"It is time to scrap patriotism."

[Garrett78]

Years ago I read Robert Jensen's thorough deconstruction of the concept known as patriotism. I recommend everyone read it: http://robertwjensen.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Citizens-of-the-Empire-Chapter-3-Patriotism-pdf.pdf

What do you love?
If we use the common definition of patriotism -- love of, and loyalty to, one‟s country -- the first question that arises is, what is meant by country? Nation-states, after all, are not naturally occurring objects. What is the object of our affection and loyalty? In discussions with various community groups and classes since 9/11, I have asked people to explain which aspects of a nation-state -- specifically in the context of patriotism in the United States -- they believe should spark patriotic feelings. Toward whom or what should one feel love and loyalty? The answers offered include the land, the people of a nation, its culture, the leadership, national policies, the nation‟s institutions, and the democratic ideals of the nation. To varying degrees, all seem like plausible answers, yet all fail to provide a coherent answer to that basic question.

The author goes on to explain why each of those answers does not suffice. As he writes in the intro, patriotism is "morally, politically, and intellectually bankrupt."

[7wo7rees]

1. I just sent this a Trumper

I forgot how vital Robert's voice was after 9-11. He is a very great thinker.
My co-worker feels that Colin K is being unpatriotic, so I think this will unlock his brain and start the trip back to reality.

[aeromanKC]

2. The USA USA USA chants during the 1980 Olympic Hockey games was AWESOME!!!

But honestly, recently it has become almost embarrassing to hear it at almost every F'n event it just seems way way way overboard with the Nationalism anymore.

[Duppers]

3. It's tribalism on a global scale.

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people living life in peace, you

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will be as one

[Duppers]

4. Excellent!

Thank you for posting this.

I'm most of the way through the 8 pages and agree that folks should read this.

[PatrickforO]

5. A beautiful essay.

Love of all people and love of the very earth itself. To think, love, plan and act as a species, not as a bunch of 'blood and soil' nation-states.

I like it!

Now, if it could only be.

[pnwmom]

11. It's a pipe dream. n/t

[ck4829]

16. You're told it's a pipe dream by the beneficiaries and pushers of blood and soil nationalism

[pnwmom]

29. No, by the writer himself, who said:

My goal here is not a detailed sketch of how such a system would work.

He wants to throw away the concept of patriotism without any clear sense of how to move forward. No,thanks.

[PatrickforO]

18. I'm thinking that if we don't begin thinking and acting this way,

our species won't survive another century. Climate change will either be the cause of our downfall - self-inflicted by greed, and perpetuated by a propagandized, ignorant electorate, or will be the cause of our growing up as a species.

Anyway, when we look back and reflect on the genocide we committed on the Native American Tribes, and how we transported criminals here for seven years of slavery (indentured servitude), and how we brought hundreds of thousands of human beings over here from Africa to be slaves, it is hard to embrace the American exceptionalism the media and the politicians seem to.

Then, we look at Jim Crow and the horrors of the South, LBJ sending 500,000 troops over to Vietnam so the military freaks could try out new weapons, choppers and napalm and agent orange, Nixon committing treason by calling 'friends' in the State Department to stall the Vietnam peace talks until he could be elected, and the whole nightmare of Watergate.

And what about the crimes we perpetrated against people in South and Central America - Argentina, Chile, Nicaragua and others. Why? To preserve our 'business interests.' Always profit over people.

Let's not forget the patriarchy, misogyny and abuse toward women, either. The exploitation and objectification of our daughters and granddaughters.

But, then, when Bill Maher suggested that it was our policies in the mid-East that created the conditions for 911, he was shunned and his show taken away. That was truth, but it is our nature as a people, because of the doctrine of American exceptionalism, to be genuinely surprised and angered when anyone points out something like this.

And now we have Trump and the cancerous corporate corruption that is destroying what is left.

This is what bothers me so much, PNW Mom. That if we were called to account, if we we put on trial, I fear we would be convicted. The problem with that is that, along with most of the people in this nation, we have in good faith tried to be decent people - we went to school, got jobs, had families and participated in the society as law abiding citizens. But we would be convicted right along with dirtbags like the Koch brothers and the Mercers.

Because we got so jaded with 'realpolitik' that we were incapable of believing in what could be.

