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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsTo those insisting that we "reach out to" and "understand" Trump supporters, let me break it down
Last edited Tue Mar 20, 2018, 11:20 AM - Edit history (1)
You seem to assume that no one has tried to understand or reach out to Trump supporters until now. But we've understood and have been reaching out to them for years. The problem is that they've ignored us.
I've probably interacted with and reached out to more Trump voters and supporters over the years than many have. And, based on my experience, I've come to believe that the great majority of Trump supporters are not worth wasting any further effort on because they know exactly what they're doing, who they're supporting and what he stands for. They've had more than enough chances to see the light and come around and there's little that anyone can tell them now that will make them change their minds at this point.
I can't tell you how many Trump voters I've talked to who have said such things as, "I know he may be racist, but, I'm interested in the Supreme Court" or "I like his stand on taxes" or "I love that's shaking things up," and such other excuses.
I've so totally lost patience with them and these arguments that I now cut them off as soon as they say, "I know he's a racist ..." and tell them that's all I need to know - and if they know that as well, the only thing they can follow that with is "but that's OK with me."
That really pisses them off because they know it's true but they're ashamed to have to admit that to a black woman - because, you know, they're so not racist. And they're not sure how they can get around the fact that acknowledging they are supporting a bigot means they really should stop supporting him but they don't want to stop. And if they continue to support him after being confronted with his racism, how can they continue going around pretending they're open-minded decent people? They can't.
So, instead, they insist that their reasons for supporting him are sufficient to outweigh his racism - as if racism is just any other bug that can be overcome by other features. And they're surely more than grateful for the cover they're given by apologists like some people on DU who fall all over themselves defending them by going on the offensive to attack fellow Democrats for having the NERVE to even SUGGEST that these poor people are bigots or bigot enablers, but are just confused and misunderstood.
Bullshit. Most of them are neither confused nor misunderstood. They know Trump and a critical mass of his supporters are racist. They've seen the evidence every day for years, but they ignore it. They've heard their friends and co-workers and neighbors and favorite athletes and others tell them the pain and fear and danger this man causes us and beg them PLEASE don't help him do this to us, but they turned their backs. They know all this. THEY JUST DON'T CARE.
We can argue about the reasons they claim to abhor racism but don't care about it when it actually occurs. Frankly. I've lost interest in their reasons. All I know is what they DO. And what they've done and continue to do is tolerate and defend a dangerous, vicious racist despite nearly three years of entreaties from minorities that they stand with us, not them.
So don't tell me that I just need to reach out to them and understand them. We've been reaching out to them for years and they slapped our hands away. As is always expected of minorities, I've reached out to them far more than they've ever bothered to reach out to us. I don't need to learn to understand them and certainly don't need to be lectured by some misguided apologists about the need to understand them. I understand them perfectly well. And for that reason, I don't care to waste any more time or effort on them.
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mikeysnot
(4,757 posts)wasting your time trying to talk sense to them.... gave up in 2005.
PaulX2
(2,032 posts)All psychopath traitors.
Except for the ones openly calling themselves Republicans and opposing Trump and their party's treason.
Pepsidog
(6,254 posts)elmac
(4,642 posts)but yes, talking to a trumpster is a huge waste of time and energy 
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)evil cyber wizards.
CambridgeAnalytica's whistleblower Christopher Wylie says they used Facebook data on 50 million users, using profiling algorithms, to create a "web of disinformation" online that exploits users' mental vulnerabilities. Clicking links takes users farther down rabbit holes created especially for them, to blogs, websites, etc., which inject disinformation chosen especially to exploit their vulnerabilities.
With enough exposure, whole basic frames of belief are created and implanted into the brain, "known" to be true, against which all new information is analyzed.
At this point, explaining to a potted plant why Trump is intensely corrupt and Hillary Clinton isn't would be almost as big a waste of time as talking to one of these victims of intense manipulation.
lillypaddle
(9,581 posts)Those imbeciles are ruining our country!
BigmanPigman
(51,627 posts)Raw Story. I have sent it to many liberal friends and family and all agree that they are too far gone and have been so for too long to change in in a single generation, let alone a single conversation. It is a complete waste of time and energy and a lesson in futility and frustration to attempt talking to anyone them using any rational logical thought process or argument or facts or history, etc.
https://www.rawstory.com/2018/02/insider-explains-rural-christian-white-america-dark-terrifying-underbelly/
lillypaddle
(9,581 posts)bookmarked for later.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)... as far as I'm concerned.
Eliot Rosewater
(31,121 posts)Response to NurseJackie (Reply #2)
RestoreAmerica2020 This message was self-deleted by its author.
hueymahl
(2,510 posts)I agree with a portion of your premise - there is a core of Drumph voters that can never be reached for whatever reason. Those can be abandoned and should be, with our resources aimed at other groups.
But if you are saying we should ignore and write-off ALL Orange Shitgoblin supporters across the board, then you and I disagree, and I don't think any amount of online debate will change that. And, in my opinion, that strategy will doom us to losing more elections that we should.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)TRUMP VOTERS ARE RACIST. No amount of equivocation or excusing them as misguided or confused will change this fact. But like I explained earlier in another thread where the trump voter was said to be
so misunderstood, racism in ameriKKKa is a cultural problem NOT limited to one particular political party and never has been...Nixon's 'southern strategy ' worked wonders for him. Trumps open racism is evident in his administration and has been a trumpet call for racist whites nationwide to come out of the swamps and be proud of their racial hate.
WE WILL NOT LOSE ELECTIONS because we don't reach out to a person that most likely would cut off that hand reaching out or blow up someone, run over them with a super charged dodge or who is clear on hating n****** and brown people of all cultures.
To trust a trump voter is paramount to asking them to kill me just because my skin is brown. Fuck the trump voter. THEY MAY NOT HATE YOU IF YOUR SKIN COLOR IS THEIRS, BUT THEY hate my skin color. That's all I know about ALL trump voters released by their president from the swamps and toilets of ameriKKKa to shit on everyone not white.
The writer of this OP is 100 percent correct and YOU ARE NOT!!!!
Have a good one No more time to waste on trump voter apologists.
hueymahl
(2,510 posts)You are calling me a Trump voter apologist?
heaven05
(18,124 posts)anything, you know your intent when asking people to reach out to people who hate them. I CALL ALL trump voters racist, homophobic bigots. Can't deal that? Okay. Keep reaching out.
brush
(53,871 posts)If some trump supporters are decent people they'll come around on their own.
But come the fuck on, if they're decent people they wouldn't still be supporting trump and the racists like Steven Miller and others he's surrounded himself with.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)said ANY trump voter was in my line of understanding, decent. Was this meant for a different responder to OP?
brush
(53,871 posts)brush
(53,871 posts)If some trump supporters are decent people they'll come around on their own.
But come the fuck on, if they're decent people they wouldn't still be supporting trump and the racists like Steven Miller and others he's surrounded himself with.
hueymahl
(2,510 posts)I swear, and not to pick on you, but so many posters on this site are just so consumed with their own point of view that they don't even bother trying to understand what someone says.
The point I was trying to make, apparently not very well, is a purely practical political one. If we want to win more of the close races and more of the races in Trump country, then we are going to actually have to be pragmatic in our approach. Which means we are going to have to run actual moderate democrats. Not in every district, but lets be real about it. A winning candidate in San Francisco is a lot different than a winning candidate in rural Pennsylvania.
As I said in my original post, his hard-core base is essentially untouchable. It is the swing voters and the rust-belt voters that in the past have voted for dems that I am talking about (if after all of this they are still ardent supporters, they fall in that untouchable class). And that means giving these reachable voters a reason, any reason, to vote for a Democratic candidate. Which means understanding what motivates them and what their local issues are.
This is not radical thought. It is politics 101.
BlueWI
(1,736 posts)during our "five minutes of hate," as Orwell would say?
How dare you do that! Let's get back to calling every single Trump voter a racist while casting as much doubt as possible that any Trump voter will ever, ever vote differently in the future.
There. Now you know the party line.
Thanks for that!
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)You sound amazingly like ...
Oh, never mind. But the resemblance is uncanny.
brush
(53,871 posts)thesquanderer
(11,992 posts)...just as there were women (and male non-misogynists) who voted for him despite his obvious misogyny.
They may have felt his policies would be okay despite these awful character traits (you're voting for a president, not a best friend), basically preferring the Republican platform or all his jobs talk or an "anti establishment" candidate or whatever. And each candidate also got some votes from the "anyone but" contingent, i.e. some Clinton voters were "anyone but Trump," and some Trump voters were "anyone but Clinton" -- not every vote is a ringing endorsement of the candidate they voted for... I'm sure many here would have voted for "anyone but Trump," and there are people who felt just as strongly the other way. I just don't think you can lump the entire lot of Trump voters into the same barrel.
It's also presumably easier to say "I know he's racist, but..." if someone is white and never experienced racism first hand, making the whole topic more academic than personal.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)Last edited Mon Mar 19, 2018, 01:29 PM - Edit history (1)
Trump voters had 15 months, as I did, listening to his racist 'dog whistles' concerning ALL minorities. As they listened to his promises of ' maga'. Common sense tells me, those who voted for him were sympathetic to his message(s). Period.
