Notice that...

[sheshe2]

Notice that those posters who are so concerned about "alienating" white male Trump voters aren't concerned at all about alienating POC/women. The unspoken message is that white voters are more important than non-white voters.

Why are women/POC told they must cater to white male voters, but white male voters are never told they must cater to women/POC?

Side note: Many of those "think of the white males!" posters are the same ones who constantly post about needing to purge powerful women from our party, like Dianne Feinstein, Hillary Clinton, Nancy Pelosi, etc...in favor of (younger and inexperienced) white men.

Posted by a friend with permission.

......................

Black Voters in Alabama Pushed Back Against the Past

Exit polling shows 98 percent of female African-American voters supported Doug Jones in the Senate election in Alabama. We spoke to some of them to learn what was so important to them in this election.

BIRMINGHAM, Ala. — The word traveled, urgently and insistently, along the informal networks of black friends, black family and black co-workers: Vote.
Joanice Thompson, 68, a retired worker at the University of Alabama at Birmingham, scrolled Tuesday through the text messages on her phone from relatives reminding each other what needed to be done. Byron Perkins, 56, a trial lawyer, said his Facebook feed was clogged with photos of friends sporting the little “I Voted” stickers given out at polling places. Casie Baker, 29, a bank worker, said her family prodded and cajoled and hectored each other until the voting was done.

snip

They said they were motivated by the specific fears that Mr. Moore would help President Trump cut government aid programs, reduce access to health care and neglect criminal justice reform. But they also voted out of a more general concern that the country, in the Trump era, was going back to a place best left in the past.

“There’s no state in America where black people recognize the horrors of turning back the clock more than the State of Alabama,” said Bryan Stevenson, the founder of the Equal Justice Initiative, which is based in Montgomery. “There is a consciousness about this history in the African-American community.”

snip

According to CNN exit polling, 30 percent of the electorate was African-American, with 96 percent of them voting for Mr. Jones. (Mr. Jones’s backers had felt he needed to get north of 25 percent to have a shot to win.) A remarkable 98 percent of black women voters supported Mr. Jones. The share of black voters on Tuesday was higher than the share in 2008 and 2012, when Barack Obama was on the ballot.

Read More: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/13/us/doug-jones-alabama-black-voters.html

.........................................

POC/Women are people too. They fully understand the consequences of their vote. They were out in Alabama in record numbers exceeding turnout for Obama in 2008 and 2012. Love the article stating that they networked with friends and family to make it so. They were fully aware of the need to vote. They knew the issues and they voted accordingly. There was no need to coddle, bribe, beg or hold their hand to lead them to the voting booth. The old saying goes that you can lead a horse to water, yet not get them to drink...true as well with leading voters to the booth, yet not getting them to vote for their best interests.

You have to ask yourself why? What do POC and women know or want that white men do not? Why are POC/Women more informed? The answer is history, past and present. We also waited and fought one hell of a long time for the right to vote, one that was given to white men a long time ago and it was given freely without a fight. We POC/women value what we fought for.

[Squinch]

1. K and R. Good questions all around.

[pandr32]

2. Good post

[malaise]

3. Effie Black had a very good thread on this

[sheshe2]

6. I love Effie.

I read and posted.

Thanks malaise.

[EffieBlack]

35. Awww - I love you, too!

[sheshe2]

53. Your posts have been awesome.

I have been a little out of it to respond.
Love ya~

[EffieBlack]

54. Thanks - I really appreciate that!

[ck4829]

4. A K&R from a white guy living paycheck to paycheck who apparently needs to be reached out to

And I say "Find a cure for affluenza", stop treating women like chattel, have a healthcare sector that matches our economy, pay people more, that black lives matter, fight for GLBTQ rights, and Muslim-Americans are my fellow Americans.

Come on politicians and pundits, coddle me, I dare you.

[sheshe2]

7. Bwahahaha

And I say "Find a cure for affluenza"..........

Great post, ck4829.

[NCTraveler]

8. Beautiful. Nt

[tblue37]

5. K&R for visibility. nt

[Hermit-The-Prog]

9. 4 black girls

I'm betting that some of those voters were old enough to remember the 1963 church bombing and Doug Jones successfully prosecuting two KKK members sometime in the '90s.

[blake2012]

10. I am a straight white male voter and agree with you

[sheshe2]

16. Thank you blake, some of us grow.

Some of us wallow and blame any and everyone for our problems. Interesting isn't it?

Again, thank you.

[mcar]

11. Nail - head

Why are women/POC told they must cater to white male voters, but white male voters are never told they must cater to women/POC?

Side note: Many of those "think of the white males!" posters are the same ones who constantly post about needing to purge powerful women from our party, like Dianne Feinstein, Hillary Clinton, Nancy Pelosi, etc...in favor of (younger and inexperienced) white men.

White male privilege at its best.

[sheshe2]

19. WHITE MALE PRIVILEDGE AT IT'S BEST.

Nail-Head, mcar.

[brer cat]

12. K&R

[Cha]

13. POC are the Democratic Base.. they're

faithful, and they know progress can be slow but steady.

I have nothing but my profound deep appreciation for them.

Excellent point.. POC and Women fought for their right to vote.. the men not at all.. in fact didn't many of them fight to keep women and POC From Voting?

