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LuckyCharms

(17,426 posts)
Fri May 18, 2018, 09:32 PM May 2018

Please do not let anyone frame the gun argument in terms of school shootings.

Reduce the number of entrances and exits at schools. Arm teachers. Have "safe rooms" in schools. Blah, blah, blah.

No.

The problem is not school shootings. The problem is shootings.

Schools. Churches. Concerts. Movie theaters. Political rallies. Malls. Anywhere.

11 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Please do not let anyone frame the gun argument in terms of school shootings. (Original Post) LuckyCharms May 2018 OP
K&R for visibility. nt tblue37 May 2018 #1
Domestic violence, intimidation, too. Good point, turning schools into armed fortresses won't Hoyt May 2018 #2
Thoughts and prayers guss May 2018 #3
Amen, Brotha! Preach it! Witness to me. . . Nt flamin lib May 2018 #4
Ping! Nail on the head. KPN May 2018 #5
I saw something earlier today that said PoindexterOglethorpe May 2018 #6
You are so right thinkingagain May 2018 #7
Just My Perspective Westcoast52 May 2018 #8
I think you're right. Captain Stern May 2018 #9
Yes it is. Igel May 2018 #10
This is exactly the type of discussion that must be brought into the debate LuckyCharms May 2018 #11
 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
2. Domestic violence, intimidation, too. Good point, turning schools into armed fortresses won't
Fri May 18, 2018, 09:37 PM
May 2018

change anything, even if no one in a school is ever shot again.

guss

(239 posts)
3. Thoughts and prayers
Fri May 18, 2018, 10:06 PM
May 2018

I wonder if instead of giving thoughts and prayers.
That NRA Gun Owners would get rid of one gun. For the Each Mass Shooting in America.
To Give A Sacrifice of themselves, For Lives that are Sacrificed for ownership of guns

PoindexterOglethorpe

(25,857 posts)
6. I saw something earlier today that said
Fri May 18, 2018, 11:53 PM
May 2018

something like 2 percent of all gun deaths in this country are from school shootings. It's just that those shootings tend to get a lot of coverage. Most of them are the one or two shooting deaths that occur every single day, from all of the many specific circumstances that are involved.

I've seen gun apologists here who think that because half, maybe more than half of all gun deaths are from suicide, that somehow that's okay and is a reason not to ban or limit guns in any way. But without guns, almost none of those suicides would happen. Yes, people still find, and will continue to find, other ways to kill themselves. But all too often the presence of a gun makes an impulsive action irrevocable.

Perhaps I could give a pass on gun suicides, but I will NEVER give a pass on those who use guns to murder innocents.

thinkingagain

(906 posts)
7. You are so right
Sat May 19, 2018, 12:12 AM
May 2018

I also say let those that don’t want to make safer gun laws be volunteers at each entrance to places that a shooting may occur after all they want teachers to do why shouldn’t they do it first. I even say start with Trump and the GOP ( no secret service body guards tho) and the ceo of the nra as they are the ones refusing to even attempt to bring up safer gun laws.
Cowards!! They will never but they want teachers to next they will excpect the 14 year old movie popcorn boy to be the gun carrier for the theater I guess.

 

Westcoast52

(34 posts)
8. Just My Perspective
Sat May 19, 2018, 12:57 AM
May 2018

The first massacres that I recall were Charles Whitman/Texas Bell Tower and the McDonald's/San Isidro shooting that left 19 dead--
just for getting a burger at the wrong time. When I was a kid, America was just as heavily armed then as now, minus the military
knock-offs. No one flashed guns. No one worshiped and glorified them publicly. Those obsessed with guns did not have tons of
gun porn to drool over. Guns were respected, and considered necessary like plows and rakes. After Vietnam, movies and T.V. shows
started demonizing the crazy vet shooting up everything. This was long before America discovered Muslim terrorists. Over time,
a conditioning process started where no one was safe without a Dirty Harry special (70s). As more broken human beings from our
wars returned, plus news about ghetto drug wars, plus weird criminal acts (Helter-Skelter; Chowchilla Bus Kidnappings) America
was ripe for massive fear marketing. No one was safe without access to any kind of weapon they wanted, and plenty of them.
As a former field artilleryman, I have 'played' with the biggest guns there are. I never had to see the receiving end of what they
can do. I think counter-conditioning would be much more effective than political confrontations. People should be exposed in
some way to the REAL damage guns cause. This is why 'Saving Private Ryan' was such a shock. Sure, crazies won't care,
but a long-term de-conditioning process, over time, will dissuade many. The public will lose its appetite for violent entertainment
that feeds the beast.

Captain Stern

(2,201 posts)
9. I think you're right.
Sat May 19, 2018, 06:59 AM
May 2018

The stuff you mentioned like entrances/exits, arming teachers, safe rooms, etc only address a symptom of a problem...not the actual problem.

I think it's silly to think that an individual that is intent on committing suicide while taking as many lives with him/her as possible would abandon their intent simply because schools were more fortified.