At the very least him obvious racism wasn't a dealbreaker for them.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)That's saying a lot....
thesquanderer
(11,992 posts)
sheshe2
(83,908 posts)Full Stop.
You are 100% correct, heaven.
thesquanderer
(11,992 posts)...but it doesn't mean the generalizations/stereotypes are always true.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)Generalizations from the best growing up, in America. Please understand while being an individual, I was generalized by the whole of ameriKKKan population every place I went. Please, you cannot teach me anything about generalization. Later.....
thesquanderer
(11,992 posts)...even if you've been the victim of generalization yourself. But it is still good to recognize generalizations for what they are.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)Yes, the subject of generalizations are appropriate for the trump voter and his base of racist, homophobic "deplorables" and your sense of fair play is admirable. Yet I know what kind of human being I represent to 99.9% of trump voters. The type of generalizations that they use in my case has been the case since the word n***** came into use. So while I understand your attempt at Fair play, and please keep reaching out to your racial brethren, I assume you are of the same race as 99.9% of trump voters. I can't and won't attempt rhe same thing. Since trump has unleashed his EVIL minions onto the streets of ameriKKKa it is like the 50's all over again, yes I lived it.
Except this time there is no averting eyes, stepping off into the street when one of the 'superior' race approaches? Although the trump deplorables, their GOP and tea party rats are living a fantasy of racial superiority, again
the type of respect the trump turd desires is not possible. I am still waiting for them to reach out to me with fair play and honesty as to my position as just another human being struggling from pay day to pay day every day and not be dubbed by them as some kind of n***** miscreant as the many RW sites label ALL AA and brown immigrants. LET THEM START REACHING OUT without harm to the person(s) they are reaching out to. Have a good one.
thesquanderer
(11,992 posts)Those sound like unlikely racists, and it's not an insignificant number. So when you say you "know what kind of human being {you} represent to 99.9% of trump voters", maybe that is a reason to at least lower that estimate to about 87%? (Still awful, of course.)
It seems clear that racism resonates with the majority of his base. But there are also people who simply were not going to vote for Clinton, for other reasons. I also think he's a con man who managed to take in a bunch of other voters with his simplistic slogans, vilifying of Clinton, promise to bring back jobs he could not bring back, etc. These are not all people on the RW sites that you talk about. Some of these people may have even voted for him despite his racism, not because of it. Yes, I understand the OP's point about those who say ""I know he's a racist, but ..." but I think what's discounted there is that, for many people, racism is simply not as important to them as other things, it just doesn't affect their day to day lives. Or to put it in a different context, they'd rather be employed by a racist boss than be unemployed. It's easier to consider racism a low priority in your decision when you're white and living in Wisconsin (83% white), even if your heart is actually in the right place.
That said, I understand the point of the OP, which you've reinforced yourself, i.e. that it is not the jobs of minorities to do the reaching out. Please don't think I'm taking issue with that. I've only been discussing the side issue of assuming that every Trump voter is necessarily a deplorable. There is a difference even between "most" and "all."
and p.s., thanks for your constructive engagement in this discussion. We all look at these things through the lenses of our personal experiences, and yours clearly inform where you're coming from. I've had to come to terms with the fact that my sister voted for Trump, despite not only his racism which, being white, she might not relate to so personally (despite having chosen to be a social worker in black neighborhoods when she got out of college), though also despite his obvious misogyny which clearly she would have related to perrsonally. She didn't trust Clinton, and she wanted to see things shaken up. {sigh} She could easily have been a Sanders voter, if that had been the matchup. I suspect she's not unique.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)it just doesn't affect their day to day lives.”
But how do you explain the continued refusal to listen to or understand the people whose lives it does directly affect, people who are telling them how it does affect them and begging them to listen and respond? Are these people so lacking in empathy that they just can’t understand or hear the suffering and needs of others? Are they this hard-hearted to all other human beings? Or is there a reason they refuse to listen to this particular group?
And if they are so deaf to other people’s concerns - whether it’s just minorities or everyone else regardless of their race - do we really want to invite them into our diverse party, a party that tries to address the concerns of everyone?
As I said, I don’t want anyone like that anywhere near my politics.
thesquanderer
(11,992 posts)It's a good question, with multiple answers.
One gets back to my basic premise of not being able to group everyone together. Saying it's not true that 100% of the Trump voters are beyond redemption is not the same as saying 100% of them can be redeemed, either.
Of course, some people genuinely are racist, even if they claim not to be.
And sometimes there is self-interest, as I alluded to. If an un/under-employed voter thinks candidate X is going to get him a job, caring about whether the candidate is a racist or a homophobe or whatever is a luxury, and something that (if he is white and straight) he may see as having no real impact on his life. All else being equal, sure, vote for the candidate of greater moral character. But all else is not always equal, and people have different priorities.
For some people, racial justice is the over-riding issue. For others it's abortion, or gun control, or gay rights, whatever. Everyone is entitled to their litmus test. Most people not directly affected by these things do not vote on the one issue alone.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)of “racist.” If they line up with racists, vote with racists, give racists the votes they need but couldn’t otherwise get to elect a racist - and they do it despite being told over and over and over again how damaging their behavior is, it matters not a whit to me whether they believe they are genetically or otherwise superior to me.
Everyone may be entitled to their litmus test, and so am I. And my litmus test is that anyone who knowingly supports racism should be condemned and anyone who continues to behave like the racists they claim they’re not, is in no position to complain if we can’t tell them apart.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)ollie10
(2,091 posts)Calling them trump voter apologists.....why not just call them racists and misogynists?
There are a core of Trump voters who are basically a cult. When you are talking about these, they cannot be converted.
However, there are a lot of people who voted Republican in 2016. Many simply did not like Clinton and thought they would give Trump a chance. Others didn't like Trump, but usually vote Republican because they like lower taxes or whatever. My point is....there are a lot of people who voted for Trump who are not racists, not misogynists, and for that matter don't even know what MAGA is.....
These are potential D voters in 2020 if we give them a good reason to vote D.
However, if we go about things by emphasizing how stupid they were for pulling the lever for Trump, they are not going to be more likely to vote D. We will be pushing these potential voters away.
One of the mistakes we made in 2016 was underestimating Trump. Another was that we seriously thought that if we attacked Trump, that would be enough to win. We also didn't hone a clear message that resonated with voters. MAGA is full of shit, but it was effective. I'm With Hillary was lacking....
Lamb's victory should teach us some things. 1) he didn't spend time knocking Trump. The idea was it is unnecessary....people already know he is a buffoon. Also, this is spending time that could be used to promote D issues, why they should vote for us.
As a result, he won in a solidly R district.
If you want to complain and obsess about Trump, maybe that is therapeutic. There are more important things to do....the first and foremost being defeating the son of a bitch in 2020.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)Is as I have read with all who state your beliefs about voters from the Republican side, who might come to their senses. No division intended.
I state historical truth about our political-cultural-institutional system of governance. I vote as a Democrat, I would have voted for Lamb. I will reserve all judgement after he gained office in an election I was glad he won. The way he votes is my criteria of judgement. No I do not trust ALL Democrats all the time. Whereas I trust all trump Republicans NONE of the time.
I have no complaints about the historical realities of American politics past and present. It is what it is.
As relating to race, gender, culture or sexual orientation. Of course trump the voter comes from all sectors of our society. I know AA VOTERS who, without doubt, voted for trump. Moot point addressed.
2018-2020 work and vote for a national win. Have a good one.
hueymahl
(2,510 posts)To me this is Politics 101. Now is not the time for purity tests (this does not mean abandoning our principles - just means playing to win).
lunamagica
(9,967 posts)Didn't we do that in 2016? The Democratic platform gave everyone except for the 1% the best reason to vote Democratic.
Or what do you mean by "these are potential D voters in 2020 if we give them a good reason to vote D?"
What do we need to give thenm?
ollie10
(2,091 posts)We need to give the potential voters a clear message....how we stand on the issues....and how this is going to help the voter.
It is really sad that Trump....a billionaire was able to hijack the populist message.
Alas, it is not just about issues. Ds tend to be more issue oriented voters.
What I am saying is something the Obamas said.....when they go low, go high.
lunamagica
(9,967 posts)We did win without the deplorables, and giving any thought to them is a waste of time, time that should be spent elsewhere.
We need to try and fix the problems we had before. Voter suppression, media bias. How many times would Hillary be giving a speech about the issues, just to be cut so the networks would show trump's empty podium? Even MSNBC did that. How about the head of the FBI interfering? Don't get me started on social media...
Yet Hillary persisted, and America voted for her. There are a lot of problems that need to be addressed. With so much going on, I'm dumbfounded that now we're supposed to understand trump voters.
Sorry, can't do that. My time is too valuable to waste on that.
ollie10
(2,091 posts)Unless we pass and ratify a constitutional amendment before 2020 to abolish the electoral college. Won't happen.
You bring up some good points.
But it is still important to campaign smart. Alienating a whole block of voters who are not bound to Trump by implying they are racists, misogynists or idiots....is simply not smart. Hillary hurt herself (and us) by making the deplorables comment during the campaign....it cost her votes, including votes in MI, WI and PA which decided the election. I am not saying it was the only reason, by any stretch....but.....