I wonder if they'd be trump voters today?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_suffrage_in_the_United_States

Unbelievable Yet True Justifications Men Used To Keep Women From Voting

If Women Vote, The Human Race Will End

Women Are Too Emotional To Be Responsible Voters

Women Don’t Need To Vote Because Men Will Always Vote With Their Interests In Mind

More..
https://www.ranker.com/list/historical-reasons-women-were-not-allowed-to-vote/tamar-altebarmakian

Mahalo for the OP, she..

[ProudLib72]

21. Didn't Charles Barkley have something to say about this?

I believe he did...

Charles Barkley on Jones projected win: 'This is a wake-up call for Democrats'
Washington (CNN)Former NBA player Charles Barkley said Tuesday night that Democrat Doug Jones' victory is "a wake-up call for Democrats."

Speaking to CNN's Jake Tapper from Jones' election night party, Barkley said Democrats have "taken the black vote and the poor vote for granted for a long time."

"It's time for them to get off their ass and start making life better for black folks and people who are poor," Barkley said.
https://www.cnn.com/2017/12/13/politics/charles-barkley-doug-jones-cnn-tv/index.html

This was the first time the sentiment really struck home for me: "Hmmmm, so we Dems take our base for granted? Hmmmm, we need to start paying more attention."

[Cha]

22. I don't think we do.. I know Hillary didn't

What's going on now is not coming from the Democratic Party.

[sheshe2]

23. I do not remember a white man...

I do not remember a white man arrested to deny their vote, do you? They got theirs free and clear. I do not remember a white man arrested, imprisoned in an asylum, beaten and force fed for their audacity for wanting to vote. Do you?

Their justifications are bullshit, Cha. Yet, we know that.

[smirkymonkey]

14. I've been noticing that too. Thanks for your post!

[lunamagica]

15. I asked that question on another thread, Sheshe

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=10380927

*Crickets*

[EffieBlack]

37. At least you got crickets

Usually such a discussion brings out the concerned Democrats warning us that we fail to coddle these people at our peril, with no shortage of sarcasm, snark and sanctimony.

[sheshe2]

57. Nappy change.

Aisle 4.

[EffieBlack]

60. HaHa

[BumRushDaShow]

17. Gigantic K&R

[Tribalceltic]

18. Kick and Recomend

[iluvtennis]

20. Thanks for sharing this - right on point.

[Egnever]

24. Seems to be saying they voted out of fear.

something the Republicans have been using for decades to win votes. This time it worked against them.

So what does this say about motivations going forward?

Seems to be making the argument that the way to win the POC vote is to scare the crap out of them. The answer according to this does not seem to be address actual issues just make them afraid of the republicans.

Pretty clear why POC would vote against moore. He was calling for returning them to slavery. Not voting against that would be troubling indeed.

The answer isn't you are smarter or know more history the answer is you have more to fear.

Pretty shitty way to run a country if you ask me.

[sheshe2]

25. No.

Seems to be making the argument that the way to win the POC vote is to scare the crap out of them. The answer according to this does not seem to be address actual issues just make them afraid of the republicans.

No. They are voting for their rights as human beening's not to be slaughtered by white men and left hanging from a tree. They do not need the crap scared out of them, white men have done that to them for years and they are still here voting for their rights every day. It is the white man that is terrified
as the census shows they are losing their majority. It is their fear.

Pretty clear why POC would vote against moore. He was calling for returning them to slavery. Not voting against that would be troubling indeed.

The answer isn't you are smarter or know more history the answer is you have more to fear.

Sorry. No. They know the history far to well and vote as if their lives depend on it and it does. Not fear just common sense.

Did you know?

Many Americans are not familiar with Juneteenth — but now 29 states recognize the 19th of June as a state holiday. Juneteenth commemorates the 1865 day that General Gordon Granger of the Union Army sailed into Galveston, Texas and read General Order #3, announcing that "all slaves are free." It was a full two and a half years after slaves in rebel territories had been freed by The Emancipation Proclamation.




Many Americans are not familiar with Juneteenth — but now 29 states recognize the 19th of June as a state holiday. Juneteenth commemorates the 1865 day that General Gordon Granger of the Union Army sailed into Galveston, Texas and read General Order #3, announcing that "all slaves are free." It was a full two and a half years after slaves in rebel territories had been freed by The Emancipation Proclamation.


Journalist Douglas Blackmon tells another tale of freedom postponed and denied in SLAVERY BY ANOTHER NAME. Blackmon's book tells the unfamiliar story of "neo-slavery" that reached beyond the de-facto slavery of tenant farming and debt peonage. Blackmon first became intrigued by this episode of U.S. history while researching a story for THE WALL STREET JOURNAL which documented how U.S. Steel Corp. relied on forced black laborers in Alabama coal mines. He discovered:


Under laws enacted specifically to intimidate blacks, tens of thousands of African Americans were arbitrarily arrested, hit with outrageous fines, and charged for the costs of their own arrests. With no means to pay these ostensible "debts," prisoners were sold as forced laborers to coal mines, lumber camps, brickyards, railroads, quarries and farm plantations. Thousands of other African Americans were simply seized by southern landowners and compelled into years of involuntary servitude.
It was a system that Blackmon found carried on in some areas until the early days of World War II.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/06202008/profile2.html
/b]

It is not fear. It is history and they know it well. They lived it.