With all respect to you, this ISN'T a pipe dream. Not if enough of us decide it isn't and then act that way.

[pnwmom]

6. That's funny because I've been thinking we needed some true patriots more than ever.

The kind that would stand up to Russia and secure our elections -- not the kind who would take Russian money to enrich themselves and their campaigns.

[Garrett78]

7. And what are "true patriots?" That seems like empty rhetoric.

The concept known as patriotism crumbles under the weight of critical thought. There's no there there.

I see posts arguing for Democrats to not cede patriotism to Republicans or arguing that standing for an anthem is "the right thing to do." These posters have fallen prey to propaganda and are not thinking critically.

[pnwmom]

8. It's not. A true patriot in Congress would vote to impeach and convict a criminal President

even if that criminal President was in his own party.

Simply put, a true patriot puts the interest of the country over the interests of his party.

[Garrett78]

9. Trump should be removed from office and face criminal charges.

For ethical, legal, justice-oriented reasons. Not because of this thing called patriotism. There's no inherent veracity to the concept known as patriotism. Again, read Jensen's chapter on the subject. There's simply no there there. We are programmed from a young age to believe otherwise without engaging in critical thought about the matter.

[pnwmom]

10. That's Jensen's opinion, and yours. But it is possible to engage in critical thought

and disagree with your conclusion.

Unlike you, I have concluded there is value in the concept of patriotism. It moves some people to act for the greater good.

[Demsrule86]

12. I agree with you pnwmom. I was born in a Navy Hospital (Great Lake) both

my parents served. My brother and sister were Marines. My niece and two nephews currently serve. I am a patriot and not ashamed to say it. Oh and a patriot can take a knee! We may not be perfect, but we can do better. The idea that we would allow the GOP to be the 'patriotic' party is ridiculous and politically suicidal.

[Garrett78]

20. Have you actually read the chapter from the OP?

[pnwmom]

28. Yes, and the bottom line is this:

My goal here is not a detailed sketch of how such a system would work.

It doesn't make sense to me to scrap the idea of patriotism without a very clear understanding of how the system he envisions replacing it would work.

[Garrett78]

31. Patriotism isn't a system.

So, there's no patriotism replacement called for.

[pnwmom]

34. He calls for scrapping patriotism. Unless he can explain how his idea would actually function,

and he doesn't, then he's just dreaming and it's too early to scrap the idea of patriotism.

Not when we have the Russians and the Chinese breathing down our throats.

[saidsimplesimon]

26. I agree with you, pnwmom.

I try not to confuse rumpian versions of alt-right nationalism and bigotry with how I define the concept of patriotism.

[Demsrule86]

13. That would be your opinion. I would say that Jenson has not thought 'critically' in that he doesn't

consider reality. People want to love their country and belong...and a party that stands against patriotism will lose multiple elections. There is both good and bad in this country...patriotism is not a bad thing in of itself...it can be perverted into something else of course as was done by the Nazis. However, like many who write in an ivory tower. (and I love ivory towers), this concepts lacks real world perspective. It is not patriotism that has damaged our country which in of itself is not a bad thing, it is Republicans and Trumpers who have twisted it into a defense for their terrible policies. And if we followed Jenson's ideas completely as individuals and as a party, we would destroy this country by handing it over to Republicans and Trumpers.

[Garrett78]

19. Have you actually read the chapter from the OP?

[BannonsLiver]

23. Why read it?

Uninformed hot takes are so much more fun.

[Garrett78]

25. Something else for folks to read:

A quote from Arundhati Roy:

"Flags are bits of colored cloth that governments use first to shrink-wrap people’s brains and then as ceremonial shrouds to bury the dead. When independent-thinking people (and here I do not include the corporate media) begin to rally under flags, when writers, painters, musicians, film makers suspend their judgment and blindly yoke their art to the service of the “Nation,” it’s time for all of us to sit up and worry."

[Demsrule86]

30. Yes I did. And I completely disagree with it...I see how he reached his conclusions...but I simply

think he is wrong. And any modern party that endorses such a view will never win an election again.

[Garrett78]

32. Care to explain where he's wrong?

Please address specific aspects of his deconstruction.

[PatrickforO]

21. Based on my post above, and that the concept of patriotism fails the test of critical thought

again and again, I'm thinking that if you mean by 'patriotism' the protecting of everyday people against a hostile power hacking our elections or taking over our power grid, and protecting us against the profit mongering of Wall Street and the predatory capitalists, then I'll go with that.

