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DonViejo

(60,536 posts)
Sun May 20, 2018, 09:51 AM May 2018

Texas school had a shooting plan, armed officers and practice. And still 10 people died.

By Todd C. Frankel, Brittney Martin, Tim Craig and Christian Davenport May 19 at 7:03 PM

SANTA FE, TEX. — They, like so many others, thought they had taken the steps to avoid this.

The school district had an active-shooter plan, and two armed police officers walked the halls of the high school. School district leaders had even agreed last fall to eventually arm teachers and staff under the state’s school marshal program, one of the country’s most aggressive and controversial policies intended to get more guns into classrooms.

They thought they were a hardened target, part of what’s expected today of the American public high school in an age when school shootings occur with alarming frequency. And so a death toll of 10 was a tragic sign of failure and needing to do more, but also a sign, to some, that it could have been much worse.

“My first indication is that our policies and procedures worked,” J.R. “Rusty” Norman, president of the school district’s board of trustees, said Saturday, standing exhausted at his front door. “Having said that, the way things are, if someone wants to get into a school to create havoc, they can do it.”

more
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/santa-fe-school-had-a-shooting-plan-armed-officers-and-practice-and-still-10-people-died/2018/05/19/58b1b55e-5b8d-11e8-8b92-45fdd7aaef3c_story.html

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Texas school had a shooting plan, armed officers and practice. And still 10 people died. (Original Post) DonViejo May 2018 OP
All these bullshit "solutions" assume and REQUIRE that there be more shootings. hexola May 2018 #1
No shit. Bullshit solution. More dead kids. Voltaire2 May 2018 #2
Shooter managed to take out the armed officer by shooting him and severely wounding him. LisaL May 2018 #3
And he took down the officer with conventional weapons. Blue_true May 2018 #19
"Their policies and procedures worked"? Ohiogal May 2018 #4
Like, the parents of the dead kids should be grateful, right? Beartracks May 2018 #6
I am not sure how why this person thinks policies and procedures worked either. LisaL May 2018 #7
Yes indeed: they worked just fine for the NRA. n/t Beartracks May 2018 #8
"We may have lost a few children. But we still have our guns!" struggle4progress May 2018 #11
Look, Republicans: A real-world test of your bullshit theories. Beartracks May 2018 #5
A security plan that works. In a large public school system (6 paragraphs) Stuart G May 2018 #9
Yes, but did they have pails of rocks? That is the vital question. old guy May 2018 #10
No amount of "more guns" or "more guards" will make a difference... Sancho May 2018 #12
with regard to no. 8 ooky May 2018 #14
The gunner response on other sites has been more armed officers and teachers needed. n/t Hoyt May 2018 #13
There is no way to prevent the surprise in these situations. Liberal In Texas May 2018 #15
there is no "at the school" solution to these shootings Takket May 2018 #16
This is no solution, schools aren't military battle zones.. appalachiablue May 2018 #17
They were lucky. Blue_true May 2018 #18
What's the kid to do if father doesn't have an assault rifle? LisaL May 2018 #20
It was lucky that is all that he could get his hands on. Blue_true May 2018 #21
 

hexola

(4,835 posts)
1. All these bullshit "solutions" assume and REQUIRE that there be more shootings.
Sun May 20, 2018, 09:57 AM
May 2018

These aren't solutions...

It's a sick attempt to make the gun the hero...posing as a solution.

Voltaire2

(13,023 posts)
2. No shit. Bullshit solution. More dead kids.
Sun May 20, 2018, 10:22 AM
May 2018

It is as pathetically stupid as the duck and cover horseshit my generation got put through as kids. In both cases the real solution is disarmament not fucking active shooter drills.

Shelter in place is the new duck and cover.

LisaL

(44,973 posts)
3. Shooter managed to take out the armed officer by shooting him and severely wounding him.
Sun May 20, 2018, 10:24 AM
May 2018

So what makes anyone thing the same wouldn't happen to the "armed teachers."