You can run 6 cylinder car on 5 cylinders if you choose to. But if you want to go fast and a smooth ride, you fix the 6th one so you are running on all your cylinders......
Saying things that alienate potential voters (like Hillary did in India) is not going to give us a smooth ride.
lunamagica
(9,967 posts)distancing himself from President Clinton- doesn't work.
Hillary was honest and spoke the truth. I don't believe anyone who was offended by her would ever vote for a Democrat. The block of voters we need to expand is made of minorities, especially black women. They are our base. I feel that is so wrong to take them for granted. Why aren't there more OP wondering how to attract them?
ollie10
(2,091 posts)As I have pointed out, the Trump CULT will never vote D.
I wasn't talking about these folks.
First off, I am talking about people in various STATES.
Once you come to realize that we need to win WI, MI and PA....the next question is how do we do that?
Face it and do the math.....if these states are going to be flipped we need to get some people who voted R to vote D.
You could theoretically do it by increasing turnout for our side that is not offset by increased turnout on the other side, but ....realistically......you have to remember the basic election math:
40% of voters will vote D no matter what
40% of voters will vote R no matter what
it is the 20% of the remainder who decide the election.
If we alienate some of those 20%, that is not only not smart....it is suicidal
lunamagica
(9,967 posts)GOTV. Reach out to our base, expand it, make it stronger.
Work to eliminate voter suppression.
Again, why don't we see more post on DU about attracting minorities, esp black women?
ollie10
(2,091 posts)If Hillary keeps on making speeches like that one and alienates a few million voters who would otherwise be in play....then you have to get a few million more minority voters....just to break even, just to make up for the losses. Does that seem productive to you?
Put another way...we don't have to GIVE anything to get these voters.....all we have to do is to stop saying stupid things that alienate them so our get out the vote efforts will pay off more.
lunamagica
(9,967 posts)She spoke the truth
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)But when she speaks the truth, she's told to be quiet because truth is a problem.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,361 posts)And yet: “The various Clinton-related email scandals—her use of a private email server while secretary of state, as well as the DNC and John Podesta hacks—accounted for more sentences than all of Trump’s scandals combined (65,000 vs. 40,000) and more than twice as many as were devoted to all of her policy positions,” write Watts and Rothschild.
The sentiment may sound familiar to readers of the Erik Wemple Blog. Back in December 2016, we cited a study by Thomas E. Patterson of Harvard University’s Shorenstein Center covering the final stages of the 2016 campaign. On this very topic of investigative focus, Patterson wrote, “Clinton’s controversies got more attention than Trump’s (19 percent versus 15 percent) and were more focused. Trump wallowed in a cascade of separate controversies. Clinton’s badgering had a laser-like focus. She was alleged to be scandal-prone. Clinton’s alleged scandals accounted for 16 percent of her coverage—four times the amount of press attention paid to Trump’s treatment of women and sixteen times the amount of news coverage given to Clinton’s most heavily covered policy position.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2017/12/08/another-study-bombs-clinton-trump-campaign-coverage/?utm_term=.20c1aba9a0a5
And Clinton had extensive detail of her policies available. But the media ignored it, and just repeated Trump's soundbites, though they were usually stupid, insulting, or contradictory.
Saying "Ds tend to be more issue oriented voters" and "when they go low, go high" is, however, saying "don't try to get the Trump voters". Trump voters were those who didn't go for issues (unless "issues" to them means "ban all abortion" or similar), they went for his insults of Hillary, and his general "don't trust any politician" schtick. They showed you don't get their vote by going high.
ollie10
(2,091 posts)1) I did not say go after Trump voters in general
2) I tried to point out the FACT (not an opinion) that not all people that voted for Trump are in the Trump cult. Some would be potential voters. We can distinguish between the cultists and those who fit the description "former Trump voter with buyer's remorse"
3) Adding more voters to the D side is a good thing
4) We don't have to change our message to reach out to former Trump voters. Simply do what we should be doing anyhow....focusing on our message and avoid the trap of concentrating too much on Trump
5) We need to avoid alienating potential voters. Calling them idiots and such will do just that. We cannot afford to be shooting ourselves ini the foot.
While it is true that the media gave much more air time to Trump and this is one of the reasons for the result, this is all the more reason for us to fight smart. We have to fight for every vote as if it were the most important one.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,361 posts)about Trump?
This makes no sense. Trump got his votes by (falsely) painting the results of Obama's presidency as a disaster. Now, with Trump really screwing things up, you're saying we shouldn't use that as the centre of "why you shouldn't vote for this bigoted, incompetent criminal, or the Republicans who are enabling and protecting him"?
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)ollie10
(2,091 posts)That we can't run a campaign telling voters why they should vote for us?
Of course, we need to debate Trump's idiotic positions and show where we differ. But, this is like fertilizer....if you use the optimal amount your yard will be green, if you use too much, it will burn the hell out of it and it will turn brown.
Yes, the press is going to focus on Trump. We don't have to do that so much, since Trump's idiocy will be there for all to see.
We can't assume that all we have to do is diss Trump to win. That won't work. Besides, that plays right into his hands.
Lamb should teach us a lesson. He didn't spend a lot of time on Trump. He figured people already have formed their views on Trump, don't need to spend time there...time spent that way would be better spent hammering home his message. His message was economics, health care and tax cut. I notice that he didn't run around his district calling potential voters idiots. I think that would have hurt him, but that is just me.....
muriel_volestrangler
(101,361 posts)It was Republican before Trump came along.
It is a terrible idea to say "we must run, generally, like one campaign on the edge of the target districts". For tens of millions of Americans, a more important message is "when you don't vote for the better candidate, the awful one gets voted in by his gullible, fanatical supporters". We don't need to debate his "positions", so much as shout "he's the biggest fucking danger to the USA since the Civil War".
Trump got a smaller percentage of the vote than Romney did. There isn't some huge reservoir of Trump voters who are reasonable to be tapped; you have the gullible, and the hate-filled. That's pretty much it. And if you insist we must target the gullible, then consider what got them to vote for Trump last time: fear, and negative campaigning against the incumbent.
ollie10
(2,091 posts)Why it would be a bad idea to get our ideas out there.
As a secondary question could you explain just how calling those who have buyers remorse about trump idiots would add votes to our column. Just how does this work??.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,361 posts)No one has said "it would be a bad idea to get our ideas out there".
I don't propose calling Trump voters "idiots" in official publicity. But, let's face it, if they're not bigots, then they are idiots, and we're not going to pretend here otherwise. But if pointing out how bad it was to vote for Trump is what it takes to persuade those who didn't vote at all in 2016 to vote Democratic next time, then it needs to be done. There are a lot of people out there who disapprove of Trump; they'll be more likely to vote Democratic than people who had bad enough judgement to vote for him the first time.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts) EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)realize how shameful their choices have been and they need to do better.
ollie10
(2,091 posts)Deplorables was a major mistake.
I agree with Hillary.
We should learn from our mistakes instead of repeating them
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)And no one, at least as far as I can tell, is advocating calling anyone an idiot as a campaign strategy. I know I’m not.
But there’s a huge difference beeeen calling someone an idiot and chasing after them begging for their votes, especially at the expense of our loyal base.
BoneyardDem
(1,202 posts)Trump supporters will NEVER vote for a DEM, regardless of the message. There is NOTHING a Dem can say that would sway that vote.
In the news just today there was a prominent disenchanted Trump supporter that was turned off by Trump and the current flavor of the Republican Party. They didn't leave because anything the Dems said or didn't say, He left because his own eyes were opened to the truth of his party.
They will leave if and when their minds and hearts are ready. After decades of anti-Dem indoctrination, I'm still not convinced that they will vote Dem, likely got Libertarian.
progressoid
(49,999 posts)You saved me having to type a bunch of stuff! 
relayerbob
(6,555 posts)are just as filled with hate as the people who detest.
Both of you need to learn.
a LOT!
Cha
(297,676 posts)personal attacks.
MadDAsHell
(2,067 posts)
heaven05
(18,124 posts)my opinion about human beings and politics does not make me any less a Democrat than the true "lovely ones" passing judgement. Have a good one 😊
gratuitous
(82,849 posts)Since the installation, Democrats have flipped dozens of seats, won Senate and House special elections in heavily Republican states and districts, lead in generic polling by double digits, and are poised to take back the House, maybe the Senate, at the mid-terms.
CrispyQ
(36,518 posts)hueymahl
(2,510 posts)No thanks, I will continue to focus on winning elections over principles when necessary. Connor Lamb is a perfect example.
brush
(53,871 posts)on our dime. Our resources are best spent on GOTV and combating repug cheating and vote suppression, which is how they win elections.
If anyone still supports trump at this point they themselves are racists and/or misogynists and they can fuck off.
