"Outrage at Michelle Wolf is About One Thing: The Dying Vestiges of White Privilege and White Power"

[ochem]

Last edited Mon Apr 30, 2018, 07:34 PM - Edit history (1)

The white ruling class in America, currently home to the Republican party, has enjoyed almost 250 years of rule by hypocrisy.

Everyone is equal, but slavery is ok
Everyone is equal, but women can't vote
Everyone is equal, but only white people can vote
Everyone is equal, but immigrants don't have any rights
Everyone is equal, but not gays and lesbians

And today:

Everyone is equal, but you you are not allowed to point out the hypocrisy of the white ruling class

Or maybe put another way, only the white ruling class is allowed to be hypocritical.

Michelle Wolf brilliantly called out their hypocrisy. And that is a line, in their view, that must not be crossed.

So in my view, hypocrisy is Americas original sin. Being able to say "You are not allowed to do this, but I am" is the ultimate power of privilege.

While our founding document said all men are created equal, it was and continues to be treated as an almost tongue-in-cheek deceleration by the majority of white America who call the Republican Party their home.

[JI7]

1. Wolf did what most black people are doing regarding Kanye

Calling out the BS and ridiculing it.

Stop coddling right wing lies and bigots .

[WhiteTara]

2. Especially since the term "men" excludes 52% of the population.

[ollie10]

3. What I learned from Michelle Wolf

1) you shouldn't call out lies of a female unless you also bring up her eye shadow. Then if you get caught and people object, then say it is really a compliment of her eye shadow, or a metaphor, or...something.

2) you can engage in bullying type behavior just because you can do it, and it is ok if your side is the one doing the bullying

3) it's ok and funny to wish that a tree falls on a political opponent. If you don't think it is funny, go to hell

4) nobody has a right to oppose abortion unless they have had one. Yes, she actually said this and some groaned but many thought it was funny

[Eko]

4. They are jokes ollie.

[mythology]

48. Jokes are supposed to be funny

I found the clips I've heard to not be humorous. I wasn't exactly offended as it was just bad comedy. I don't get why people think it was some sort of brutal take down, or all the offense.

[John Fante]

5. It WAS a compliment on her eye shadow. How are people still not getting this?

Calling out bullying assholes with blunt language does not make one a bullying asshole as well. Your logic is flawed.

Your third complaint perfectly encapsulates why we got our teeth kicked in elections for most of the '00s. Too nice, too deferential, too soft.

[ollie10]

16. So you are saying if we say that a tree should fall on our opponent we will win?

bullshit.

The joke wasn't funny. Any more than a dead baby joke is funny.

As an electoral strategy it is even worse.

We have made great electoral gains in the past year. Didn't do it by acting like an asshole.

[ehrnst]

18. Some new rants about how Michelle Wolf is 'harming us."

You've moved on from calling her "trumplike" and "setting back the pro-choice movement."

Oh - and how you and MLK would consider her act a blow to "nonviolence."

[ehrnst]

19. So now Michelle Wolf's act is "an electoral strategy?"

You have endowed her at least as much power as Salem did on Goody Proctor....

[LanternWaste]

20. I think it's great you posit a position no one is arguing...

"As an electoral strategy it is even worse..."

I think it's great you posit a position no one is arguing, conflating a comedy routine with an unspecified Democratic electoral strategy.

We have indeed, made great gains in the past year. Don't pretend a comedy routine has any relevance to that.

[ehrnst]

21. I think that Ollie is trying to justify why they dislike Wolf so much

When that DU'er has expressed admiration for Jon Stewart and Colbert, who have been as or more "shocking" in language and humor.

[ollie10]

22. Is saying a tree should fall on someone funny?

Please explain why this is funny.

And the crack about abortion.....don't knock it if you haven't had one.....oh please. How out of touch and tone deaf can someone be?

[ehrnst]

23. Not an accurate comparison, metaphor or anything. Straw man, actually.

That is using a metaphor of a tree falling in the woods, to make a point humorous point about something lying. If you want to say is making light of an actual incident of a tree falling on someone, you would be wrong. Like you are about the comment on her makeup, and her comment on abortion.

To explain further - What Wolf did with the offhand abortion remark was to talk about an elephant in the room conerning this administration. I have done similar when an anti-choicer tries to claim that huge numbers of women get abortions just before their vacation, so they will look good in a bikini, I say, "Yeah, you should always schedule an abortion at least a week before getting on the plane, because anesthesia always makes me nauseous, and I can lose weight! Unless the clinic down the street is having a two for one sale on Groupon, then a friend and I will split the freebie!" In no way was I trying to express what women really do, I was mocking, as Wolf was, their vicious, hateful, utterly false portrayal of women who make a decision about childbearing.

