Uber Self-Driving Car Hits and Kills Arizona Pedestrian

[MineralMan]

But, see, it's OK, because she was jaywalking. She broke the law. How would an Uber self-driving car have anticipated that someone might be jaywalking? People never jaywalk, see.

That's the argument some are making. I call bullshit on that argument. I cannot even count the number of times I have stopped for a jaywalker, even some who have suddenly stepped out from between two parked cars. See, I'm a human, and I know that people do that, so I watch out for people standing between cars. Kids chasing balls, too. Dogs running out into the street.

In 55 years of driving, I have never hit anyone. Not a pedestrian. Not another car. Not a dog or a deer. I've avoided all of those things and way more than once. Way.

The human brain has excellent heuristic capabilities. An alert driver is always watching for the unexpected. I'm an alert driver. I'm human. So far, I've had zero accidents that involved collisions with anything. Heuristics. Human heuristics.

I don't want to kill a jaywalking woman. So, I watch for people who might do that. It's a thing. It happens.

Uber cars, apparently, can't see the woman who is going to walk out into the street in the middle of the block. That isn't apparently in it's AI heuristic model.

Screw that. That jaywalking woman is dead because she was killed by a machine that supposedly had AI. Not very bright AI, apparently..

[jberryhill]

1. How do you explain this?

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix-breaking/2016/08/04/phoenix-car-hits-pedestrian-central-near-camelback/88057038/

Phoenix pedestrian struck, killed by cab on Central Ave.

The cab driver, who was not cited, had been going the posted speed limit of 35 mph when he struck the pedestrian mid-block, Rath said.

"I'm sure (he's) shaken up — a man went through his windshield," Rath told a Discount Cab representative.

Phoenix police spokesman Vince Lewis said the driver remained on scene after the accident and showed no signs of impairment.

Lewis added that the dark clothing of the pedestrian combined with time of night made made the visibility of the pedestrian difficult.

How is that even possible?

[MineralMan]

4. Why should I explain it?

The pedestrian is dead.

[jberryhill]

9. Did that cabdriver want to kill a jaywalker?

[pnwmom]

35. Most likely he got distracted by something. That's how many accidents occur. n/t

[jberryhill]

40. And many others are caused by speeding or failure to obey stop signs and lights

Both of those causes are categorically eliminated by autonomous vehicles.

[lame54]

5. Not sure where you are heading with this

[jberryhill]

8. Data is not the plural of anecdote

There will be fatal accidents with autonomous vehicles.

There are fatal accidents with non-autonomous vehicles.

While I realize there are people who will continue to believe the visually impaired should not have access to personal transportation, absent a comparison of actual statistical risk, the fact that a fatal accident occurred with an autonomous vehicle is not really relevant to what the comparative statistical risk may be.

[ProudLib72]

26. Oh Jesus, jberry. I agree, but how do you propose we collect the data, in the lab or the street?

Sure, at some point they must be released into the real world; however, I have to agree with MM that that time has not yet come.

[jberryhill]

30. Im not familiar with the body of existing data

In terms of miles/fatality, there is probably a decent data set so far as a rough measure between humans and robots. How that breaks down for various particular scenarios and environments, I don’t know. Neither do you or the OP, who are both happy with an irrational emotional reaction to this article.

I’ll say this, though, I log about 75 miles a week on a bicycle and I virtually never stop at a red light where there isn’t some human fucking around with a phone.

[pnwmom]

37. The difference is that self-driving cars come with programming instructions

that do not always anticipate every situation.

Humans also don't anticipate every situation but they are better at exercising quick judgment when they encounter something unexpected -- as long as they have been driving from the beginning. Unfortunately, they've already learned that when a non-driving human is behind the wheel of a self-driving car, there is a lag time in their taking over in an emergency; they usually don't respond quickly enough to make a difference.

[jberryhill]

38. Which is also no substitute for data

Humans kill 40,000 a year in this country with cars.

Do you believe that number would increase or decrease with autonomous vehicles?