[Egnever]

30. all of that is fear of returning to the past.

And of a party that seems to dream of returning to that past.

You have yet to list a single thing that is anything other than fear. Yup for white folks the republican party is not nearly as scary.

I have yet to see a single issue that is actual progress listed only fear of returning to the past or of benefits taken away. Nothing that looks forward to actually solving issues for POC like better schools or increased local investment.

Those would be examples in my mind of giving them something to vote for not just citing all the evil white men have done in the past and promising not to repeat it.

[EffieBlack]

48. You may not intend this, but your post is very insulting

This is not about black people being scared - at least no more scared than white people.

Black Americans are the most politically sophisticated group you will find in this country. We have for decades voted, not our fears, but our hopes and faith. We vote with our faces forward, not looking behind, hoping and expecting that by remaining engaged and positive that we will finally be seen and treated as what we are - an integral part of the American fabric.

Trust me, if we were just scared, you'd know it because this country would be a very different place.

I suggest that you take some time to learn your - our - history and then take some more time to learn about your fellow Americans and fellow Democrats before you make any more comments like this, which are likely well-meaning, but really isn't a good look.

Mr. President, I heard you say Friday that you had questions for voters, particularly African- American voters. And you asked the question: Did the Democratic Party take us for granted? Well, I have raised questions. But let me answer your question.

You said the Republican Party was the party of Lincoln and Frederick Douglass. It is true that Mr. Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation, after which there was a commitment to give 40 acres and a mule.

That's where the argument, to this day, of reparations starts. We never got the 40 acres. We went all the way to Herbert Hoover, and we never got the 40 acres. We didn't get the mule. So we decided we'd ride this donkey as far as it would take us.

Mr. President, you said would we have more leverage if both parties got our votes, but we didn't come this far playing political games. It was those that earned our vote that got our vote. We got the Civil Rights Act under a Democrat. We got the Voting Rights Act under a Democrat. We got the right to organize under Democrats.

Mr. President, the reason we are fighting so hard, the reason we took Florida so seriously, is our right to vote wasn't gained because of our age. Our vote was soaked in the blood of martyrs, soaked in the blood of good men and women soaked in the blood of four little girls in Birmingham. This vote is sacred to us. This vote can't be bargained away. This vote can't be given away. Mr. President, in all due respect, Mr. President, read my lips: Our vote is not for sale.
...
As you know, I live in New York. I was there September 11th when that despicable act of terrorism happened. A few days after ... I had to do a radio show that morning. When I got there, my friend James Entome (ph) said, "Reverend, we're going to stop at a certain hour and play {America the Beautiful} a song, synchronized with 990 other stations."
...
The particular station I was at, the played that rendition sung by Ray Charles.

As you know, we lost Ray a few weeks ago, but I sat there that morning and listened to Ray sing through those speakers, "Oh beautiful for spacious skies, for amber waves of grain, for purple mountains' majesty across the fruited plain."

And it occurred to me as I heard Ray singing, that Ray wasn't singing about what he knew, because Ray had been blind since he was a child. He hadn't seen many purple mountains. He hadn't seen many fruited plains. He was singing about what he believed to be.

Mr. President, we love America, not because all of us have seen the beauty all the time. But we believed if we kept on working, if we kept on marching, if we kept on voting, if we kept on believing, we would make America beautiful for everybody.

Rev. Al Sharpton, 2004 Democratic Convention Speech

[Egnever]

55. again you are confusing the genral motivations of POC and this article

I am strictly speaking to this article and it's celebration of fear as a motivating factor.

And you have yet to post a single positive motivation for anyone from that article.

[EffieBlack]

58. Why does it matter that, in your view, the article doesn't "post a single positive motivation"?

Do you believe the article represents the sum total of information about black voters' motivations? Are you assuming that citing to an article that you don't think shows what black people were voting for in Alabama is undercuts the OP's point?

Your assumption isn't even correct - you will note that the piece ends with information about Doug Jones' strong civil rights record that many black voters in Alabama felt very good about and was one of the reasons he was able to beat Roy Moore. But that's besides the point.

[Egnever]

65. Clearly you are just going to attempt to set up strawmen at this point so I think we are done.

Yup the final footnote was his involvement in the trial of the bombers.

Tossed in as a throw away. In the final sentance.

[EffieBlack]

66. Good Lord - you really need to put down that article. You're a wee bit obsessed with it

As I said, perhaps you should take a break and google some other stories about black people's political motivations that you will find more emotionally satisfying.

[Egnever]

69. I am obsessed with it?

How many posts have you wasted defending it so far and yet still the only thing positive you can come up with is the throw away last sentance.


Oh and a lot of snide little insults.

Have a great night we are clearly done.

[sheshe2]

68. You are telling a POC

that THEY are confusing the genral motivations of POC and this article

I am strictly speaking to this article and it's celebration of fear as a motivating factor.

And you have yet to post a single positive motivation for anyone from that article.

OMG.

[Egnever]

70. Again misses the mark

but I do find the attempts to twist what I said enlightening.

