

If the attack by Russia on the United States is an accepted fact and we seem unable to defend

ourselves, why isn’t article 5 (I think that’s the correct provision) of the nato treaty being enacted? The article provides for the defense of any signatory attacked or under attack to be defended by the rest of the signatories.

Seems to me that while the United States should be capable of defending itself in this case, we appear the opposite. And while it is in the interests of America to stand up to foreign assaults, something seems to have waylaid us.

It is also in the interest in the other signatories to defend what is usually thought of as the strongest member of NATO. But if Russia can get away with attacking us, clearly he can do the same to any other member with impunity.

So having said that, I think that we the United States, are incapable of responding to this attack, for reasons unclear at this moment (or maybe all to clear). It is or should be incumbent upon the others signatories to come to our aid. if we are so incapacitated that we are unable to request this aid, they must act on our behalf.

We simply need our partners, our allies, to take on Russia and make them pay. If they think a debilitated America is a good thing in this dangerous world, one in which we can no longer even protect something as simple as an election, let alone our Nation. Our failure to recognize the attack for what it is and the danger it holds for all around the world should not be seen as an excuse for our allies to not come to our rescue.

The most basic premise of NATO is that an attack on one is an attack on all. The Domino Effect may or may not have been relevant in the Vietnam era, but it could be here and now. First Russia came for America.....who is next.

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If the attack by Russia on the United States is an accepted fact and we seem unable to defend (Original Post) Augiedog Mar 2018 OP
They definitely won the first battle. byronius Mar 2018 #1
it only deals with armed military attacks atm Exotica Mar 2018 #2

byronius

(7,394 posts)
1. They definitely won the first battle.
Thu Mar 8, 2018, 09:32 PM
Mar 2018

And they're massing to do further damage.

But I am reminded of the words of Winston Churchill when he remarked that fascism is strong out of the gate but decreases in function with time, while democracy is slow to respond but becomes unstoppable once public opinion is focused.

The ability to think, and to judge from facts -- the percentage of voting Americans who can do this will determine our fate, and I have some faith that they are enough.

It was a sneak attack, using Americans on the inside and a hundred other methods. We'll set this straight, marshal our forces, and return the Russians to an agrarian state with all due humanity and kindness.

I doubt NATO would be effective without us. We were always the linchpin.

We have to fix ourselves, and then act with NATO.

 

Exotica

(1,461 posts)
2. it only deals with armed military attacks atm
Thu Mar 8, 2018, 09:49 PM
Mar 2018
How NATO's Article 5 works

https://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2015/03/economist-explains-6

NATO is the world’s most important military alliance. It developed as a bulwark against Soviet aggression in the early postwar period but has remained together, and remarkably active, in the decades since the collapse of the Soviet Union. Its recent interventions have been wars of choice; NATO led the intervention in Afghanistan and helped defeat Slobodan Milosevic’s regime in Yugoslavia. Yet one of NATO's founding principles was that of collective self-defence, embodied in the crucial fifth clause of the 1949 Washington Treaty. It says that “an armed attack on one or more [members] shall be considered an attack on all” and that members will assist the victim(s) of such an attack “forthwith”. Article 5 seemed something of an anachronism after the Soviet collapse. Now, as Russia boosts its defence spending, carries out dummy nuclear attacks on neighbours, and calls snap military exercises on the border with the Baltic states, it is relevant once again. But what does Article 5 actually require of NATO allies, and would they follow through in a pinch?

Article 5 says that the response may include armed force, but it does not mandate it. All that NATO actually promises is to take “such action as it deems necessary” to restore and maintain security. That could be anything from nuclear war to a stiff diplomatic protest. Three tricky considerations would determine the precise nature of any NATO response to foreign aggression. The first is geography: in places where an aggressor can quickly complete and consolidate an invasion, NATO's options are very limited. The Baltics, for instance, occupy a thin flat strip of land which is all but indefensible. A Russian surprise attack could reach the coast within hours, and reversing a successful Russian invasion would be hard, even futile. Yet that was also true of West Berlin. The Baltics argue that an attack on them would mean an all-out East-West confrontation thanks to Article 5. If Russia believes that, deterrence is working. But Article 5 does not specify such a response.

A second and related problem is dealing with escalation. Many in NATO would be happy to reinforce the Baltic states in a crisis, and even to use lethal force against “little green men”. But if Russia responded to NATO preparations by announcing a no-fly zone, backed by its formidable air defences and bristling arsenal of tactical nuclear weapons, the stakes would quickly become dangerously high. The decision to act, or not, would be made not at NATO HQ in Brussels, but in Washington, DC. And, many eastern NATO members worry, it is hard to imagine an American president risking nuclear war to defend a tiny country half a world away.

Yet in practice the biggest challenge to NATO is in defining what is and is not an attack. Russia practises “hybrid war”—a mixture of propaganda, corruption, subversion, espionage, the exploitation of economic and energy dependency, diplomacy and the use of irregular military forces (those “little green men” who popped up in Crimea last year). In the Baltics, hybrid war could involve attempts to incite ethnic, linguistic and regional tensions, or the use of some staged emergency—such as a problem with Russia’s railway traffic across Lithuania to Kaliningrad. What might count locally as an intolerable assault on the Baltic states’ sovereignty may not be seen in Brussels as an “armed attack” for Article 5 purposes. Much NATO effort is now going into ensuring that it can respond in a practical way, militarily and politically, to appeals for help. All the strength of the world's mightiest military alliance will not amount to much if its members cannot agree when an aggressor has actually stepped over the line.

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