I know many DUers hate him but I love Ralph Nader

[malaise]

He's on Ari right now

[Marie Marie]

1. I'm with you there malaise.

[Snotcicles]

93. Me too. nt

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

103. How can you say that knowing, without a doubt, that Nader

single-handedly caused the defeat of Al Gore and gave the 2000 election and presidency to Shrub?

[roscoeroscoe]

142. With you there!

I mean, c'mon!

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

145. Seriously!

[GeorgeGist]

170. Misspelling SCOTUS ?

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

172. No SCOTUS if no SCROTUS (Nader)!

[cynatnite]

2. Haven't seen him on TV in forever. n/t

[DURHAM D]

13. He is on Ari Melber right now...

or at least he was. I changed channels. Hate that ratfucker.

[cynatnite]

18. He's irrelevant. I don't see the need to pay him any attention. n/t

[DURHAM D]

22. Address your comment to Ari Melber.

Why is he giving that shithead air time?

[Sophia4]

76. If you drive a car and you are alive and well, you owe a lot to Ralph Nader.

He began the campaign to get real public, judicial and other government support to make car manufacturers produce safer cars.

Although controversial as to whether the Corvair was really less safe than other cars of its time, the Corvair lawsuit began a movement for consumer rights and product safety that continues today

About Ralph Nader:

Born in Connecticut in 1934, Ralph Nader went on to study law and became a crusader of car-safety reform in the 1960s. In 1971 he founded the consumer advocacy group Public Citizen and has continued to be an opponent of unchecked corporate power. Beginning in the 1990s, Nader entered the U.S. presidential race multiple times, with a notable run as candidate for the Green Party in the 2000 election.

https://www.biography.com/people/ralph-nader-9419799

When I was a child, back in the 1940s and 1950s, the weekend car accident fatality numbers were announced on the radio, and they were very frightening.

In 1937, there were 29.357 fatalities in car accidents per 100,000 in population.

That number declined, but in 1969, it was 26.418 per 100,000 in population.

In 2016, after all the regulations were passed to install seat belts and to improve the safety of automobiles in many other ways (including many not required by law necessarily), the death toll in auto accidents per 100,000 in population fell to only 11.59.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year

Ralph Nader's work has saved many, many lives. He is to be thanked.

But young people don't know what he did for our country.

He was just a lawyer. He sued an automobile company and he was instrumental in starting the Public Citizen movement and organization.

Really, we should all thank him. He has made our country a better place. What more can we ask of a person?

I understand that many object to his politics, but his accomplishments are so amazing we should all stand in awe of him.

[cynatnite]

79. Well, I could be in awe of him if he hadn't sold out in 2000 & 2004...

Nader is tainted now and his derision of the Democratic Party is well known.

Sure, I can recognize he accomplished a hell of a lot and saved lives in the past, but nothing will erase his complicit behavior since.

[George II]

81. "If you drive a car and you are alive and well, you owe a lot to Ralph Nader."....

....and if you were killed in Iraq (whether American or Iraqi or any of the "coalition" countries), you owe THAT to Nader as well.

If you were working in the WTC and were killed when they collapsed, you owe THAT to Nader as well.

Yes, there are many many many people who "owe" Nader.

[lapucelle]

99. I'm sure Republicans are thanking him for the Roberts' court

and the Citizens United decision.

[Kirk Lover]

107. It's really a stretch to blame Nadar for the Iraq war etc. I mean REALLY. nt

[stevenleser]

143. No, this isnt hard. If you enable a Republican to get elected, typical GOP policies will ensue

This is an easily foreseeable consequence. Hindering the Democratic nominees chances you are risking horrible economic policies for the poor, a more militant and belligerent foreign policy in general, i.e. probably more wars, a poisoning of the environment, etc.

This isn't even slightly hard.

[easttexaslefty]

84. Exactly

[Tribalceltic]

101. Bull

Airbags kill children and small women. Seatbelt laws are another way of pulling people over for no reason.

Road Design and vehicle design have helped make crashes more "survivable" , possibly causing people to drive like idiots.

Nader ignored safety features that might have actually helped, like auto braking.

He is a huge reason we had 8 years of Bush.


F*ck Him and the horse he rode in on, and the gave to Jill Stein

[Sophia4]

108. Children should not be in the front seats where the airbags are. Children are

supposed to be in child or baby seats in the back of the car.

The statistics on deaths from automobile accidents speak for themselves.

I lived during the 40s until today, and the statistics at the website I linked to speak for themselves.

Nader did not all by himself suggest every good safety improvement on cars, but he started the movement, the social awareness that caused auto companies to improve their products.

And government helped by passing regulations that required auto manufacturers to improve their products.

I'm not talking off the top of my hat. I have read about this quite a bit.

And Public Citizen is a wonderful organization.

[ProfessorGAC]

112. ALL That Work Was Already Going On

All of it. I'll grant he may have helped accelerate the move toward car safety being increased, but there were engineers at every auto company in the world already tasked with finding ways to make driving safer.

[Sophia4]

159. Getting automobile companies to adopt the new safety features and getting

consumers to buy based at least in part on safety were the big hurdles that Nader helped America overcome.

Plus getting safety features enacted into law.

Have you looked at the statistics on traffic deaths? I posted the link.

I remember the fight. I have read the history of the fight.

It's pretty shocking.

[ProfessorGAC]

161. That's Not What I Said

I actually agree with your premise, but i didn't say that it was easy to adopt them. But, it is an engineering fact that the technology of auto safety was well ahead of the curve that people like Nader (and he wasn't the only one) helped push.

Never said advocacy to adopt wasn't important. Just saying those things were already going on, so the auto makers were already paying people to come up with these designs.

