What's with the sudden spate of "Leave Trump supporters ALONE!" OP and posts?

[EffieBlack]

We've had this sentiment on DU for many months. But there's been a proliferation in recent days of OPs and responses pushing this demand for sympathy and understanding for Trump supporters and outright attacking fellow Democrats who are reticent to embrace them.

What's up with that?

[TexasProgresive]

1. I haven't seen them- can you link?

[lunamagica]

7. Not the OP. But here

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=10360434

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=10367773

[Squinch]

2. I've noticed this too. And there's a resurgence of the "there's millions of Obama

voters who switched to Trump" even though there is no data that supports that. The data much more easily supports the idea Obama voters stayed home and previous non-voters came out to vote for Trump.

(To whomever is going to say, "Yes there is data!" and then give a link to the Sabato article or the NYT opinion piece that is based on the Sabato article, follow down all the links in those pieces and see if you can find the underlying study they say they are basing their argument on. You may have better luck than I, but I have never been able to find that underlying study.)

[The Polack MSgt]

4. Several out there.

here is one I was ranting on...
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210360434

[Squinch]

9. Did you mean to respond to Texas Progressive?

[The Polack MSgt]

13. Yes.

Sorry, I'm a bit fuzzy today - Vicodin for my back...

[Squinch]

15. Oh, no! Back pain is the worst. Disk?

[The Polack MSgt]

21. Tore a muxcle a few weeks back

Which led me to walk and sit differently - which leads to locked/cramped lower back sometimes...

So I did something while asleep that caused me to seize up - so Vicodin and diazepam for breakfast and heat until it unlockThnk goodness for spell check, my spelling seems to be easily buzzed

[Squinch]

22. I know it sounds like the last thing you want to do, but try cold instead.

Likely everything is very swollen in there, and the structures pressing against nerves is what is causing the pain. If you can bring down the swelling, you might get some relief.

I had a disk pressing on a trunk nerve for a while. Everyone always said heat after the first 72 hours, but it wasn't till I started icing it and getting down the internal swelling that things started to turn around.

[The Polack MSgt]

24. Thanks for the tip

I'll try it.

Appreciate the concern

[Squinch]

25. Good luck. It is the worst. Also, move every twenty minutes or so as much as you can without pain.

[thucythucy]

70. You might also want to see a good physical therapist.

I've had back problems for years, and nothing works as well as doing my PT on a regular basis.

Of course, you probably shouldn't start PT until you've healed some. But a good PT will also know if and when physical therapy is appropriate.

Best of luck,

[EffieBlack]

8. Or Obama voters had their votes suppressed

The fact that Obama got a certain number of votes in a precinct in 2012 and Hillary got fewer votes and Trump got more in that same precinct does not mean that the people who voted for Obama in 2012 switched over and voted for Trump in 2016.

Bullshit argument designed to provide cover for Trump voters - akin to “some of my best friends are black so I can’t be racist” claim.

[dansolo]

100. Don't forget the sexist voters

I can believe there were plenty of voters who voted for Obama, but who refused to vote for Hillary. Some of them probably did vote for Trump.

[Gothmog]

117. There were real efforts made to keep Obama voters from voting and to get them to stay home

[Gothmog]

116. Obama voters tended to stay home and few switched to trump

[Bradshaw3]

132. Here are two non-Sabato links showing the millions of Obama-trump voters

You should have looked a little harder. Not that will do any good but here it is:
http://www.centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/articles/just-how-many-obama-2012-trump-2016-voters-were-there/

Sabato's study is mentioned but so are two others. In one study the estimate is more than 8 million and another is 6.7 million. You trash the New York Times and Sabato but both the author and Sabato are respected (going on Fox doesn't prove him wrong, anymore than unsupported claims.

Even if these numbers are off by a million or tow it still means that there are MILLIONS of such voters. I understand it doesnt fit in with the preconceived notions of some on here but it is a fact. And downturn in Dem voters doesn't exlain the phenomenom. Maybe people have forgoten but Clinton lost by 78,000 votes in three key states. When an eection is that close it is just dumb to ignore that fact, no matter how much it hurts to hear it.

[stevenleser]

134. Ive seen those studies. The numbers dont add up. There is something clearly very wrong with them

Both of them. By Sabatos own admission, even the lower figure results in a few million more votes than Obama actually received.

With those kinds of errors I don’t think you can make any conclusions based on those studies.

[Bradshaw3]

152. Any facts to back up that claim?

You simply post an opinion as fact. Do you have degrees in statistics, done election data work? Or just stating an opinion and treating it as fact?

8 million and 6 million are huge numbers, especially in an election that came down to 78,000 votes. This isn't that hard to understand, if one has an open mind.

It's sort of amazing to me that discussing something that is accepted among political scientists is dismissed here because, well, people don't like it's conclusion. Isn't what they do when you go on Faux News?

And one poster here says Sabato's research is invalid just because he has gone on Faux News. Do you agree with that?

[stevenleser]

153. Yes, this has been talked about before and linked before.

http://www.centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/articles/just-how-many-obama-2012-trump-2016-voters-were-there/

However, there’s an important caveat: self-reported past voting behavior has limited value. Voters do not always accurately recall the past. Academic research has found that a number of different factors can explain these discrepancies. Bias toward current political preferences can affect responses, as can simple forgetfulness — as much as it may surprise hardcore politicos, many Americans don’t necessarily remember their voter information with precision.
.
.
.

However, as we pointed out above, there are reasons to be skeptical of reported past vote. Overall, 58% of respondents to the 2016 ANES who said they voted in 2012 (including those who didn’t vote in 2016) claimed to have voted for Obama, seven points more than the 51% Obama actually won in 2012.
-------------------------------------------------------
The other study had similar issues.

