"Straight White Male: The Lowest Difficulty Setting There Is"

[EffieBlack]

I've been thinking of a way to explain to straight white men how life works for them, without invoking the dreaded word "privilege," to which they react like vampires being fed a garlic tart at high noon. It's not that the word "privilege" is incorrect, it's that it's not their word. When confronted with "privilege," they fiddle with the word itself, and haul out the dictionaries and find every possible way to talk about the word but not any of the things the word signifies.[emphasis Effie's because this sentence is so dead on]

So, the challenge: how to get across the ideas bound up in the word "privilege," in a way that your average straight white man will get, without freaking out about it?
...
Okay: In the role playing game known as The Real World, "Straight White Male" is the lowest difficulty setting there is.

This means that the default behaviors for almost all the non-player characters in the game are easier on you than they would be otherwise. The default barriers for completions of quests are lower. Your leveling-up thresholds come more quickly. You automatically gain entry to some parts of the map that others have to work for. The game is easier to play, automatically, and when you need help, by default it's easier to get.
...
As the game progresses, your goal is to gain points, apportion them wisely, and level up. If you start with fewer points and fewer of them in critical stat categories, or choose poorly regarding the skills you decide to level up on, then the game will still be difficult for you. But because you're playing on the "Straight White Male" setting, gaining points and leveling up will still by default be easier, all other things being equal, than for another player using a higher difficulty setting.

https://kotaku.com/5910857/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/amp?__twitter_impression=true

[leftstreet]

1. Straight white males already know this

They just don't want to LOSE those advantages, and they've been trained to believe if someone else gains them, they'll lose theirs

[pnwmom]

151. I don't think they all understand it -- even some on this site.

Even some writing in response to this OP.

They must be afraid that acknowledging the leg up they had de-legitimizes whatever they have accomplished.

[samnsara]

2. before trump was elected and there were some D's who were

....behaving very misogynistic... I told my hubby that he never has to worry about these types of verbal attacks because he, as a white American male, 'is at the top of the food chain'. He just looked at me and said he had never thought of that.

[PatSeg]

33. You know

As a white woman with many skills and diverse experience, I saw opportunities open up almost effortlessly for son when he was in his early twenties. I frequently saw this with many young men over the years. It wasn't just race, it was gender as well.

I've seen many white men struggle over their lives, but they usually had advantages that they often weren't aware of. Basically, they DID have a head start in the game.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

90. Yup, it's like the old analogy where they start on third base & think they hit a triple.

[brush]

129. Exactly. Thank Ann Richards for that succinct definition of privilege.

[PatSeg]

140. She was a real gem

The world could use more like her.

[PatSeg]

138. Then brag about how

"No one helped me. I did it all on my own." I have seen white men struggle and suffer. I would not deny their hardships and pain, but throughout it all, they still had more opportunities and chances than most minorities or women.

[betsuni]

3. K&R

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

4. I've always thought of privilege as defining shit you don't have to worry about.

If you're white you don't have to worry about getting shot by the cops as the result of an ordinary traffic stop. If you're male you don't have to worry about what might happen to you if you walk through a parking ramp late at night. If you're straight you don't have to worry about getting beaten up because you were seen kissing your significant other. If you're Christian you don't have to worry about finding swastikas spray-painted on your garage door or your house of worship. If you're a straight white Christian male you don't have to worry about any of that shit.

[Iggo]

19. Exactly.

White People's stories are about what didn't happen to them. (Mine included.)

[tonyt53]

32. Sort of like those that complain about "political correctness".

Those guys have never been and never will bear the brunt of hurtful words. They have no idea.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

100. Immune? No. But is this shit pervasive enough with respect to people

who aren't straight white men that they have to worry about it? Hell, yes. White people are sometimes abused by the police; right in my neighborhood a white woman was shot and killed by a trigger-happy cop when she went out to the alley to alert them to a possible assault. A video was posted just a short time ago showing a cop punching a young white woman who had been reported for underage drinking. Sometimes men (more likely boys) are sexually assaulted. The point is, that as a white person I don't worry about being shot by the cops and I don't feel I have to alter my behavior for fear of the police. When I was pulled over for running a stop sign I never even considered the possibility of anything worse than a ticket. As it happened, I was warned to be more careful and wished a nice day. On the other hand, as a woman I have to be very careful about where I go and what I do, especially in unfamiliar places or at night, because the possibility of assault is real. And, like probably every woman with a pulse I have been sexually harassed at work. Sometimes men are also assaulted or sexually importuned, but I doubt many men feel the need to adjust their behavior to avoid it or feel fearful in some situations because of the possibility of it. Because I'm straight nobody has ever given me a hard time about dating or marrying a man, but if my chosen partner had been a woman it would have been a different story altogether.

The issue is not whether some bad thing could happen to anybody, but whether the bad thing is a constant and pervasive possibility that is a consequence of your being something other than straight, white and male - to the point where you are always aware of it and have to alter your own behavior in order to protect yourself. Not having to do that is privilege.

[Hortensis]

162. All "poor" people are "something other" who

draw hostility and are likely targets for abuse. As a poor white child of a mentally ill mother I was twice physically hurt and humiliated (not seriously but genuinely and deliberately) by abusive cops twice and treated with a callousness that as an adult I consider passively abusive other times.

I don't see my relatively better position in society now as "privileged," though, but rather that I was once part of a group specifically denied the privilege that is all the birthright of all citizens. That a perception of being white is a relative protection from police abuse is a genuine advantage, but it does not rise to privilege. Some few may be so protected by wealth or connections as to be effectively privileged, but I never believe it couldn't happen to me and mine because I know better. Like most black mothers, I repeatedly anxiously instructed my teens on the very serious dangers of triggering bad cops and will again when our grandchildren are that age.

It is possible to read the history of this country as one long struggle to extend the liberties established in our Constitution to everyone in America. ~ Molly Ivins

[brush]

131. Great post. No way to misunderstand any of that.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

5. K&R

[oberliner]

6. Much better than the "ladder that can't reach the goal" image

Good post.

[EffieBlack]

9. Hey, boo - I'm SO glad that I found an illustration of "privilege" that meets your approval!

Because, it IS all about you and you ARE the expert on these things, so this makes my day.

Thanks, Boobala!

[ariadne0614]

53. Oh, EffieBlack. . .

I think you’re wonderful!

[LSFL]

143. Jesus Christ Effie!

You should warn a guy. I just blew half a beer from my nose.

[JustAnotherGen]

202. You two are so cute

I imagine you skipping through a field of daisies chasing butterflies. It's beautiful Effie! Brava!

[NNadir]

7. We're horrible people, straight white males.

We have no saving graces whatsoever, and we all rely on our privilege to completely decimate the planet.

We have no redeeming qualities whatsoever, are all vicious and homicidal, and probably should all be in prison for that for which we've gotten away.

The only redeeming quality we have is that we represent a big, fat, ugly target for our ethical and moral superiors, which is the entire universe of everyone with the morally redeeming privilege of not being one of us.

[EffieBlack]

8. Another tenet of white male privilege

Feeling perfectly entitled to respond to any discussion of your privilege with comments like yours.

[NNadir]

23. Personally, watching you ring up recommends, day after day for your lectures...

Last edited Mon May 28, 2018, 01:54 PM - Edit history (1)

...I'm very sorry, but I'm beginning to regard you as something of a bigot.

I was born a straight white male. I can't change the color of my skin, nor my sexuality. This is exactly the equivalent of anyone who is born a gay Chinese woman, for just one example.

I definitely detect a note of moral superiority in your continuous rhetoric, whether you acknowledge it or not.

Your criticisms are specious and supercilious since you defend yourself against any criticism by making remarks such as this one.

Many years ago, I found myself emotionally engaged with a bisexual woman, a beautiful and intelligent woman, who happened to be Jewish. She lived among gay women who used to say horrible things about men, but frankly, I loved her for who she was and not for who her associates were. However, I found myself reading - for what must have been defensive purposes on reflection - gay female literature, notably the writings of Rita Mae Brown.

In "Plain Brown Rapper" - one of her books which still happens to be on my shelves, she remarked that it took her a long time to realize that all men were not enemies, and not all women were good people.

You seem not to have read this book or any others making a similar point.

I'm sorry you express so much hatred for me without knowing a damned thing about who I am, but this is your problem, not mine.

You have a modicum of intelligence, which is clear from your writings, which I was willing to give a try. But frankly, I'm not so sure you're as free of racism as you seem to think you are.

I'm sorry I'm a straight white male, and I'm so damned "privileged." I feel like my life has been something of a struggle, much like that of most human beings, seeking decency and honesty and human rights.

I realize that we live in a racist society, and I always remark to my family while driving somewhere when I notice someone being pulled over for "driving while black" or for "driving while hispanic" etc.

My wife and I marched for Rodney King, and many similar causes, we deplore the ratio of races in prisons, and while this doesn't make either of us Andrew Goodman, we are struggling continuously for human rights and human decency, including for the billions of people who we are aware of whom make less than $1.25/day while people luxuriate at their computer screens making noble pronouncements about their special insight to the world. You may rail against how some of us are smug because we were born - and yes I was born this way and can do nothing about it - with gender, skin color and sexuality that has inappropriately given us privilege, but then again, some of were not. My father, for instance, had an eighth grade education, had a father who beat the shit out of him and his mother in alcoholic rages, had his pension buried with Jimmy Hoffa, and worked menial jobs until the time cancer consumed him.