The higher ups didn't enthusiastically retool the assembly lines to start putting them in until public pressure forced their hand. There's no question about that part.

[Sophia4]

163. The difficult part was getting automobile companies to spend the money to

add the safety features. The companies did not want to increase the cost of their products even if it would save lives. At least that was apparently the reason it was so hard to get the safety features placed into the production line.

[hunter]

168. Nader saved the U.S. car industry from its sorry self.

They needed a scapegoat, someone to point to when they had to spend money doing what had to be done.

Nader was a tool, just as he was later a tool of the Republican Party. He accepted the roles eagerly.

I've got zero respect for U.S.A. car culture or U.S.A. "consumer" economy.

Personally I boycott all of it as best I can.

[manor321]

3. Can't stand him

He's literally one of the main proponents of the "both parties are terrible" crowd. He gave us Bush in 2000.

[malaise]

5. No the crooked ReTHUGs and the Supreme Court gave America Bush n/t

[RhodeIslandOne]

42. He played his part as a useful idiot n/m

[Drahthaardogs]

55. No. People like Ralphie Boy know EXACTLY what is at stake

But screw us all because their own ego.

If they cared as much as they said, they would admit that one party is significantly better than the other, and act accordingly.

[redstateblues]

52. Nader denialism lives!

His narcissism is repulsive. Apologizing for Russian backed Jill Stein.

[BannonsLiver]

63. +1

Twenty years later people are still in denial about him, apparently. I wouldn’t piss on Ralph Nader if he was on fire.

[RestoreAmerica2020]

4. Any paricular reason for love fest? Just curious...

[malaise]

6. Seat belts

for starters

[madinmaryland]

77. He jumped the shark and lost all relevance more that 20 years ago. FUCK NADER.

Helping Shrub getting elected FUCK NADER.

Oh, And seat belts? Yeah. FUCK NADER.

[Major Nikon]

109. That bandwagon was already rolling along before Nader ever jumped on it

Nader's true skills lie in self-promotion.

[wasupaloopa]

7. He just said Democat party

Hard to love that guy.

[malaise]

9. He said Demcratic first and then Democrat

I did not miss that - I hate it.

[wellst0nev0ter]

102. Ahh, memories...

DemocRATs and bureaucRATs, all the same with this guy

[BumRushDaShow]

15. He said it a couple times

but whoever is doing the closed-caption (that I use so I can catch what I may have mid-heard) listed it correctly - at least the first time he said it.

[Corgigal]

8. You're probably a better person

then me. I don't, and I see no reason why he's on Ari right now. He's not telling us anything we don't know. Green Party was used by a Russian asset, that didn't come up.

[malaise]

14. Isn't it political bigotry (as he said re another issue)

for you to decide who should be on Ari?

[Corgigal]

17. I didn't decide shit,

cause if I did then he wouldn't be on.

[lovemydogs]

28. It's is political bigotry. It was not the green party but, Stein who was used

The greens had the blindness to nominate Stein but, the dems need to look at the agenda of the third parties instead of being so scared of them. And the dems need to dump the corporate worshipping

[MythosMaster]

39. Jill was an opportunist

and an empty suit, she is just like all those perpetual candidates that cash in on running for office they are not qualified and have no chance.

If Trump ran on a third party, Hillary would be president now.

[BumRushDaShow]

36. "I see no reason why he's on Ari right now."

For relevant historical perspective - notably the "Nader vs Bork" case that challenged Bork's (as Nixon's Solicitor General) firing of Special Prosecutor Archibald Cox.

Interesting that I found a transcript of one of Ari's older shows from back in January that showed similar Nader clips - http://www.msnbc.com/transcripts/msnbc-live-with-ari-melber/2018-01-26

(Remember that Melber wasn't born when Watergate was going on)

[Autumn]

10. Me too. He did a lot of good, but I still loved my Corvair

[wasupaloopa]

20. In 1965 I wanted Corvair Monza Spider convertable. Then out comes "Unsafe at Any Speed"

So I ended up buying a '65 Mustang GT. Thanks Ralph. I still drive Mustangs.

[malaise]

24. Love it

[Major Nikon]

110. Nader was wrong about the Corvair

It was just as safe if not safer than other vehicles in its class. By the time the DOT investigations contradicted Nader the bad press from the book had already put the vehicle out of production. If anything Nader killed the innovation which had been making vehicles safer over the previous several decades.

[Autumn]

119. Yes he was wrong about that. He still did a lot of good. People have a mixture of

good faults and bad faults. And no one makes no mistakes.

[Scurrilous]

11. ...

[BigmanPigman]

12. He just said he expects the moron to

fire Sessions and Rosenstein and put Giuliani in as the Att. Gen. when he gets scared enough. YIKES!

[jodymarie aimee]

16. he has always been my hero

brilliant man....he is speaking truth to power as he always has. Not many like him, no agenda, he is purity. DEMS will always have to own losing to this crook Trump. We should have won in a landslide. We all know this. Mal, me and everyone here.

[wasupaloopa]

23. Binders are comfotable for some I guess.

[BannonsLiver]

64. That cuts both ways.

[MuseRider]

19. Me too!

[lovemydogs]

21. Nadar was right on Ari's program

People have the right to run and if democrats are so scared of third parties, then take away their agenda: housing, college, healthcare and lay off bending over to the corporate class

[malaise]

26. Ding ding

We have a winner

[Blue_Tires]

34. Who said we're "scared" of third parties?

Please tell me Ari asked about this:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/fake-green-party-candidate-exposed-as-having-ties-to-republican-congressman

[Autumn]

35. Nader was one of the driving forces in creating the Environmental Protection Agency.

[Demsrule86]

51. And then he helped elect Bush who gutted environmental protection...screw him.

[Autumn]

58. The Supreme Court made that decision.

[Demsrule86]

59. Yeah and Bush's justices made gave the righties the majority...without Nader we would not have

United.