We can call it 'patriotism' if you want, but I prefer the terms 'morality,' or even 'common decency.'

[Garrett78]

24. Exactly. Nobody is saying to disregard ethics, equity, justice, compassion, etc.

But patriotism rings hollow when you break it down.

[sl8]

14. Good read, thanks for posting. n/t

[ck4829]

15. K&R. Our own immune systems have the right idea...

When cells are infected with viruses, the cytotoxic T cell doesn't accept the infection, it doesn't go "oh well", it destroys the infected cell.

Things like patriotism and "respect for the oval office" have been infected by alt/far right ideology, white supremacy, Trumpism, and Putinism.

Maybe reformed institutions can take their place... but I'm not going to accept entrenched paranoia and cargo cult politics anymore. I'm not going to say "oh well" anymore. If the choice is between my family, my life, my philosophy vs patriotism and "respect for the oval office", then sorry, the latter has got to go.

[treestar]

17. It is fine, it is just confused with nationalism

or is cheap patriotism of deplorables, like we are the number one military strength and therefore the greatest - no appreciation of what is good about our system of government, constitution, etc.

[Garrett78]

22. There's nothing about that "system of government" that is inherent or exclusive to...

...this particular land mass and its arbitrary border. Concern for all life on this planet, as well as values such as compassion and equity, is what matters.

[treestar]

27. There is though

The First Amendment.

Even the UK bans books. Once in the 80s they banned a book about the MI5 or whatever their spy agency is. Australia went along with that. My Aussie friend was in the states and the first thing she wanted to so was buy that book!

The potential is there for other countries to clamp down on the rights of minorities. Look at Europe and how they can, if they want to, crack down on immigrants, and how relatively bad they are at assimilating new groups. They ban certain speech, granted it is the "right" speech to progressives, but it's still not good and gives the government an feel for doing that.

[Garrett78]

33. The principle of free speech, for instance, is not inherent to a nation-state.

[muriel_volestrangler]

36. But that doesn't mean you can't see the USA as practising it better than most

I think Jensen's mistake is to think that if something can't be said to be purely from one's own country (the USA, in his case), then one can't claim it's worth upholding the country for it:

Democratic ideals: When challenged on these other questionable definitions of the object of love
or loyalty, most people eventually land on the seemingly safe assertion that patriotism in the
United States is an expression of commitment to a set of basic democratic ideals, which typically
include liberty, justice, and (sometimes) equality. But problems arise here as well.
First, what makes these values distinctly American? Are not various people around the world
committed to these values and to working to make them real in a variety of ways? Given that
these values were not invented in the United States and are not distinct to the United States
today, how can one claim them as the basis for patriotism? If these values predate the formation
of the United States and are present around the world, are they not human ideals rather than
American?
...
The next move in the attempt to redeem patriotism is to claim that while these values are not the
sole property of Americans, it is in the United States that they have been realized to their fullest
extent. This is merely the hubris of the powerful. As discussed earlier, on some criteria -- such as
legal protection for freedom of speech -- the United States ranks at or near the top. But the
commercial media system, which dominates in the United States, also systematically shuts out
radical views and narrows the political spectrum, impoverishing real democratic dialogue. It is
folly to think any nation could claim to be the primary repository of any single democratic value,
let alone the ideals of democracy.

But you don't have to claim it's the primary repository to say that patriotism is still worth something. It's not "be the best, or it means nothing". And being the most powerful doesn't mean all other claims are invalid, so it's not "merely the hubris of the powerful". To conclude from this that "there is no way to rescue patriotism or distinguish it from nationalism, which most everyone rejects as crude and jingoistic" is just a rush to judgement.

There's also the practical aspects. However much you are in solidarity with people in other countries, if you are in a democracy then it's your country that you can help direct, while the others quite possibly can't direct theirs - and neither can you, except through your country's foreign policy. So it's your country you need to get acting well, and that means joining with your fellow citizens to make your country better, in the world. And that's a form of patriotism.

[sunRISEnow]

35. We did this in the early 2000's when bush went over to the middle east.

[Initech]

37. Convincing one party that the other side is less patriotic is the definition of evil.