[Bradshaw3]

156. That was included in the link I posted and doesn't change the point

Taking that one bit out of context doesn't change their overall opinions that there were millions of Obama/trump voters. They included a caveat which researchers almost always include in their studies. You seem to think that because the numbers aren't exact or are even off by one or two million that that invalidates any conclusion - it doesn't.

The numbers aren't exact but the point stands: the number of Obama/trump voters in an election that turned on 78,000 votes is extremely important when planning future election strategies.

I'll stand with the researchers who do this for a living.

[stevenleser]

157. You should keep reading it until you understand what is written

This is a study whose numbers don’t add up. It’s that simple.

[Bradshaw3]

160. So says someone who admits they are not an expert in statistics

They are experts in this area and you are not. It is that simple.

[Bradshaw3]

161. Here is the salient quote for you

from the ANES study:
Overall, if we estimate the raw totals using these percentages while working off of Trump’s nearly 63 million votes and Clinton’s almost 66 million votes, the ANES data suggest that about 8.4 million 2012 Obama voters backed Trump in 2016 and 2.5 million Romney voters supported Clinton.[1]

To repeat once again, even with the caveat that these are best guess estimates, that still translates to MILLIONS of Obama/trump voters. Even if they are off by 50 percent that means four million voters. That is not insignificant as you and other deniers are trying to imply. Nor does it mean the research is worthless as you have said. That is the point and it is not rocket science. It can be understood, unless someone is determined not to.

[Squinch]

145. "Even if these numbers are off by a million or two." OK, then.

[Bradshaw3]

151. That still leaves MILLIONS of voters who voted for Obama, then drumpf

As I expected, no reply to statiscally-based studies you claim are invalid because ...???

You have repeatedly disparaged these numbers and when challenged this is the best you can come up with?

Control of the Virginia legislature came down to ONE vote. It just amazes me that people on a Democratic forum don't understand how elections work.

[stevenleser]

154. Not really. If there are problems with the data, any conclusion is dubious. nt

[Bradshaw3]

155. But you haven't shown any problems with the data

Just your personal opinions. Now that is dubious when it comes to a discussion on the subject.

Of course you didn't answer my other questions. I understand many things now.

[stevenleser]

158. The article itself cites the problems with the data quite plainly

You should reread it until you understand it

[Bradshaw3]

159. I would offer you the same advice

Obviously you don't understand scientific data or research. I worked for many years at a science research center. Your point of view seems to be that the caveat completely invalidates the numbers they quote. It doesn't.

[2left4u]

136. Read this report

This report is very illuminating on a lot

https://www.voterstudygroup.org/publications/2016-elections/race-religion-immigration-2016

[Squinch]

144. It is very illuminating. It shows that Trump voters did not vote for him for all

the reasons our "adopt a trumper" friends always tell us they did.

It says they were not influenced by concerns about trade. It shows they were LESS concerned about economic issues and social issues in 2016 than in 2012.

The reason for the trump vote is summarized here:

What stands out most, however, is the attitudes that became more strongly related to the vote in 2016: attitudes about immigration, feelings toward black people, and feelings toward Muslims.

So what we have been saying all along is supported by this study: the trump vote was a vote for racism. Which means that the choice between the trump voter and our party's base, i.e., women and people of color, IS in fact an "either/or" choice. We can't appeal to one without alienating the other. Our choice is whether we concentrate on GOTV among people of color and women, or we appeal to the "disaffected trump voter," i.e, the racist.

I know where my efforts will go.

[2left4u]

148. Adopt a Trump voter?

It also shows the numbers that voted for Obama and switched, based off immigration, distrust of Muslims and lastly attitude towards people of color (curiously after having voted for one twice)...the GOP is pushing an agenda that is pulling the ignorant to their side, re-educating past supporters of ours.

It isn't about picking one group or side over another that's being racist. It's about fixing the problem not perpetuating it.
We are a party of inclusion not exclusion and those thst voted for Obama were also those dissatisfied with their vote presently.
True racists would never have voted (twice) for Obama.

You defeat racisn by changing the hearts and minds of the ignorant, not perpetuating the ignorance or assigning more importantance to a side based off skin color.

[Squinch]

149. I'm talking about winning Democratic elections. The republicans won those people by appealing

to their racism and their sexism. By vilifying those who form the backbone of our party.

You don't win over the backbone of the party by catering to those who have vilified them.

If those people finally come to understand what is beating them over the head, namely they are chumps and useful idiots for rich republicans, then so be it. I suspect there are many who will do that. But our efforts should go where they will have much big results than a kumbaya moment with former trump voters: to the backbone of our party.

It worked in Alabama. It'll work nationally.

[2left4u]

150. ?

I see your point and agree we need to win. How we win speaks to the soul of our party and what we are all about.

We have more than enough resources to knock on both doors. Break down the numbers in the Electoral college we lost (since we won the popular vote by a large margin) and you'll see that outreach to BOTH not one over another is the path..we lost the Electoral college mind you because WE didn't turn out and LOST voters.

We need to fix both not cater to one or the other.
Since our msg resonated on the popular vote, working for all voters is what our msg was and where party stands ethically; it is smart math.

It's ironic that the logic of reaching out to one group at the expense of another (or to punish another) is even an option for a progressive party.

If votes are colorless, you gain votes off of solving problems that effect everyone (making the nation better), not pitching race or trying to prove we support one more than another so vote for us.
THAT IS WHAT THE GOP DOES

[MineralMan]

3. I don't know, but it sure is annoying.

If some Trump voters want to switch to voting for Democrats, I'll say thanks, after the fact. However, if they were stupid enough to vote for Trump, I'm not going to bother with talking to them before the election. Waste of time - talking to stupid people, really.

[Wellstone ruled]

14. So true.

You can not fix the Stupid.

[dalton99a]

16. +1. If they are sincere and want change, vote for a different party in November

How hard is that? Geeez

[mcar]

36. I'm happy to welcome their vote, after the fact

as you said.