[jrthin]

83. We have a winner here! nt

[Demsrule86]

125. Same with the Russian Princess Jill Stein...the Greens should hide their heads in shame...they have

single handedly set environmental law back a generation...they should change their names to 'fuck the environment (send a check)'.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

136. And beavers were one of the driving forces in the design of the Hoover Dam.

[Autumn]

140. I'll give credit where credit is due. I don't seek or expect perfection.

YMMV.

[vsrazdem]

47. Agree. I thought he was spot on.

I've never agreed with the concept of some that we should have just 2 parties. If people vote for third parties or more, they must align more with their message. Don't blame the voters, change the message.

[Demsrule86]

126. This is how we got Trump...our system will never support third parties...all you get is Republicans.

I would have though people would realize this. Democrats are your only shot at stopping the GOP...you vote third party, you vote for a Republican to destroy all progressive policy. We support the Democratic Party here...not third parties.

[Adrahil]

104. That is naive bullshittery. NT

[Demsrule86]

128. Nader is still an idiot and believe his own propaganda....I won't watch Ari if he continues to have

guests who advocate for third parties which is really advocating for the GOP.

[cynatnite]

25. I don't support anyone whose willing to drive the entire truck off a cliff

rather than acquiesce to the better and more reasonable driver.

Anyone can go on TV and speak truth to power, but it doesn't mean they're worth following.

[MyOwnPeace]

56. Got 'ya covered!

That's my thinking also.

Yes, he HAS done many good things, but.......................

(see: Rove supports Nadar - says it all...................)

Judas WAS selected as one of the "honored 12"

How did THAT turn out?

[Gothmog]

27. Nader was funded by Rove and Rove used Nader to win in 2000

I will never forgive nader Rove funded Nader in 2000 and 2004 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-zuesse/ralph-nader-was-indispens_b_4235065.html

Furthermore, Karl Rove and the Republican Party knew this, and so they nurtured and crucially assisted Nader’s campaigns, both in 2000 and in 2004. On 27 October 2000, the AP’s Laura Meckler headlined “GOP Group To Air Pro-Nader TV Ads.” She opened: “Hoping to boost Ralph Nader in states where he is threatening to hurt Al Gore, a Republican group is launching TV ads featuring Nader attacking the vice president [Mr. Gore]. ... ‘Al Gore is suffering from election year delusion if he thinks his record on the environment is anything to be proud of,’ Nader says [in the commercial]. An announcer interjects: ‘What’s Al Gore’s real record?’ Nader says: ‘Eight years of principles betrayed and promises broken.’” Meckler’s report continued: “A spokeswoman for the Green Party nominee said that his campaign had no control over what other organizations do with Nader’s speeches.” Bush’s people - the group sponsoring this particular ad happened to be the Republican Leadership Council - knew exactly what they were doing, even though the liberal suckers who voted so carelessly for Ralph Nader obviously did not. Anyone who drives a car the way those liberal fools voted, faces charges of criminal negligence, at the very least. But this time, the entire nation crashed as a result; not merely a single car.....

On July 9th, the San Francisco Chronicle headlined “GOP Doners Funding Nader: Bush Supporters Give Independent’s Bid a Financial Lift,” and reported that the Nader campaign “has received a recent windfall of contributions from deep-pocketed Republicans with a history of big contributions to the party,” according to “an analysis of federal records.” Perhaps these contributors were Ambassador Egan’s other friends. Mr. Egan’s wife was now listed among the Nader contributors. Another listed was “Nijad Fares, a Houston businessman, who donated $200,000 to the Bush inaugural committee and who donated $2,000 each to the Nader effort and the Bush campaign this year.” Furthermore, Ari Berman reported 7 October 2004 at the Nation, under “Swift Boat Veterans for Nader,” that some major right-wing funders of a Republican smear campaign against Senator John Kerry’s Vietnam service contributed also $13,500 to the Nader campaign, and that “the Republican Party of Michigan gathered ninety percent of Nader’s signatures in their state” (90%!) to place Nader on the ballot so Bush could win that swing state’s 17 electoral votes. Clearly, the word had gone out to Bush’s big contributors: Help Ralphie boy! In fact, on 15 September 2005, John DiStaso of the Manchester Union-Leader, reported that, “A year ago, as the Presidential general election campaign raged in battleground state New Hampshire, consumer advocate Ralph Nader found his way onto the ballot, with the help of veteran Republican strategist David Carney and the Carney-owned Norway Hill Associates consulting firm.”

It was obvious, based upon the 2000 election results, that a dollar contributed to Nader in the 2004 contest would probably be a more effective way to achieve a Bush win against Kerry in the U.S. Presidential election than were perhaps even ten dollars contributed to Bush. This was a way of peeling crucial votes off from Bush’s real opponent - votes that otherwise would have gone to the Democrat. That’s why the smartest Republican money in the 2004 Presidential election was actually going to Nader, even more so than to Bush himself: these indirect Bush contributions provided by far the biggest bang for the right-wing buck.

[DURHAM D]

29. Yep.

In 2016 the Republicans, and the Russians helped, did the same thing. Different candidate same strategy.

[mcar]

62. Nader pledged to not campaign actively in close states in 2000

He lied. He campaigned vigorously in FL, with that idiotic "both parties are the same" crap. He made the vote close enough for SCOTUS to steal it.

I live here. I won't forget or forgive.