But of course, he was privileged compared to you.

But sorry, you are NOT decidedly less racist than I am, nor are you without privilege. You are, after all, sitting at a computer.

I'm neither intellectually or morally impressed. If you consider that a racist response - and I'm sure you do - there's not a damned thing I can do about it. My opinion is that you have an entirely inflexible mind, and that, my friend, is sad.

Race may be an important factor in this world, but it is not the only factor in the world. I feel for you that you cannot see anything beyond the prism of race, and I'm sure you regard that as racist as well, but again, there's nothing I can do about that.

[ismnotwasm]

25. And BINGO

Time to shuffle the cards

[Tarc]

64. I wish individual posts could be upvoted

The truth in the Bingo card is more than most can bear.

[mcar]

72. I was preparing a reply to that poster

But now I don't need to because yours is perfect!

[Gothmog]

220. Great bingo card

[johnp3907]

27. Wow, that's some brilliant satire!

You really nailed the totally clueless “I’m not racist, you’re racist” type of racism! Bravo!




Oh, wait...... You’re serious?

[SunSeeker]

40. LOL

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

39. I don't think you got the point of the OP. Having the privileges of a straight white male

does not mean you are a racist, nor were you (or any straight white males) accused of that. The point is that straight white males start out with certain advantages because they are straight, white and male. Some do have tough lives for other reasons - you offer the examples of alcoholism and abuse. These are legitimate difficulties that are encountered by many people, of all races, genders, sexual orientations and religions. However, there are also some significant and pervasive difficulties and obstacles that will never be a problem for you - for example, as I've mentioned elsewhere in this thread, the fact that no matter how tough your life has been or how hard you've worked to achieve whatever you have, the chance that you will be murdered by a police officer during a routine traffic stop is pretty close to zero. In case you haven't noticed, black men are being harassed, arrested, beaten, even killed by police for actions that wouldn't even raise an eyebrow if a white person did it. It happens almost daily. In case you haven't noticed, the sexual abuse and assault of women is and has been epidemic. I don't know a single woman who hasn't been the victim of some invasive and unwanted sexual behavior, but that's something else you are unlikely to encounter in your everyday life. In case you haven't noticed, gay and transgender people are harassed, even beaten up, just on account of who they are, and until recently have not been even allowed to marry. But since you're straight, nobody has ever threatened you, harmed you or deprived you of some ordinary right most people take for granted just because of whom you love.

The reason privilege is being discussed here is not to accuse anyone of racism, because just possessing privilege does not mean that you, personally, are a racist. However, not even recognizing the existence of the privilege that comes with being a straight white male allows racism to keep flourishing. Don't be so damn defensive; do something useful with that privilege.

[ariadne0614]

56. I detect an adult in the room. n/t

[thucythucy]

93. Wow. That was an excellent read.

Combined with the OP this is the most succinct and precise explanation of privilege I've seen to date.

Thanks to you both.

[pazzyanne]

49. Thank you for providing a perfect example of what EffieBlack was pointing out.

[gollygee]

52. What the heck is going on with this reply?

What????

I'm particularly curious about this part: "I'm sorry you express so much hatred for me without knowing a damned thing about who I am, but this is your problem, not mine."

Where has EffieBlack expressed hatred for you?

[Hortensis]

121. I suspect the poster believes black and white people

are truly equal when it comes capacity for all good behaviors and all bad behaviors, including racism, and that that may be the genesis of this different viewpoint.

One could argue that this would be a very un-racist attitude. You know, that we really are all members of just one human race and the same under the skin and thus that all posts on this subject should be examined for racism and lack of it? One standard for all, no special privileges?

While I'm at it, though, please let's remember that a third of all white men voted Democratic in 2016. I at least regret the incredibly condescending insults they're being expected to swallow quietly, any attempt at self defense taken as "proof" of their own racism. I hope most are just staying away from these. Certainly not everyone's into the delights of self flagellation, or the racist delusion of a racism-free race for that matter.

[gollygee]

132. "Color blindness" is a kind of racism

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/colorblind/201112/colorblind-ideology-is-form-racism

[EffieBlack]

144. Indeed

"I don't see color" is Wypopian for "I don't see you."

[Hortensis]

161. This is called a straw man argument.

If that was accidental, please note that what I said is that people of all colors can be significantly biased, or not. Bias, religious bigotry, racism, whatever form of bias is being discussed at the moment -- that irrational fear and hostility toward what is seen as "different" -- is in all of us to various degrees but is strongest in conservatives.

Roughly half of all humanity, including of all POC, are conservative by personality, half of those strongly to extremely, most of those latter social conservatives. Social conservatives are the world's biggest troublemakers because of their tendency to strong biases and to acting them out. They love to act their hostility out and typically grab every opportunity they think they can get away with it. See a hate glare from any color to any color, or someone behaving angrily toward a stranger for speaking a different language or wearing different clothes, you can be pretty sure that's a social conservative. Social conservatives come in all colors, religions, geographic backgrounds, ethnicities. Those are the people we all need to stand united against because they're hurtful and dangerous.

But for right here on DU, any biased statements against people on the basis of anything, including race, should be recognized for what they are, and no one, regardless of skin color, should be granted special privilege for abusing others. Especially here on DU, for goodness' sake. The great diversity of our party means we have Democrats of all political personality types, but that doesn't mean we should condone Democrat-on-Democrat abuse from anyone.

Or be eagerly useful idiots for enemies trying to energize racial hostility to divide our party.

When someone claims to be unfairly stigmatized, we should at least respect that person's right to speak up, listen to develop our own understanding further, and certainly not tell a person objecting to being stigmatized as racist that he or she is. If an apology is not felt appropriate, just move on.

Btw, I've explained to Effie before my feeling that that her explanations of how POC like her feel and how she thinks POC see and experience white people are valid and valuable (presuming they do reflect the feelings of many POC), but that telling white people how they all feel are not and that these broad negative generalizations about what white people think by definition have to be wrong in too many cases to count and should be carefully avoided.. That's what's causing most protests and also a big part of what has caused many to avoid these threads.

[gollygee]

179. Here's what you posted

"One could argue that this would be a very un-racist attitude. You know, that we really are all members of just one human race and the same under the skin and thus that all posts on this subject should be examined for racism and lack of it? One standard for all, no special privileges? "

That is color-blindness, which is a form of racism.

[RobinA]

361. Bringing Up These Points

is hopeless in the current atmosphere. It's like having a discussion with conspiracy theorists. Everything one says is proof that there is a conspiracy/of ones racist thoughts.

[Hortensis]

362. :) Yes. But people have to speak up "for the record"

now and then. There'll be a lot less of this after November 6.

[RobinA]

371. Yes, You Are Probably

right. Being beat over the head constantly is maddening, though, because it is driving people away.

[ehrnst]

71. Somebody feeling fragile?

[bitterross]

89. It is time to look up the definition of anecdotal vs. default

The post did not in anyway say that NO straight, white men suffer and NO straight, white men have difficult lives.

It pointed out the obvious. That the people who happen to be in charge of everything are usually the ones for whom life is the easiest.

Your story is not the "default" setting story. Don't try to compare and lessen the lesson because of your individual circumstances when the overwhelming majority has a completely different story.

Don't take it personally when it clearly doesn't apply to you. You are not the "default."

[Kind of Blue]

92. Classic example of White Fragility Rules of Engagement 10 and 11

10. You must focus on my intentions, which cancel out the impact of my behavior that is obvious in your reply of all the good intentions, thank you, that you've achieved and continue to achieve. But the behavior in your response is I suspect a result of Rule 3: There must be trust between us. You must trust that I am in no way racist before you can give me feedback on my racism. Again, after all of the good things you've done to garner trust that you actually fight racism, Effieblack, I take it, seems to discount your good works as meaningful. Therefore you do not trust that she points racism out because maybe she should be focused on the good white Christian males do, and therefore she is in no way capable of giving feedback on white male racism. That makes sense to me in reading Rule 1. Do not give me feedback on my racism under any circumstances. "My racism" to me means the white male category in general.

11. To suggest my behavior had a racist impact is to have misunderstood me. You will need to allow me to explain until you can acknowledge that it was your misunderstanding. This I think is a result of Rule 9 Giving me feedback on my racial privilege invalidates the form of oppression that I experience (i.e. classism, sexism, heterosexism). We will then need to focus on how you oppressed me, of course, being born white, straight, heterosexual, Christian, and your dad's oppression as a white man.

[WestIndianArchie]

117. hahaha

Your post is absurd.

[RandomAccess]

120. Two thoughts --

1. So Effie gets mansplained and whitesplained all at the same time, thus saving space, time, energy and other stuff.

2. When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

ETA: I lied. THREE thoughts:

3. Failure to recognize privilege IS an abuse of privilege.

[brush]

134. Get real. If you're "woke" and understand how your status can be...

leveraged to help others not born with the advantage of being the default of our society, don't go off on Effie.

She brings a needed perspective to those here who live in a privileged world but who never see the other side that those who are less advantaged do.

You calling her a bigot is the most ridiculous think I read on this board. I suspect you know better so stop with the defensiveness, her posts are not directed to people who go out of their way to use their position/status to help others.