They choose schools because there are a lot of people there. That's a lot of potential victims in a small amount of space. If it was too hard to carry out their plans in a school, I think they would pick another target where there were a lot of people in a relatively small amount of space.

Igel

(35,307 posts)
10. Yes it is.
Sat May 19, 2018, 10:07 AM
May 2018

But my sister in law died of cancer, and so the problem is cancer. They should find a cure for it. Spot the fallacy?

My cousin died of a drug dependency and drug overdose. They should ban drugs. Spot the fallacy there?

There's not one cause of cancer. She had bone cancer. My aunt had colon cancer. What works against one is unlikely to work against the other. There's no such thing as "cancer" except as a generalization that misses so many facts that the word itself becomes an impediment to those on the outside. The way to deal with cancer is to first figure out the categories of cancer, their causes and how they develop and grow. Then you can prevent and treat.

I didn't say if my cousin died of an overdose after being dependent on heroin or Vicodin, whether he got it from the guy at the bar a couple of miles from his house or the doctor a couple of miles from his house. But we could easily ban all the tools he used for his particular self-murder. We tried that. The problem isn't what he used, the problem is that he was (a) dependent on the substance, (b) had a physical need that he couldn't control and (c) felt a psychological need to return to some substance even after he'd been clean for years. The way to treat this is to find a substance that reduces dependence but ultimately to reduce the factors that made him turn to it when he was 16, when he was 26, when he was 36, when he was 46, and when he was 56. Problem is, there were *different* reasons, at least on the surface. The first time was youthful rebellion and wanting to be cool. Another time, because he was exposed to it while he was a petty criminal. The last time, his mother, who was his supporter, encourager, and keeper, had died (of colon cancer) and he couldn't deal with the grief. So "fixing the problem" is complex and would have required the entire family to be close and to help him, not be a bunch of dysfunctional misfits.

Even with drugs banned, we still have people doing the same thing with alcohol, and we saw how wonderful Prohibition was when it came to government dictating and regulating its citizens' behavior in terms of a "higher" morality.

There's not one cause of violence. Eliminate the guns, and you eliminate a tool used for it. It's like eliminating drugs. And when you look at the causes of violence, you find all kinds of reasons for it.

In some cases, it's a loner or an "incel" (a nice dehumanizing word for somebody who feel bad because we set up social standards of physical attractiveness and sexuality that few can live up to, and then pick on those who are less than us ... we defend girls who lack appropriate social skills and body image and pile on the guys). Their grievance isn't with a particular person, but with "society". There's an amorphous "them". Try to imagine Westerns with "them" being the target of some gang member--typically there's a specific gang, the sheriff, a personal vendetta, or the "them" are Indians or some outside group. These kids think of "everybody else" as their other. That's new; I have trouble wrapping my mind around that kind of group thinking, seen both in some of the shooters and in the Parkland kids. It's all "us versus them", not seeing "us in them". And they claim greater empathy, thus showing they never actually looked up the word's traditional meaning.

In other cases, it's somebody who thinking self-expression and acting out one's personal grievance against another person is a good thing. No, it's not. It leads to punches, stabbings, and shootings. But it's a different sort of thing from the mass shootings. We confuse them for politics, but it's like "cancer funding" campaigns that ignore the difference between cancers, or anti-drug campaigns that ignore that alcohol and heroin dependencies have much in common or that banning heroin and crack won't eliminate the underlying pathology. (Yes, I consider that kind of dependency a pathology.)

Then there are shootings because of some criminal activity or suspected criminal activity gone wrong. Maybe it's a drug dealer swindling his supplier, maybe it's a store clerk shooting the robber, maybe it's a guy shooting somebody at the front door because there's a history of break-ins. (The history in this case is important; bad time to be absurdly existentialist and deny that prior actions matter.) That's yet a third category, and it's one that many progressives like to make because the underlying social ill in *some* cases isn't greed but poverty. (It's most often still greed, but that's because we absolve some poor people of greed. One can be poor and content, but that makes no sense to most Americans, esp. those who think that mankind's native condition is prosperity in large abodes with all kinds of nifty toys. Go back 10k years and lifespan was shorter, wellbeing mostly shorter, warfare common, and 'prosperity' meant that half your kids survived to have kids and you weren't nearly starving by the time summer came along.)

Don't know where to put turf wars and "I'm gonna kill him because he's wearing chartreuse, while I'm wearing pink." It's like blue Kangs and red Kangs, green Drazi and purple Drazi. If you like Dr. Who or Babylon 5 you get the references. Both are affirmation of identity against some outside threat. But, you know, I could see somebody "wronged" by being kicked out of a gang unfairly going back and doing a mass shooting of the gang members. Which starts to sound a lot like school shootings, a need to assert self-validation and restore honor before the group that you think wronged you. (Meh. Zero-tolerance is a bad thing.)

LuckyCharms

(17,426 posts)
11. This is exactly the type of discussion that must be brought into the debate
Sat May 19, 2018, 11:02 AM
May 2018

about gun control.

I think that you have a deeper understanding of the problem than probably 99% of the people who are actually in the position to help abate the problem.

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