[Gothmog]

65. Nader took Rove's money and Rove funded nader for a reason

Rove got his money's worth from Nader. Nader lied and actually worked to help Rove elect Bush

[mcar]

66. It's an all too familiar pattern with Green candidates

[ehrnst]

135. Interesting how Rove's superpac helped to shape the last election...

By running attack ads on HRC before July of 2016.

[Gothmog]

138. Rove is a dangerous and smart man

I noticed that also

[standingtall]

30. We got citizens united and the Roberts court

in part due to Ralph Nader splitting the vote in Florda as well as democrats refusing to vote Democratic in 2000.

[Gothmog]

43. Do not forget the gutting of the Voting Rights Act

I am having to deal with the effects of the gutting of the voting rights act due to Nader's stupidity and arrogance

[LisaM]

54. And Citizens United led to Trump (along with undoing the Voting Rights Act).

Nader flat-out lied about how he wouldn't run in states where the race was competitive. He also said Gore and Bush were so alike there "wasn't a dime's worth of distance" between them. I think the environment would beg to differ on that.

Nader had a lot of respect when he was working as a consumer advocate, but it's like someone flipped a switch in his head. By the time he was running for President, he was harsh and rasping. I remember all kinds of stories going around about how he treated people who worked for him.

[Blue_Tires]

31. This once-proud and unapologetic Nader 2000 voter says Ralph can piss right the fuck off...

Naturally he's pissing all over the Dems and he'll almost certainly tell everyone to forget about the distraction of KremlinGate so the dudebros are practically orgasmic right now...

Kucinich, Nader...Where are they digging up these fossils from?

[Bleacher Creature]

32. Seriously? He cost us the WH and helped elect W. That's not a small thing. NT

[Downtown Hound]

33. A list of Ralph Nader's acomplishements:

Getting George W. Bush elected and causing:
The Iraq War
the deadliest terrorist attack in history
8 lost years on global warming
The loss of civil rights in America
Our government legalizing torture
The greatest economic crisis in three generations

Oh and, a long time ago he made a big stink about the Chevy Corvair, a car which would later prove to not be anywhere near as bad as Nader had claimed and effectively killed interest in smaller, compact, European style cars from American manufacturers.

Watta guy!

https://jalopnik.com/brave-man-tries-to-roll-himself-over-in-a-corvair-and-m-1820521301

https://www.coolridesonline.net/news-blog/was-the-corvair-as-bad-as-ralph-nader-claimed/

[Hekate]

37. All my friends have their little foibles that I overlook. Enjoy.

[malaise]

44. Hehehehehe

[Stallion]

38. The Green Party Has Done as Much as Any Group to Destroy Environmental Protections

...Congrats on their contributions in electing Bush and trump

[samnsara]

40. i found him to be judgy and condescending...but thats just MY opinion...

...many of the traits i hate.

[Gothmog]

41. Nader is the reason why Bush was elected

Nader gave the election to bush in 2000 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-zuesse/ralph-nader-was-indispens_b_4235065.html

Nader-voters who spurned Democrat Al Gore to vote for Nader ended up swinging both Florida and New Hampshire to Bush in 2000. Charlie Cook, the editor of the Cook Political Report and political analyst for National Journal, called "Florida and New Hampshire" simply "the two states that Mr. Nader handed to the Bush-Cheney ticket," when Cook was writing about "The Next Nader Effect," in The New York Times on 9 March 2004. Cook said, "Mr. Nader, running as the Green Party nominee, cost Al Gore two states, Florida and New Hampshire, either of which would have given the vice president [Gore] a victory in 2000. In Florida, which George W. Bush carried by 537 votes, Mr. Nader received nearly 100,000 votes [nearly 200 times the size of Bush's Florida 'win']. In New Hampshire, which Mr. Bush won by 7,211 votes, Mr. Nader pulled in more than 22,000 [three times the size of Bush's 'win' in that state]." If either of those two states had gone instead to Gore, then Bush would have lost the 2000 election; we would never have had a U.S. President George W. Bush, and so Nader managed to turn not just one but two key toss-up states for candidate Bush, and to become the indispensable person making G.W. Bush the President of the United States -- even more indispensable, and more important to Bush's "electoral success," than were such huge Bush financial contributors as Enron Corporation's chief Ken Lay.

All polling studies that were done, for both the 2000 and the 2004 U.S. Presidential elections, indicated that Nader drained at least 2 to 5 times as many voters from the Democratic candidate as he did from the Republican Bush. (This isn't even considering throw-away Nader voters who would have stayed home and not voted if Nader had not been in the race; they didn't count in these calculations at all.) Nader's 97,488 Florida votes contained vastly more than enough to have overcome the official Jeb Bush / Katherine Harris / count, of a 537-vote Florida "victory" for G.W. Bush. In their 24 April 2006 detailed statistical analysis of the 2000 Florida vote, "Did Ralph Nader Spoil a Gore Presidency?" (available on the internet), Michael C. Herron of Dartmouth and Jeffrey B. Lewis of UCLA stated flatly, "We find that ... Nader was a spoiler for Gore." David Paul Kuhn, CBSNews.com Chief Political Writer, headlined on 27 July 2004, "Nader to Crash Dems Party?" and he wrote: "In 2000, Voter News Service exit polling showed that 47 percent of Nader's Florida supporters would have voted for Gore, and 21 percent for Mr. Bush, easily covering the margin of Gore's loss." Nationwide, Harvard's Barry C. Burden, in his 2001 paper at the American Political Science Association, "Did Ralph Nader Elect George W. Bush?" (also on the internet) presented "Table 3: Self-Reported Effects of Removing Minor Party Candidates," showing that in the VNS exit polls, 47.7% of Nader's voters said they would have voted instead for Gore, 21.9% said they would have voted instead for Bush, and 30.5% said they wouldn't have voted in the Presidential race, if Nader were had not been on the ballot. (This same table also showed that the far tinier nationwide vote for Patrick Buchanan would have split almost evenly between Bush and Gore if Buchanan hadn't been in the race: Buchanan was not a decisive factor in the outcome.) The Florida sub-sample of Nader voters was actually too small to draw such precise figures, but Herron and Lewis concluded that approximately 60% of Florida's Nader voters would have been Gore voters if the 2000 race hadn't included Nader. Clearly, Ralph Nader drew far more votes from Gore than he did from Bush, and on this account alone was an enormous Republican asset in 2000.