[Eko]

139. Why would this be insterted in there?

"Personally, watching you ring up recommends, day after day for your lectures..."
I wonder why.

[stonecutter357]

158. lol

[Tipperary]

184. I am not a male.

But your post is spot on. I suspect the usual group will soon be here to pile on.

[LanternWaste]

229. I too pretend that expressing holding a different opinion is "piling on"

I too pretend that expressing holding a different opinion is "piling on." We can much better rationalize our biases as righteous by doing so...

[Catherine Vincent]

189. Interesting

You were triggered by the OP but had no reason to be.

Not piling on...just a comment.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

10. That's not what the OP said or even implied.

Straight white males are not evil on account of those qualities. The point is that being a straight white male means there are certain difficulties that you are not likely to have to encounter in your life. You aren't likely to get shot by a cop who pulls you over for a burned-out tail light. You aren't likely to be raped in a dark parking garage or paid less for the same job a man does. You aren't going to be hassled or deprived of certain rights on account of the gender of your partner. Your life will be just that much less fraught with obstacles or dangers than the life of someone who isn't a straight white male. It doesn't mean straight white men are bad. But sometimes they're clueless.

[mnhtnbb]

78. It doesn't mean straight white men are bad. But sometimes they're clueless.

Bingo.

Straight white older woman here, from the era when I couldn't get a credit card in my name--even though I was working--without my husband's credit information being submitted, too.

Lived with sexual harassment at work, all the time.

Was paid less than my male counterparts for the same job in a predominantly male field.

I've started watching the series, Mad Men, on Netflix. You want to talk about white male privilege--especially in regard to gender inequality and sexual harassment of women--ooh, boy. And there's not been one person of color in any of the story lines so far.

This is the atmosphere and culture that the orange one means when he says MAGA: 1950's-1960's white male dominated USA.

[ismnotwasm]

11. No, but I would think SWM's would have the sense and compassion

To see where the practice of white and male and straight supremacy has caused irreparable harm, and partipate in important discussions about race without sarcasm and defensiveness

[ariadne0614]

59. Yes, and a touch of humility would help.

By now one would think that any intellectually honest SWM would look around at the state of the nation, realize that (collectively) they are not inherently superior to all other forms of humanity, and welcome some new perspectives into the decision-making process. The American Taliban is dead set on making sure that never happens. Let’s not make it easy for them.

[MineralMan]

15. Ooooh! Touched a nerve, did that?

Looks like you'll need a little more Novocaine, I guess...

[mcar]

17. Wow!

Just wow.

[johnp3907]

18. Horrible at internet comments at least.

[KG]

48. I LOL'd

[ariadne0614]

55. Do I detect a drama queen with a martyr complex? n/t

[paleotn]

66. Oh, dear god man

I'm a straight white male. Southern no less. Anglo. Born into the upper middle class. So WASP it's painful. So take it from me, you are way off base. No, were not all vicious, homicidal maniacs, looking for the next genocide. The poster and the writer at the link never stated that in any way, shape or form. We have tons of redeeming qualities....most of us anyway. But that's not the damn point. The point is, WE have an easier row to hoe in this society and that needs to change. There is simply no debating that. Good god man, the stories I can relate from my own experience of being given differential treatment simply because of who I am can fill volumes.

No one is being targeted. No one is making themselves out to be ethically and morally superior...well, other than some of us for the last 500 years on this continent. They are simply pointing out a problem in how our society is structured. And as we all know, the first step to solving a problem is acknowledging it's existence. Trust me, fellow white straight male, it DOES exist. When I see others being abused and even killed by the same police that have cut me more than a little slack since my teenage years, YES we have a problem.

So I tell you what. Instead of feeling oppressed, lets join with those pointing out the problem so that we may all fix it.

[The Polack MSgt]

73. All the feels bro. All of 'em. nt

[treestar]

88. No no

There are just some things you may take for granted that women or minorities can’t generally. It is not aimed at you as an individual , but at a society.

[guillaumeb]

97. Which post are you responding to?

I saw nothing like that here, only an acknowledgment of the obvious.

[True Dough]

128. NNadir, I'm glad you're among us

and I hope you internalize the better thought-out responses in this thread (a few are just personal jabs). There are a lot of points to ponder here.

Bottom line: I hope you can move beyond the feeling of being attacked and see that we can rise above the fray by extending a hand and lending a reinforcing voice. No need to feel threatened because, if you let it, your character can demonstrate that there's more to be gained than lost as we enhance the rights and protections of all people.

[ariadne0614]

156. I am humbled and chastened by your post,

and hereby withdraw my earlier snarky personal jab. Sometimes I just get so fed up.

[True Dough]

157. Good on you, ariadne

But before anyone accuses me of being holier than thou, I must admit that I have made my share of snarky posts and taken personal jabs at others before.

Shrug it off and carry on.

Peace.

[ariadne0614]

173. Thanks, True Dough,

I’ll take your advice. https://www.facebook.com/paulstarr62/videos/1141496039325323/

[ehrnst]

319. Somebody needs a nap....

White fragility is exhausting, isn't it?

[Cartoonist]

12. I've learned to live with my privilege

I discovered early on that my ability to get a job was due to my birth, not necessarily what I knew or what I could do.

I decided not to fight it by turning jobs down. I also enjoy the service I get at restaurants and department stores.

I've been stopped by cops, but often they will let me go on my way after a short lecture. The one time I got my ass in real trouble, the all white jury let me go.

Privilege. I never leave home without it. I just wish I could share.

[Raysawesome34]

21. Your last sentence is how I feel.

Thanks.

[BumRushDaShow]

47. "Privilege. I never leave home without it. I just wish I could share. "

You can, by stepping up to the plate. I.e., if you "see something, say something".

See here - https://kywnewsradio.radio.com/articles/flashpoint-guilty-until-proven-innocent-using-privilege-push-progress-and-philly-high

The above links to a podcast that was just broadcast locally here in Philly over the weekend (5/26/18) that included an interview with Melissa DePino, the young lady who tweeted out the video of the Starbucks arrest. Her interview starts at ~ the 20:24 time mark (the podcast player is at the bottom of the page). She calls it "using privilege to push for progress".

Melissa and a new black friend Michelle Saahene, who have started a project called "From Privilege to Progress".



https://twitter.com/privtoprog

[thucythucy]

108. Thanks for this.

Really interesting article at the link.

[BumRushDaShow]

126. I agree! The Philly Inquirer article was pretty eye-opening for me too to say the least

And she is right on point regarding what amounts to (my words) "segregation" of social media... Although it would more accurately be considered "separation" since people obviously have a choice as to which types of media to use and who to follow on that media.

I would say that this is part of the reason behind what Effie has been trying to do on DU, as much as it seems to frustrate a number of DUers. It is "bridging the gap" of communications (on a different level - i.e., more "informal" with the discussion forum being a part of "social media" ) and get some conversations going, exactly like these 2 ladies here in Philly are trying to do. And this effort will actually also be helpful for Michelle because being the child of immigrants who came here to the U.S. from a country where nearly everyone "looks like them" (versus descending from enslaved people who were brought here, where people who "look like them" are in the minority), she can gain a better understanding of those of us whose families have been here under this system for generations.

[Skidmore]

13. Saw a FB comment this morning on a friend's page.

I have found that right wing straight men are the most fragile of all. Having grown up with no one questioning them they find anything that is not privilege to be an attack.

I would have added white to the description since most RWers are white. And fragile.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

14. "When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like discrimination."

[Croney]

36. I had that quote as my Facebook cover photo for a long time.

[maddiemom]

29. Much like many American "Christians."

(And NO, I don't mean all). They tend to equate those with different beliefs to be "against" them. Those people truly just don't understand the First Amendment to the Constitution and somehow got the idea that it means only "Christians," not that those who have different beliefs are not threatening them if they practice those beliefs. Increasingly fewer and fewer straight white men are homophobic, or racist. The assholes will always be out there, unfortunately. I doubt the others deserve being lumped in with them. Isn't that blanket tolerance supposed to include anyone?

[MineralMan]

16. It's not necessarily a zero-sum game, though.

The SWMs don't necessarily lose if they're on an equal playing field, as long as they keep up. They just think they'll lose. Silly people!

[MontanaMama]

20. "Lowest difficulty setting."

Perfectly said and explained. I’m going to ask my 13 year old son to read this OP. We often talk about using our powers for good and how fortunate he is to have been born who and how he is. Thank you for this thread.

[marylandblue]

22. I think the language of rights makes more sense

Everyone has the right to be treated with equal respect. We all understand that as a basic American value. But rich people automatically get more respect than poor people, men more women and whites more than blacks. Provide examples. Start with rich more than poor, such as getting a better lawyer if you are arrested. Most of us are on the short end of that one. Then move on to examples where a poor white man gets treated better than a black man, such as less likely to be arrested in the first place.

[HopeAgain]

24. Why we are scared of the "privilege" word...

On this site, I think it is about guilt. As democrats, we want to believe we aren't part of the systemic racism that is America. We think we vote in the interests of minorities and avoid overt racism, so we should be entitled to feel good about ourselves. But the guilt is still there, because we know we do things like:

-move into a newly gentrified area without regard to who was displaced;
-move when our kids get to school age so that they can go to an "A" rated school rather than the one with a higher minority population;
-send our kids to private school rather than support public education at all;
-tell people to be careful when they drive downtown because the could easily end up in [Overtown, Liberty City - name your inner city here] without thinking that good folks have to LIVE there.
-look twice when the work truck driving by has minorities in it.
-fight against any zoning that might bring down OUR property values, including zoning for things like shelters and rehabs.
-and on and on...