Is that clearer?

It's doing what Colbert - who you call a hero - did with his character on the Colbert Report. It's taking a charicature over the top to confront people on something.

Is that clearer?

[marble falls]

24. Why don't you report the ENTIRE joke? It was a "tree falling in the woods/no-one to hear" joke...

and she was very clear that she didn't want any harm to Kellyanne.

And yes, the joke was funny. Very funny in content and presentation.

[ehrnst]

28. There you go - trying to bring facts into a discussion with someone

who is trying to justify a very deeply emotional reaction as a purely intellectual one.

Silly.

[ollie10]

32. I think she just said something for shock value

A tree falling on a human being....now that is a real knee-slapper! Sarc

"It’s like that old saying, if a tree falls in the woods, how do we get Kellyanne under that tree? I’m not suggesting she gets hurt. Just stuck. Stuck under a tree"

a human being stuck under a tree! a real knee-slapper!

We have become so tribal that if we don't like somebody's politics, we think this is funny. It isn't.

[ehrnst]

34. You mean like when Jon Stewart got a gospel choir to sing "go fuck yourself"

You "miss" Jon, but you pillory Wolf for doing much less in the way of shock value.

Or your hero, Colbert, who called Trump a "cockholster for Putin."

You endow Wolf with supernatural destructive abilities that you don't for male comedians.

That's pretty clear.

[atreides1]

40. To be honest

If a tree should fall on those who are currently trying to destroy this country, I wouldn't have problem with it!!!

[ollie10]

42. Well, I am sure they feel the same way about us

But that is one of the many things I find deplorable with Trump and his cult followers.

Does anyone think we are going to win a pissing match with Trump? You piss in the wind, you get wet.

The best way to deal with Trump and his ilk is to defeat them at the polls. That means fighting smart, not just mean.

Put another way, if Jones had told that joke about the tree falling on Kellyanne the result would be Senator Moore....

[ehrnst]

47. You still haven't told us how Wolf is going to "harm us at the polls," or is "trumplike."

Last edited Tue May 1, 2018, 12:52 PM - Edit history (1)

What about her triggers you so badly?

[ehrnst]

51. Crickets.....

Can't answer?

Color me surprised.

[Duppers]

6. #4

Was "indelicate" to say the least. Been kicked around here. I objected and I'm adamantly pro-choice.

I laughed at most of MW's other jokes.

[ehrnst]

17. I see you are trolling yet another OP on Michelle Wolf... (nt)

[rzemanfl]

27. When you fish, do you cast, or just drag the lure behind the boat? n/t

[ollie10]

29. If you want to silence someone

Or discourage the free expression of ideas....what do you do?

[ehrnst]

33. Oh NOES!!! Now someone is trying to SILENCE you, and discourage your free

expression of ideas!!!

"Come see the violence inherent in the system!!!"

I suppose you will try to push another comparison between you and MLK now, like you did on my OP?

[rzemanfl]

37. Fish under another bridge. n/t

[ollie10]

39. great illustration! Thanks

[rzemanfl]

43. Here's one with animation and dialogue.

[ehrnst]

50. You scared someone away with that....

[rzemanfl]

49. This message was self-deleted by its author. n/o/t

[haele]

45. Free expression of ideas does not mean one can't be criticized.

Not all ideas hold equal value. People discard their own ideas all the time when more efficient ideas come along all the time. Especially if they can't really defend either their idea or the logic behind it.
And not all arguments are worth continuing to try to keep making the point, especially ones made based on preferences or affront. I'm always asking my adult stepdaughter when she thinks that we aren't listening to her when she's trying to figure out a way to re-design reality to her preference -
"You've told us what you think is best. We've thought about it and made a decision. Do you really want to continue to make a stand on that hill?"
Goddess, I feel so old sometimes.

In fact, there's a whole discipline that's been developed over the centuries on how to argue and end arguments both logically and persuasively, and it isn't titled "Propaganda 101".

Haele

[tblue37]

35. "The perfect smoky eye" IS a compliment. She wasn't criticizing the look of her eyes,

but the lies she spews.