[redstateblues]

53. There are still those who can't accept the truth

[randr]

45. I used to love Ralph

He took on the auto industry and made our world safer.
While the Corvair was responsible for deaths by poor design, it was also the only American compact vs. VWs and a number of new imports.
As Ralph waged his war against GM the Ford Pinto was killing more people due to a similar design flaw.
You may be interested in looking into Ralphs associations w the Ford Motor Co.
Following the suit against GM and the utter destruction of Corvair production America began building bigger gas guzzling muscle cars. It took a decade for us to wise up and start completing in the world market for compact fuel efficient cars.

[Eliot Rosewater]

46. Not me, I loved him when he did his job as a consumer advocate but when

he interfered and GAVE US bush as prez I didnt love him anymore

[Demsrule86]

48. I hate him with the passion of 1000 burning suns...he got us in two wars, got us united, a couple of

shitty SCOTUS judges, shitty tax cuts, Katrina...the towers fell in New York because Nader helped elect George Bush.

Edited to include...he crashed the economy causing millions to lose everything.

[MyOwnPeace]

61. But,

he was looking out for our best interests, right?

[Demsrule86]

71. Yeah for sure...an environmentalist who helped 'save' the environment by electing GOP types...

[MyOwnPeace]

91. My GAWD!!!!!!!!

"an environmentalist who helped 'save' the environment by electing GOP types"

Ain't THAT the truth!!!

[Demsrule86]

129. It is the truth.

[Sneederbunk]

49. Disappointment not hate.

[oberliner]

50. Loathsome individual who gave us President Bush

Another Jill Stein.

[appalachiablue]

57. "String him up & feed him to the dawgs!" Jeesh

[mcar]

60. Love you, malaise

But I detest that phony.

[Stuart G]

69. Stange....mixed bag..shit and the very best wine/cheese...

Yes...absolutely Yes...Nader and the seat belt laws have saved tens of thousands of lives.

Yes...absolutely Yes...Nader in the 2000 election, may have, probably did tip the election to Bush..

that election of Bush cost hundreds of billions and killed tens of thousands of lives...

Nader was clearly behind safety regulations that made cars a whole lot safer....and saved lives..sorry it is the truth....54000 killed on the highways in 79
....35,000 killed last year, even though tens of millions more cars than 79 and tens of millions of more people than in 79..(yes those numbers are accurate, you can look them up)..In addition safety devices have lessoned injuries greatly..) know someone whose life saved by an airbag?..

.............By electing Bush in 2000, the number of deaths in the Iraq war..?? U.S. troops?? ,,,,,,4,424 total deaths and 31,952 wounded in action . Iraqis killed, tens of thousands..perhaps has many as 150,000..Government changed..country more divided..was it worth it?? ...my opinion...saved lives, yes..and a complete asshole...couldn't shut the fuck up and stay out of the 2000 election..

[MyOwnPeace]

94. Stu,

You've covered the reason for the disparity with regard to Ralph Nader.

As you've cited, great reasons to love him - and other reasons to despise him.

I'm sure that we could make this thread go on forever, only to be interrupted for reasons NOT to nominate IQ45 for the Nobel Peace Prize!

Great response - thank you!

[malaise]

73. Love you back

andthat's your right

[Uncle Joe]

67. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, malaise

[malaise]

72. Man it's so good to see you

[Uncle Joe]

114. It's good to see you too malaise

[MineralMan]

68. Well, he made it possible for me to buy a

low-mileage 1960 red Corvair in 1969 for $100. Great little car! Thanks, Ralph!

[malaise]

75. I see that the Corvair is a big factor

[MineralMan]

121. If I were going to have an early 60s car, as so many men

in my age group do, it would be a 60-62 Corvair, with a licence plate that read: UNSAFE

[eleny]

70. "...300,000 Democrats in Florida voted for Bush in 2000"

There's an inconvenient truth he pointed out.

I find it amusing how people are incensed over Nader but his message is so much like Bernie's and the things so may DUers want to see happen. Things like Medicare for all. But when certain facts are put on ignore I guess it's easier to blame Nader than face our own shortcomings as a Party.

All Gore should have broadened his recount request. And it would have been peachy if he could have won his own state.

Around here Nader has become a meme like The Olive Garden or Thom Hartmann. Strong triggers for raising blood pressure.

Take care, sis.

[MyOwnPeace]

97. That may be true............

There are a number of things that cost "Us - Gore" the 2000 election:

1. Supreme court
2. Poor campaign strategy by Gore
3. Supreme Court
4. 3rd. party candidate (Ralph Nader)

Yes, any one of those being "gone" would have made our world different.

And one of them is RALPH NADER.

[eleny]

100. .

..... .....

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

74. Last time I heard from Ralph Nader he was at a Cisco shareholders meeting

bitching that his dividend was too small. He's a sellout.

[Raine]

78. I don't hate him, I did after 2000 but

Last edited Fri May 11, 2018, 02:46 AM - Edit history (1)

I came to terms with that. I blame the Supremes. I'm done with hating on someone because they chose to run for office which is their right to do whether I think they should've or not.