[thbobby]

52. Don't argue with idiots

I have believed this all my life. Reasoning with trump voters is a lost cause. It is similar to talking to a bible-thumper about religious hypocrisy. They either respond in anger or their eyes glaze up while they retreat into their safe zone of denial and ignorance.

In short, screw trump voters. They are a lost cause.

[keithbvadu2]

55. Evangelicals for Trump

?resize=700x700

[mitch96]

56. "Don't argue with idiots"

How does that saying go? Don't argue with idiots cause they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience... Always cracked me up..
When I hear people going with idiot responses I just walk away. No changing stupid.
m

[DonaldsRump]

5. Before January 20, 2017, I would have disagreed with you.

On March 17, 2018 (Happy St. Patrick's Day!!!!!), I totally agree.

ANYONE who still supports Trump after all this is effectively a lost cause. No amount of talking, being nice, etc will possibly change their minds.

The things that will help are GOTV, contributing time and sweat equity to all candidates (local, state, federal), running yourself, boycotting things like establishments that play Fox News etc.

I never thought I would be saying this, but it is not worth the effort to talk with these folks when there are so many other things that we all (most especially myself) can be doing. I cannot compete with the Fox News propaganda that these people devour. I can do the other things that have a much greater chance of making a difference.

There has NEVER been a clearer choice in an American politics...EVER.

[sharedvalues]

32. No. Propaganda works. Many are propagandized

There are two kinds of GOP base voters: the propagandized and the deplorables.

Many of them live in a Fox and Limbaugh lie bubble. It is our job to show them that Fox and Limbaugh lie to them them to shaft them - to screw them while helping billionaires. That is our mission with GOP voters: education about propaganda.


And GOTV is equally important. We can do both.

[rusty fender]

62. LOL!

You’ll get the same results talking to a wall

[sharedvalues]

87. Fox News lies... to get votes for billionaires

Try it. T works. No one likes to be exposed as a sucker..

[rusty fender]

89. So youre still

not going to change their minds. If you could wash out their brains you might have a chance; you’re still going to be talking to a wall.

[sharedvalues]

90. It works, I promise. Slowly. But it works.

No one likes being a sucker. And when they realize they got suckered by GOP billionaires they get angry.


It’s like a cult member. The way to reprogram cultists is to give them new information showing how the cult takes advantage of them, and showing the lies of the cult leader. It doesn’t work 100% of the time, but it does work.

[rusty fender]

91. Please proceed...

I’m not going to waste my time on racist homophobes

[sharedvalues]

93. Ok. Agreed, two types: propagandized and deplorables

We can reach the propagandized (20ish% of Americans) . Not sure we can reach the true hardcore racist homophobes (5%).

[EffieBlack]

94. Where did you get these numbers?

Because if 40% of peoplevare STILL supporting Trump today, they are deplorable, period.

[bettyellen]

81. I think white male Dems should be walking the walk all day w outreach to everyone.

Last edited Sat Mar 17, 2018, 11:10 PM - Edit history (1)

That they come across in real life. Women and POC have been carrying the torch and doing the bulk of the outreach and these voters can’t relate to us. Men need to pull their weight.

But online is a waste of time. Those people are too indoctrinated. One on one conversations with people in their own community can provide some breakthroughs. But don’t expect POC and women to be throwing themselves into the belly of the beast that hates them and denigrates them constantly. It’s offensive and a fools errand.

[sharedvalues]

88. Im a man and I get that we need to step up

Totally agree with you. Dem men have been coasting for too long while minorities and immigrants and women ha e been getting screwed by the GOP. I marched in the women’s march and will stand up for American values. Men are part of the Dem coalition and will be part of this resistance.

[bettyellen]

97. Thank you! Its been disappointing how many liberal dudes I know still think Trump is a joke-

And it’s not really funny if you’re a woman, same for my immigrant friends and POC. It absolutely sucks for us and a lot of guys aren’t listening or paying attention to how serious it is. So, a million thanks!

[Bettie]

110. I've stopped beating my head against that particular wall

it hasn't worked for the last 20 years or so...in fact, it has gotten worse.

Once they chose AgentOrange, I realized that it is futile. They will vote for anyone who stokes their hatred of "the other" whoever that is to the particular person. Nothing else matters.

I'm related to a lot of these people and trying to convince them that their...what was the phrase? "God Emperor" has no clothes is a waste of time and energy.

I've backed away from many people since the election for my own mental health.

[sharedvalues]

111. Dont give up. The best resistance is positive persistence.

Take care of your own health and happiness. But persist and resist where you can! Don’t give up. The Democrats and America are winning.

[Bettie]

112. We're winning at this point

for two reasons: people who never paid attention are starting to realize what that has brought us to and that the small number of Trump voters who weren't all in for the guy but just didn't want to vote for "that woman" (25/30 years of propaganda, no fault of her own, but it was there) are now realizing what a mistake they made.

But for the hard-core Trump lovers? There is no hope. Not really.

[sharedvalues]

114. Yes! And luckily this is a Dem majority country

If the deplorables were a majority, as in Hungary or Russia, we would have a SERIOUS problem on our hands.

But here, real Americans are a majority and we just need to increase voter turnout. Easily possible. The hard part is keeping up that turnout in 2020-2024.

[sharedvalues]

128. +100

You have put your finger on the exact issues. And I too am feeling optimistic. Still we must organize, register, and vote. GOTV.

[Eliot Rosewater]

6. Yep, not sure what to do anymore. When I try and point it out, oops...LOL

I think we need to go to the streets.

[dalton99a]

10. Frankly I don't see how Democrats can win anything without sending missionaries on bicycles

to plead their case to the Trump worshippers - maybe flowers and candy - on bended knees



Fuck that shit.

GOTV!