White people have to own that guilt or things will never get better.

[Loki Liesmith]

28. God save us from stupid analogies to video games

A cursory understanding of statistics makes bad analogies unnecessary.

[thucythucy]

111. Statistically speaking,

about how many people do you suppose have "a cursory understanding of statistics?"

[LanternWaste]

230. May he also save us from irrelevant and petulant responses designed for self-aggrandizement

May he also save us from irrelevant and petulant responses designed for self-aggrandizement, as well...

[askyagerz]

30. And you wont be happy until

We are all dead...

[mindfulNJ]

42. looking at the race and gender

of mass shooters lately I think it's the other way around.

[askyagerz]

163. Oh geez ya caught us!

We all just a bunch of white crazed killers lol! Do you really want to start adding up the body counts from the various races in America? Try again...

[mindfulNJ]

178. uh huh.

This from someone who just accused the OP of wanting to kill him.

[askyagerz]

210. No just that we were all dead, gone and out of the way

Not that she wanted to line us up and shoot us lol. Never said anything about a gun...

[LanternWaste]

231. I imagine you even believe your unsupported allegations.

I imagine you even believe your unsupported allegations.

[askyagerz]

236. Yeah I do. I'm following my gut on this one after reading

Many many posts. The fact that on almost every one of these white people posts there is a fellow du'er or two that say hey that makes us uncomfortable and is then immediately mobbed because they had the oddasity to speak up about "their hurt wittle feelings" tells me that effie probably enjoys the responses since she just keeps ramping it up.
She could care less she might be hurting others feelings. In fact she or someone else she has riled up is always sure to point it out. Awww poor white so and so... Or "White power" oh that just accidentally slipped out heehee (see above for example). Shes knows just what buttons to push and pushes them repeatedly because she knows someone is going to speak up and she will scream SEE.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

45. Christ, get a hold of yourself.

[askyagerz]

54. Everyday I get to see how all white males are horrible people

We get it. Water is wet and the sky is blue and apparently all white men are assholes.
I'm pretty sure the majority of white men here are extremely sympathetic to all issues of gender equality and minority rights so what is the point of doing this here?
I just cant figure out what effieblack wants from us? Every day! Should all the DU white men get on our knees and apologize for shit weve never done and on fact likely have fought against? Paint the house? Walk the dog? What will prove our worthiness?
This is supposed to be a friendly forum. If a friend says hey that stings a little and explains why, youre not supposed to start screaming and feigning outrage that they have no right to be upset because your life is worse then theirs so shut up and keep taking it...
No you say oh my bad. As far as I'm concerend generlizing anyone for any reason is bad juju. Its a slippery slope so we should all just stay away from the edge and just focus on pinpointing exactly who the real enemies are. Ideology is the problem not 100% of white men

[gollygee]

57. Where does this say all white men are assholes?

I don't see that anywhere?

I see it saying that being a white man in our society makes life easier. Life being easier does not equal being an asshole.

[askyagerz]

61. Yeah? Try growing up where I grew up lol

Its not just this paticular post. Its reading the 3 a day from effie that you really start to see the motive. Most of them use generlations that have no other purpose other then to demonize white people. Has anyone ever stopped to ask what the point of all those post are exactly since we are all for minority rights here? Effie is a one trick pony on a mission. Its all about pushing the envolope and causing discourse and y'all just keep rec'ing it

[gollygee]

62. I don't think we all have the same idea about what "minority rights" entail

The point is to fight racism. And Effie is an intelligent woman who has lived with racism her whole life and has a pretty good idea of who is "for minority rights" and what exactly people mean by that.

How does fighting racism push the envelope? And what envelope is that?

[askyagerz]

68. I don't care if it is a green dog

Generlizing a purple cat. I would stop and say hey that's not right.

[gollygee]

74. I'll keep that in mind if I come across any green dogs or purple cats. nt

[Tarc]

67. Terribly sorry that one of the DUs better posters says things that make you uncomfortable

or, gasp, maybe even think a little. Truths are uncomfortable sometimes.

[askyagerz]

70. Its not making anyone think here lol

We've all come to these conclusions way before joining DU. Like I said there is an alternative motive at play here.

[Tarc]

76. There is no alternative motive. White privilege is a thing

If you cannot acknowledge that, then that is what the problem is.

[askyagerz]

83. Hey I have benifited from white privelidge.

I have told a few stories here. I have also been discriminated against for being poor. I have said I get it. But I think everyone here does

[EffieBlack]

136. Has anyone told you about the "Ignore" function

You might find it useful, considering how much I seem to upset you.

[askyagerz]

164. Kinda like saying I should go buy a gun to protect myself

From gun owners. I'm not going anywhere. As long as you keep up you relentless demonizing of any race I will be here to speak for the other side. We are all human. Kinda the whole point you seem to be missing in the great du race debate of 2018

[LanternWaste]

187. Then try speaking from a premise, supported by evidence resulting in a conclusion

" I will be here to speak for the other side..."

Then try speaking from a premise, supported by evidence resulting in a conclusion, rather than simply making unsupported allegations.

From you, in this particular thread at least, it's simply been one bumper sticker after another. You're not making any relevant or valid points, you're simply lashing out.

[askyagerz]

196. Just giving back exactly what I'm recieving

You want me to prove Effie is here to stir the shit and as soon as a white person says hey thats not quite right and gets jumped on and rolled by a few of the same offending members effie starts playing another one bites the dust her head? Geez which of the 500 posts of the last few months should I pick to male my point...

[LanternWaste]

232. And now you predicate your own behavior on what you allege others are doing.

And now you predicate your own behavior on what you allege others are doing. My nine year old, niece does the same thing. Well... did. She's ten now, and says she's too old to act like that. Your mileage obviously varies.

Your posts seem simply petulant, not righteous. Nor are you receiving anything that you did not actively look for... else your presence on this thread would be imaginary.

Possibly objective evidence would allow you the credibility you seem to find irrelevant. Merely repeating a bumper sticker over and over again does not make you appear clever or intelligent.

I get it. Rational thought can be harder than simply making emotional, somewhat hysterical allegations.

[EffieBlack]

194. Which "other side" are you speaking for? White people? White men? Which ones

Because I know - here on DU and in the real world - plenty of white folk, including white men, who understand privilege, recognize that privilege, do what they can do either avoid or share it (or at least try not to allow it to undermine those who don't have it) and don't get their shorts all in a bunch at the mention of "white privilege" or "white people." In fact, they welcome and contribute a great deal of knowledge, perspective and insight to such conversations.

Surely, you're not speaking for them, since they are perfectly capable of speaking for themselves and, thus, do they not need anyone to speak for them. And I suspect that, even if they did, you would be waaayyyy down on the list of preferred spokespersons.

So, please do tell exactly which "other side" you're speaking for.

[askyagerz]

198. Im going to tell you how I have explained the dangers of generalizing various races

To all the ignorant white people I grew up with. For example when They would say black people are thugs. I would ask is every single black person a hurt others in the world? Does every single black person harbor hate in their heart like true thug?
They would of course well no I dont think so. Then I would say well how in the hell can you sit there and be derogative to an entire race of humans?
I and others here have tried having debates on these issues with you. They are usually told some kind of snarky response about how they are being whiney white people and have no right to have feelings. The first time you ever talked to me you called me a baby like a 5th grader for having a legit opinion about a candidate then I watch for the next week as you told us not to vote for certain candidates.
I'm on to you Effie... You aren't here trying to better the democratic party. You are on a personal mission. ✌

[EffieBlack]

201. You didn't answer my question

What "other side" are you speaking for?

Not a difficult question.

[Caliman73]

204. Just cop to it Effie...he's on to you!

Can't you just find it in your icy heart to think of the oppressed White man? I mean, it is super hard to be the standard by which all social norms are evaluated. You Effie, will never understand how it is to have NO words that have the power to strip you over your human dignity. You cannot even begin to imagine how it feels in 240+ years to have every single President, save 1, and most of all of the other politicians look like you.

Just admit it Effie, some one has to defend White Dignity, White Rights, White Power...oops, that one slipped out.

[EffieBlack]

208. He's definitely on to me

or something ...

Whatever.

[askyagerz]

212. Yep there it is

So predictable. Sooooo old...

[Caliman73]

218. Yep...At least 240 years in this country alone...

It is old, and boring.

[askyagerz]

222. 240 years of DUers claiming whiney white privelidge

as soon as someone has an opinion different then theirs? Wow I must of missed the internet back in the day...

[askyagerz]

211. Any side I see getting unjustifiably demonized.

I will stand up for anyone. I already answered it youre just having difficult time digesting such a notion...

[EffieBlack]

213. LOL. "Any side I see getting unjustifiably demonized" is a dodge and you know it.

You don't give a hoot about protecting everyone who is "getting unjustifiably demonized." All you've done is whine about the "white people," "white people," "white people" that I'm supposedly demonizing. So, are you representing all white people? Or just the white people you think I'm demonizing? If it's the latter, which white people am I demonizing?

