Gobsmacked by an old republican friend.

[Egnever]

I have an old friend from high school many moons ago that is now a die hard republican and Trump voter.

He came to my town this week and so I went to visit with him and catch up. In most things in life he is a fairly nice guy and has always been kind to me but he is not the sharpest tool in the shed. When we were kids his stepfather fed him a steady stream of bullshit. How illegals were taking all his money through welfare blah blah.

Anyway tonight we were hanging out and eventually the topic turned to Trump and while I knew it would not end well I decided to forge ahead anyway because I have known this guy for over 30 years and I wanted to see just what it was he saw in Trump.

In the course of the conversation I learned a lot about why he supports trump and in the end what it really comes down to is a completely alternate set of facts. In the end for him I think it comes down to the wall and a hatred of Clinton. He believes that Illegal immigrants come here for welfare and are sucking us dry and so he wants a big wall to keep them out. He also absolutely loathes Clinton.

When I tried to nail him down on just what it was about Clinton that he was so pissed about it came down to two things. One he thinks she colluded with Russia to funnel money to her foundation supposedly for Haiti relief. He said she got a million dollars from russia for Haiti that she stole.

This was the first thing that really made me nuts. I asked him why in the world 1 million dollars to her foundation even if true was such a problem for him yet the guy he elected screwed people for millions repeatedly and he could not care less. (whataboutism and not really a great argument but I was curious) I then asked why in the world she would conspire to steal a million dollars when she can make 250k for an hour long speech pretty much any time she wants. What would be the point of that? That made him stop and re think a bit but still he wanted to cling to it.

So I said that is it ? You hate her for a supposed million dollars given to her foundation? To which he replied no He was also pissed that Clinton had sex with someone in the oval office and that he was never punished for it.....

What?...so you elected a pussy grabber?

I asked him what he was talking about. What about him being impeached and he said....He was never impeached...

What?...

What in the actual fuck!!!

He was adamant it never happened. No impeachment period.

So of course I pulled out my phone and just said ok google was Bill Clinton impeached... Yes in 1998 ... As a result, four charges were considered by the full House of Representatives; two passed, making Clinton the second president to be impeached...

His response.. That is fake news. Hooooly shit!

Ok What news source would you accept? To which he had no answer.

After that we got into the immigration debate but that was so full of misconceptions I could not even begin to take them all in forget about trying to repeat them here. The bottom line is he feels like immigrants are just coming to america and living off welfare. Obviously that is ridiculous but he believes it and it did not mater what I said to him there was no convincing him period.

I suppose I will collect as much non partisan info as I can to send to him not that I think at this point it will do any good I just feel the need to try since I have known him nearly my whole life and it pains me to see someone who in every day life is a kind person but votes with a party that is cruel as hell mostly because they have been filling his head with shit for years and he seems unwilling to think critically about any of it.

His refusal to admit that Clinton was impeached even in the face of multiple sources left me completely gobsmacked and I think opened my eyes a bit to how deeply many of these folks are buried in a sea of disinformation.

[Exotica]

1. He is conflating impeachment with conviction and removal in the Senate

Sounds like an asshole as well.

[Egnever]

3. Perhaps

but he was adamant it just never happened at all.

Thing is he really is not an asshole in day to day life I am by far a much bigger asshole. That said some of the stuff he said tonight definitely has me rethinking the asshole equation.

[Exotica]

12. Show him the official congressional record for the impeachment vote

https://www.congress.gov/bill/105th-congress/house-resolution/611

https://www.congress.gov/congressional-report/105th-congress/house-report/830/1

He cannot argue with the official records of Congress

[get the red out]

2. Right wing media

Rs have been led to believe that the only "News" sources they can trust are Fox and their radio screamers. The propaganda they are fed is unbelievable, it makes it impossible to talk to them about current events since there are no mutually agreed upon facts. Just bringing up a neutral report on a story is like condemning their religion.

[Egnever]

4. You would think I would realize that after all this time

And while my head tells me that is true when actually confronted with the depths of how deep it actually goes it left me nearly speechless.

[Renew Deal]

5. This all about tribalism.

So it doesn’t matter what you say. Do you think he would act differently if he had different facts? No

I hate these situations because it forces you to look at your friend like the s******* he is politically. I’ve had throw downs with one of my good friends, though I don’t think he’s as politically aware as yours.

[Egnever]

7. I like to think he would act differently with actual facts

you are likely right and I am kidding myself.

That said if we can't move folks we have known for 30 years we are in a heap of trouble.