This article does not list a single positive motivation for voting for Jones aside from admittedly the throw away line at the end.

mostly it was this ridiculus line at the end from you

You have to ask yourself why? What do POC and women know or want that white men do not? Why are POC/Women more informed? The answer is history, past and present. We also waited and fought one hell of a long time for the right to vote, one that was given to white men a long time ago and it was given freely without a fight. We POC/women value what we fought for.

Which I perhaps incorrectly assumed you were using this article to illustrate. An article that again lists no positive motivators at all only fear.

If you cant get someone to vote when there is a gun to their head when will they vote?

Why did they vote? the gun was to their head according to this article.

Motivation to be sure but not the motivation I would hope for.

[sheshe2]

50. Well sorry you do not get it engever.

You have yet to list a single thing that is anything other than fear. Yup for white folks the republican party is not nearly as scary.

I have yet to see a single issue that is actual progress listed only fear of returning to the past or of benefits taken away. Nothing that looks forward to actually solving issues for POC like better schools or increased local investment.

The GOP ain't scary for white folks...bwahaha...losing their heathcare, Medicare, social security and Medicaid is not scary enough for them. Clueless. They are dumber than dirt.

You say fear. I say fearless.

Women and POC have fought for all the ages. WE have never stopped.

Women were beaten and force fed and STILL WE STAND! We walked across the Edmund Pettus and STILL WE STAND. We fight every gawd dayum day.

Now off with you. Try reading the Democratic platform.

Those would be examples in my mind of giving them something to vote for not just citing all the evil white men have done in the past and promising not to repeat it.

Oh there you are...what we need to do for 'them' the poor pitiful white men that never have had to fight for their rights once in their life.

[Egnever]

59. Clearly you are angry with white folks

that's fine and even arguably justified.

I completely get it. It has been my single largest motivator since my childhood to vote for Dems at every opportunity. The promise of equality. As a white guy no less.

What I don't get is this articles attempt to paint voting out of fear as a virtue.

You would have to be an idiot to vote for Roy Moore. I would argue you would have to be an idiot to not vote against Roy Moore.

Yet thousands did vote for him. Makes me ashamed of the human race honestly.

Again this is an article that celebrates the wining of one white guy over another based on POC getting out because one of the white guys scared the crap out of them and rightly so. He should have scared everyone.

What it is not is an article proclaiming the positive forces that moved POC to vote for the democrat. There is not a single positive reason given in that article. With the exception perhaps of Jone's involvement in the trial of the church bombers.

[EffieBlack]

62. Why are you obsessing with the article?

Do you think that, unless the piece includes sufficient "positive reasons" that black voters voted for Jones, there were none?

[Egnever]

71. I am obsessing because I respond to you?

is it possible for you to discuss anything without an attempt to insult?

[betsuni]

89. It's the talking point that Dems have no message, only anti-Trump/anti-Republican.

[EffieBlack]

93. Nothing like Republican talking points being splayed all over DU

But given some of the other things we’re seeing here, I really shouldn’t be surprised.

[betsuni]

94. At least we can't be accused of having Stockholm Syndrome here anymore.

Progress!

[sheshe2]

74. If we were so fearful...

If we were so fearful we woman and POC would have crawled into a fetal ball and died long ago. We are standing and fighting every dayum day. You portray us as weak sniveling people when we are not.

[Egnever]

75. that I would agree with

again a confusion between a critique of the article you posted and your projection of what i believe of POC as a whole.

My problem with your article is exactly that it does not emphasize anything you are espousing here.

[LanternWaste]

108. And again, a particular bias forces one to use 'fear' rather than the more accurate 'concern.'

And again, a particular bias forces one to use 'fear' rather than the more accurate 'concern.'

I suppose I'd rationalize as such also if my narrative were at stake.

[herding cats]

27. No, it's learning from history and not wanting to see people make the same mistakes.

How that simple point can fly that high over your head shows my words will have zero impact here.

[sheshe2]

32. The fear is from white men.

Women and POC have fought for all the ages for our rights, jailed, hung, force fed... no one handed it to them anything. White men have lead their privileged life for ever. Every right handed to them. Clock is ticking, times changing and they will soon be the majority no more.

No wonder they are so angry.

[herding cats]

90. There's much truth in these words

It's difficult to understand what it's like to have your civil rights infringed on when you don't live it as your reality daily.

Also, I've noticed people confuse natural rights and civil rights. I don't think that's helping the matter any.

[Egnever]

36. As I said in another post feel free to point out any issue other than fear

That motivated these folks hell its in the second paragraph of the article.

They said they were motivated by the specific fears that Mr. Moore would help President Trump cut government aid programs, reduce access to health care and neglect criminal justice reform. But they also voted out of a more general concern that the country, in the Trump era, was going back to a place best left in the past.

“There’s no state in America where black people recognize the horrors of turning back the clock more than the State of Alabama,” said Bryan Stevenson, the founder of the Equal Justice Initiative, which is based in Montgomery. “There is a consciousness about this history in the African-American community.”

Obviously there is a clear historical base for those fears but any sane person should recognize them it is not rocket science.

The problem is there are a whole lot of white folks out there who fear POC as much as they fear going back to slavery. In both cases it is fear driving the electorate far more than any sort of progress on solving actual issues.