You obviously can't - or don't want to - explain yourself, which is perfectly understandable.

[askyagerz]

215. Its not a dodge

If you understood anything about the democratic party you would know exactly where I'm coming from. Sorry my answer doesnt fit your agenda

[EffieBlack]

216. Whatever

[LanternWaste]

233. You're now confusing 'reponse' and 'answer.'

You're now confusing 'reponse' and 'answer.' Is that a genuine lack of knowledge, or you do it consciously to better paint your narrative?

All answers are responses. Not all responses Are answers. You failed to answer, despite your success in responding.

[treestar]

87. You aren't required to

Take it personally. It doesn’t mean you specifically. It’s about American society in general.

I can get that it would be hard for blue collar or poor white men to swallow. But it is not them as individuals that the idea means.

No one means you specifically are bad and don’t have struggles.

[askyagerz]

165. I do take it personally after 200 posts about the same exact thing

I have done nothing but fight for minority rights as long as I can remember. And I come here and see "white people" "white people" "white people" "white people" "white people" "white people" "white people" "white people" "white people" "white people" "white people" everyday!
Yeah I get there is such a thing as white privlidge but there are also just as many "white people" who want to see equality for all.
And as soon as someone says hey this stings a little they get jumped on as whiney white men. Friends like these....

[EffieBlack]

182. I guess seeing "white people" in print is pretty unsettling if you've had the privilege of rarely

being identified by your particular racial or ethnic demographic - unlike blacks and Hispanics and Asians and other groups are consistently so described. When, as the dominant majority, you’ve had the privilege of being seen as and seeing yourselves as “people,” the term “white people” applied to you must be pretty jarring.

No wonder you’re so freaked out.

[askyagerz]

199. Black people (fill in the blank how they suck)

Yeah youre right that is unsettling...

[EffieBlack]

203. If you can point to anyplace I've said "White people (fill in the blank how they suck)" your point

might make sense. Otherwise, my point stands.

But since you know and I know that you know that I've never said any such thing, let's just cut to the chase: My point stands.

[askyagerz]

206. Its the phrase you use so proudly!

White people this and that... You definitely aren't talking about good things white people do. As soon as someone says I got the cops called on me you chime in ugh just wait for the disgusting comments. What did you expect was coming? The worse would be hey maybe you radio was actually too loud then you could pounce about no its white privelidge and the fact that they arent saying its white privelidge just proves it lol.
Maybe they were calling because it was Dre or maybe it really was because the radio was too loud. We have no idea so to present it as proof of white privelidge is dangerous. Its hyperbole and will eventually get people hurt or killed.
I just sat here and tried to make a rough estimate on how many time white people have called the cops on me throughout my life. I think I'm at around 20. They always come with their hands on their guns and asked everyone in the house for id's. Just because a minority gets the cops called on them by a white person doesn't mean it was necessarily nefarious. Yes a lot of it is racist b.s. but a lot of it is legit.
You are very divisive. I wish you would use your well thought out posts to try and bring people together more.
As an example. Look at one of the posters above. Somehow my response envoked someone talking about white shooters when we all know murder has more to do with being a young male then the color of anyones skin but they were just so ready to blame white people for something else. I always point out the ridiculousness of a scared white person just because a minority is around but your posts seem to be coming from somewhere different.

[EffieBlack]

207. In other words, you can't point to anything I've written that says what you claim

And your babbling word salads aren't fooling anyone - except maybe those on "the other side" that you're representing.

[askyagerz]

214. Bahaha the fact that I just keep getting told by lots of posters

Hey dont take it personally just proves you are generlizing white people. Oh these white people understand about white privilidge and my generalizing an entire race doesnt bother them one bit. Well I understand about white privelidge and generlizing any race bothers me and that's how the cookie crumbles.
The fact that one second you can call a fellow duer(who had never spoken to you) a baby for having a conscious about 1000s of dead women, children and soldiers and then turn around and tell us that we better not dare vote for Biden because he said he would like to box trump tells me all I need to know about where your relentless "white people" posts are coming from

[LanternWaste]

234. Or, it may simply be a more polite way of saying, "bless your little heart..."

"I just keep getting told by lots of posters profile Hey dont (sic) take it personally just proves you are generlizing (sic) white people..."

Or, it may simply be a more polite way of saying, "bless your little heart..." And I doubt "bless you little heart" ever proves anything.

[Caliman73]

217. There is no need to do that. It has been baked into the cake since before the country was founded.

Black people were considered property up until 150 years ago. They were not allowed in many states to marry White people until 1971. Special laws had to be enacted to allow Black people to vote, buy property, get jobs, etc... about 60 years ago. Those are just laws that legally allowed for White People to treat Black people like they (fill in the blank how they suck). The attitudes that White people are inherently superior to Black people are what drove those laws and which continue to pervade society today.

So... there is no need to put that out there. It is already there, in almost everyone's mind in some way. It is constantly being reinforced in subtle ways. If you aren't Black or a woman, or some other person of color, then you are like a fish in water. You don't realize you are wet because the water just is. Hell, even women and other people of color, who have experienced a portion of the level of discrimination that Black people have experienced are still like fish in water. We see it a little bit more, but it is always, all around us to the point where Black children in research chose the White dolls as the pretty doll, the "good" doll; and chose the Black doll as ugly, or naughty.

[askyagerz]

221. We are all human

My mom told me if I cant say anything nice dont say it all. I think even Dr King would be uneasy about some of the white people talk here lately. You will always catch more flies with honey. I have found one of the best ways to get people out of their bigot boxes is to show first hand the awesomeness of the very race they are afraid of. We need to be ripping holes in their boxes not putting up more cardboard. Its not right that the burden is on the oppressed but its one of the best solutions. We all need to love one another...

[Caliman73]

224. Yes we are all human. Some humans are more human than others however.

I don't know what Dr. King would feel right today because some White guy shot him because he was trying to make Black People equal to White People.

I shouldn't have to show anyone the awesomeness of "my race". The awesomeness should be assumed, just like it is for White people and has been for centuries. That is the point.

Yes, we do need to understand and love one another. The problem is that people are trying to tell White people what some of the problems are and a lot of White people don't see, don't want to see, or don't care.

[gollygee]

226. Love!

I was going to quote the best part of this post and then I realized I'd have to quote the whole thing.

[mcar]

256. Ooh whitesplaining Dr. King

[ehrnst]

333. And you compare yourself to MLK....

And those that disagree with you, therefore, disagree with MLK.

Kudos on finding passive aggressive way to tell POC to shut up because they are hurting your feelings, by invoking MLK. Inventive? Yes. Insulting? Yes. Accurate? No.

Here's quote from MLK about "bigot boxes" you may find enlightening.

First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season."

Shallow understanding from people of goodwill is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection."

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/45a/060.html

So you see, loving each other sometimes means that you challenge racism where you see it, not simply smile and offer "love" and deference person inflicting it, however nicely they may do so.

[MustLoveBeagles]

65. OMG

What the hell dude? What a nasty thing to say. Where in the hell did you get that from Effie's post? That isn't what she's saying at all. In reading many of her postings and my interactions with her, I never got the impression that she was a racist who wanted white men dead. Not once. I think you owe her an apology but I'm not holding my breath.

[askyagerz]

80. Yeah I will apologize the day effie apologizies to me

So probably never lol

[MustLoveBeagles]

142. I didn't expect one

I don't usually comment on threads that turn contentious, but your comment felt like a personal attack against Effie and seemed really OTT. I highly doubt that she hates white men or wants them to die. I interpreted her OP as indictment against systematic racism rather than an attack on liberal white males as individuals or as a group. If you're out there fighting the good fight for liberalism her post doesn't apply to you.

[askyagerz]

168. I dont get that all from her posts.

All I get from her posts is dang effie really hates white people lol. My first two interactions with effie was her jumping in a post out of nowhere and calling me names because it bugs me to have to vote for canidates who voted for the iraq war. Oh the oddasity to have my own opinion! Then the whole next week was how we shouldnt vote for this canidate or that one because they did something she didnt approve of. All I saw was hypocrisy and thats why something just doesnt set right with me about all these white people suck posts. I think she purposely stirring the DU pot and I will continue to say so...

[ChubbyStar]

219. What is oddasity?

[OnDoutside]

112. To be fair, Effie indulges in OTT sweeping generalisations on a site where one assumes EVERYONE

here believes in equality and justice for all (if not, why else be here ?), regardless of creed, color or race. Perhaps if she prefaced her attacks with "Right Wing White Men", it might appear less scattergun. Otherwise, meh.

[MustLoveBeagles]

145. I don't see her posts as attacks against white men

I don't see her posts as attacks against white men but realize not everyone is going to interpret it that way. I don't mind differing opinions but do object to what I see as a personal attack. That's just me. Everyone is free to agree or disagree me on this.

[OnDoutside]

166. And clearly you are in the majority with that opinion, as if

anyone else had made such broad brush generalized accusations, they'd be juried out of it. Consequently I normally try to avoid effie's posts as much as possible when she goes down this road, as I've seen how others jump all over anyone who objects to those scattergun characterizations. Are there white men like that ? Sure. Are all white men like that ? No.

[ehrnst]

190. "not all white men"

That should be a hashtag.