[Renew Deal]

9. I agree

[sharedvalues]

36. No, it DOES matter. Keep trying

Facts do work. In cult interventions you need to give brainwashed people new information. They may not agree with you right then, but in many cases they think about what you said.
I find this article useful
http://www.chicagonow.com/politics-now/2017/12/the-gop-despises-the-trump-base-and-so-does-trump/



The first time I heard the term “useful fools,” it was from the mouth of Lyn Nofziger, one of President Reagan’s friends and advisers. He used the phrase about the Religious Right. I had raised a concern that perhaps we had opened a Pandora’s Box by inviting religious zealots into the party.

Lyn looked at me like I had just lost my mind. He turned to me and said, “Do you know how many people Jerry Falwell reaches per week? We want their votes. We can control the useful fools.”

The GOP loves to use people. In public, there is high praise for their positions and their beliefs. We would feign enlightenment at their words to manipulate them and their bases. We gave sincere assurances we were on the same team.

It was all, utter bull.

[Rorey]

47. That was a good read.

I am married to a useful fool.

[MisterProton]

57. It's more than that...

There are deep level philosophical issues behind this. Ultimately the definitions of the words we use shape our perceptions. They really are seeing another reality, as are we all. Theirs is just a bit more divergent than probably ours.

Confirmation bias just reinforces everyone's beliefs that "they are right". The natural tendency of people is when you start poking at their reality is to go into defense mode and lock down even tighter. It's a human thing, and goes way beyond politics.

[roscoeroscoe]

6. Propaganda

Programming in America. Some people fall for it, sadly.

[Renew Deal]

11. This is worth watching

When you have time

[Hortensis]

8. Sad, but facts only make these people double down on their beliefs

because they KNOW the facts aren't right, thus their sources are lying and dismissed. One of my own basic frames some beliefs are based on was triggered when a neighbor recommended one of Ann Coulter's books for me to read to understand liberals. Like your old friend, I KNEW Ann Coulter was an evil bitch yada yada, and the recommendation completely ruined any credibility this person might have had (already none, but!).

Maybe instead just talk about restoring decency and good sense, keeping off the details? It sounds probable that he also regrets what's come between you.

If you must discuss issues, choose ones that do a far end run around his delusions? New events and issues might be useful before right wing media tells him what to think on them--if they do. They can't and don't cover everything. I've caused many silences in conservatives on mixed boards over the years by mentioning something new in the news and eventually recognized the pattern. No answer because their media haven't told them about it and they don't know what to say in disagreement yet.

Btw, I googled Bill's impeachment as fake news and got no hits on my two first screens. Apparently that delusion isn't being hit hard, if at all. Wonder if it's more than just your friend's, though, and if so what function it could serve as we move toward impeachment of Trump.

[sharedvalues]

37. Discuss propaganda. Tell them how right wing media lies to them

Tell them that gop billionaires have built Fox and Limbaugh to get votes for billionaires. Engage on propaganda. It works.

[Hortensis]

39. Not with our neighbors in this deep-red area.

Total waste of time. But good that you've apparently had some success.

[JI7]

10. he is a bigot and looks for any reason to justify his support for a bigot

you should have said something that made it seem like you would sympathize with bigotry and he would have let out the truth .

[catbyte]

13. Your friend has been brainwashed, just like a cult. Check out this graphic from CEI:

Nothing will get through to them short of deprogramming. It's sick, wrong, and despicable. It can be laid right at Fox News & the likes of Limbaugh's feet.

[IMG][/IMG]

[sharedvalues]

38. We can be part of that.

You know the truth - you can deprogram. They wil initially tell you they don’t believe you but they will think about what you said.

[catbyte]

51. Sadly, that hasn't happened to me. I had to cut all ties to a friend I've known for

almost 50 years because of this. I tried for over a year to reason with him, but he just dug in his heels even deeper. Some will never, ever admit they're wrong until the orange nightmare screws them over personally.

[SWBTATTReg]

14. Another idiot...don't waste your time w/ folks like this...

When I heard your story, I immediately thought of a couple of persons in my life exactly like the one you're describing.

When I had my 'encounter' w/ person 1 (ranting and raving about tRUMP, immigrants, etc.), I blew up and I immediately shut off dealing w/ him period, and refuse to do so since then. And I will not reopen any dialogue w/ this person and will not ever do so.

It's like your Mom telling you to not watch a particular show on TV because it's bad for you. I'm not the only one who feels like this. When others learned of my action, they supported it and knew exactly why I had done it, and approved of it, and said, 'it's about time someone done that', etc..

And what's funny about it, this guy is a bully too (w/ his mouth more or less, and nothing else since he's a coward). He's part of the 'older' generation, but god, that's no excuse either. No, he's just a jackass.
If he refuses to see the truth, then he'll suffer the consequences of it. Fine, go away and leave me and mine alone.

If any of us were to waste our time and energy on idiots like this who can't read the writing on the wall and then blame everyone else (e.g., Clinton, the immigrants in this case) for all of the wrongs in their life, then they are in for a world of hurt, which will never go away, because they ignore the truth right in front of their face.