[pnwmom]

39. Eventually self-driving cars might be safer. I haven't seen the data yet. And neither

has anyone else.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/14/opinion/self-driving-cars.html

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0965856416302129

[lame54]

2. So they are not prepared for everyday reality

[Hassin Bin Sober]

14. Neither are the thousands of drugged, drunk and exhausted people on the road at any given minute

Oh yeah, and the people with undiagnosed impaired vision and elderly overstaying their ability to drive.

Other than that...

Oh yeah, not to mention people with untreated health issues, including but not limited to, diabetes, stroke, heart disease, narcolepsy, colds, fever, spastic twitching, nerve pain, nerve insensitivity, gout and severe flatulence.

Other than that....

[mythology]

17. Or the idiot texting

Or the new driver who doesn't know better.

[Mariana]

44. In everyday reality, some accidents are unavoidable.

Pedestrians get hit by cars and are killed. That's just a fact. Often it is the driver's fault, one way or another. But, sometimes it is impossible for a driver, who is doing everything right, to prevent such a collision from happening. It's possible this was one of those situations. We just don't know.

[lame54]

46. These must be held to a higher standard

[underpants]

3. As I said on the other thread - this will be an issue in the blind community

They are pushing for hybrids, that cut off when they are stopped, to have some sort of noise maker. So far Totoya has been receptive but haven’t made changes due mostly, I think, to added cost.

The blind and low vision community is about 1% of the population - about equal to the number of people in the military.

[jberryhill]

6. Depends on what you mean by "this"

My stepdaughter is blind.

The ridiculous operation of paratransit in her area, which is as unreliable as it is often unsafe, is certainly an issue.

By "this", do you mean the unavailability of basic transportation to the visually impaired?

[underpants]

11. Wow jberry I didnt know we had that link

Yes paratransit is a mess. The people I work with deal with it on a daily basis. Where I live 30 minutes in a car is a looong trip but the local paratransit operation can take 2 hours to get someone 5 Miles. It’s under a new contractor but it’s still up to each bus driver.

I was just trying to highlight the blind LV element for people to consider.

Not sure how old she is but does your stepdaughter use a cane? BTW - O&M instructor is a can’t miss - work anywhere - signing bonus - robotproof job. I’m trying to convince my daughter to go that route but she’s in middle school.

[jberryhill]

13. Yes, PA has a cane law

...because whether she can navigate through other cues, there are potential liability issues that shift if the pedestrian is using a cane.

Most of the time, she'll just carry it. She navigates well, but has a tendency to walk really fast, so the cane is more of a warning along the lines of "caution, crazy blind woman careening forward."

http://www.acb.org/whitecane

Pennsylvania
State Law and Penalty:
Section 3549. Blind pedestrians.

(a) General rule.--The driver of a vehicle shall yield the right-of-way to any totally or partially blind pedestrian carrying a clearly visible white cane or accompanied by a guide dog and shall take such precautions as may be necessary to avoid injuring or endangering the pedestrian and, if necessary, shall stop the vehicle in order to prevent injury or danger to the pedestrian.

(b) Effect of absence of cane or dog.--This section shall not be construed to deprive a totally or partially blind pedestrian not carrying a cane or not being guided by a dog of the rights and privileges conferred by law upon pedestrians crossing streets or highways, nor shall the failure of a totally or partially blind pedestrian to carry a cane or to be guided by a guide dog upon the streets, highways or sidewalks of this Commonwealth be held to constitute contributory negligence in and of itself.

(c) Penalty.--A violation of subsection (a) constitutes a summary offense punishable by a fine of not less than $50 nor more than $150.

[underpants]

15. Yes that is one of functions of the cane

Info to the user and info to the public.

Wall mounted Defibrillators and tree branches are a mother. When I was going through my training I almost caught a defibrillator right in the teeth.i just stopped short of it. My instructor, on a street she’d been in a thousand times, wasn’t aware of the tree branch I took in the face. She was maybe 5’1”.

[NCTraveler]

7. Some people have hit someone else on their first day of driving.

"In 55 years of driving, I have never hit anyone."

New technology always need improving. It's clearly the case here.