[herding cats]

45. Not, not wanting to see a reduction in healthcare, social services and criminal justice reform...

Isn't fear, it's voting for what's best for you.

Fear is voting for a racist because you believe the BS lies about other races in our society making yours less pure/powerful, or voting for a xenophobe because you believe the lies that Jewish people control all the money, or a homophobe because you're scared of the imaginary "gay agenda" infecting your children.

Those are examples of voters being manipulated by fear. People voting for real things that matter and have an honest impact on their lives is not fear, it's practical.

[Egnever]

47. sorry but I dissagree

that is exactly voting out of fear. It is not voting for something it is voting against something. We should be delivering reasons for POC to vote for something.

Now if the reasons listed were I voted dem because i believe in universal health care and the dems are ready to deliver it that would be voting for something.

This article does not have a single instance of that it is all about fear of something taken away. It makes no difference that those fears are grounded in truth the underlying motivation is fear.

We should and can do better.

[herding cats]

56. They are voting for something.

Their own better interest is something.

You've not had things taken away from you very often I'm guessing? I say this because you're coming across as someone whose never actually had a civil right of yours that deeply matters to you before the courts as people try and strip you of your dignity, humanity and right to be autonomous.

Well, I have. I have to fight to keep my rights tooth and nail, and even then they're slipping backward bit by bit. That I vote for what's best for me isn't fear. It's a fiery passion to pass for a better future to my daughter and her daughters.

[Egnever]

61. Oh please you don't know me at all

save me the arm chair diagnosis.

I have lived on the streets I have spent time in jail for things I did not do. I have lived in more than one hood.

And still you have not listed a single thing you vote for only a mitigation to things that the other side would like done to you.

Regardless my post was a response to the articles framing not POC motivation. Specifically that this article seems to portray POC motivation as nothing but fear based voting.

I believe that POC are more than that and I am mostly disappointed that this article is posted by a POC portraying it as a tale of vitrue while in reality it is a tale of fear and that saddens me.

[EffieBlack]

63. Wow.

If the fact that someone didn't post an article with a more positive spin causes you such emotional distress, perhaps you should google some other pieces that you will find more uplifting and soothing.

[Egnever]

67. LOL if a critique of an article brings you to vapors I would suggest the same.

Feel free to disagree with my take but to this post you have done little to nothing to knock it down in anyway other than attempt to insult me.

[sheshe2]

84. Nice touch.

Accuse a member of having vapors. You are the one that is insulting a member here.

[herding cats]

72. What civil right have you ever had to fight for?

That's what I vote for my civil rights and my right to not have otheres try and impose their will on my life and take my ability to make my own choices. Which they're trying to do daily. Not that they'd "like" to do, but that they're actively doing. There's more I vote for but that's a good start.

I've been poor and not had a roof over my head before, too. What does that have to do with this conversation? I don't want anyone's sympathy because I was poor.

[Egnever]

77. Yours

for decades now.

And I will continue to do so despite the vitrol.

Did you even read the post I was responding to or are you just posting whatever comes to mind based on reading my posts?

You've not had things taken away from you very often I'm guessing? I say this because you're coming across as someone whose never actually had a civil right of yours that deeply matters to you before the courts as people try and strip you of your dignity, humanity and right to be autonomous.

The post you are responding to of mine was a direct response to that.

I am not looking for sympathy I am disabusing the idea I have never had anything taken from me including my freedom. I have had cops target me and harass me every time I walked down the street I have lived in neighborhoods where it was common place and where I was a target as well as my friends.

I don't want sympathy I want equality. My eyes are wide open. I have the good fortune to have improved my situation over the course of my life and I can now hide in the anonymity( my privilege that I am absolutely aware of) of my skin color but I remember well when that was not possible because I pissed off the cops in the town I lived in and it opened my eyes long before it was fashionable on the internet. Hell before there was an internet.

[herding cats]

82. Ok, I don't see that as being the same but I'll give you some latitude.

I fluctuated between homeless and couch surfing, was harassed by the police and blamed for things I didn't do for two years. Then I lived in economic instability for some time after that. I've just never considered that similar to fighting for LGBT, POC or women's equal rights. So, you lost me with that reply.

[sheshe2]

79. Crickets.

[bettyellen]

29. Nope, its white middle to upper class voters- mostly men- that vote on fear.

The rest of us are using our brains and voting for those whose policies make sense to us. CA exploited the fears of those confused and frightened.

[Egnever]

33. feel free to list one thing in that article that is not fear based and I will happily agree.

They said they were motivated by the specific fears that Mr. Moore would help President Trump cut government aid programs, reduce access to health care and neglect criminal justice reform. But they also voted out of a more general concern that the country, in the Trump era, was going back to a place best left in the past.

Mr. Nabors said that black voters were paying attention to Mr. Moore’s comments in September, in which he said that America was last “great” during the days when slavery was legal. He said they paid attention when Mr. Moore brought Stephen K. Bannon, the former Trump adviser, to campaign for him. He said that they paid attention to the allegations brought by the women who said Mr. Moore had consorted with them when they were young.

So again I say is the answer to getting POC to vote as suggested by this article just scaring the crap out of them or are there actual concrete solutions to actual issues that would motivate them.