[Stuart G]

80. I'll say it again...mixed bag.......Nader created the safety movement in cars...

which.........saved tens of thousands of lives over the years...(check out auto deaths after 84 you will see a significant reduction.....)..hit this link and look at deaths after 1980..(began to go down significantly after seatbelts were required and other safety devices...1984..Just as important,,,safety regulations reduced significant injuries by tens of thousands. People with minor injuries...could have been killed without the seatbelts, airbags, crumple zones...etc..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year


Nader resulted in Bush getting elected...Bush defines the word..asshole

Bush/ asshole....was so bad, resulted in Obama being elected...guess what?..Obama also saved tens of thousands of lives...with health care legislation...Would Obama have been elected, if Bush were not such a complete asshole?....what do you think?...

[George II]

82. How many were killed in Iraq because of bush? How many are still being killed because...

...of bush's ineptitude and Dick Cheney's warmongering?

I don't think they balance out at all.

[Stuart G]

85. You can say what you want..you said, "I don't think they balace out at all."

after all this is a "discussion" forum....there are people here right now at this forum,,,(maybe not on this thread) ...whose lives were saved by the safety belts and airbags., or family members.

......so for them..it does indeed balance out..

[George II]

86. Yes, I'm sure there are some whose lives were saved by safety belts and airbags....

....only to be killed by an IED in Iraq.

Nader should have stopped with seat belts and airbags.

[Stuart G]

88. Yes...IEDs in Iraq..killed thousands...Yes...

It isn't pretty.

Yes. Nader was responsible for "Bush" in some states..like Florida..Ok..
Yes...he should have stopped with .."seat belts and airbags"..and he didn't.....The truth to me, is still the truth to me.....Nader is a mixed bag..

[George II]

89. All it took was Florida, by a few thousand votes: bush 277, Gore 266, Florida was worth 25.

[ms liberty]

111. My mother's life was saved by a seat belt when she was run off the road

And went down a hill, ploughing through trees before coming to rest against one. Two days before Christmas. Because of the seat belt in her car, she had nothing worse than a cracked rib and some bruising. She went on to live a healthy life for nearly six more years, before a fatal heart attack. She was my best friend, and the most important person in our lives. She got to see her only grandchild live to six before she died, and that granddaughter was old enough that she remembers her Granny to this day, when she tells her own daughter, my mother's namesake, about her. Next to that, I don't give a shit about Nader's 2000 campaign, which IMO was NOT responsible for Itaq.

[WhiteTara]

87. I think he is a fraud and nothing he has ever done

was done from an altruistic place but one where he was paid to ratf**k something or someone. His first hit was small cars for Detroit. Who paid him to fuck the 2000 election is unknown to me but fuck the election he did.

I forgive you this error in judgement

[marybourg]

90. Me too.

[Adrahil]

92. Be sure to thank for Dubya.

Can’t stand the self-righteous prick.

[marybourg]

95. Without Dubya there wouldn't have been Obama.

[sweetloukillbot]

98. And then Nader wouldn't have had the opportunity to call the first black president "Uncle Tom"

Racist asshole

[Adrahil]

105. Do think hundreds of thousands of deaths was worth it?

I mean, I love Obama. But damn...

[Demsrule86]

130. W caused so much damage...and we are still at war because of him. There is

no good from Nader...his election of George Bush II...cancelled out any good he eve did.

[Stuart G]

96. The "pricks of the world"...do not want to be associated with ...Dubya...

more of an..."asshole" ..or..." stupid fuck up." maybe "idiots delight"...

I got one more brilliant idea ...I always thought there could be no worse than ...Dubya...

nothing could be stupider, or a bigger lying sack of shit...but ....I got to tell you...I could be wrong..

[dreamland]

106. People change.

Some for the worse.

[ProfessorGAC]

113. Sorry Malaise. Not With You On This One

He's been spectacularly wrong about a lot of stuff and never admitted he was wrong.

Corvair: Data proves he was wrong.

You mentioned seat belts. Engineers at GM were already designing those, including after market products before anyone ever heard of Nader.

And "both parties are the same" is an unforgiveable blind spot, that is so obviously wrong that i can't forget or forgive the promotion of that theme.

[The_jackalope]

115. I knew there was a reason I liked you,

You free-thinker, you!

[kentuck]

116. I think Ralph has said and done a lot of stuff Democrats disagree with...

...and he felt they treated him like a lost lamb from the Democratic flock. But, I'm not sure he was ever a Democrat? However, he would probably argue that the Party left him?

Ralph Nader is a very intelligent, socially-conscious individual and many people see him as part of the "real" Democratic Party. Unfortunately, this is where the conversation usually goes on two tracks.

[malaise]

127. I have discovered this to be true

You nailed it

[ehrnst]

117. I liked him until he became convinced he was presidential material. (nt)

[dalton99a]

118. +1

[betsuni]

123. +1

[Uncle Joe]

124. I wish Ralph had never ran against Al Gore but I can't hate someone

for following their conscience.

Whether one decides to run for political office or not is what America is supposed to be all about.

I also try to consider a person's life work in the balance.

[Demsrule86]

131. I hate him, Jill Stein and Nina Turner...all helped give us a GOP shitbag as president...W

did an enormous amount of damage...Trump will be worse. All the above should change their party to Republican...it is who they are...and any that think third parties are the answer should examine Europe...not the rosy picture people paint here but the reality of it...in any case our system does not nor will support third parties and those who vote for progressive third parties elect Republicans and deserve our contempt. 23,000 old people tossed out of nursing homes in Mississippi and it is because Trump was elected that this is happening and it will happen elsewhere too. Trump is a monster and those who support Greens helped elect him...as did those who supported Nader help elect George Bush...and I have nothing but disgust for people who would do this.