Pepsidog
(6,254 posts)Mueller, treason, Stormy whatever is discovered about Trump will have zero affect on his base. They might listen once they lose their health benefits or the economy collapses and we see job losses of 800,000 per month. Then again, if Dems control the House they will invariably blame Dems. I have said it before, besides voting, the most important strategy to combat the radical right is a massive, coordinated strike in some fashion at Fox News an Trumps’ acolytes like Hannity, Fox and Friends, Pirro etc. Come on, there must be volumes of dirt on these quacks to attack them with. I mean play dirty, investigate their personal lives like the National Inquirer did to John Edwards. These miscreants must have many skeltons in their closet which need to be exposed to get them kicked off the air. Until we address the right-wing media problem there is no reasoning with these idiots.
MrsCoffee
(5,803 posts)3catwoman3
(24,050 posts)...anti-vaccine parents that they should immunize their kids. I know I'm not going to get anywhere.
ck4829
(35,091 posts)And for those who talk about "economic anxiety", here's the economic cost of defending GLBTQ Americans, of rejecting Islamophobia, of seeing a disconnect when someone says "All Lives Matter" but turning away when refugees need help, of seeing immigrants and refugees as being "illegal" as a silly concept, of standing up saying that's wrong when someone says other groups are lazy and don't deserve assistance but people of your group earned it for some reason, etc...
That cost is ZERO.
There is no excuse to be a silent enabler of bigotry, racism, and xenophobia. I live paycheck to paycheck and there have been times in the past year I've gone to bed hungry, it doesn't mean I've stopped saying that Black Lives Matter, it doesn't mean the Somali-American Muslim woman in my extended family is somehow less welcome, and it doesn't mean I am going to stop defending gay and transgender people, so if we need to reach out, then people need to reach back. Period.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)And what an excellent point. All of the understanding and reaching out we keep hearing about is completely unilateral an illusory outcome: the possibility that they may vote Democratic.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)So true about ALL trump voters . Racist, bigoted cretins not worth the time.
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)haters and NRA fascists into the fold.
We need to go after the non racist apathetic voters. The 40% or so that don't vote.
Motivate them to the polls and dems will rule without the hateful white supremacist deplorables.
LAS14
(13,783 posts)...basket contains deplorables.
We, as progressives, need to clean up our act about clear thinking. We're sounding more and more like the right wing when we engage in thoughtless black and white rants like this.
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)could get 100 apathetic non-hater voters on our side.
Also the 'former' Trump voter will stab us in the back again when Fox and friends and their preacher tells them to!
LAS14
(13,783 posts)workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)By ERIC W. DOLAN March 18, 2018
People with similar values to Donald Trump were more likely to support his candidacy for president.
A new study on the personal values of Trump supporters suggests they have little interest in altruism but do seek power over others, are motivated by wealth, and prefer conformity. The findings were published in the scientific journal Personality and Individual Differences.
“While all presidential elections are important in terms of their consequences, the 2016 primary season seemed particularly unusual in no small part because Donald Trump — a well known real-estate mogul and celebrity — was leading the Republican Primary. Although most pundits gave him no shot at winning, he continued to perform well in the primary elections. Thus, I wondered — who is supporting Donald Trump?” said Ryne A. Sherman, an associate professor at Texas Tech University and author of the study.
Trump supporters were more likely to agree with statements such as “People who are poor just need to work harder”, “In life, winning is the only thing that matters”, “A company’s main focus should be profits”, “Art shows are boring”, and “Dress codes are good and should be followed strictly.”
http://www.psypost.org/2018/03/study-trump-voters-desire-power-others-motivated-wealth-prefer-conformity-50900
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210378744
LAS14
(13,783 posts)Wouldn't it be great if people respected other posters enough to speak to their positions? My point has been to urge that we avoid "all" thinking. It's lazy and not worth the progressive movement.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)And it’s divisive bullshit.
LAS14
(13,783 posts)
whathehell
(29,092 posts)The divisiveness and intolerance is incredible. 
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)There also is a vigorous cheering section for everyone who pushes back on those who have no desire to align with Trump supporters. Lots of time and energy is being spent on the fight to understand and defend Trump supporters and push back on anyone who says hell no to that. As I said, I wonder what up with that?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)It really points out who these creeps are:
Trump supporters were more likely to agree with statements such as “People who are poor just need to work harder”, “In life, winning is the only thing that matters”, “A company’s main focus should be profits”, “Art shows are boring”, and “Dress codes are good and should be followed strictly.”
A pack of little Hitlers IMO
TheBlackAdder
(28,214 posts)ck4829
(35,091 posts)TheBlackAdder
(28,214 posts)Demit
(11,238 posts)How do you suggest racism be eradicated, and what are we not yet understanding about it?
TheBlackAdder
(28,214 posts)There are a whole lot of factors that promote racism.
This is an oversimplified detail of Southern Paternalism.
Back in the antebellum South, slaveholders were abhorded and seen as paraihas in their comminuty. Thing did not really change until the 1820s-1840s when the Baptist, Methodist and Presbyterian ministers from the North were offered money and property from the slaveholders to promote them as virtuous. Within 10 years, the concept of Southern Paternalism was formed, where slaveholders were seen as offering Christianity to people who would never be exposed to it. The pastors held two services, one to sell the white community on the benefits of slavery, and how slaveholders were doing God's work. There was another service for the slaves, telling them that they need to be good servants. That while life is hard, they will receive eternal salvation in heaven upon their death.
So, it took 20 years, or roughly one generation to shift southerners from hating and shunning slaveholders to fully embracing them as upstanding citizens of the community.
So, where there is a will, there is a way. Most people are racist and nationalists because they live in cloistered and relatively ignorant hamlets, where non-whites are few. They listen to others and reinfoce their views of ignorance.
The young kids, with social media, are now harnessing a lot of this to promote the me too and anti-gun agenda which was unforeseen a couple of years ago. In NJ, governor's races less than two decades ago were still selling LGBTQ as a fear issue to drive conservatives to the polls, Now, it doesn't have the same effect and is almost abandoned as a tactic here.
You need to know the origins of where these racist beliefs are rooted to counter their influences.
Demit
(11,238 posts)TheBlackAdder
(28,214 posts)Demit
(11,238 posts)Maybe you should delve into the peer-reviewed research that you are sure exists. It might help you better explain what you meant by your original post.
TheBlackAdder
(28,214 posts)There are answers to anything, and before you give up and assume something is unsolveable, you first need to know its origins and how things work. The same is how medical research is mainly performed to cure cancers and viruses. Sure, some things can be solved by trial and error, or by accident, but most comes down to tearing apart a problem and find out how things operate. I do not specialize in that area, but I do know that people are maleable and after researching Southern Paternalism, people's attitudes can change in as little as one generation. Heck, just 5 years ago, ALL Republicans hated Putin, now they embrace him.
I expect another follow-up.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)I’d rather focus on the tried and true who we don’t have to worry about losing to a new bright shiny object every election cycle.
Demit
(11,238 posts)you're wrong. And that was my only question to you. I was curious if there was any insight behind your statement or if it was just a bromide. I think I know now. So that's my follow-up.
Hermit-The-Prog
(33,430 posts)Racism stems from a basic fear -- fear of the unknown. That which is different is unknown, therefore suspicious and to be feared. It's an animal instinct just as fear of falling. (Watch a toddler hide behind Mom or Dad's leg when encountering a stranger and you'll see this). Racial isolation feeds this fear. Ignorance feeds this fear. Segregation perpetuates racism.
End isolation, segregation, and the fear of difference, and you minimize racism. Tv has actually helped in that regard, just as radio has somewhat homogenized language.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Lots of people are fearful but that doesn't provoke them into racism. Racism is driven by many things, including hate and greed.
Chalking up all racism to fear diminishes and excuses it.
Hermit-The-Prog
(33,430 posts)That hate begins with fear -- anything that is perceived as a threat may become hated.
We are all born with a fear of being extinguished and all of its subset fears of falling, entrapment, the unknown (including darkness because of threats not seen and 'other', including snakes, insects, and beasts), loss of self, etc. When these are reasonable fears, they aid survival; when they are unreasonable, they damage the individual and that individual's community.
Racism is based on an unreasonable fear of a non-threatening difference. If reinforced as reasonable, either through societal policies such as segregation or by authority figures (parents, etc.), it can become hatred. That hatred is taught but is based on fear.
Brown v. Board of Education and the Little Rock nine represented the law disavowing segregation as well as providing white students in Central High an opportunity to experience for themselves the fact that racial differences are non-threatening. A tiny step, certainly, but there's a big difference in the U.S. between then and now. That was a big chip in a wall that had been built for centuries.
Teach greed and hatred well enough and you end up with TrumPutin.
flibbitygiblets
(7,220 posts)It's been said that racism is based fear and ignorance. I had hoped that Obama's presidency would give rural white Americans a glimpse into the daily life of an African-American family, which would lead the way to open their hearts and minds.
Not so much.
Despite the lack of ANY type of scandal, drama, etc., and being an AMAZING role model for ALL Americans, the Obama's were denigrated, lied about, and hated, just for being there. Just for existing. Just for having the nerve to be in that position. Then Trump and the republicans came along, played on that fear and hatred, and the rural whites were emboldened. That's where we are now.