[CanonRay]

10. 50 years ago this summer in Chicago, I hit a little kid

who ran out from between two parked cars. I was 16 and cruising with my girlfriend. Kid was about 6-7, and fortunately, other than a bruise to his thigh from my pointy bumper (65 Chevy) was not hurt. I was going about 15 in a 20, lucky for him and for me. Never saw him until it was way too late. The father was irate but the cops calmed him down and told him if I'd been speeding his kid would be dead. I got a fail to yield ticket that was later thrown out.

To this day I can see it clearly, him going down under the front end, and if I see a child anywhere near a curb, I'm braking. Self driving cars won't do that.

[ecstatic]

20. +1000. I don't know why some people seem to be blindly regurgitating the talking points

of profit-driven corporations. I'd ask those people to name one piece of technology that has worked perfectly with no glitches, etc. In addition to the driving and not killing anyone part, there's also the mechanical/engineering aspect of cars and we've seen how many people have been killed due to manufacturer/parts defects. How will the AI "driver" respond to failing brakes, a tire blowout, a firetruck or ambulance passing on a crowded street? Will it ever try to avoid accidents? How would it choose which target to hit in the event of an unavoidable collision? Those are some things we deserve to be informed about. Also, who is providing all these safety numbers and statistics based on the relatively low amount of testing / data collection that has been done with self-driving cars? And can these companies guarantee that, once approved for mass production, they will maintain the same or HIGHER standards in the cars that aren't pre-tested in the field?

[Egnever]

22. 90% of all accidents are human error

90%

if we can mitigate a quarter of that we save hundreds of thousands a year.

Nope technology is not prefect ever. but then neither are humans and in many cases they are horribly flawed.

The question isn't are they perfect. The question is are they substantially better. So far the majority of evidence points to yes.

[Dem2]

21. I got a chill reading this

I lost a brother who was 9 at the time, otherwise it was exactly as you describe, except the car was going much faster. I think it was over 30 years before I could talk about it. :/

[MineralMan]

33. I live on a street where dozens of children live.

Speed limit is 30 mph. I drive maybe 15 mph on it, and am always looking for kids who are outdoors. No way am I going hit a child. Other people drive 40 mph. Nuts.

[jberryhill]

41. Same here

Complete with kids and a curve with bushes near the curb.

The crazy thing?

After years of worrying about my kids being hit in the street, they got driver's licenses, and... damn if they didn't understand the need to go slow around that curve. One of my neighbors let me know that one of my kids regularly took that curve too fast despite my warnings and I took my son out to have a chat with the neighbors to tell him first hand and in no uncertain terms. Worked.

[tonedevil]

12. This is such a big thing...

because as everyone knows no pedestrians have ever been struck by a car piloted by a human.

[mythology]

16. This isn't an accurate way to measure

You have been lucky. You can chalk it up to skill all you like, but in the end there is a distance for every speed at which it isn't physically possible to stop in time.

Also of note, there was a safety driver in the car. They didn't stop the car either.

Maybe there is a problem with the automation software. Maybe it was a problem with the pedestrian stepping out between two cars too late to be saved.

[Locut0s]

18. Self driving cars don't have to be perfect. They only have to be better than the average person....

Self driving cars ARE going to kill people. Statistically it's going to happen. But we need them on the road because statistically they are going to be much better drivers than the average human driver. Self driving cars don't drink and drive, don't speed, don't get tired. And yes they ARE programmed to look out for unexpected obstacles like jay walkers, dogs etc. They have now collectively driven millions of km on all kinds of roads and the number of accidents and fatalities is extremely low. A self driving car ONLY needs to be better than the average human driver for them to save thousands of lives once implemented on large scales. And they are going to become much much better than the average driver, indeed they already are in most cases. What happened in this specific case may be a software error or some specific edge case that they need to work on. They can and will need to be improved. But that doesn't mean they aren't going to take over and improve driving for all.

[TheFrenchRazor]

25. how many hours of driving did that car have before it killed somebody? i've been a delivery driver f

for 25 years, been driving for 37, and i've never killed anybody. never even caused an accident; only been involved in 1, which was not my fault; the other driver ran a stop sign, and given the terrain and other traffic, i was unable to avoid hitting this car. they were cited; i was not. bottom line is; we don't NEED self-driving cars. more technology is not always better.