[OnDoutside]

197. I prefer "#StopIllJudgedGeneralizatiins"

But hey.....

[ehrnst]

205. Is there no end to the irritations that being a white male forces one to endure?

Must be horrible.

[OnDoutside]

244. Awful altogether, but at least I get free ice cream.

[ehrnst]

247. And the benefit of the doubt in nearly every situation involving the police

popular culture, employers, etc.

Sucks to be you, I guess.

Especially when you learn that some conservatives are more woke..

https://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=575450176

[OnDoutside]

248. But most of all, the free ice cream. Yum. Boot is talking through his hoop.

This scattergun generalization thrown at posters on this site, is at best misguided, at worst, up there with the Nina Turner Scorched Earth policy. It is absolutely true that Black people in the US are regularly treated disgustingly but to suggest that White men are privileged to be treated normally, is horse manure. Normal is how everyone should be treated, no matter race, creed or color. Above all, Free ice cream for everyone !

[tonedevil]

249. Well then what do you use...

to describe the current situation where black people are not treated equally, by a long shot, and being white, especially a white man, gives license to do most anything with very little consequence? You may think that everyone should be treated equally, but that ideal is far from reality. What you are saying is the same as someone saying All Lives Matter in response to Black Lives Matter.

[OnDoutside]

250. My issue is with the scattergun generalization of the phrase. It's not white men of the center or

left who are discriminating against black people, yet this poorly thought out White Privilege phrase fires at all white men. If you can't come up with something better/more specific than that, then Racial Discrimination is what this is.

[tonedevil]

251. #notallwhitemen /nt

[ehrnst]

253. And we have claims of reverse racism!

Bingo!




Somebody's fragile sense of entitlement is being challenged...

https://theundefeated.com/features/why-do-so-many-white-people-deny-the-existence-of-white-privilege/

[OnDoutside]

260. Someone already used that fatuous prop on this thread. Do keep up.

[ehrnst]

272. You post like you missed it the first time.

And, yes, you did throw out reverse racism!

[OnDoutside]

279. I saw it the first time and it had all the hallmarks of trying to shut down debate then too !

Still, it's a handy one to keep in the arse pocket I suppose.

[ehrnst]

282. It's so hard being marginalised, isn't it? To be persecuted simply for being more

intelligent and perceptive than everyone else is a cross you bear a lot, I'm guessing.

I'm sensing someone who can dish it out, but can't take it in a forum of free debate. Especially one who whines that people who make points that reveal one's own participation in cultural white privilege that they "refuse to take helpful advice."




Methinks the lady doth protest too much concerning white privilege. When one takes deep personal umbrage at valid critiques of cultural white fragility and privilege, and bellyaches that one is personally being attacked, one is perceived to be selecting footwear, and upon finding the size that matches perfectly, lacing that bitch up and wearing it.



See also
#AllLivesMatter
#WhiteLivesMatter
#NotAllMen

[OnDoutside]

290. Yes, yes it is......it's a tough station, which perhaps one day you will get there too...

I should point out that when it is one's opinion that they are "valid critiques", one should be open to the possibility that others might disagree.

[ehrnst]

295. You disagree with the idea that systemic racism and bias

Last edited Wed May 30, 2018, 09:14 AM - Edit history (3)

are an issue for women and POC in the U.S.?

And you disagree that white privilege and white fragility is at the root of the denial of it - as your posts clearly indicate?

It's as though you expect to be deferred to, even though your ideas aren't really supported by data, and the experiences of others. Or that your experience and point of veiw is more valid than, and trumps even, all the contradicting data and real experience of others - who are at the recieving end of that fragility.

I wonder why that is.



#ImcolorblindIdontseeracism

#Ifitdoesntaffectmeitdoesntexist

And you feel qualified to pontificate to women and people of color in the States about how their experiences and veiws are (TRIGGER WARNING - I am about to copy&paste something because, you see, I want to reference your exact words. Avert your eyes if you need to....) "bloated, cringe nonsense?" And apparently disagreeing with you in any way on the topic is "promoting" racism.

Ooooh, Guuuurl, aren't you important.

[OnDoutside]

300. Ok, I have to call you out on that pretty low ball lie. That's a poor reflection on you, to be fair.

Please point out where I said the "idea that systemic racism and bias" wasn't an issue for women and POC in the U.S.? And retract please.

As for the rest

It's as though you expect to be deferred to, even though your ideas aren't really supported by data, and the experiences of others. Or that your experience and point of veiw is more valid than, and trumps even, all the contradicting data and real experience of others - who are at the recieving end of that fragility.

Did you cut and paste that too ? I gave an opinion, for which you threw your toys out of the pram. Your notion of "your ideas aren't really supported by data" Data ? I've been talking about the inappropriate use of descriptive words ! Where were you at ???

And you feel qualified to pontificate to women and people of color in the States about how their experiences and veiws are (TRIGGER WARNING - I am about to copy&paste something because, you see, I want to reference your exact words. Avert your eyes if you need to....) "bloated, cringe nonsense?"

As I said in a previous post, if posting in the General Discussion forum, you shouldn't expect Happy-clappy, Yay-for-U unquestioning posts automatically.

And apparently disagreeing with you in any way on the topic is "promoting" racism.

Again, point out where I said that or retract please.

[JustAnotherGen]

309. Are you in the USA?

Arse Pocket? British right? I'm always interested in perspectives from outside of the USA.

[ehrnst]

312. Oh, so now I'm a "liar" for responding as you did to Effie?

Pot, meet kettle. I knew that would hit a nerve, to be fair.



But I'll play your silly game. Why don't you point out where Effie made the "scattergun" that "all white men like that."

Or where I said, "reinstate white racial equilibrium."

Until then, you're throwing out "scattergun" "lowball lies," too.

And another false dilemma ("false dillemma fallacy" for those of you out there playing fallacy Bingo with doutside's posts) - that actually replying to my posts instead of deflecting is = " Happy-clappy, Yay-for-U unquestioning posts automatically. " Got a bit of dualistic thinking going on there dontcha think, Boo? You might wanna calm down before posting.

You have lobbed your own "lowball lies" - TRIGGER WARNING: I am going to copy and paste your own words.)

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=10673487

So I'm shielding all the whites here, all the whites in the Democratic Party and all progressive whites all over, from any responsibility for addressing how they benefit from racism and discrimination - righty oh.

Now point out where she said that, or retract please. (See what I did there?)

But here's where you fatuously stated that disagreeing with your opinions leads us down the "slippery slope" (that's another one on the Bingo card, folks!!)

The White Privilege stuff is the type of bloated, cringe nonsense that you'd expect from the likes of Nina Turner, the politics of misguided anger, which is counter productive to the proper aim of ending discrimination. But sure, work away and ignore helpful advice.

Now I get that a white man who doesn't live in as diverse society as we have in the U.S. might not have the tools to understand WP in action, but that's not Effie's problem. It's yours.

Trolling may give you that fix of "I'm being persecuted for being a white male" validation that you seem to crave, but you're going to have to deal with being called out on it. That's where your white fragility is really a handicap.

Is that clearer?

[OnDoutside]

331. Here ya go

"Straight White Male" is the lowest difficulty setting there is

Scattergun much ?

Happy to help Quick, play to gallery with the Bingo card !

And to re-state, "Please point out where I said the "idea that systemic racism and bias" wasn't an issue for women and POC in the U.S.? "

See #295 from Effie :

But I now see the point of your semantic gymnastics - and that’s exactly what they are - to shield white people from any responsibility for addressing how they benefit from racism and discrimination because, after all, they’re only enjoying from what they deserve to have in the first place.

Wow, she's using the scattergun "white people". There was no attempt to narrow that down, which was my point in the very first post on this topic.

Where did I say, you said "reinstate white racial equilibrium." ? TBF, we've had a few interactions.

#250. My issue is with the scattergun generalization of the phrase.

Watching from d'outside actually gives a good perspective, as I sit here with my free ice cream

[ehrnst]

338. Again...

"Straight White Male" is the lowest difficulty setting there is

Nope, not scattershot, any more than saying, "there is racism among white people" is.

Try again.

But I now see the point of your semantic gymnastics - and that’s exactly what they are - to shield white people from any responsibility for addressing how they benefit from racism and discrimination because, after all, they’re only enjoying from what they deserve to have in the first place.

That is the definition of white fragility....of which you are a textbook illustration. You think that her statements are outsized and personal attacks, because you can't see the big picture.

Again... Where did I say, "reinstate white racial equilibrium." Your generalizations about are your problems, not my quotes. Ok, I have to call you out on that pretty low ball lie. That's a poor reflection on you, to be fair. Since you can't back up your accusation, care to retract?

Watching from d'outside actually gives a good perspective, as I sit here with my free ice cream.

Like sitting on a plantation porch gives one a "good perspective," on what's going on in the field. That's an American reference. Look it up when you're done with your ice cream.

[OnDoutside]

345. That I would disagree with

The Straight White Male includes Democrats and Progressives.

Re the white fragility accusation, again you are wrong. I'm not American and don't live in America, but I want the best for all Americans as soon as possible. I just don't believe this is overly helpful. There you go, it's an opinion, not an attack.

Re "reinstate white racial equilibrium." I asked you where I posted that. Can you give me the post # for that please, as I can't find it ?