[Squinch]

96. NO! Not bended knees! They HATE bended knees!

[liberalmuse]

11. Not surprised.

I literally have thousands of trolls, bots and Trump supporters blocked on Twitter. To put it crudely, a lot of the aforementioned use the internet like a toilet. And they don’t wipe. They especially like to squat and drop in front of liberals.

[Doodley]

12. I will talk to them, but I have zero tolerance for two thing: Trump's bigotry and

taking away healthcare and safety nets, and I tell them that.

[sharedvalues]

31. Exactly. Good for you. Dont stand for propaganda either

Have zero tolerance too for the lies of Fox and Limbaugh.

[Me.]

17. I'd Say It's As Obvious As The Reason For McCabe's Firing

[dalton99a]

18. No kidding

[Binkie The Clown]

19. Putin's brigade hard at work. nt

[workinclasszero]

28. Bingo

And don't think for a minute that DU doesn't have Russian trolls working this board.

They crashed the whole thing on election night as well folks, remember?

[pandr32]

43. I remember

...and it chilled me to the bone. I knew something terrible was up and the hackers did not want DU members to post to alert others about anything they saw regarding the stealing of the election.

[workinclasszero]

48. Me too

Took a long time to get back to normal around here.

[Squinch]

129. I think so. Effie is right that there are a lot of threads and posts like that, but there aren't

that many posting them. Just a few, all of them fairly new and very, er, energetic.

[question everything]

20. Some of us think that the first, and only goal is to take control of Congress

and to at least clip Trump's wings.

The only way to do this is to make inroads in Trump country.

Offending them and belittling them will do the opposite.

But, I suppose, one can always prefer to stay "true to principles" and lose every office.

Look at the Republican party in California in the 90s to mold your wishes.

[Squinch]

23. Lose every office? You mean like in Alabama? GOTV is the answer.

[EffieBlack]

26. You mean like in Alabama, where black Democratic women, not Trump supporters, made the difference?

I call bullshit on “if we don’t kiss Trump supporters asses, we can’t win nothin’” argument.

We’ll take back the House and Senate by mobilizing our base, made up largely of black and brown people who have remained loyal to Democrats and who we don’t have to worry about what they’re REALLY going to do once they’re alone in the voting booth.

[melman]

45. "I call bullshit on if we dont kiss Trump supporters asses, we cant win nothin argument"

Easy to do when you are the one inventing that argument. Nobody has said any such thing.

[Squinch]

58. Is this another one of those posts like where you tell the poster that it's too hard

for you to read bold print?

It may be hard for you to see those "we must kiss Trumper ass" threads, but they're out there. A few today so far.

[emulatorloo]

95. So very defensive

First you were defensive when folks correctly criticized Bernie or Busters. Now you are defensive when people criticize Trump voters.

Since you are neither a Buster or
A Trump voter, you have no need to be defensive when those groups are justifiably criticized here.

[sharedvalues]

29. Inroads yes. Persuade them.

Remember that 98% of conservative talking points are lies designed to get votes for billionaires. GOP base voters are all deeply propagandized. It is possible to persuade them. First: tell them that fox and Limbaugh lie to them to get votes for billionaires.

[mcar]

37. Sorry, but no

I would rather use my time helping to register new Democrats and encouraging GOTV efforts rather than trying to "convince" those voters to vote for their own best interests, for a change.

If they haven't figured it out by now, I don't think they are salvageable.

[sharedvalues]

40. Americans together must do both.

But Individuals can do one or the other. I respect you for focusing on GOTV. Keep it up. (But do tell GOP voters about the propaganda designed to screw them if you have an opportunity

[EffieBlack]

98. Wow! Great idea!

I wonder why it's never occurred to us to just tell them that Fox and Limbaugh are lying to them - especially considering how likely they are to listen to whatever a Democrat tells them about their icons.

[sharedvalues]

99. We often argue issues. We should argue propaganda.

Going after the propaganda is more important that going after the issue of the day.

With the GOP base, don’t talk about the president. Talk about the propaganda and WHY billionaires built a right wing propaganda machine- to sucker the working class into voting for tax cuts for billionaires.

[The Polack MSgt]

30. almost 40% of eligable voters stay home.

Thinking that here is no difference between parties. These people are the targets we must reach. Anyone who decided that the Cheeto Chancre was good enough to vote for can choke down a bucket ass sweat as far as I'm concerned

we need to oppose the Trump Party and be SEEN as opposed to them as well.

[workinclasszero]

38. How do you figure that?

Hillary actually won the popular vote by like 3 MILLION votes or so!

The only reason that Russian mole is in the white house is because of the damned electoral college.

And that, thank God, has no bearing on the midterm elections in the fall!

We are going to destroy the f**king republicans in the fall. If any wised up deplorables want to join us in that holy endeavor I welcome them, BUT....

We do not have to cater to them at all or try to dilute the democratic message to accommodate them in the least!

[sharedvalues]

27. +1

There are two kinds of GOP base voters:
1. The propagandized by Fox and Limbaugh who actually buy the billionaires’ bullshit because they live in a media bubble.
2. The deplorable hardcore racists, xenophobia, and gun violence nuts.


We should reach out and educate the first group. And the second group we should beat at the polls and in the court of public opinion.

[krispos42]

33. I think the general idea was to avoid pushing them deeper into the bubble

They're reflexively against Democrats; if you keep badgering them they will harden themselves against you but if you let them keep their defenses down the ambient shitstorm will seep in and quietly change their attitude. By not making them defend themselves daily (hourly?), by letting long periods of time pass between attacks, when they do have to reorganized their thoughts to form a defense all the new information and attitudes that have been percolating in their noggins will change how they view things, to drain their reflexive support and dismissal. By giving them a longer time period between rallying their defenses, it gives a longer perspective on the events of the past week/month/year/term.