[ollie10]

38. sounds passive aggressive to me

but that is just my opinion

[ehrnst]

46. Something that you do know about. (nt)

[EffieBlack]

7. Everyone is equal and we can identify people as "black," "female," "gay," etc. but never ever ever

refer to white people as "white people." That's racist and, of course, divisive.

[haele]

8. White is the majority norm in this country.

So, it's not fair that the boss and his/her cohort is always referred to as "the boss"?
It's understood what "white" means. It refers to someone in this country with at least 3/4 European ancestry -or could "pass" with light Eurasian features, and because of the shared historic norms, even if the person with that background has economic or psychological issues, just the skin color alone carries with it an expectation of
both common experience and social standing.
Similarly, there's a common understanding on what "black", "Latina/o", "gay", or "female" or the various other cultural references mean. And those are different expectations and experiences being under one of those social labels, even if the person can also claim being white.

The stereotypical "norm" is pushed in our culture to keep everyone in their proper place -to keep them in line. Whether we want to admit it or not. And it doesn't matter to those groups what any one particular person may think is right or fair - it's what society thinks. A self-proclaimed liberal might not "see" color/gender/ethnic status, but the local Police Commissioner, district bank manager, Editor of the local paper, and City councilmembers do...and they're the ones who set both the policy and local attitudes on how those stereotypical groups fit in the social and political power hierarchy. How they are able to access and interact with common resources.

Social standing and assumptions has very little to do with equality under the law. And that's a hard thing for young or born-again idealists to grasp.

On edit - oops, I missed the implied sarcasm. And I agree with that, if nothing else.

Haele

[EffieBlack]

9. Beautifully explained!

Thanks!



I used to do an experiment with my class where I’d ask all of the black students to raise their hands. They did it without question. And the white students would always turn and look at them, waiting for them to raise their hands.

Then I asked the white students to raise THEIR hands and most of them got really pissed. They wanted to know why they were being singled out, what difference did their race make, why were they being called white, etc.

It was very interesting and led to some great discussions about the perceived universality of whiteness.

[haele]

10. Back at you

The world is a big place, and I realized a long time ago I can't paint it to be the way I want.

Haele

[oberliner]

11. Have you considered other potential explanations for why you got those results in your experiment?

[EffieBlack]

13. Yes. And we discussed them in depth in my classes, with my students having the opportunity to

think, listen to others, consider their views and experiences, and read and learn about history and context.

I suggest you try doing the same rather than engage in the same knee jerk reaction you consistently try to inject into my threads with as you try to discount the views and experiences of people of color as some imaginary bugaboo we resort to because we just don’t know any better, or worse. If you did, you might actually learn something.

And while I’m enormously grateful for your helpful suggestion that I “consider” other explanations (why didn’t *I* think of that!), I have been “considering” these issues all of my life and have studied, written and taught in this area for decades, so I don’t need to be reminded to “consider” anything about it. But thanks anyway.

[oberliner]

14. Huh?

Knee-jerk reaction? I asked a question to get further insights into what you posted. I didn't make any suggestion.

I'd love to hear more about the conversation that followed the experiment - it sounds really thought-provoking.

Edit to add: I don't know what you are referencing with respect to your other comments.

[marble falls]

26. Care to posit a few?

[marble falls]

25. You're that mind opening teacher I hardly ever got. Thanks.

[IronLionZion]

41. People would look to me to raise my hand

but I would not because I'm brown. I'm still darker skinned than many of the black people I know.

I do love calling out people for assuming that white is the default race. Whenever people tell me that I'm white-washed or act like a white person it leads to very interesting discussions about what that means.

[oberliner]

12. Are you quoting anyone in particular?

[oberliner]

15. The exploration of the racial dynamic in the response to Michelle Wolf is fascinating

I have seen it come up several times now.

[still_one]

31. Michelle Wolf is white. If anything it is an example of sexism and double standards

[still_one]

30. This is an example of sexism rather than White privilege I believe. What happened with Joy Reid I

believe is a much better example of white privilege, where African Americans are held to a higher standard then their white counter parts

It is also a form of hypocrisy, and perhaps latent racism where an apology is not accepted as sincere

That is my take

[IronLionZion]

36. Michelle is a wolf, but she's also white

this became an issue because she called out everybody for their hypocrisy on everything, especially the media propping up Trump to sell their books and stuff. She even called out Dems on how reliably we manage to lose winnable elections. She called out "Uncle Tom" for white women who throw other white women under the bus, which is what Sarah Huckabee Sanders does to the white women of America.