It will come back to bite him in the ass numerous times. I definitely believe in karma, and what you believe and how you act will come around and reward you or bite you royally in the ass.

It's a simple 'treat me like you would like others to 'treat' you. A simple ethic to live by.

[barbtries]

15. this is why

i haven't spoken to my brother since before the election. i'm afraid it will result in a permanent split. he's been brainwashed by fox for about 20 or so years now.

[Cha]

26. Sorry, barb..

I know how fux screws with the heads of the susceptible. they seem to like what they're dishing out and are like addicts.. they'll never admit it's not real or good for them.

I heard from my son that my ex-husband is a fux truther.. so that never would have worked out.

[barbtries]

33. my brother's always been a racist.

my theory is that fox validates that for him so he went all in. i have this fantasy where if he agrees to watch "the brainwashing of my dad" i'll read an o'reilly book or something. watch fox for as long as the movie is. whatever.

we were able to avoid politics altogether the last time i saw him and i think that's the only option. i'm just not sure he'll be able to keep his mouth shut about it and once he opens the door it's on.

[sharedvalues]

40. YES!

You’re doing the right thing by attacking the propaganda. If you get him to watch the movie that will be great.

[barbtries]

41. well so far it's just a fantasy.

we live on opposite sides of the country so. sigh.

[Cha]

42. Exactly.. that's what I

was trying to say.. fux validates how people are anyway.

I suspect my ex husband was a bit of a racist and he definitely likes those tax cuts.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

27. I've found that no contact works best with Foxed-up "friends" and family who've been brainwashed.

Have an uncle who is barred from ever setting foot in my house... even my wife, who had a heart of gold, can't stand the man and his vile anti-immigrant, pro-tRump rhetoric.

[True Blue American]

16. I think your second paragraph said it all

Apparently he has never progressed past what his stepfather told him,so it is easy
for him to be swayed by right wing rhetoric.

Normal people grow and progress as they mature. He has not. His being upset about Clinton’s sex life 20 years ago,ignoring the scandals of Trump that are going on now shows.

I do notice he never mentions Trump and his lies and actions.

[Hav]

17. I agree with those who think there isn't much hope

Kind of relevant, a recent thread on DU: https://upload.democraticunderground.com/123056272
Titled the backfire effect, it mentions a phenomenon that providing evidence contrary to someone's opinion can sometimes even strengthen the belief in the wrong opinion.

[sharedvalues]

43. Sometimes. But usually it helps.

Don’t be afraid to challenge people about propaganda. Don’t let the right win the information war. It’s inportant to let people know their bubbles are just that.

[BumRushDaShow]

18. "how deeply many of these folks are buried in a sea of disinformation"

That about sums it up.

And Drumpf's tactic of continually yelling and tweeting "fake news!1111!!" gave these folks an out from actually learning and accepting the truth, which was why the tactic was used.

[Cha]

28. Yes, the chief brainwasher has his

perfect little brainwashing tool.. his cell phone to tweet out to the cult's his latest brainwashing mantra.

[GreenEyedLefty]

19. I find that "wrong making" only cements people in their positions.

They don't live in a reality that causes them to question what they are being told.

In other words, I would be willing to bet that he seldom (if ever) sees or interacts with immigrants.

As for the Clintons, I don't know what to say. "Fake news" is such a dead giveaway of someone who has been programmed.

[sharedvalues]

44. I find focusing on propaganda works

Tell them that Fox and Limbaugh lie to get votes for billionaires.
And if they believe Fox they are great big suckers.

It seems like it wouldn’t work. But it does. A lot of people are just so far in a disinformation bubble they need to hear the real truth.

[MountCleaners]

20. I think they're just really unhappy people

And don't know how to be happy. My experience when talking with Republicans is that they are so bitter and negative, and that's probably for personal reasons, but they're not people who are used to self-examination. They look outside of themselves and blame other people for their unhappiness. Every time you talk to them, it's all about how this group or that group are ruining everything. They're not exactly a pleasure to be around. Would you be if you were suspicious of everyone?

They need a "bad guy" to explain everything, so they blame Hillary or immigrants or POC.

[Demsrule86]

21. This is why...when Sen. Sanders talks about reaching out to Trump supporters I shrug...they

are haters through and through...don't bother. I could not stomach a friend like that.

[BlueJac]

22. You have a stronger stomach than I do!

Talking to people like that is a waste of time and effort!

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

30. Gave up trying years ago... would have an easier time toilet training your cat. (Yes, I tried!)

[sharedvalues]

45. Not true. Engage on propaganda. Fox lies, suckers watch

[no_hypocrisy]

23. Your friend is why American military brought German citizens to tour the concentration

camps after the war, to let them see the horror and the misery. With the victims still fighting to stay alive.