I would like to believe that there are actual policy proposals that would motivate people to action but sadly this article does not seem in any way to point any of them out.

Sadly Fear is a great motivator and the republicans have been using fear of POC to get votes for decades now. Maybe it is time we scare the crap out of everyone. I am not particularly against doing what works though I do find it distasteful.

I think it is fairly obvious at this point there are large swaths of white folks who vote based on fear for Republicans but one does not negate the other.

[bettyellen]

38. That republicans want to dismantle the social safety net is a real thing people think about- comping

It to the twisted kind of work CA does to push buttons for racists does Dems a disservice. I saw us campaign both on good policy, and also on how dangerous GOP policies would be- didn’t you? It’s funny how many people argue all we did was say we “weren’t Trump” but many of us saw a thourough trashing of GOP policies as well as great plans and policies touted.
At any rate this “fear” crap is to motivate disengaged voters. And POC haven’t been disengaged.

[Egnever]

41. again fear based voting

While I agree it is a thing the republicans want to do it is not voting for something it is voting against something or the fear that something will happen.

It is far past time we gave POC something to Vote for instead of telling them continuously what they should vote against. Or worse leaving us as the only alternative to what they are afraid of.

[bettyellen]

43. Ive commonly heard people complain HRCs was all about how horrible Trump was- which came true BTW-

And I know a lot of venues cut her off when she tried to talk about policy, so that’s how things came off to people. So how different is that than what your suggesting? Should we make up crazy shit like they do? When she talked about Russia - reporters laughed and shrugged for the most part. I don’t get what you’re suggesting?

[Egnever]

44. I don't know the answer

I do know pretending voting out of fear is a virtue is ridiculous.

The answer is probably getting more POC into office people that actually live the every day issues faced in their communities.

This article however lists exactly none of that and is celebrating the victory of one white guy over another..

Excuse me while I yawn that POC were motivated against a child molester dedicated to bringing back slavery.

We can do better. We need to do better.

[bettyellen]

51. Okay, sorry if there was any misunderstanding. Been dwelling on the CA using anxiety

Against us since I read that piece last night. It’s so sick- a perversion of academic studies, with horrid consequences. I’m a little preoccupied with that. Take care, E! Always good to see you here.

[Egnever]

78. No worries

these are troubling times and I understand everyone is on edge.

We would like to be able to deny we can be manipulated but all of us have trigger points and I am sure I have touched some folks points here.

[sheshe2]

80. How about responding to this part of the OP?!

Your dozens of posts are about fear fear fear fear fear.

Answer this. You never addressed this part. Zip Zero Zilch.

Notice that those posters who are so concerned about "alienating" white male Trump voters aren't concerned at all about alienating POC/women. The unspoken message is that white voters are more important than non-white voters.
Why are women/POC told they must cater to white male voters, but white male voters are never told they must cater to women/POC?

[Egnever]

81. First off point to a post concerned about alienating white voters

that isn't also concerned about alienating people of color.

Once you accomplish more than setting up your straw man I will be happy to discuss the post you find.

[LanternWaste]

110. Creative, though flawed way to avoid a premise.

"Once you accomplish more than setting up your straw man..."

Creative, though flawed way to avoid a premise. It's used in talk-radio often.

Also, inaccurate usage of straw-man-- logic classes are not simply for college freshmen looking for an easy A

And still pretending concern and fear are the same thing to validate your bias.

No doubt, you'll yet maintain the your pretense that accuracy is an oppressive insult.

[betsuni]

91. The "Dems have no actual policy proposals, only an anti-Trump/anti-Republican message"

UGH. Where's the Stop It spray?

[EffieBlack]

40. How did you get this from the OP?

Nothing about scaring POC or anything close in that post.

[Egnever]

42. nothing?

They said they were motivated by the specific fears that Mr. Moore would help President Trump cut government aid programs, reduce access to health care and neglect criminal justice reform. But they also voted out of a more general concern that the country, in the Trump era, was going back to a place best left in the past.

“There’s no state in America where black people recognize the horrors of turning back the clock more than the State of Alabama,” said Bryan Stevenson, the founder of the Equal Justice Initiative, which is based in Montgomery. “There is a consciousness about this history in the African-American community.”

[EffieBlack]

49. And you think that this means Black Americans' politics is completely driven by fear?

[Egnever]

52. cute but not what I said at all

what I said is that seems to be the message in this article. There is not a single positive motivation listed in that article not a single one.

[sheshe2]

88. I have to thank you for ALL your many many responses.

You helped keep my thread going for all to see.

They will see.

[stevenleser]

132. Your concern that people evaluate choices basen on what they might gain or lose is interesting

If you aren’t afraid of many things the GOP might do, you aren’t paying attention.

Your attempt to belittle concerns people have about the wrong choices doesn’t say a lot of good things about your motivations here.

[herding cats]

26. People who don't want to understand never will, sheshe.

Great post.

[sheshe2]

100. Thanks, herding cats.

those who don't, won't.

[Skittles]

28. yup

that's why the current opioid epidemic is a health crisis whereas crack was a criminal issue

[Egnever]

39. that is another bunch of gobledy gook IMHO

the "opiod crisis" is more from folks having to turn to street drugs as an alternative to the prescription drugs they were using than anything to do with the actual opiods.