Thanks for the slave owner allusion btw ! I'll still enjoy the ice cream though.

[ehrnst]

315. Boo, honey, there is research. analysis and data on White Privilege

It wasn't just invented by Effie to make you unhappy. The term existed before you had a chance to get all defensive about it. Really.

Now this is U.S. research, but since you are whitesplaining Americans here, I feel that it's relevant nonetheless.


http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0309132514563008?journalCode=phgb

Geographies of race and ethnicity: White supremacy vs white privilege in environmental racism research

In this report I compare two forms of racism: white privilege and white supremacy. I examine how they are distinct and can be seen in the environmental racism arena. I argue that within US geographic scholarship white privilege has become so widespread that more aggressive forms of racism, such as white supremacy, are often overlooked.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/white-prevalence-why-we-whites-dont-see-white-privilege_us_5970cb92e4b04dcf308d2aa1

Many people misunderstand what white privilege is. They think it means that we whites don’t struggle. That’s not the case. It means that the quality of our struggles are different than other racial groups’ because we’re considered the “default” group by an overwhelming majority of the systems we interact with.

We are racial insiders rather than racial outsiders. The advantages we have over people of color in our system stem from our insider status. It is not a guarantee of success in life. I understand white privilege as being the product of white prevalence. Prevalent is defined as 1) being in ascendancy: dominant; and 2) generally or widely accepted, practiced, or favored: widespread. It’s also worth noting that the words prevalent and prevail come from the same root. White privilege has at its root the goal of whites prevailing over other groups.

As whites, our typical experience is fundamentally what all people should expect in a race-neutral society: our race is respected by the systems through which we move. In many ways, it’s treated as a non-factor. This is at the core of the biggest misconception about white privilege. White privilege’s advantages come from NOT being excluded from mainstream society in the ways that people of color are.
We don’t, however, have to compete on equal footing with non-whites. That’s why a white person can be poor and still have white privilege.

https://researchguides.uoregon.edu/white-privilege/books

Attacking the common view that whiteness is a meaningless category of identity, this book shows that public policy and private prejudice insure that whites wind up on top of the social hierarchy. It probes into the social and material rewards that accrue to the possessive investment in whiteness.

So, tell us - what credentials do you have that make your opinions worth more than those that did this research?

Other than being a white male, of course.

[ehrnst]

252. Glad to have a man whitesplain to all us misguided souls

"White people in North America live in a social environment that protects and insulates them from race-based stress. This insulated environment of racial protection builds white expectations for racial comfort while at the same time lowering the ability to tolerate racial stress, leading to what I refer to as White Fragility. White Fragility is a state in which even a minimum amount of racial stress becomes intolerable, triggering a range of defensive moves. These moves include the outward display of emotions such as anger, fear, and guilt, and behaviors such as argumentation, silence, and leaving the stress-inducing situation. These behaviors, in turn, function to reinstate white racial equilibrium."

Robin DiAngelo, PhD

[OnDoutside]

262. More copy and paste, while irrelevant to the issue.

[ehrnst]

270. Very relevant to the issue. That's why it makes you uncomfortable. (tn)

[OnDoutside]

274. It is irrelevant, unless you are accusing all white men on this site of wanting to

"reinstate white racial equilibrium" as your cut and paste suggests ? If so, then it says more about you than the guy quoted. Do you even read this stuff before posting ?

[ehrnst]

275. And we have a strawman!

Or perhaps in your non-chalantly desperate attempts to get in a bon mot to anyone who corrects you as confusing me with some poster that is "accusing all white men on this site of wanting to "reinstate white racial equilibrium."

[George II]

255. Ben & Jerry's?

[OnDoutside]

264. Ugh, can't stand that. Do you not find B&J a bit synthetic ?

[mcar]

257. Bless your heart!

[OnDoutside]

265. And bless yours too !

[sheshe2]

259. Oh!

It is absolutely true that Black people in the US are regularly treated disgustingly but to suggest that White men are privileged to be treated normally, is horse manure.

We had horses growing up. Have you ever mucked out a stall?

[OnDoutside]

266. Must be great in your world to have horses, not for us mere mortals !

[ehrnst]

277. And we have a Red herring!

But really, you need to start expanding your derailing techniques. They're getting predictable for the rest of us - and you know how much we need to be entertained in order to pay attention to white men telling us what we're wrong about.

"The thing is, you’re having a good time, sharing your knowledge about these people and their issues. This knowledge is incontrovertible – it’s been backed up in media representation, books, research and lots and lots of historical events, also your own unassailable sense of being right.

Yet all of a sudden something happens to put a dampener on your sharing of your enviable intellect and incomparable capacity to fully perceive and understand All Things. It’s someone who belongs to the group of people you’re discussing and they’re Not Very Happy with you. Apparently, they claim, you’ve got it all wrong and they’re offended about that. They might be a person of colour, or a queer person. Maybe they’re a woman, or a person with disability. They could even be a trans person or a sex worker. The point is they’re trying to tell you they know better than you about their issues and you know that’s just plain wrong. How could you be wrong?

Don’t worry though! There IS something you can do to nip this potentially awkward and embarrassing situation in the bud. By simply derailing the conversation, dismissing their opinion as false and ridiculing their experience you can be sure that they continue to be marginalised and unheard and you can continue to look like the expert you know you really are, deep down inside!

CONGRATULATIONS, YOU HAVE PRIVILEGE!

Just follow this step-by-step guide to Conversing with Marginalised People™ and in no time at all you will have a fool-proof method of derailing every challenging conversation you may get into, thus reaping the full benefits of every privilege that you have.

The best part is, you don’t even have to be a white, heterosexual, cisgendered, cissexual, upper-class male to enjoy the full benefits of derailing conversation! Nope, you can utilise the lesser-recognised tactic of Horizontal Hostility to make sure that, despite being a member of a Marginalised Group™ yourself, you can exercise a privilege another Marginalised Group™ doesn’t have in order not to heed their experience!

Read on, and learn, and remember… you don’t have to use these in any particular order! In fact, mixing them up can really keep those Marginalised People™ on their toes! After all, they are pretty much used to hearing this stuff, so you don’t want to get too predictable or they’ll get lazy!"

http://www.derailingfordummies.com/

[OnDoutside]

285. Derailing the Non-Derailing ! Well done !

Just because someone helpfully points out the glaring and quite obvious flaws with wild generalizations, they're accused of derailing the thread. Perhaps this thread should have been put in some closed mind forum in the first place, rather than General Discussion ?

[ehrnst]

297. Somebody is mad that everyone knows that they are not the bold original

thinker that they thought they were, and fits a sad stereotype instead.

It must have been irritating that your type of clueless closed-minded online pontificating is the subject of satire - really biting satire.

No wonder you want to to shut down the conversation, and change the topic. Nice touch, going on the offensive.

[OnDoutside]

301. Don't be too hard on yourself !

Exposed as the Cut & Paste King/Queen of DU can't be too good for ya

[ehrnst]

304. And now we have "I know you are but what am I?"

Keep on deflecting - it's sure easier actually addressing the valid points I make. I know it stings.

Next time, may I suggest focusing on criticising my spelling or punctuation, instead of actually responding, to try to make yourself feel like you have the upper hand in a losing argument with people who know more than you do about this? That will mix it up a bit, and give the appearance of not using the same avoidance technique like making "Cut & Paste King/Queen" the basis for your rebuttal.

Or just find your next predictable response in the Derailing by Entitlement guide. Of course, we're all ahead of you now, and it'll save your fingers.

[OnDoutside]

321. It shouldn't be necessary to remind you

but you did post this

Somebody is mad that everyone knows that they are not the bold original

thinker that they thought they were, and fits a sad stereotype instead.

It must have been irritating that your type of clueless closed-minded online pontificating is the subject of satire - really biting satire.

No wonder you want to to shut down the conversation, and change the topic. Nice touch, going on the offensive.

If you want to dish it out, be prepared to get a response.

[ehrnst]

343. Honey, I'm not the one whining about other people here giving them a sad

by pointing out white privilege and white fragility, and being all mean and stuff, because I DO NOT HAVE PRIVILEGE!! MY POV IS THE "NORMAL" ONE!!! YOU ARE TRYING TO SHUT ME DOWN!!! MY FRIENDS TOLD ME SO!!!"

If you want to dish it out, be prepared to get a response.

Now who's copying and pasting?

[OnDoutside]

352. It's still YOU !!!

[ehrnst]

357. "I know you are but what am I?"

Oops, I forgot the trigger warning.

Are you OK?

Do you still see people trying to "shut you down?"

[OnDoutside]

364. I found it !

It was in a post where you posted the quote by Robin DiAngelo #252

"White people in North America live in a social environment that protects and insulates them from race-based stress. This insulated environment of racial protection builds white expectations for racial comfort while at the same time lowering the ability to tolerate racial stress, leading to what I refer to as White Fragility. White Fragility is a state in which even a minimum amount of racial stress becomes intolerable, triggering a range of defensive moves. These moves include the outward display of emotions such as anger, fear, and guilt, and behaviors such as argumentation, silence, and leaving the stress-inducing situation. These behaviors, in turn, function to reinstate white racial equilibrium."