[Uncle Joe]

133. Don't let your hate consume you Demsrule.

As for Europe, the happiest nations in the world are there.

"Finland is top of the world for happiness, according to the World Happiness Report 2018, closely followed by Norway, Denmark, Iceland, Switzerland and the Netherlands.

Nordic countries take four out of the five top spots, and are well known to be stable, safe and socially progressive. There is very little corruption, and the police and politicians are trusted."

(snip)








https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/03/these-are-the-happiest-countries-in-the-world/

As for Trump and Bush they were inevitable products of our dysfunctional political, corporate media conglomerate, corporate domination system.

[Demsrule86]

134. I turn it into action...and support candidates who can mitigate the damage...Democratic Candidates.

I won't vote for a third party or independent candidate in any primary.

[ehrnst]

139. Indeed. The only thing that has worked in getting progress in the last 40 years. (nt)

[Demsrule86]

146. That is correct...and how much better would things be if there had been no

Nader or Jill Stein?

[ehrnst]

137. The top countries on that list are very homogenous, very white protestant nations.

When you have a homogenous population, there is less variation in opinon, and little dissent - much like Vermont.

Diversity is loud and raucous sometimes, and more of a challenge to get consensus, but it's the future.

And, contrary to what some claim, their economic model does not erase racism, misogyny and xenophobia.

https://dutchreview.com/featured/the-comeback-of-homophobia-in-the-netherlands/

https://dutchreview.com/culture/living-in-the-netherlands/racism-in-the-netherlands/

http://www.europeanyoungfeminists.eu/2016/11/21/a-brief-history-of-sexual-harassment-in-finland-in-one-hashtag/

https://www.cnn.com/2016/10/07/opinions/xenophobia-over-rationality-mammone/index.html

Don't let hate for our current political climate consume you, Uncle Joe. A Democracy in diverse population is messy, but diversity is a good thing.

[Uncle Joe]

144. Japan is also a homogenous nation ehrnst but they don't rank high on the happiness scale.

From the same article to which you responded to

"But some of the world’s richest nations, including the US and Japan, are found much further down the list.

The disparity between wealth and happiness has caused policymakers to broaden their scope and look for other indicators to assess the health of nations, rather than just measuring economic success through GDP."

(snip)

"This report is based on international surveys in which thousands of respondents were asked to imagine a ladder with steps numbered 0 to 10 and say where they felt they stood.

And it cites six significant factors which contribute to happiness; GDP per capita, social support, life expectancy, freedom to make life choices, generosity and corruption levels."


https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/03/these-are-the-happiest-countries-in-the-world/

As for us, I do believe diversity to be one of our primary strengths. I also agree it does produce more challenges in passing progressive American People friendly policies mostly because our differences make creating or widening instinctive fault lines by demagogues all the easier and for establishment/corporate conglomerate powers to practice the fault line politics of division which in effect creates a plurality of disenfranchised Americans in the tens of millions.

I love America but our political system is dysfunctional made even worse by Citizens United and that's why I support long overdue progressive change.

We as a nation should never be too proud to learn the best lessons from other nations around the world, it's that pride thing that will get you in trouble.

[ehrnst]

150. Long term progressive change is why I'm a Democrat

The politicians in the Democratic Party have been the only ones getting progressive issues advanced in the past 40 years.

That's not blind "pride," that's a matter of record.

While Europe provides some examples of successes, we cannot replicate all of the things Europe has done. Again - a homogenous population is far more likely to consense on an issue, more likely to accept that social programs will benefit "their" people. They have smaller populations, and many of their social programs were built from the ashes of WW2. Health care for instance - if we had gone with Truman's proposal for a national health care system, it would be possible to be on par with Europe. But now we have a huge part of our economy and culture tied up with our current system. The ACA is the farthest we've gotten toward universal health care coverage, and that is a Democratic accomplishment.

Just like we may observe, but are not going to replicate, the passenger rail system that Europe has - not only because of the car culture here that didn't take as strong a foothold in Eurpot, but because the infrastructure there was built prior to cars, and the infrastructure here is used primarily for freight trains.

So, no, we aren't going to have any success trying to imitate Europe, but we can apply concepts like the public/private mechanisms they use in a program like the ACA, and move us toward a more comprehensive social safety net. The happiness list only lists characteristics of the happiest countries - not the reasons that they are. I assume that you have your own ideas on what came first...

And no, I didn't say or imply that homogenity is a guarantee of happiness. You assumed the inverse of that data point - not me. I simply pointed out that it is a unifying factor in the top happiness rated countries.

Is that clearer?

[Uncle Joe]

152. In the last 40 years the middle class has greatly shrunk, the poor are even more destitute

income inequality is at ridiculously tragic levels and we imprison more people than any nation on Earth

The current system of for profit "health" insurance is dysfunctional, immoral and an economic basket case.

There is no redeeming value to it.

I have always believed if you think you can't do something you're correct because you don't even try or you give it a half-hearted effort.

Having said that if we as a nation believe we can change our policies and ways of thinking for the better, then we can.

However so long as our national focus is on benefiting the less than 1% and major corporate conglomerations over the best interests of the American Public we will fail.

I don't want us to imitate Europe, I want us to excel over them

I never meant to imply that you believed "homogeneity to be a guarantee of happiness" but that it can create additional difficulties in passing progressive change because the corporate powers that be and America's oligarchs know how to play one side off against the other, at least that's what I believe.

[ehrnst]

157. So you don't acknowledge the progress for LGBTQs, Women, POC

Last edited Fri May 11, 2018, 01:25 PM - Edit history (1)

that is only been possible because of Democrats? None of that means anything to you?

You wouldn't be a straight, white male by any chance?