You could certainly argue the opiods created the addiction in the first place but the death rate really took off when folks were kicked off the regulated meds and forced to turn to street alternatives with no quality or potency controls.

[Skittles]

46. and crack was a cheaper form of cocaine

the real issue here is ADDICTION, and certainly crack was treated differently than the current crisis

[Egnever]

73. That I agree with wholeheartedly.

our drug laws are mostly created as a form of oppression. An excuse to Harass folks based on skin color or geographic location.

Addiction is real but you can rarely jail someone out of it.

[Gothmog]

31. I have noticed this also

[EffieBlack]

34. THANK YOU!

But be prepared for the pushback from supposed Democrats who are VERY CONCERNED that we can't advance an intelligent progressive objective without embracing Trump supporters, the feelings of minority Democrats be damned ...

[leanforward]

64. Our/My country is in turmoil as a result of older white guys.

I'm an older white guy, and what our/my country needs is more of diversity, not less.

Our elected officials are NOT representing the best interest of their constituents.

Our elected officials are too influenced by the lobbyist and the money they can contribute to their campaign.

[RainCaster]

76. Astute observation - we are being pwned by Russia

The tactics are so obvious. Can we block these bastards?

[BoneyardDem]

83. Powerful observation.....and a critical angle

I guess there was a reason I'm viscerally aggitated by all of these "let's include Trump voters in our big tent otherwise we lose".

Thank you, and a kick

[sheshe2]

86. Love you.

[Hekate]

85. KnR

Hang on, sisters

[sheshe2]

87. Hang on, sisters.

Yep. It is what we do.

[betsuni]

92. K&R

[ehrnst]

95. K&Rec

[Sunsky]

96. K&R

[IronLionZion]

97. Because we're reliable Democrats but white males can swing either way

GOP still has way too many white women also. We should be getting more of those than we do.

So our party focuses on the sheep who have lost their way and need to be shepherded back home. It shouldn't feel like it's at the expense of the other sheep who are already at home.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Lost_Sheep

[billh58]

98. Regardless of the attempts to

accuse you of "fear baiting," this OP is right on the money. POC and women should be afraid of the future under the Orange Anus-Mouth and his fascist supporters. I know that I am becoming more fearful every day, and can't wait to help vote these monsters out of office.

[sheshe2]

99. Thank you, bill.

We vote them out in a blue wave.

[LAS14]

101. Would you give us links to these OPs? Either I haven't...

...seen them or we're reading them very differently.

Notice that those posters who are so concerned about "alienating" white male Trump voters aren't concerned at all about alienating POC/women.

[sheshe2]

102. You posted on many of them. nt

[LAS14]

103. Well, I'm not aware of ever making a post...

... that worries about alienating white male Trump voters. So... specifics please? Links??

[sheshe2]

104. Follow your posts to find the links.

PS....I never said you posted any such thing. I just said you posted on some of those threads.

[billh58]

105. Don't take the

flame bait...

[sheshe2]

106. Got it.

Thanks~

[LAS14]

112. See my reply #111. This sounds like merely a way to back...

Last edited Wed Mar 21, 2018, 10:14 AM - Edit history (1)

... away from a question you can't answer. Right?

Edit - Changed "cowardly" to "merely a".

[Cha]

120. You're calling sheshe a "coward", LAS..

You should be ashamed.

[sheshe2]

123. Thank you Cha.

I was a little shocked by that.

[billh58]

124. There's no reason to be

shocked when you consider the motives of the source.

[sheshe2]

126. ;)

[LAS14]

150. Hmm..... See response #147, but how can you possibly know my motives?? nt

Last edited Wed Mar 21, 2018, 11:47 AM - Edit history (1)

[Cha]

131. Resorting to personal attacks

is an automatic demerit on so many levels.

Carry on.. you're doing important work, she

[LAS14]

148. See response #147.

Last edited Wed Mar 21, 2018, 11:46 AM - Edit history (1)

[LAS14]

147. OK. My apologies to SheShe2. I had second thoughts about...

... the choice of word. Will edit after I think of a better one.

[ehrnst]

146. So does a personal attack....

[LAS14]

149. See response #147.

Last edited Wed Mar 21, 2018, 11:47 AM - Edit history (1)

[ehrnst]

156. I saw all your posts. Including the one that I referenced.

I stand by my observation.

[LAS14]

157. Sorry - I meant to see response #147.

[ehrnst]

159. No change in my observation.

You showed yourself with your original wording, and changed it only when it was pointed out to you that several people viewed it as an attack.

[Me.]

116. Not A Cowardly Bone In Your Body

Keep on marching/posting

[billh58]

122. +1000 n/t

[sheshe2]

127. Me.

Love ya.

[LAS14]

111. Since when is a legitimate question, aimed at...

... getting us to common ground "flame bait???" With that kind of attitude real conversation is not possible.

[LAS14]

107. OK. Well, then, I'm still asking for links...

... to the posts where people are worrying about alienating white male Trump voters. I have seen posts about people wanting us not to label all Trump voters the same, but they certainly weren't limiting it to white males. I don't think. Link?