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
19. And he took down the officer with conventional weapons.
Sun May 20, 2018, 04:29 PM
May 2018

If that kid had an assault weapon, like carnage would have taken place.

Ohiogal

(31,987 posts)
4. "Their policies and procedures worked"?
Sun May 20, 2018, 10:24 AM
May 2018

Wtf! Ten deaths are acceptable?

ONE death is UNACCEPTABLE!

We need gun control NOW!

Beartracks

(12,809 posts)
6. Like, the parents of the dead kids should be grateful, right?
Sun May 20, 2018, 10:33 AM
May 2018

We should ask those parents if the policies and procedures worked.

=========

LisaL

(44,973 posts)
7. I am not sure how why this person thinks policies and procedures worked either.
Sun May 20, 2018, 10:33 AM
May 2018

They have 10 dead students.
The armed police officer was shot instead of taking the suspect out.
Do they think armed teachers are going to do any better?

Beartracks

(12,809 posts)
5. Look, Republicans: A real-world test of your bullshit theories.
Sun May 20, 2018, 10:27 AM
May 2018

"Good guys with guns," and armed teachers, and active-shooter preparedness -- and thoughts and prayers -- didn't work. Kids are still dying.

========

Stuart G

(38,420 posts)
9. A security plan that works. In a large public school system (6 paragraphs)
Sun May 20, 2018, 10:38 AM
May 2018

Here is a security system that works in the Chicago Public Schools. ..no shootings there..

...Well 10 years ago,..yes...that is not yesterday, I was invited to judge, as a teacher at a program just like the "science fair" that everyone knows about..But it was a history fair for students who did research on Chicago and neighborhood history. So..I went to the high school for the day. I saw that all students had to enter through one entrance where they went through metal detectors and pat searches if necessary......
This was a neighborhood school in the Chicago Public Schools.. not really a fancy school system. And I might add, in a very good neighborhood, and a very high quality school. (ten years ago)

Why?........Columbine I suppose..but I am not sure if it was directly after that, or some years after another shooting. But it seems that many school systems instituted security systems to prevent this, and funded it..(no it ain't cheap..not just one police officer..but a whole program of security).And the Chicago Public Schools is where one of those programs were set this up.....Did so at great expense.....Yes, all students walk through metal detectors.
....But.in certain places many school boards did not think it was/is necessary to spend that kind of money on security..Perhaps that thinking will change. Maybe certain states will think they are "immune to this." Unfortunately, those states are learning the "hard way".........

Sancho

(9,067 posts)
12. No amount of "more guns" or "more guards" will make a difference...
Sun May 20, 2018, 10:45 AM
May 2018

It must be much, much harder for people to have easy access to guns.

Some people are dangerous, and it's hard to figure out which ones out millions; so society must error on the side of restricting access unless someone is deemed likely not dangerous. It's not foolproof, but would make difference and it's doable.

People Control, Not Gun Control

This is my generic response to gun threads where people are shot and killed by the dumb or criminal possession of guns. For the record, I grew up in the South and on military bases. I was taught about firearms as a child, and I grew up hunting, was a member of the NRA, and I still own guns. In the 70’s, I dropped out of the NRA because they become more radical and less interested in safety and training. Some personal experiences where people I know were involved in shootings caused me to realize that anyone could obtain and posses a gun no matter how illogical it was for them to have a gun. Also, easy access to more powerful guns, guns in the hands of children, and guns that weren’t secured are out of control in our society. As such, here’s what I now think ought to be the requirements to possess a gun. I’m not debating the legal language, I just think it’s the reasonable way to stop the shootings. Notice, none of this restricts the type of guns sold. This is aimed at the people who shoot others, because it’s clear that they should never have had a gun.