The ACA is the closest we have come to the European model of health care - even with the damage done to it by the GOP. It was also a Democratic accomplishment.

"Having said that if we as a nation believe we can change our policies and ways of thinking for the better, then we can."

A couple of things with that statement - "we as a nation" don't often agree - we are more divided than ever. Salespeople and politicians have a lot to gain telling people that something's possible if we just....

No, wishing doesn't make something possible - and again, you try to use the inverse to prove a statement wrong. The reason I don't jump off a roof is that I know I can't fly. Call that defeatist, or uninspired but I'm still around to put my energy into things I know are possble.

Berating and belittling those that actually can and do get progress done, doesn't get us anywhere.

You can yell and wag fingers that something is wrong - that's easy. I can do that myself in the comfort of my own home. Actually offering actionable strategies to improve things is something else indeed. I will listen to and vote for the one who offers the latter.

Is that clearer?

Anyone who says fixing health care is "simple" or doable in less than 20 years is either willfully ignoring those who actually know about these things or lying. And they are wasting their breath if they want to continue to simply yell about how bad things are. Words are cheap, and so is "symbolic" or "aspirational" legislation.

I never meant to imply that you believed "homogeneity to be a guarantee of happiness" but that it can create additional difficulties in passing progressive change because the corporate powers that be and America's oligarchs know how to play one side off against the other, at least that's what I believe..

I can't really understand what that runon sentence means or how the second part of it relates to the first. Can you clarify what homogeniety has to do with oligharchs?



Again, don't let hate for our current political climate consume you, Uncle Joe. That takes away from one's ability to act on it in a positive way - like voting Democratic.

[jrthin]

153. It's okay to follow one's conscience. But, in following

that conscience, one must question to see if that conscience is reasonable. Too often we assume following one's conscience is reasonable or even sane.

[Uncle Joe]

154. Considering the odds against Bernie, how well he did, how some Democratic Political leaders

are shifting toward his position on major policies that he has promoted for decades and the volumes of academic arguments supporting the logic of his positions, I believe the evidence to be most compelling that Bernie's arguments are if anything more than reasonable but wise and necessary as well.

[ehrnst]

166. I never said I hated him.

Please go lecture someone who does, and don't trip over that strawman you knocked over.

There seems to be a dualistic mindset among some that a public figure must either be given absolute adoration or absolute disgust. I'm not one of among those of that mind.

But since you decided to go down that road, yes, he did some damage to our country, and to progressive causes and candidates who came after.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/the_next_20/2016/09/ralph_nader_and_the_tragedy_of_voter_as_consumer_politics.html

[Uncle Joe]

169. I never said you hated him, I told you how I felt. Of course there are plenty of people here

that do hate him, one of which responded to the same post that you just did.

The corporate media conglomerates did far more damage against Al than Nader's run in 2000 and have done it for a longer period of time, I view Al Gore as a modern day Prometheus with the Internet being fire.

The corporate media conglomerates hated Al Gore precisely because he did champion opening up the Internet for the American People.

This threatened the corporate media conglomerates, their owners, CEOs and/or major sponsor purchasers mega-buck gravy train and so they proceeded to slander and libel AL for the better part of two years prior to the selection by the Supreme Court.

[CanSocDem]

120. I wonder who DU'ers hate more...

...and why. President Trump or Ralph Nader?

This thread highlites the confusion.

.

[Blue_Tires]

141. Really?

You're serious??

[betsuni]

122. Anybody who doesn't know the difference between Dems and Republicans is an idiot.

[LastLiberal in PalmSprings]

132. Nader lied during the election. He said he'd withdraw if the Gore-Bush vote in Florida was close.

He didn't keep his word.

We know the results.

Now he's all sanctimonious about his First Amendment rights.

The Constitution doesn't give you a right to lie.

F*ck you, Ralph.

[CanSocDem]

149. Who would have guessed....

...the fix was in.

Oh that's right...Nader did.


.

[BannonsLiver]

158. ...

[Trumpocalypse]

148. Have you thanked him for helping to give us

9/11 and the Iraq & Afghanistan wars.

[G_j]

151. that is very brave of you to say here

I totally respect your opinion. I may not love him, but he has done many good things. I don’t blame him for Bush, and I actually find it offensive that people blame him while ignoring the racist disenfranchisement of African American voters, and the impassioned protest of the Congressional Black Caucus in the wake of the election that was completely ignored.

Nader is a smart guy, and has a lot of useful knowledge and insights.
Unfortunately a lot of people are consumed in hatred towards him. Though there are plenty of others on our side that get that treatment also. Michael Moore comes to mind.

[malaise]

155. Very well said and Michael Moore does come to mind

Thank you

[G_j]

160. maybe this

[malaise]

164. +1,000

Observe the difference with the thiefing ReTHUGs since November 2016.

[scheming daemons]

156. He has done more damage to this country in the past 20 years than ANYONE on the left

The Iraq war is on him. The financial crisis of 2008 is on him.

Why?

Because he chose to syphon votes away from Al Gore in 2000. He got 50,000+ votes in Florida in 2000... and Gore lost by less than 600 votes.

It is virtually a guarantee that most of those 50,000+ would've voted for Gore if Nader wasn't on the ballot.


By splitting the left vote JUST enough, he gave us Bush/Cheney and resulted in thousands dead in Iraq.

[ismnotwasm]

162. A little bored today are we?

[TNLib]

165. I like him for his consumer advocacy

Not so much as a politician.

[mvd]

167. I like the good work he has done

But I just wish he wouldn't have hurt Gore's chances. Imagine how different things could be now.

[wonkwest]

171. What was he saying?

I don’t watch cable news, but I’m curious to know what he was saying that interested you so much

[workinclasszero]

173. Trump and the fascist GOP love him too!