FWIW; YMMV

[leftstreet]

44. +1

Excellent post

[sprinkleeninow]

53. I third that. 👍

[LAS14]

73. Well stated. Well thought out!

I think there are reasons to avoid all or nothing thinking besides wishing we could change minds. But you do make a good case for what has to happen if ANY minds are to be changed.

[Demit]

85. I'm puzzled about who you're directing this advice to. Who has suggested badgering

Trump supporters, or making them defend themselves? If anything, people are saying it's not worth the effort to even engage with Trump supporters.

Personally, I don't see the process whereby the kind of people who were drawn to Trump in the first place are open to new information. If—IF—a change is percolating in their brains it will happen without anyone's intervention. In fact, because their support for Trump is reflexive, it's utterly immune to logic.

If they ever are going to see the light, it has to dawn on them, in their own brains, all by themselves.

[krispos42]

109. You might want to ask the OPer that.

Speaking from personal experience, things at my workplace got political during the 2016 election. I work in an industry that tends to be full of older white men... machine shop, and nearly everybody there is a white male, particularly among the machinists.

Now, discussion of politics was sharply reduced after the election as people focused on other things, so now when it does some up, when a person is brought back to the topic after not having to reflexively done "stigginit" or without the bright orange light of Fanta Menace screwing things up, the brain re-forms thoughts differently. The reflex to support Stable Genius has faded and weakened because it wasn't being reinforced by daily use.

Trust me, nobody is singing Donny Two Scoops' praises at work anymore.

[Demit]

118. I'm not seeing where the OP suggested badgering people.

If you were badgering Trump supporters at your workplace and then stopped, then good for you.

If your coworkers appear to have changed their minds, then good for them.

I believe EffieBlack was talking about Trump supporters who have not changed their minds, and how reaching out to them with sympathy and understanding is an exercise in futility. She is saying just let those people be, who still love their racist, bigoted, misogynistic liar of a president. They are unreachable. But letting them be doesn't mean we have to somehow soft-pedal our abhorrence to racism, bigotry, and misogyny, so as not to hurt their feelings. That's a bridge too far.

[krispos42]

123. The OPer didn't, but was talking about the opposite

Not that I'm saying "badger", that's your term, but I think some people want to do to trumpster-fire voters what they (the Fanta Menace voters) did in the aftermath of the election and the first few months of 2017: rub in their faces, hard. You know, "Fuck Your Feelings".

There was political debate during the election season; for various reasons it's been turned way down.

I had a thought about why doing reverse "stigginit" might not be the best strategy going forward and I shared it. Now, I don't have any information or an opinion about a "recent spate" trend, but I wanted to comment on the general idea of taking away something for them (voters of D2S) to focus and harden their opposition.

[Demit]

125. You used the word "badgering" in your post #33. That's where I got it from.

Just for the record.

I don't know how many DUers are advocating for rubbing anything in Trump voters' faces. Are they? I don't think so. Anyway, rubbing what in their faces, the fact that the guy they voted for is turning everything to shit? If you're talking about personal interactions, in a situation like a workplace, for example, I don't know how the conversation would go exactly—cordially, I hope—but I don't think it would be at all out of line to say a cordial "I told you so."

If a Trump voter were to consider that the equivalent of "fuck your feelings," well, if they're that snowflakey, then fuck their feelings, LOL.

[NurseJackie]

34. I know!! Weird! Trump voters/supporters don't need to be defended. They don't...

... they don't need to be coddled or babied. Trump voters don't come to DU in order to receive validation or to be persuaded.

Face it... as much as WE love Democratic Underground, this is NOT the "go-to" destination for Trumpers (unless they're here with malicious intentions or to disrupt.)

Trumpers and Steiners (and other assorted Sarandonesque types) can all go fuck themselves. (And I mean that in the nicest way possible.)

[Docreed2003]

39. But...but...

Surely if we kiss their ass and pander to their little racists hearts they will surely come to their senses and vote of our people...right?? Right? Lol

[workinclasszero]

41. Yeah F that shit!

They cast a vote for racism and hate. The deplorables can get on their knees and beg democrats for forgiveness before I even acknowledge their damn existence!

And F trying to sympathize with their KKK/Nazi white power leanings!

[Docreed2003]

50. Exactly...

Right their with you...I have ZERO fucks to give for these racists fucks...I’m sure as hell not going to kiss their ass in an attempt to make them see the error of their ways.

[NurseJackie]

47. I know! Right? ---- I must say...

... I sincerely question the motives of those who keep posting variations on the "Hug-a-Deplorable" theme. Based on the responses and push-back that those types of threads inevitably receive, I wonder if the actual intention is to be disruptive rather than to give comfort and respect to the Trump voters/supporters.

The whole thing is so bizarre. I mean... it's not like this is the JPR website (I'd literally EXPECT to see threads like that over there.)

[Docreed2003]

49. Yeah I think disruption is the major motivation

I don’t have an issue with trying to understand why some of these people were motivated to vote the way they did, but I damn sure won’t stand by and kiss their ass and beg them to turn to our side.

[Squinch]

63. It's like a slot machine. Catering to conservatives didn't work when they elected Nixon,

it didn't work when they elected Reagan, it didn't work when they elected either Bush or the current republican president. So it's all pent up in that election machine there. This time it HAS to work! This time I'm SURE we'll win that "conservative voters see the light and vote for Democrats" jackpot!

[mcar]

35. Goes along with the spate of anti-Dem leader posts we've seen this week

I think Lamb's win has unsettled some folks.

[dalton99a]

64. +1

[treestar]

42. Divisiveness

Bernie support Too as Bernie was seen as being able to win these people of the DNC had not stolen the nomination from him.

[Stinky The Clown]

46. I think there are some sincere posters mixed with the Boys from St. Pete.

And of course, we aren't allowed to point that out with specificity.