It still makes me sick, and makes me want to cry. No, I will not engage these backward assholes either. I will not allow them to pretend they are not racists. They are, and I'm calling them on it.
ck4829
(35,091 posts)"Oh my God, he put mustard on a hamburger, impeach him!", "He's wearing a tan suit, oh the humanity!", and "He said 'uh' in a speech, only a secret Kenyan Muslim would do that!"
BumRushDaShow
(129,483 posts)and the "O Flag" purportedly modified by his campaign (when he stood in front of the OH state flag) and other bullshit... literally right out of the gate....
ck4829
(35,091 posts)exboyfil
(17,865 posts)A white man can go play golf. I wonder if Judicial Watch is counting up Trump's golf days.
Atticus
(15,124 posts)
Chakaconcarne
(2,462 posts)
Burma Jones
(11,760 posts)not to gloat or otherwise treat them with contempt if they ever get their heads out of their asses.
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,043 posts)LAS14
(13,783 posts)Me.
(35,454 posts)dalton99a
(81,590 posts)NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)To believe the blatant ratfucking argument we are hearing, mainly from one person on DU, we must simply write those millions off as being masochistic.
safeinOhio
(32,720 posts)They sure don't worry about racism and come right out and say they don't.
The one thing I ALWAYS catch them on is by talking about Ronald Reagan and how he thought Russia was the worst evil in the world. That always shuts them up and they have nothing to come back with.
lancelyons
(988 posts)Trump supporters and the wide group of Fox News conservatives have been programmed to hate liberals.
They have touted liberalism as a disease. They say all information that disagrees with them is Fake.
I know we are the adults in the group and the intellectual ones but I think we deserve an apology from the Trump supporters.
True Blue American
(17,988 posts)Half the Hater Hosts on Fox believe what they say. They do it because it pays well.
Anon-C
(3,430 posts)
loyalsister
(13,390 posts)But I think there has been too much stereotyping and generalization. A person doesn't have to try to understand or reach out to stop the othering and hateful rhetoric.
LAS14
(13,783 posts)A poster the other day, I THINK 2Left4U, made a great point that the amount of attention you should pay to understanding Trump voters, never mind reaching out, depends on where you live, if you happen to be the sort of person who "reaches out" by knocking on doors, etc. If you live in Alabama, you might as well stay home if you're going to label everyone the way we've seen in some threads. If you live in Harlem, relax and revel in your hatred because you can go knock on doors without it getting in your way.
True Blue American
(17,988 posts)I have given up. It is impossible to reason. Most begin laughing and try to change the subject.
They are scared and weak. Need some one to voice their fears.
dameatball
(7,399 posts)I had a guy try to explain to me how Obama was "behind" Black Lives Matter. It was painfully obvious that the conversation would go nowhere.
I did press him for one example of his stance and of course there was nothing except general bullshit. Not worth it.
Progressive dog
(6,918 posts)existential threat to our nation is not realistic. Reaching out to them by abandoning even the tiniest, most insignificant segment of the Democratic coalition to get the support of some of them is not right.
Conceding anything to Putin's puppet's puppets is a non-starter.
gratuitous
(82,849 posts)Who do we tell, "Okay, we got your* vote, but can you hold off on wanting to be a full participating member of American society for another two years, or four years, or a decade? Because we have to make nice with people who hate your guts and want you dead. Sure, you think you won some victories in the past, but we need to give some of that back in order to curry the favor of people who don't recognize your basic humanity. That's okay, right? I mean, even though we can win and have won elections without their votes, we have to make them feel good about themselves right now."
*This can be black people, latinos, glbt, or whoever else can't be considered full citizens until the bigots are on board.
Progressive dog
(6,918 posts)lame54
(35,324 posts)Why don't they have to reach out to us
jalan48
(13,886 posts)However, I would assume candidate’s running for office would reach out to all voters in their districts in trying to get elected.
kairos12
(12,873 posts)sagetea
(1,375 posts)They can be 'reasoned with' or talked to in a civilized way. They DO NOT think right. I know this, because the last year, I started going to a site called 'similar worlds' and started trying to engage them in civil political conversations. The orange Kool-aid has colored their vision to orange, nothing, not factcheck, not truth, nothing will help clear their vision. These people are so ignorant, they think that the 'liberals' are the racists, the xenophobes, the misogynistics, their circular logic is deeply astounding. I, myself, have gotten to where I am just mean to them, and I'm not a mean person, but just by trying to engage them, I've gotten mean!!! I really don't think they are human.
sage
MRDAWG
(501 posts)for years Rush and Hannity have told them that Washington is bad.
yonder
(9,676 posts)They will carry me for a spell.
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)
leftofcool
(19,460 posts)I now longer reach out to bigots, racists, enablers or apologists and I don't give a shit who they vote for in the same way I don't give a shit about protest votes, votes for a gorilla or write in votes with some stupid name on it.
DownFromTheMountain
(226 posts)When I came up against sociopaths in a group effort years ago, and labored to discuss issues with people like this that just seek power over, (only to be dismissed the way things are happening with this administration), i found it helpful to recite to myself "Not One More Minute" to that bs. Move forward and leave the black holes behind! We got the numbers in the popular vote.
ffr
(22,671 posts)They do not tolerate having their world views challenged in that safe haven sub-forum. And I'd advise staying clear. The users barely know how to use a keyboard, let alone function on a forum. And heaven forbid you reply back to any of them. Their sheep herder will send you away without notice, bending the rules near their breaking point in order to protect his flock.
It's like the quintessential model of a private club where tough talkers can go for their warm milk and cookies before nap time, sheltered from the world around them. 
onecaliberal
(32,898 posts)father and so many others fought in WWII for, they might matter to me. They have proven over and over they are without morals, or ethics, and want to be above laws. It's party over country all the way for these people. So long as that is true, I have no f&*#s to give.
ck4829
(35,091 posts)than reaching out to these people just for them to jerk back with "Get away from me, liberal!"
onecaliberal
(32,898 posts)voting for a democrat. They're pond scum.
ck4829
(35,091 posts)I was attacked for saying there are people in our country who would gouge out their eyes or sell their children before supporting a liberal. That was before they almost elected Roy Moore.
The Wizard
(12,548 posts)but rather a toxic death cult that wants to take normal people over the cliff with them.
brush
(53,871 posts)
Whiskeytide
(4,463 posts)... voted for the asshole and now regret it, and people who still support him to any degree.
The former were fooled by his lies. Accordingly, they should be classified as too stupid to participate in the political process, be stripped of their right to vote, and should be required to wear a helmet during all waking hours until they complete a civics course and an ethics course, take and pass an exam, and can be certified as Fox News free for 12 months. At that time they can be issued a right to cast a provisional vote that can be rescinded immediately if they regress in any way.
The people who still support him or ANY of his agenda, should be investigated and deported for treason. Concentration camps are expensive and have bad optics.
LAS14
(13,783 posts)We would be so much better off if we distinguished between the Trump base and Trump voters. I certainly agree with most things you've said when applied to the base (by definition, the people that fit your description.)
What you refuse to address, over and over, though, is that we can't label "all" members of any group as large as Trump voters. We don't know "all" of them. And I used to think it was a principle of pregressives that we don't engage in stereotyping.
Turbineguy
(37,368 posts)And that seems to be pretty fuckin' deep.
Don't tell them The Secret. They have the power to turn off Fox News and RW Hate Radio. The rest will follow in time.
BobTheSubgenius
(11,567 posts)Hitler was a vegetarian who loved dogs.
The other drawbacks were pretty significant, though, even if they drew in some other "very fine people." Just how awful does someone have to be, even if it is just one area (and it's not), before there is no excuse? And the above illustrations are valid exceptions to Godwin's law.
Kurt V.
(5,624 posts)puts me in direct contact with RWNJ every day. some i like enough to converse about the weather or sports or what not. but i have never, never met one that wasn't racist to some degree. Friends and family included. Very disappointing. 
amuse bouche
(3,657 posts)I waste zero of my precious time on them
Gothmog
(145,564 posts)Prior to the election of Gilberto Hinojosa, the Texas Democratic Party was chaired by Boyd Ritchie who was a nice guy but was an idiot. The emphasis of the Texas Democratic Party used to be on winning very white East Texas because that is where Boyd came from. This was a stupid plan. Now the party is concentrating on urban areas like Dallas, Houston, San Antonio and Austin and areas like the Rio Grande Valley.
Going after trump voters does not work. The TDP spent decades attempting this and it failed.
dalton99a
(81,590 posts)Gothmog
(145,564 posts)Since we changed strategy, Dallas has been blue since 2006 and Harris County went blue in 2016.
whathehell
(29,092 posts)Yes, we'll do very well when we represent minorities only. 
Gothmog
(145,564 posts)East Texas is trump country and there is no way that you are doing to get these voters to vote for anyone but a racist GOP type.
whathehell
(29,092 posts)you're not just talking about EastTexas or Trump voters.
2left4u
(186 posts)“Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.”
Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)The same question can be asked of Jesus.
You don’t have to hate those who hate, all you have to do is live and breath your own truth to nullify their hate one at a time. Hatred that can’t hurt another only turns on the hater. Let that person be their own destroyer.