So the Germans couldn't later claim the tales of the camps were "fake news".

[Corvo Bianco]

24. They're extremely fragile and it manifests in their

Self destructive compulsion to hate women and minorities. Their indignation is all they have.

[SammyWinstonJack]

25. Happily willfully ignorant.

[HopeAgain]

29. Fear of immigrants and powerful women

That simple...mysogyny and bigotry.

[Locrian]

31. you argued facts...

when in reality people hold beliefs based on feelings.

The only way to get through to them is from the inside - not as an "outsider".
You got closer since he was a friend - vs just being attacked and dismissed.

But I imagine any "facts" you send him will bounce right off.

If you want a pretty good book to understand the psyc behind him - this book may help:


The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion Paperback – February 12, 2013
by Jonathan Haidt

[Mr. Ected]

32. There has to be one massive disconnect for them to believe their "facts"

When the actual facts can be verified and ultimately manifest in reality.

Meanwhile, every one of their trips down the rabbit hole lead to a dead end. Benghazi. Her emails. Whitewater. Birth certificate. And on. And on. And on. And on.

Their "facts" are seldom if ever born out.

At some point, how is it that they don't realize that?

The funny thing is, when TRUTH is revealed to them, and it counters their alternative reality, they diverge into the unfairness and inequity of what they've just seen. Things are either fake or unfair in their world.

How can that be sustained?

[Oneironaut]

34. Im horrified to admit I see the same delusion in Trumpsters as in Flat Earthers and Shooting Truth

-ers. Their immediate response to anything that challenges their beliefs is, “That’s fake!” Everything is a conspiracy (mostly by George Soros and the Clintons), and anything the challenges their beliefs is a result of those conspirators.

There are tens of millions of people like this. They worship Trump like he’s the emperor, and would probably cancel the 2020 elections if they could. They would even justify murder if Trump told them to do it. They’re authoritarians.

[poboy2]

35. You've heard of 'biosphere' and 'biosphere 2' right? Completely independent

self-sustaining alternate environment. Their world is now an alternate reality. There world should be called Blabosphere.
In this constructed right wing Blabosphere is a world of completely arbitrary rules, facts are optional. A world that demands and encourages tribalism and hatred.

know-nothings, and proud of it. In fact they know nothing and insist they know more than anyone else. They will destroy us all if not stopped.

[sharedvalues]

46. We can help stop them. Engage on propaganda.

Who’s going to stop them if not the rest of us, one Fox viewer at a time?

We all need to do our part to break the right wing propaganda bubble.

[lkinwi]

48. It is definitely tribalism.

Before I could whip out my iPad, Republican family members argued Fox News talking points and didn’t believe a thing that I said. Now that I can back up my arguments, they refuse to discuss politics with me. No facts, just tribalism.

[Javaman]

49. can't fix stupid. and the willful kind is worse.

unless the news is spewed by faux news all other sources are fake.

not worth the time nor spit to convince the "unconvincible" of reality based life

[MichMary]

50. Is his friendship important to you?

If so, talk about something else--the NCAA tourney, UFOs spotted by military people, chldren/grandchildren, weather, good movies you have seen, lawncare, vacations, etc.

If it isn't important, dump him.

You aren't going to change his mind, and will probably only make him more set in his ways. And appear to be a genuine asshole.

Let it go.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

52. If you start from the premise it's virtually impossible to convince someone to leave a cult....

If you start from the premise it's virtually impossible to convince someone to leave a cult it all makes sense.

[PatrickforO]

53. FAIRNESS DOCTRINE

We need the Fairness Doctrine back. The snake Reagan allowed it to die in 1987, and we need it back NOW.

[Ferrets are Cool]

54. People here tend to UNDERESTIMATE the hatred for

the Clinton's that many Americans harbor. A lot of us, me included, don't go to those "other" sites so we are insulated from the amount of vile is spewed upon them. In my area, I see more "I Hate Hillary" bumper stickers than ones supporting the PGIC. I am not at all surprised by the response from your friend.

[AJT]

55. It all started at the well planned end of the Fairness Doctrine.

The birth of rightwing propaganda radio in the 80s was the beginning of the end.

[HAB911]

56. Exactly why I refuse to speak to 5 old friends

it's useless

[3catwoman3]

58. Id be willing to bet that...

...most Americans have no idea that impeached only means tried, not convicted. The level of civic ignorance in this country is embarrassing.

[Hassler]

59. Too late now, but don't waste your time...

These same morons were with W until he crashed the economy. Now they never heard of W. Same will play out with PT Barnmanure. Only when it all crashes down ON THEM will they move onto the next Con grifter.

[RandomAccess]

60. All I can say is --