[sandensea]

51. It's safe to say there's a lot of this involved:

[jalan48]

54. Why the constant need to focus on the supporters and not the leaders?

Let’s stop worrying about those with no real power and go after the ones that have it,

[MaryMagdaline]

57. They gleefully rubbed it in my face when they won

Enjoyed seeing me suffer; laughed at my liberal tears; cheared when trump jumped on defenseless immigrants; snickered when he cut Obamacare; remained silent when CHIPS expired; looked away when he cut clean air and water regulations; gave thumbs up when he stole trillions from the Treasury to put a few thousand bucks in their pockets ...
I think the words I am searching for are FUCK OFF.

[deurbano]

69. One of my husband's FB "friends" posted a message of gung-ho support for a nutcase on a motorcycle

who drove into protestors in SF who were trying to preserve Obamacare and stave off cuts to Medicare and Medicaid. Even when informed those protestors included our daughter (who uses a wheelchair) and that the protest was conducted with the cooperation of police, it made no difference. There was no common humanity to appeal to. They are the absolute dregs, and I think they know it. They revel in it.

[MaryMagdaline]

77. I totally agree. And so sorry your daughter was placed in danger

[Ms. Toad]

59. I suspect largely a response to the flood of "All Trump Supporters are Racist" threads.

Plus the PA-18 results, which would not have been possible - even with the hard work, smart campaigning, and intensive GOTV effort, without converting some Trump voters into Lamb voters.

One of the things that race demonstrates is that it is just plain stupid to intentionally alienate Trump voters just for the sake of a few quick jollies.

[EffieBlack]

76. You don't seem to understand the difference between a Trump voter and a Trump supporter

Lamb didn't campaigned to former Trump voters but left Trump supporters alone.

[Ms. Toad]

83. Largely because the people doing the wholesale slamming

are not making distinctions.

https://upload.democraticunderground.com/10029910059
https://www.democraticunderground.com/10028939957
https://www.democraticunderground.com/10028940161

If it feels like a broad-brush slam, it will alienate both.

It is political suicide to have some fun smacking trump supporters around if the consequence is alienating trump voters we need to convert.

[Gothmog]

120. The studies cited in two of these threads are well done

[LAS14]

122. Thanks, Ms. Toad, for sticking to it and making the point. nt

[debsy]

60. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who voted for dumpster deserves nothing but contempt and ridicule...

The act of voting for him was ignorant, selfish, boorish, and - yes - deplorable. I have no sympathy for nor understanding of anyone who obviously has none of either themselves.

[2left4u]

61. FUCK THAT

I don't recall them being so concerned about all the Obama supporters that they harassed or belittled and marginalized.


Kinda of hypocritical

[Flaleftist]

135. Agreed. They deserve nothing but derision. nt

[McCamy Taylor]

65. Solidarity with working class paid online posters?

Just because they live in i another country and work for less than minimum wage meddling in the politics of another country does not mean that they are not part of the class struggle.

Workers of the world unite!

[dalton99a]

68. I'd buy them a beer if they stopped trying to destroy us

[Initech]

66. I'm not! Fuck 'em!

They knew damn well what they were doing when they voted for that monster! They deserve all the shit they get!

[billh58]

67. Simple,

trolls and bots...

[LexVegas]

71. Good fuckin' question. nt

[democratisphere]

72. deplorables need their asses kicked verbally at a minimum.

No forgiveness.

[the_sly_pig]

74. Fump and his supporters.

eom.

[spanone]

75. FUCK. THEM.

[loyalsister]

78. Other, unfortunately valid question

When and how did liberals become so juvenile? When did they adopt the demonizing, stereotyping, hate filled mentality we criticized Trump and some of his supporters for during his campaign?

Do people think promoting hatred for neighbors and families is a good idea because strident hatred has been effective?

Why don't people reject it out of moral consistency?

We know that the long standing stereotyping of people of color as criminals full of anger based on racist treatment is not reasonable to apply to all people of color. Most of us believe it is not fair to use stereotypes to generalize and exclude people based on high profile examples based on belonging to a group. Most of us also object to the stereotyping of liberal voters.

Turnabout does not legitimize hate.

[LAS14]

121. Three cheers!!! There was a time when I had clear pride in...

... the relative intelligence and moral clarity of liberals vs conservatives. But since Trump has aroused such unthinking vitriol it's no longer "clear." Mind you, I don't have any problem with the vitriol directed straight at Trump. But to lump "all Trump voters" into one category, because we "know" they are <blah> <blah> makes us sound to much like "them."

[loyalsister]

124. It's a losing strategy to attack voters

Trump and his administration and any other policy makers doing damage are fair game. Overgeneralizing and wishing harm to fellow citizens can only compound the damage republicans started doing with their hatred towards Obama. Someone needs to draw a line if we are ever to return to civil discourse.

[world wide wally]

79. We will never get 100% of the vote anyway, so sometimes it just makes us feel better to say

things like, "fuck you deplorable, racist idiots who don't know your ass from Donald Trumps ugly face"

I feel better now.

[JI7]

80. Some People are Upset at no longer being the Center of Attention

These are the same people who want to downplay the Russian hack and Comey email bs.

A lot of it is also related to the push for gun control which many of these types don't want.

Hillary got millions more votes by embracing diversity and on feminism.

And without the above mentioned things she would have won the election.

[Meowmee]

82. 🤔

Not sure but it’s more important to get people who vote dem out to vote and stop voter suppression etc and have secured, monitored elections. Anyone who changes their mind and apologizes and votes them out, good for them. The others are a lost cause. We’d be better off if they formed their own country, preferably on another continent or even better in another universe.

[backscatter712]

84. The last election was a test of Americans' character. Those that voted for Trump failed.

Before the election, we saw him agitate his supporters to violence against minorities and protesters. We saw him attack a Gold Star family because they disagreed with him politically. We saw the hot-mike moment where he bragged about sexually assaulting women.

Those that voted for Trump saw that too, and voted for him anyways.

I have no respect for Trump voters. Zero. They're fucking pieces of shit in my eyes.