2left4u
(186 posts)gopiscrap
(23,765 posts)a plague on your house...these fucking shitstain assholes don't anything but brute political force...we need to drive them back into the mental caves they came from..these asswipe neanderthals are unteachable and unreachable
world wide wally
(21,755 posts)If it makes someone feel better to call them on their bullshit, just do it.
We just have to make sure we get out and vote!
lunatica
(53,410 posts)who would sidle up to other white people they didn't even know and with their hand hiding their mouths would whisper racist slurs about Blacks, Mexicans and Asians in the vicinity. They assumed that because I’m white I’m just like them.
When I was younger I didn’t respond because I didn’t identify it as the violent racism it is and I didn’t know how to respond but with age and comprehension I became quite outspoken about it.
The only thing my being outspoken about their racism ever changed was I became the target of their whispers behind their hand.
It was infinitely better in my mind because the truth is much cleaner and better to live by. Let them putrify in the company of their own kind.
Mister Ed
(5,944 posts)
Leith
(7,813 posts)Talking to them just gives them another opportunity to insult us and show us their hatred. Don't believe me? Then go over to Discussionist some time. Once ought to do it.
C Moon
(12,221 posts)their racist, hate-filled, bull crap.
Anyone who can listen to that and still reach out, has my utmost respect.
grumpyduck
(6,262 posts)to somebody who supports DT, but I would certainly consider trying to talk to someone who voted for him and expresses any kind of doubt or question about his choice.
Over the years, I've found out over and over that people don't like to admit they were wrong. I've seen it in government, social situations, schools, and so on and on, and sometimes they'll go to unbelievable lengths to defend the mistake by burying their head in the sand. It's like showing a weakness, and apparently showing a weakness is very un-American these days (or maybe it's always been that way).
For my money, I'd be tempted to try to convince them (the ones who voted for him and are now expressing doubts) that their crystal ball crashed in November '16, but that they can correct the error and vote the other way next time. A little child psychology from a non-shrink.
Actually a mass-media commercial along the lines of some of those depression-medication commercials (along with suitable music, a walk on the beach, and a dog; always a dog) might get some people to go the other way: "Hey, sometimes we make mistakes. It's all right. We've all done it. But you can always correct it." And at the end show a voting booth. Stuff like that but written by a high-end ad agency that knows what it's doing. I'd love to see that. 
mythology
(9,527 posts)You're certainly right about some people being so committed to their world view that they can't be reached. Often it's people who are convinced they can't be wrong and that no other point of view should be tolerated.
Locrian
(4,522 posts)2left4u
(186 posts)Divide and conquer.
Abandon our principles in favor of hate using the false basis.
1) When and where did anybody say more efforts should by applied to courting former Obama supporters who voted for Trump than to minority outreach?
2) When and where did anybody say those former supporters votes were more important than minorities votes?
How is a party that just 50 years ago was a party of exclusion (to people like myself of color), completely change and become the modern most inclusive party supporting not just Americans..a party including ALL (no matter if your even a citizen), a party that elected Obama twice on "They go low, we go high" a party that won the popular vote by how many millions more?
To now a party preaching hate, and pigeonholing?
This is divisive simple hate mongering counter to all the Progressive movement stands for and I'll say what others are afraid to say this smacks of race baiting bs.
hueymahl
(2,510 posts)Thanks. We are better than this.
LAS14
(13,783 posts)
stranger81
(2,345 posts)Before the last presidential election, I still harbored the illusion that the left side of the aisle was less prone to stereotyping, broad-brush judgments, and logical fallacies.
I stand corrected every time I peruse this board nowadays.
askyagerz
(776 posts)90% of my family are rednecks. They truly know not what they do. They might be pricks around their own kind but would give a minority the short off their back if they were cold. They are just isolated and brainwashed. Isolating them further isnt going to help this country's future in anyway.
They have to be talked to like humans even if they don't give us the same courtesy. Because that's the right thing to do. People stuck in bubbles can only change through examples from the outside.
These are your fellow citizens. Its really not their fault they have been raised in a toxic environment with sub par educations. Take the time and have the patience to help lead them to the light. Sure there are definitely some bad apples like in every batch but most are just ignorant to the ways of the world
LAS14
(13,783 posts)
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)and I voted "Leave".
Sid
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)The Wizard
(12,548 posts)There's no time to suffer fools. I just get dismissive.
ailsagirl
(22,899 posts)
lunamagica
(9,967 posts)melman
(7,681 posts)Okay.
IronLionZion
(45,530 posts)you know there's been some major upsets this past year in unlikely areas like Southwestern PA, Alabama, Virginia, and more.
Martin Eden
(12,875 posts)Many fell for his "populist" rhetoric and thought he really would bring manufacturing with good paying jobs back to America.
They were not all racists. Many are poorly informed, and some actually voted for Obama in 2008 & 2012.
The real question here pertains to the best strategy and allocation of resources for winning elections for Democrats in 2018, 2020, and going forward.
I agree it's a waste of time trying to persuade diehard Trumpbaggers and white nationalists.
Nor should we ever pander to bigotry or compromise our core principles.
I believe our best strategy for winning is to have a well defined set of core principles with a strong and consistent message backed up by practical effective policies which truly serve the interests of the American people -- and strong candidates to embody those principles.
I'm not saying the Democratic Party is totally lacking in principles or message, but electoral disasters going back to the 2010 midterms are a clear indication that we can do better and MUST do better.
Many factors contributed to the loss in 2016, and a significant part of that was a lack of trust in the Washington political establishment. I'm a 60 year old white male, and some teammates on my senior softball team who voted for Trump would have voted for Bernie if he was the Dem nominee. In no way shape or form am I trying to provoke a Bernie vs Hillary argument; I'm merely trying to illustrate that not all Trump voters are hopeless cases and that lack of trust & confidence in the political establishment played a factor.
Voter disaffection is based on perception, and perception is not reality. We need to improve the reality of the Democratic Party and close the gap with the false perceptions which have been manufactured through decades of successful framing by rightwing pundits and media sources.
Bottom line:
Appeal to ALL voters without pandering to bigotry. Tell the truth, but insulting people for how they voted in the past is counterproductive to a winning strategy and serves no purpose other than to indulge our anger.
ismnotwasm
(42,014 posts)That makes them bigots. Full stop. There is no side to this. There is no defense. You reach out all you want. I’m chasing the votes that matter.
Martin Eden
(12,875 posts)People are able to compartmentalize and to rationalize what appears to be indefensible.
You are entitled to believe that every single person who voted for Trump in 2016 is a sexist and a racist.
I know that is not true (as well as it is possible to know what is in another person's heart and mind).
Also, I made it quite clear we should not waste our time trying to persuade diehard Trumpbaggers and white nationalists.
I also specifically stated we should not pander to bigotry or compromise our principles.
In this context, "reach out" means the Democratic Party should bolster it's core principles and do its best to convince the American people we can be trusted to serve their interests (which does not include sexism & racism).
What is it you disagree with?
ismnotwasm
(42,014 posts)Anymore than having a black friend or a black grandchild does.
That being said, I think I am using a larger context, or perhaps a bigger conversation; one that includes established white supremacy, the entire concept of whiteness and of course white privilege. I am listening to the voices of people of color, because they got it right—especially Black women voters, and white voters got it so, so, abysmally wrong.
What I object to is soft-pedaling racism, sexism and bigotry. Trump didn’t hide what he was.
Martin Eden
(12,875 posts)Then we're in agreement.
LAS14
(13,783 posts)progressoid
(49,999 posts)
lunamagica
(9,967 posts)who for whatever reason, voted for this monster! They KNEW who he was, they KNEW he would be a nightmare for minorities, but they didn't care because that would not affect them. We DON'T need them.
GOTV!
Tom Rinaldo
(22,913 posts)To be blunt you are not running for any office and you do not have to thread the needle to find a way of winning the plurality of votes needed to get elected from a non minority majority district, without also selling out in the process. Having said that I absolutely believe that you have already put in more than your share of time trying to reach out to and/or understand bigots. But even putting that aside, victims of oppression have already been victims of oppression. That by itself is more than any person should be forced to deal with.
With the overwhelming majority of bigotry in America directed at People of Color by Whites, it is Whites who have to step forward to confront it. We don't have to twist ourselves into pretzels to understand it, we swim in a river polluted by it every day. We don't have to make special efforts to reach out to bigots even if we want to, we are surrounded by them already in our families, in our jobs, on our streets, on a daily basis.
I can say this about most Whites. We are mostly blind to our prejudices because we don't see/recognize them in their most virulent forms inside of us. We don't consciously believe that Whites are superior than People of Color, most of us don't anyway. Most of us are just as likely to try to free a black child from a car wreck as we are to try to free a white child from the exact same dangerous accident; just as likely to throw a rope to a black woman standing on the roof of their car during a flood as we are to throw that rope to a white woman. Therefor we think we can not possible be racist, and depending on how we all define that term, many of us, probably most of us, are not. But we can still be bigots, we can still be programmed by our prejudices not to see all of the injustice that surrounds us, to take part in it, and yes to benefit from it.