1.) Anyone in possession of a gun (whether they own it or not) should have a regularly renewed license. If you want to call it a permit, certificate, or something else that's fine.
2.) To get a license, you should have a background check, and be examined by a professional for emotional and mental stability appropriate for gun possession. It might be appropriate to require that examination to be accompanied by references from family, friends, employers, etc. This check is not to subject you to a mental health diagnosis, just check on your superficial and apparent gun-worthyness.
3.) To get the license, you should be required to take a safety course and pass a test appropriate to the type of gun you want to use.
4.) To get a license, you should be over 21. Under 21, you could only use a gun under direct supervision of a licensed person and after obtaining a learner’s license. Your license might be restricted if you have children or criminals or other unsafe people living in your home. (If you want to argue 18 or 25 or some other age, fine. 21 makes sense to me.)
5.) If you possess a gun, you would have to carry a liability insurance policy specifically for gun ownership - and likely you would have to provide proof of appropriate storage, security, and whatever statistical reasons that emerge that would drive the costs and ability to get insurance.
6.) You could not purchase a gun or ammunition without a license, and purchases would have a waiting period.
7.) If you possess a gun without a license, you go to jail, the gun is impounded, and a judge will have to let you go (just like a DUI).
8.) No one should carry an unsecured gun (except in a locked case, unloaded) when outside of home. Guns should be secure when transporting to a shooting event without demonstrating a special need. Their license should indicate training and special carry circumstances beyond recreational shooting (security guard, etc.). If you are carrying your gun while under the influence of drugs or alcohol, you lose your gun and license.
9.) If you buy, sell, give away, or inherit a gun, your license information should be recorded.
10.) If you accidentally discharge your gun, commit a crime, get referred by a mental health professional, are served a restraining order, etc., you should lose your license and guns until reinstated by a serious relicensing process.

Most of you know that a license is no big deal. Besides a driver’s license you need a license to fish, operate a boat, or many other activities. I realize these differ by state, but that is not a reason to let anyone without a bit of sense pack a semiautomatic weapon in public, on the roads, and in schools. I think we need to make it much harder for some people to have guns.

For those who want to argue legality, please reference: The Second Amendment: A Biography by Michael Waldman

ooky

(8,922 posts)
14. with regard to no. 8
Sun May 20, 2018, 01:05 PM
May 2018

amen. We don't need non-law enforcement gun toting idiots walking around our grocery stores with guns strapped to their sides or under their coats. The end result is they will accidentally kill more people than they "save" during the chance commission of a felony, or end up shooting somebody in an unchecked emotional reaction to an altercation with another unarmed store patron. These people are mentals in the form of George Zimmermans. They are, frankly, among the mentals that should not have guns at all. You don't need a gun to go shopping. You do not show good judgement carrying a gun into public shopping places. The second amendment was not intended to exclude the use of common sense.

Liberal In Texas

(13,548 posts)
15. There is no way to prevent the surprise in these situations.
Sun May 20, 2018, 01:10 PM
May 2018

The attacker isn't worried about his own welfare so just charges in and starts killing people. By the time anyone can react you've got a lot of dead kids.

It's the guns pure and simple. Get rid of the guns you get rid of the mass murders.

Takket

(21,563 posts)
16. there is no "at the school" solution to these shootings
Sun May 20, 2018, 01:11 PM
May 2018

by the time someone has arrived there with a military style weapon, it is already too late. A battle is about to occur and the only variable at that point is how many will be killed. So you can give everyone there a gun and hope that somehow you kill the attacker before they can kill any students, but a battle IS going to occur. IMO the only real solution to minimizing attacks is to cut do everything you can top stop the person from ever going to the school armed in the first place and limit the destructive firepower of the weapons(s) they may bring with them

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
18. They were lucky.
Sun May 20, 2018, 04:27 PM
May 2018

That the kid did not have an assault weapon. Their plan did not work, the killer just did not arm up for a maximum kill level.

LisaL

(44,973 posts)
20. What's the kid to do if father doesn't have an assault rifle?
Sun May 20, 2018, 04:42 PM
May 2018

The weapons he used weren't his, they were legally purchased by his father.

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
21. It was lucky that is all that he could get his hands on.
Sun May 20, 2018, 04:49 PM
May 2018

My point was that if he had more firepower, more than 10 people would likely have been killed.

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