All the social science I've seen says that the vast majority of Trump voters didn't vote their economic anxiety. They voted their bigotry. They voted to shit on the civil rights of their fellow human beings.

I don't want to hear about economic anxiety. I have economic anxiety too, but I did the right thing for my country and my fellow countrymen, and I wasn't stupid enough to be suckered by his bullshit.

The short version:

[dalton99a]

133. +1

[left-of-center2012]

86. Where are you hearing this?

"What's up with that?"

I suspect there's a pill for that.

[MyNameGoesHere]

92. Because trolls just don't live under bridges anymore.

They're mainstream and yes they're here.

[heaven05]

101. RW trolls

for the RESIDENTS of 1600. I just can't believe a progressive liberal could ask fellow liberals to give racist, sexist, misogynistic followers of the residents squatting in the WH a pass. I just can't If they are liberals suggesting we do this....
Also I always keep in mind white racism and bigotry is a cultural problem NOT a problem that is strictly a political one limited to one Party only.

[katmondoo]

102. Another blond beauty Repug defending traitor Trump on TV

Smacked the TV and turned it off. Now it's fine to fire anyone who doesn't live up to the traitor in chief's standards.

[LBM20]

103. Are you saying here in 2018 we should now just be attacking and alienating Dems who voted for Trump?

How does that help? We must understand that not everyone who voted for Trump is a "redneck racist asshole" and to simply write them off, or go even further and attack and belittle and alienate them when what we need to do is get them to vote for Democrats again is just ridiculous. We must understand that what goes into a voting decision is complex. Many voted for Trump out of anger and frustration with government and with their economic circumstances.

And what has happened is that we have just won an election in deep red PA, just the kind of place we need to win back, and did it by winning back many Trump voters.

[EffieBlack]

105. Big difference between attacking people and devoting a portion of the DU board to defending them

Especially considering how often focusing on outreach to minority voters is dismissed by some Democratic leaders and their families supporters as "identity politics."

[LBM20]

130. No one is "defending" them. It is about UNDERSTANDING why it happened. MILLIONS who voted for Obama

switched to Trump. So to labeling them all as "racist assholes", as some have done, is just plain wrong. What we are saying is that this is a big diverse country so we need a party with candidates tailored to the districts. We can not only be an urban coastal party. We need to be a small town and rural party too in the center of the country. Focusing on the economic issues with candidates who are more moderate to conservative on social issues is a formula for winning them back, as Conor Lamb did, and that is a GOOD thing. I would like to be a 50-state, 3200-county party and not the hollowed out party we are now. There is room for ALL of us, and we all agree on about 80% of the issues. Let's focus on what unites not stop these divisions.

[Tom Rinaldo]

104. Sympothy? Understanding?

Those are entirely voluntary psychological acts. The only type of understanding for any of them that I've seen argued for is understanding that they do not all represent votes out of reach to Democrats in upcoming elections. Of course that depends on how terms get defined. If by Trump supporters you mean any who voted for Trump in the last election, some of their votes can be won to elect Democrats who can then help us enact a progressive agenda of economic, racial, gender etc. justice. But no one should feel forced to sympathize with them. It's a sales pitch; "Democrats offer a better deal than the Republicans so vote Democratic." Businesses don't have to empathize with all their customers either, just close the deal on terms favorable to that business. Those with more of a social worker bent of mind can have at it if they want.

But if by Trump supporters you mean his hard core base who to this day are enthusiastically cheering him on, I agree with where you are coming from.

[EffieBlack]

106. This isn't like doing business by selling a coat to a racist

Reaching out to Trump supporters, people who are either racist or have proven comfortable aligning themselves as racist is insulting and painful to the people who are harmed b that racism.

And we know better than anyone that the reason many of those people deserted th Democratic Party is because of US - or at least because they resent how the party includes and responds to us. And the only way they can be convinced to return is for them to believe that our concerns are going to be made subordinate to theirs. So we're not feeling the "We must reach out to white Trump supporters" drive because we know that, in this situation, it IS a zero sum game.

[LAS14]

119. Well stated. I do think that it would save a lot of needless...

... back and forth here if we were careful to distinguish between "Trump voters" and "Trump's base." I'm happy to define "Trump's base" as those people who can be described in the awful ways "Trump voters" have been described in some threads.

[Codeine]

107. Not suspicious at all, is it?

The complete orchestration of posts is - I’m quite sure - merely coincidence and happenstance.

[EffieBlack]

108. Nothing to see here

[jcmaine72]

113. Trump supporters deserve no quarter, no compassion, and certainly no understanding.

If people really want help his "supporters" (i.e. hate-filled xenophobes, sexists and bigots. Best case scenario, naive imbeciles), they'd convince them not to vote in any more elections. They are obviously too stupid, angry, frightened and/or gullible to make intelligent decisions on their own. Do society a proper and persuade them to leave all the really important thinking to those with functioning brains.

BTW, any Democrat who voted for Trump is NOT a genuine Democrat.

[Gothmog]

115. These post ignore the base of the party

[Cary]

126. Radicals will be radicals

Radicals are subversive.

[DonCoquixote]

127. it is one thing

To open the door to people who sincerely, and this is the magic word, SINCERELY want to ask questions. Sadly , many do not questions until reality, aka facts. are dropped on them my life, such as the people who worked for a company and get dropped, or the people whose medical care gets cut.

However, let us admit one thing, for a while, we were so welcoming to people from the GOP that many democrats felt that these new people were like the stepchildren in a grimm's fairy tale, the ones that tried to kill the loyal children off. The pundit pages are full of these "democrats" whose main job is to get Democrats to abandon the new Deal, such as Peter George Peterson, Mark Penn and others. It is one thing to throw the centrists a line and invite them in for coffee. It is another to let them captain the ship, and if they want on board our boat, they need to realize they are part of a crew, a crew that yes includes people different from them. The reason why many in the back are not rowing as hard is that they get tired of the centre right smacking them on the head.