That unfortunately is "your problem" EffieBlack, in that you must cope with the consequences of that reality. But it is not your responsibility to address prejudice with anything other than condemnation. It is the responsibility of the Democratic Party in America to elect enough Democrats who stand against injustice in enough places so that government becomes an ally of the oppressed, not another instrument of that oppression.
radical noodle
(8,013 posts)as they watch Faux. They are, literally, brainwashed and nothing will change their minds because they're seeing the opposite on TV all day every day.
Agree 100% Effie
Decoy of Fenris
(1,954 posts)You repeatedly bring up "Racism", and "Racist", and voting for a racist, but let me clue you in; Not everyone's life revolves around race. In fact, that's probably true for a majority of America. For a not-insignificant number of people, you say "racism" and they'll roll their eyes and ignore you, simply because "Racism" has become the new Godwin's Law; call "Racist" first and you lose the discussion. Outrage Fatigue is a thing, and when you constantly say "racist, racist, racist", it becomes so much noise and is ignored regardless of the veracity of the claim. Such is the price of constant outrage, a price we paid in blood this past election.
Let me share some anecdotal stuff, of which I have more; This is just the pick of those closest to me, and who have disclosed their reasons for their votes. Anecdotal, yes, but nonetheless true on a micro scale. Probably true on a larger scale, too.
My old man is a staunch rural right-winger: He disliked Trump, but he was one of those who fell for the anti-Clinton propaganda. His vote for Trump wasn't about racism or sexism, but about having a businessman running the country as opposed to a career politician. Before the Dem convention, I had managed to sway him into the Sanders camp (using arguments of the public good being greater than an individual's needs or economic concerns); for a brief, flickering moment, and for the first time in history, my father was ready and willing to vote for a Democratic candidate. That ended when Clinton won the convention.
My mother and grandmother have been lifelong Democrats: Neither could, for whatever reason, vote for Clinton. It was the first election my grandmother has sat out in six decades; my mother voted for Trump because she felt she couldn't trust Clinton, but she hated the notion of not voting more than she disliked Trump. Two more votes lost.
My coworker pool leans slightly to the right, but only barely. The conversations drifted frequently back and forth from right to left and back again, but eventually, the average of the grouping seemed at least open to the idea of voting, again, for Sanders. The dialogue was polite, moreso than I ever expected given the circumstances. Yes, there were one or two outright Trump supporters, but they generally just left to themselves while the rest of us talked. All the politics talk ended post-Dem convention; there was no swaying them at that point. The majority, including many minority groups (Nepalese, Vietnamese, Chinese, Korean, Mexican, Cuban, and African-American immigrants) were onboard with Trump. Even now, I'm the only one on third shift who will cop to voting for Clinton.
These people are not unreachable, nor inflexible of opinion, nor are they racists solely for voting the way they did. My old man regrets his vote I suppose, but he moreso regrets that Trump was "his only option". My mother and grandmother? They're unapologetic, although they do wish Trump would rein in the social-media-ing. My coworkers? They range from "Lol actual leftwing tears" to "Even if I don't like what he's saying, I support the office of president and will work to make this country better."
You may be "Done" with Trump voters. That's your right and your prerogative, even if your opinions are based on fiction. When you're ready to join up with actual Democrats in the real world intent on winning over both apathetic non-voters and the more reasonable edges of the right-wing, you're welcome to move to the front of the bus with the rest of us. Until then, we're just going to move on, as we always do. We'll get the job done with or without you. Democrats -must- win the midterms and the next General, and if you're not with us, you're just in the way.
LAS14
(13,783 posts)... to the notion that you can use "all" in any intelligent discussion about voters. I'm not supporting Trump voters. I'm trying to support the idea that the left has an edge on intelligence.
Decoy of Fenris
(1,954 posts)2left4u
(186 posts)I'm with you.
ck4829
(35,091 posts)I don't see these Trump voters standing up against Muslim bans, against deportations, against a President who is more offended by nonviolent black people kneeling than violent white supremacists, where are they at? If they're not racist, they sure do seem to be OK with it. I don't think they're going to be of much help against voter suppression that will keep people away from the polls.
BeyondGeography
(39,380 posts)The poster you are responding to made the point that from the POV of many voters, race isn’t a major issue in their lives. You can scorn them for that, but as a practical political matter, it also means you can win some votes on economic issues. That includes candidates who stand for every issue you mention. The proof is Barack Obama, who doesn’t win by 10 million votes in 2008 and carry 14 of 15 swing states in 2012 without doing just that. He didn’t win deep red counties but he kept the margin from getting completely out of hand by winning enough persuadable independents. The alternative is losing the blue wall and getting blown out by 74 EVs.
2left4u
(186 posts)Love Trumps hate
BumRushDaShow
(129,483 posts)But almost EVERY POC's life DOES "revolve around race". It is an artificial construct that was imposed on those of us who are descendants from African countries (in the most extreme case), who were fucking dragged kicking and screaming here while others' ancestors came on their own volition - i.e., by choice.
It is the overlay that engulfs us every day. When we walk down the street, browse in a store, apply for a job, or try to vote.
The cultural ignorance, misinformation, disdain, and in some cases, abject hatred that was tragically magnified about us by the majority populace here, through every form of human expression known, has been a heavy burden that is near unshakeable. Even today, and even right here on DU.
And our concerns will NOT be dismissed. And we will stand with those who stand with US. But we will fight against those who don't. And we have fought and managed to survive a literal 400 years of an American holocaust (that HAS NOT STOPPED) because of that fight and those allies who stood with us.
Paladin
(28,273 posts)I think it may very well be an effort to get us to deflect time and resources towards people who are not entitled to our efforts.
lunamagica
(9,967 posts)getting alerted (It happened to me). But yes, the more time we spend making nice with trumpsters, the less time we have to GOTV
dalton99a
(81,590 posts)not necessarily in that order
I'm suspicious of people creating division and changing facts.
Fact: nobody has said get Trump supporters and racists.
What has been said is that we need the voters who voted for Obama both times and then voted for Trump to come back to the party....that's it.
The rest of this is hateful pigeinholing race baiting bigotry.
Digest who those who supported Obama twice and switched their vote are...remind yourself that the DNC spent a lot of time and capital to achieve the vote for Obama and build a Democratic base.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/09/hillary-clinton-failed-to-win-over-black-hispanic-and-female-vot/amp/
We need ALL those voters back.
Nobody has said compromising values, or wooing racists, bigots or wasting time on white supremacists or that the white vote is more important than the minority vote race baiting bs.
From the article it would appear that the vote we failed to get was of all colors.
LAS14
(13,783 posts)... your decision about whether to spend time and money going after Trump voters would be influenced in large measure by where you live. Don't focus on Trump voters if you live in Harlem. Do pay careful attention to where they're coming from if you live in Alabama. This is to those DUers who plan on spending time and money.
The other thing is that so much DU energy has been spent describing the Trump base in response to people who urge us to pay some mind to Trump voters. Not the same thing, although there's a huge overlap, of course.
The one-note "call all Trump voters racist" brigade sounds a bit like a Russian dirty trick to divide Democrats, even if it's unintentional. It's better to highlight the need to win more votes, everywhere, from every voter, and stop dismissing the liklihood that some Trump voters will vote Democratic in the future, especially if a clear message is articulated that is forward looking and motivating to all, or at least to many.
At the end of the day, we are one country, like it or not. You can only go so far forward without some support or at least acquiescence from multiple sides of the spectrum. Reaching out to others seems to be a lost art, and we shouldn't give up on it in favor of 24/7 outrage.
LAS14
(13,783 posts)sheshe2
(83,908 posts) 
gay texan
(2,474 posts)(As seen on Facebook)
The last presidential election was a test of character. If you voted for Trump, you failed that test miserably....
Locrian
(4,522 posts)Do you really want to weaponize them into a true american taliban? We aren't even close to what will happen if we (the smarter ones - supposedly) do nothing except allow them to divide us all.
So don't sympathize, don't like them, I don't care - but find a way to deal with them by being smart about it.
They do not respond to logic - so where are all the emotional appeals? Call it tricking them, call it liberal propaganda *I* *don't* *freaking* *care*
I keep saying this but we (as in this planet) will not survive if we all do not find a collective way to get our shit together.
Ignoring the problem and letting it fester is like not treating cancer or a gaping chest wound.
LAS14
(13,783 posts)EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)proves the truth of exactly what I'm talking about. You seem really invested in your mission ...
LAS14
(13,783 posts)EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Your "baloney, baloney, baloney" post was a tell ...
ck4829
(35,091 posts)I'm white and I support the black lives matter movement.
*They* are the ones offended by it, *They* are the ones upset by black people kneeling.
I have a Somali Muslim-American woman in my extended family and I have nothing but love for her.
*They* are the ones who question her patriotism, and the more extreme ones question her rights. *They* are the ones who think we should have a "clash of civilizations" with her entire religion.
I'm living in the year 2018, as is nearly everyone else.
*They* are the ones who think we should go back in time to some over-romanticized era that really only exists in their minds; whether it's the 1950's or "Before the civil war, even though there was 'some' slavery"
I'm broke and living paycheck to paycheck, just because there are times I go to bed hungry didn't mean I automatically became less progressive, I didn't see people who were not like me as less worthy.