[spinbaby]

32. Collectively they have a lot of hours

We’ve had self-driving cars on the road in Pittsburgh for a while now. If you call an Uber, there’s a small chance it will be a self-driving car.

[ecstatic]

19. There'd be a lot of deaths if they brought that to my community

Not only is there a lot of unexpected jaywalking, but the culprits are usually wearing all black or very dark colors. And the lighting is very low at night. Recipe for disaster!

[Egnever]

23. Self driving cars do not really rely on lighting.

they use radar and lasers with sight thrown in for things like states of traffic signals and road signs. They don't really use sight or light for maintaining the maping of everything around them.

[TheFrenchRazor]

24. the more "technology," the better, right? not from where i'm sitting. nt

[Glassunion]

27. In the time since this accident occurred,

manned vehicles have struck 150 pedestrians, and killed 10 of them.

14% of all traffic fatalities are pedestrians.
34% of all pedestrian deaths involve alcohol impairment by the pedestrian.
Annually, about 129,000 pedestrians are struck by manned vehicles.

[former9thward]

31. Please don't bring facts into a "let's attack technology" thread.

[gratuitous]

43. As long as we're dealing in facts

Well, there is a risk in driving, no doubt. There are about 12.5 fatalities per billion miles driven in the United States in 2016 (the pertinent citation is at footnote 11):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transportation_safety_in_the_United_States

Currently, self-driving vehicles are averaging . . . slightly more. About 333 deaths per billion miles:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bizcarson/2017/12/22/ubers-self-driving-cars-2-million-miles/#f0dc01ea4fe4

Is this a fair comparison? Probably not. It's important to realize that self-driving cars are so far operating only under only the most optimal conditions, with on-board human monitors

[alphafemale]

28. But this dead human reached breeding age without learning to look both ways.

She would likely have been just as dead with a human driver.

I imagine a self-driving car would not try to pass a school bus with flashing lights over the curb.

[Binkie The Clown]

29. And the war between man and machine heats up.

?x=442&y=293&crop=1

[Takket]

34. the cars are supposed to be constantly scanning for obstructions......

so we'll have to wait for the details of what went wrong here. to be honest of all the things i've wondered how a self driving car would handle, the "kid chasing a ball into the street" is at the top of the list. it happens SO FAST and you have to see something that is going on NOT in the road to be able to stop from hitting the kid. i don't know how much scanning these cars do of objects NOT in the road but in some cases the person is not in the road until the instant your car gets there, and then it is too late.

It might sound cold, but things like that are going to happen in the development of self driving technology but in the long run they SHOULD result in less deaths.

[MineralMan]

36. Not much comfort for the victim's family I think.

A woman walking a bicycle is dead. A victim. I'm more concerned that she's dead than about autonomous cars. I saw video of the location. No parked cars there. No parking on that street. She was visible at the side of the road.

Now, she's dead. A victim.

[Takket]

42. Video released of the moments before impact...........

at the link..........

https://www.abc15.com/news/region-southeast-valley/tempe/watch-tempe-police-release-video-of-deadly-uber-crash

Tempe police chief comments......

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/tempe/2018/03/20/tempe-police-chief-fatal-uber-crash-pedestrian-likely-unavoidable/442829002/

Police have said the Volvo had a video camera that recorded the crash. The Volvo was traveling about 40 mph and made no visible attempt to brake in the video, Elcock said.

The speed limit in the area is 35 mph.

"It's very clear it would have been difficult to avoid this collision in any kind of mode (autonomous or human-driven) based on how she came from the shadows right into the roadway," Moir told the San Francisco Chronicle after viewing the footage.

A large median at the site of the crash has signs warning people not to cross mid-block and to use the crosswalk to the north at Curry Road instead. But the median also has a brick pathway cutting through the desert landscaping that accommodates people who do cross at that site.

[treestar]

45. I agree; there's a legal definition about the last clear chance

to avoid an accident; you are supposed to take it if you can.