No, I am not going to deny that many on the far left did act like fools; frankly, since they claim to be leftists, they should have known better. The 2000 election should have proved that, and yes, those that stayed home or did a "protest vote" will have the stains of W. on them, no matter how many self righteous rants they get into. Yes Susan Sarandon, this includes YOU. Even DU got low marks for doing nothing when some of the African American posters were outright driven out of here, even to the point where someone's rl address got exposed. Effie, you know exactly who I am talking about, and her presence here is MISSED.

Now, let me make this clear, I am a yellow dog democrat. I honestly know, not believe, KNOW a yellow dog would do less damage than the GOP, especially in it's current incarnation which combines the very worst of the Libertarians and the Bible Thumpers. The worst of Dogs would not be as vicious as trump, nor as easy to manipulate. I indeed had my issues with Hillary, even though she did get my vote in the Primary, thanks in a large part to what happened to my friend Bravenak.

After the Primary, which does need to be allowed to run it's proper course, my vote is democrat, because the GOP are not only wrong, but they have metastasized into a force that is not even able or wiling to keep the Russians from stealing our votes. This is not a disagreement about how to best solve a problem, these are able who are willing to let themselves be hijacked by people who actively want to permanently damage the nation, no less a Civil War then the original. When you count how many people have died from lack of medical care, assault weapons shootings, and wars fought for profit, the body count is equal to any war. Even General Lee would be ashamed.

[radius777]

131. lots of crossover between Trumpers and Berners,

both driven by white identity populism and resentment towards Clinton/Obama Dem party's focus on diversity.

Berners tend to look at Trumpers as misguided populists, whose xenophobia is caused by the 1 percent (trade, outsourcing, etc) - thus to be excused as economic anxiety.

Trump-lite vs Trumpism? I'll take neither.

Dems need to stand up for our true base(the Obama coalition) which exists across the country (not just in "coastal" areas as the Berners like to claim).

[Gothmog]

137. Who is surprised by this?

[radius777]

138. Nobody, but the "reach out to Trumper" posts

on this site and elsewhere, are heavily from the Berner types, many of whom resent the modern Dem party and would prefer a return to the Dixiecrat era.

[Abu Pepe]

139. Im guessing freindships are being strained

Getting off FB helps a lot with that. Nobody likes being made a fool of as Trump voters were. Its hard for them to admit. The cognitive dissonance of Trump the Russian puppet has to be maddening.

[bobGandolf]

140. Is there really? On DU?

Sympathy, and understanding for Trump supporters......are you kidding me....there is so much wrong with this request.
Because of their lack of initiative to understand Trump, and his policies we are in crisis mode .
They enjoy his mean spirited behavior towards just about everyone, except white men.
Is that who we need to be nice to?

[DFW]

141. I have seen a few people on FB (I'm not there much)

At first, they were Sanders supporters. Fair enough.

After that, they were I-Hate-Hillary fanatics. Less cool, but haters gotta hate.

After that, they found they had painted themselves into a corner, leaving only Trump.

Intellectually, they KNOW Trump to be a walking toxic waste dump, but emotionally, they don't want to have been wrong, so the man in power is right where he ought to be. Sort of a political version of the Republican view of wealth distribution ("If you're rich, you deserve it, and if you're poor, you deserve it&quot .

I refuse to be misled by people who were misled. Trump supporters who are not filthy rich are either evil people who fucked up, or else they are gullible people who fucked up. I can allow them a modest degree of understanding, but, as long as they cling to their views, no sympathy.

[Kentonio]

142. I have a question for you.

When we won in Alabama with lots of Trump voters, did you feel like that victory was tainted?

When we won in Pennsylvania with lots of Trump voters, did that cheapen the win?

If we get Trump voters coming out and switching to Dem candidates then the blue wave will come in November and we'll smash the GOP in 2020. How much do you think it helps that cause if we go around calling the very people who we need to vote for us derogatory names? You think someone is more or less likely to vote for you if you've just called them a stupid, backwards asshole?

Clinton's 'deplorables' comment was absolutely idiotic. According to anecdotal accounts, it literally made people who planned on voting for her not do so, because they had Trump supporting children or relatives and she'd just insulted their family members.

Insulting his voters achieves nothing positive other than to make the people doing it feel good. All it does is push those people further away and reduces our chances of getting their votes. You might think they deserve to be pushed away, you might think they deserve to have their stupidity pointed out to them, and theoretically you're probably completely right. If we want to get back into power however and actually start undoing the terrible damage being done, then we don't get the satisfaction of doing that right now.

We need to focus, offer a positive message and leave the recriminations for later. It's a luxury we simply can't afford right now.

[MrsCoffee]

146. What we cant afford is to capitulate in the middle of a blue wave inspired by anti-Trump sentiment.

No need to wait for something to make it start. The blue wave IS already happening. Who wants to join a party that stands for nothing and willingly derails its own momentum?

Insulting people like Hillary, Pelosi, Feinstein, Gillibrand and the Democratic Party in general achieves nothing positive and only makes those doing it feel good. It’s hypocritical, short sighted and destructive. Pandering to those who tried to take away our rights, our healthcare and our humanity and pretending that they are somehow the future of this party is so fucking outrageous I cannot find the words.

The Our Revolution mindset is a big part of the reason we are having to claw our way back. They didn’t add a single positive message. That mindset has spectacularly failed to draw people to the party. I’m starting to think that’s going according to their plan.

We will not capitulate.

[Kentonio]

147. What does anything you just said have to do with what I said?

Perhaps if you stop imagining there's some huge inter-party fight going on that in reality is only a DU circular firing squad, then you might start focusing a little more on the real battle, the one against the GOP.

[NCTraveler]

143. Same people.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=10378237