*They* are the ones cheering on Muslim bans, bans against transgenders in the military, deportations, "owning the libs", or trying to make some sort of crazy accusation against black people as a whole. Or they're being silent about it. But it's OK for them, they have "economic anxiety".
Point is and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one like this... I can get along with people of other races, religions, sexual orientations and identities just fine, the problem seems to lie with them.
whathehell
(29,092 posts)
argyl
(3,064 posts)Convincing many of them that their vote can count is usually sufficient to get them to the polls.
Trump voters are for the most part dense, dumb, and don’t have the sense to vote their best interests.
2left4u
(186 posts)EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)And they are too fickle to be trusted to actually vote Democratic when they get into the polling booth.
I prefer focusing on a sure thing - voters who will vote Democratic if we can just make sure they get out to vote and that their vote is counted.
2left4u
(186 posts)We just need to help the "confused" back to the right path
argyl
(3,064 posts)I worked around them for 30 years. Got tired of flossing over their racism, misogyny, Islamophobia, gun humping idiocy, and all around stupidity.
I’m not up to it anymore. I’m tired of banging my head against a rock trying to convince them of the error of their ways.
I grew up with people like them, worked with them, and I give up.
I’m a 60+y.o. white male in Texas and many in my demographic are good citizens who want what is best for the country as a whole.
But Trump humpers? We’re looking at 30%35% of the country and those will decrease. But we don’t have to actively court them. We don’t need them; they’re an ever decreasing minority.
And any more attrition in Trump’s numbers will be due to the dog shit dumb things he says or does and not by reasoning with them. He’ll disenfranchise his base all by himself.
Response to EffieBlack (Original post)
goldenheart This message was self-deleted by its author.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Last edited Mon Mar 19, 2018, 08:33 PM - Edit history (1)
want to?
They'll be much happier in the Republican Party and I'm more than happy to let them stay over there.
goldenheart
(168 posts)Trying to communicate with the Trump Supporters is a useless endeavor I'm sure. If we thought the Tea Party was impossible, Trump supporters are off the richter scale clueless.
Glamrock
(11,802 posts)
BlueWI
(1,736 posts)There has to be a bloody strand of tissue somewhere on this carcass to flail away at.
Skittles
(153,193 posts)*END OF STORY*
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)But continuing to support a racist despite incontrovertible evidence that he is indeed a racist and ignoring the entreaties of minorities to PLEASE stop supporting him makes one extremely suspect ...
Oneironaut
(5,524 posts)I don't believe somebody that stupid can be redeemed. Even if they stopped supporting Trump, it would be momentary - they'll just attach themselves to the next slobbering moron that the populist sewer spits out.
I care about the people who are on the fence. They might have voted for Trump just because they didn't like Hillary, or wanted a Republican in after a Democrat, but they can still be brought back. A lot of those people still vote for Democrats.
Abu Pepe
(637 posts)and dismantle liberal democracy. Its a good policy until they actually get enough support to do it.
FreepFryer
(7,077 posts)Abu Pepe
(637 posts)See the problem? I see the danger but cracking down on speech is too counterintuitive and probably more dangerous. If forced to choose authoritarian masters I would go with the commies (at least I could finaly get my Trump supporting friends the helathcare they dont want.)
All that liberal democracy beating the Fascist and the Soviets in the great battle of systems was complete bullshit. Fascism seems to grow organically because it has no real idoelogy, just raw force and power. Marxism Leninism will make a comeback as an ironic reaction to the reactionaries. Were gonna fight the same wars of the 20th Century but with more lethality and a switching around of who the players are somewhat. But Liberal Democracy v. Fascism never ended. We thought it had.
FreepFryer
(7,077 posts)A ban is an easy foil on which opponents will focus if they don't want to face the hard work of actually de-Nazifying the country... but after their brazen reinvigoration by American white supremacists, marching under the hood and the symbols of Nazism should not be tolerated here any more than in Germany.
Abu Pepe
(637 posts)until one alpha gives a bunch of others permission to speek and do the heretofore unacceptable. This sometimes is good for the species, like MLK but often with dire consequences for many Hitler, Stalin. Not sure what the reason for this is but it seems real. We do that.
FreepFryer
(7,077 posts)FreepFryer
(7,077 posts)
BlueJac
(7,838 posts)
Nitram
(22,890 posts)and in hope that he could make good on his promises. Some of those people just voted for Lamb in PA. We do need to get those people back, the ones who strayed from the path of righteousness and took a chance on a long shot. "Trump supporters" are irredeemably deplorable.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Yes, there is a difference between Trump voters and Trump supporters. My point is not directed at all Trump voters but to anyone who now, after all they know, still support him.
I have no problem reaching out to former Trump voters - those who regret their choice, will not vote for him again and are just looking for another alternative. But those people don't need to be chased after or coddled. They've already come out of the cold and are looking for someone to come get them. But I'll be damned if I'm going to run over to their side and try to talk their supporter friends into voting Democratic.
Nitram
(22,890 posts)Die hard supporters are toxic.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Since I can’t tell them apart. The ones who want to be rescued need to identify themselves - we shouldn’t have to run into the belly of the beast and waste time with people who are still ok with Trump.
I have no problem reaching out to people who are receptive to outreach. But they have to reach out, too - and given the circumstances, they need to meet us more than halfway. But I’m not going to and I don’t want my party to go chasing around after anyone and everyone who voted for Trump hoping that we can cull a few converts.
Conor Lamb did the former and it worked. He didn’t go out and actively campaign to Trump supporters - he left them the hell alone because he probably knew it was a waste of time. Instead, he put out a message and platform that was very progressive for his district and offered a viable alternative to disillusioned Trump voters. I sincerely doubt, however, that he converted many, if any at all, people who were still supporting Trump when they first heard Lamb’s message.
Nitram
(22,890 posts)Pennsylvania after Trump came down and campaigned for his Republican opponent. The Trump voters who have stopped defending Trump. The Trump voters who have publicly admitted they were fooled.
"I sincerely doubt, however, that he converted many, if any at all, people who were still supporting Trump when they first heard Lamb’s message." That's the point! There is a world of difference between a Trump voter (someone who voted for Trump in 2016), and a Trump supporter (someone who still defends Trump and would vote for him again).
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Exactly!
Not sure why this is so difficult for some folk to grasp.
Or maybe they know this but it’s irrelevant to their agenda
Nitram
(22,890 posts)All I want right now is a majority in both houses of Congress. I want my ACA, I want my Social Security, I want my immigrant neighbors to be safe, I want women to have control over their own bodies, I want every citizen to have equal rights.
2left4u
(186 posts)The individuals that voted for Obama twice and then Trump are certainly having buyers remorse now.
We just need to be sure and leave the door open for them versus calling them names, and pigeonholing giving them one of two options: Stay with Trump or don't vote at all.
I do think we've exhausted the subject now and all come together on that part.
Now lets focus our efforts to your point on the minority out reach so we are successful there too.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Trump was an innocent mistake is crazy. We need to make clear that staying with Trump is shame-worthy and indefensible.
2left4u
(186 posts)I do think that the he went full racist after being elected which then those 'confused' individuals who voted for him got stuck with.
They should be reminded that this time there is no excuse..I agree
Nitram
(22,890 posts)back if they realize they made a mistake.
IronLionZion
(45,530 posts)After the several upset victories for us in Trump districts we should take a break?
They already got their tax cuts. If people are going to vote, it's better if they vote Dem this November. Local elections are less partisan. Dems can pick up more house seats and state legislature seats. Make America Sane Again.
Cary
(11,746 posts)Therefore their ideology leaves no room for any compromise with "Liberal." As Goebels famously said: "We decide who is Jewish," so they decide who is "Liberal."
"Conservatives" are not conservative. "Conservatives" are to the right of conservatives, and what is to the right of Conservatives?
Fascists.
Joe Kennedy ended his political career for being an appeaser. Fascists view "Liberals" as degrading to society by bringing in the inferior elements.
This is as dangerous as an ideology gets. They are to be defeated, not negotiated.
mcar
(42,374 posts)because he'll drain the swamp, or because I want a businessman in charge.
You are so right, Effie. It's all bullshit.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)we’re disappointed that he didn’t deliver all the hope and change they expected in his first term.
First, I don’t believe that most of these people really voted for Obama - since I find it hard to believe that anyone who would vote for a Barack Obama would turn around and vote for the likes of Trump. It even if they did, the double standard in expectations reveals more about them than they probably think. The black guy who never promised perfection but encouraged us all to work together toward a more perfect union and did his best to move us forward with honor, dignity, commitment, two arms tied behind his back and a concerted effort to thwart, block and undermine him at every turn, didn’t singlehandedly deliver us a Nirvana, so they turned on him to vote for an ignorant, racist, morally compromised, hateful, incompetent, lying, but white, guy.
Doesn’t speak well for them at all.
brer cat
(24,606 posts)K&R
tazkcmo
(7,300 posts)Huh. Some people just have too much free time. Or is it paid?
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)tazkcmo
(7,300 posts)And some a career. Judging by recent election results and polling data, it's a dying endeavor anyway.