[Hortensis]

113. Oh, come on. All games get old, including the

be-my-servant one. If you want links maybe just go to your own posts and grab one. "My Posts" is the tab on the top right of the screen.

[LAS14]

114. I want SheShe2 to demonstrate what she's referring to, or acknowledge...

... that she's making unfounded attacks. And she, herself, has acknowledged that I'm not the one starting the threads she's referring to. So my doing the research accomplishes nothing.

[Me.]

115. Google Is Your Friend

Last edited Tue Mar 20, 2018, 10:13 PM - Edit history (1)

[LAS14]

119. The point is not for me to see the links. It's to verify that SheShe2 really...

...has a basis for her claims.

[Me.]

125. She's Satisfied

It's only you who isn't

[stevenleser]

133. Were all satisfied except for one person. Weve all seen what sheshe is talking about.

The pathetic call for links is almost gaslighting in this context

[sheshe2]

138. Hey steven....

[lapucelle]

135. It kind of reminds me of this...

?itemid=11217172

[Me.]

140. ....

[sheshe2]

137. I am.

Thanks me.

[billh58]

155. As well you should be.

Keep up the excellent work you do SheShe, and don't allow the trolls and bots to distract you. DU has been infested with them for a while now, but they are easy to spot.

[HenryWallace]

109. I'm confused (.... more than ususal).

* The drop in turn out of POC (and by extension black women) was a significant factor in HRC's 2016 electoral loss. That's not opinion, its fact.

* Happy Jones won. But, one election does not a movement make... His opponent was evil; and I suspect Bible belt morality drove black women's turnout more powerfully than any personal historic sense of destiny.

That said, having spent 30 years in the deep south, I have learned that the I cannot speak with authority about the experiences of POC; my understanding will always be imperfect.

[Awsi Dooger]

117. Currently I would prefer a white male speaker and white male nominees

I'm handicapping the landscape, not concerned about alienating or failing to alienate.

Right now we desperately need numbers, in the House and Senate and in what figures to be an extremely tight 2020 presidential race. IMO, white males in the difficult races offer greater opportunity to steal a vital percent or two. That's it. I'm always a big picture evaluator who doesn't care about day to day details.

An approach like that won't cripple the party or ruin our image or do anything other than maximize our chances in the short term. We can nominate fantastic women and minority candidates in the districts and states where the terrain naturally favors our side.

Then when we get further down the road when the Silent Generation is less of a factor and hopefully some of the gerrymandering is smoothed out then we'll own more margin for error nationally and can go back to a Nancy Pelosi type on top.

If the above makes me a bad guy, then I'll concede as a bad guy. And I still won't care about any of your day to day specifics and all the subjective judgments I'm supposed to make as a result.

[brer cat]

128. Well, Gary...

you don't mind if I call you Gary, do you? It's not as if I could call you astute, politically aware, or even remotely sensitive, and "bad guy" just doesn't cut it either.

As you requested, I won't bother you with day-to-day specifics or even subjective judgments, but I would like to say that I sincerely hope that you don't call yourself a Democrat.

[Me.]

134. Boom

[sheshe2]

136. Ouch.

11111111111111111

[ehrnst]

142. +1000. (nt)

[NurseJackie]

153. ###

[Tavarious Jackson]

139. I think Kamala Harris

could beat Trump right now in a landslide. Schiff as VP would be my preference

[ehrnst]

143. But what about those who would PREFER a white man as a candidate and speaker?

What about them? They have preferences!

White straight men are being left behind in all of this yammering about "diversity".

[Tavarious Jackson]

144. White men have never been left behind

and it's high time they are.

[ehrnst]

145. Shhhhhh!!!!!!!

They have the FEELS about this...

[ehrnst]

141. So we let an irrational fear of women leaders determine our candidates?

And you say you're a Dem? A progressive?

If the above makes me a bad guy, then I'll concede as a bad guy. And I still won't care about any of your day to day specifics and all the subjective judgments I'm supposed to make as a result.

See also:

https://www.bitchmedia.org/post/hipster-sexism-is-sexist-feminist-magazine-irony-culture-racism-sexism

[Solly Mack]

118. K&R

[R B Garr]

121. K&R! Yes, we have been seeing a lot of this,

especially since 2015...

[MaryMagdaline]

129. Yep. I've noticed

[sheshe2]

130. Yep.

Hard not to, Mary.

Sigh.

[LAS14]

151. A little bit of hypocrisy here?

Around responses 111 to 147, maybe earlier, I was trying to get SheShe2 to either acknowledge that no one had singled out "white male Trump voters" or else point to where they had. She refused. I persisted and was accused of tossing out "flame bait." I really did just want to highlight the logical problem here. I wanted to encourage clear thinking. I think there are legitimate reasons to not want to spend time on Trump voters. I want to discourage vitriol toward all Trump voters that spills over onto posters who do want to attend to some Trump voters. Clear thinking is my goal.

I did make a mistake and accuse SheShe2 of being cowardly in avoiding my question. I edited that out. But it's not a good thing to imply bad motives to me (response #124) while scolding me for a personal attack. Accusing me of being "pathetic" and engaging in "gaslighting" isn't personal?????

[ismnotwasm]

152. K&R

[Mountain Mule]

154. K&R! nt

[LAS14]

158. A couple of suggestions.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210389821