Robin DiAngelo, Ph.D

Happy to help

[ehrnst]

367. Actually - you said that I was "accusing all men on this site" of that...

Last edited Thu May 31, 2018, 08:16 AM - Edit history (3)

Where does your copy& paste show that? Silly boy - you got all excited thinking you were gonna finally show that I was "wrong."



But I'll bite... what it is about (TRIGGER WARNING: copy&paste coming up)

"These behaviors, in turn, function to reinstate white racial equilibrium,"

gets under your skin?

All your credentials should come in handy in splaining that.

[OnDoutside]

369. Ha ! Just proves I was right about your cut & paste track record, you can't even

stand over what you posted.

Much clearer, thanks !

[ehrnst]

374. You seem to forget that you accused ME of of "accusing every man on this site"

Last edited Thu May 31, 2018, 08:27 AM - Edit history (6)

Or are you saying that the author of that paragraph was talking about DU?


Desperately trying to deflect from the damning content of rebuttals that reveal your posts to be (TRIGGER WARNING - "copy&paste" coming up!)

"horse manure"

with pointing your index finger at the screen, throwing back your head and yelling "cut and paste queen!!!"

So fragile.

[OnDoutside]

381. YES ! But in fairness that was before I realized you didn't stand behind what you posted.

[ehrnst]

382. Where did I post that I accused all men on this site of this?

That was never a post of mine.

I stand behind my posts, in fact I cite them.

I guess you can't stand behind yours.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=10673198

It is irrelevant, unless you are accusing all white men on this site of wanting to

"reinstate white racial equilibrium" as your cut and paste suggests ? If so, then it says more about you than the guy quoted. Do you even read this stuff before posting ?

Your strawman is not my statement. Doubling down doesn't make it so.. It's a low ball lie, as you like to say.

[OnDoutside]

386. Wow, this is becoming a little surreal. You JUST said

EHRNST wrote

Where did I post that I accused all men on this site of this?

and then in the body of the post you wrote a post of mine

It is irrelevant, unless you are accusing all WHITE men on this site of wanting to

Which is goes back to the scattergun generalization of my first reply to Effie !!!

The discussion was about the generalization in Effie's OP, which targeted all white men and didn't even exclude the white men on this site, and then you bring in that nonsense White Fragility quote, which you clearly didn't read.

I 100% stand by the question in that post. So in your post of that quote, which actually even goes beyond Straight White Men to completely generalize "White People in North America", bearing in mind you just wrote in your post to me

I stand behind my posts, in fact I cite them

here is the quote YOU posted

"White people in North America live in a social environment that protects and insulates them from race-based stress. This insulated environment of racial protection builds white expectations for racial comfort while at the same time lowering the ability to tolerate racial stress, leading to what I refer to as White Fragility. White Fragility is a state in which even a minimum amount of racial stress becomes intolerable, triggering a range of defensive moves. These moves include the outward display of emotions such as anger, fear, and guilt, and behaviors such as argumentation, silence, and leaving the stress-inducing situation. These behaviors, in turn, function to reinstate white racial equilibrium."

Robin DiAngelo, Ph.D

You can't have it both ways, unless you actually believe "White People in North America" really means "White People in North America, except the White members of DU" ?

At the end of the day, I'm not insulted/fragile by this as I'm not American, but I do hope for the best for all Americans, as an interested outsider. As an outsider, I look at the WP/WF phrases and I question the end goal of such broad generalizations, which I'm sure you will remember that I asked you who these are intended for.

[ehrnst]

387. Let me simplify it for you.

"White people in North America" also own most of the homes in North America. But do all white people in America own homes? No.

"White people in North America" are the ones who supported Trump. Did all white people in North America support Trump? No.

"White people in North America" have cultural advantages (the benefit of the doubt in police stops, access to higher paying jobs, etc) that POC in the North America don't have. Does each and every White person in North America have cultural advantages over every single POC in North America? No.

Irish citizens voted to decriminalise abortions. Did every Irish citizen vote to decriminalise abortions? No.

And no, I never inferred it. You needed a reason to attack a post that cited a scholar that refuted your veiws on white privilege, so you misrepresented and generalized it to a point where you could portray *me* as attacking "the white people on DU," using ad Hominen, false dillemas and strawmen.

No one is trying to "have it both ways" except you, who project your own fallacies on others. As someone who actually said that being "an outsider" in part as a white man, are credentials to whitesplain to POC in the U.S. you seem to be very triggered by an OP written by another white man. Your giddy derision of me providing backup for my claims rebutting your posts, and showing that your posts are very typical of white men derailing discussions with POC, and the definition of White Privilege simply magnify the fact that you have nothing to back your claims up, except that they come from a white man. Which is why you deflect so desperately when they are presented.

I hope that clarifies things for you.

You're welcome.

[OnDoutside]

389. Nice but you're reading stuff in that simply isn't there.

That's what you took, or are conveniently taking now, from WP/WF, where there is no such accommodation.

And that's the reason for my questioning the scattergun generalization of the OP right from the start. It now suits your purposes to put forward those examples, but they're rather hollow, bearing in mind all the to and fro we've had over the last day. Those accommodations are neither in the OP nor the quote.

This scholar blanket described "White People in North America", concluding with "These behaviors, in turn, function to reinstate white racial equilibrium." And you said you stood behind it. Now, I am not a WPiNA, but there are plenty on DU, so you own that.

[ehrnst]

390. Actually, I "copied and pasted" your exact words in several posts...

No wonder you don't like it. That way you can deny what you meant - very

"Trumplike" Hi ya, Donald!

.



Your embarassment at being schooled rings more true than your projecting onto others your own logical fallacies, which ring hollow.

I guess this could be called a "triple-down" on your part, after being shown your own words, and your own false generalizations. I suggest you make use of the "ignore" feature to save yourself more upset.

You seem like a nice kid, if lacking in self-awareness. I recommend that you get out more with your friends, if you have them. There are many young white men in Ireland, so you should have plenty to choose from. Of course, that just might be an echo-chamber for you, but hey, you take what you can get.

Take care, Boo, and get some sleep. It should be your bedtime soon.

[OnDoutside]

391. Ehrnst, The Art of Deflection !

You should write a book, a cut and paste book of course !

No answer from you, but hey I'm in tune with you now, it's ok.

Yes, there are plenty of young men in Ireland but unlike you, I'm not going to scattergun generalize about them !!!

I'm not going to put you on ignore, ehrnst, I really enjoyed this joust, and look forward to more in the future I hope

p.s. It's only 4pm here and we are actually having our summer this week and next, so it's BBQ time !

[ehrnst]

392. The art of projection...

Hit a nerve, did I? Ignored my answer, and desperate for something resembling a "win."



Bedtime for kids is 7:30 over here. You'll need to eat dinner and take a bath first. You can play with your scattergun in the tub, too!

I really enjoyed this joust, and look forward to more in the future I hope. Perhaps you'll learn something.

[OnDoutside]

393. Hahaha, looking forward to it !

[ehrnst]

394. Indeed

Tag, ur it...

[Eliot Rosewater]

365. Non POC males (I cant use the W word) are privileged and start life on at LEAST 2nd base.

[ehrnst]

388. Not sure that someone in Ireland is going to get a baseball reference

Doutie doesn't get any reference that illustrates his white fragility.

[ehrnst]

254. White Privilege: Examples, Unpacking, and User Guide

Examples of White Privilege

I can, if I wish, arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.
I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me.
If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.
I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.
I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.
I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.
When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization," I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.
I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials thatÖ testify to the existence of their race.
I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can cut my hair.
Whether I use checks, credit cards, or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.
I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them.
I do not have to educate my children to be aware of systemic racism for their own daily physical protection.
I can be pretty sure that my children's teachers and employers will tolerate them if they fit school and workplace norms.
If I declare there is a racial issue at hand, or there isn't a racial issue at hand, my race will lend me more credibility for either position than ’a person of color will have.
I can choose to ignore developments in minority writing and minority activist programs, or disparage them, or learn from them, but in my case, I can find ways to be more or less protected from negative consequences of any of these choices.
My culture gives me little fear about ignoring the perspectives and powers of people of other races.
I am not made acutely aware that my shape, bearing or body odor will be taken as a reflection on my race.
I can worry about racism without being seen as self-interested or self seeking.
I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having my co-workers on the job suspect that I got it because of my race.
If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether it has racial overtones.
I can be pretty sure of finding people who would be willing to talk with me and advise me about my next steps, professionally.
I can think over many options - social, political, imaginative, or professional - without asking whether a person of my race would be accepted or allowed to do what I want to do.
I can be late to a meeting without having the lateness reflect on my race.
I can choose public accommodation without fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be mistreated in the places I have chosen.
I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.
I can arrange my activities so that I will never have to experience feelings of rejection owing to my face.
If I have low credibility as a leader, I can be sure that my race is not the problem.




https://neym.org/rsej/white-privilege-examples-unpacking-and-user-guide

[mcar]

258. Please make this an OP

Please?

[OnDoutside]

261. Outstanding copy and paste abilities. All examples of normal behaviour,

not privilege. Privilege assumes that it is not the norm.

[EffieBlack]

263. Yes. It's normal behavior for some people - the fact that it's normal is the privilege

Those things are not “normal behaviour” for most people who are not white and do not have the privilege of taking them for granted, as you seem to.

[OnDoutside]

267. In any civilized society normal should be the expectation for all. It is an

oxymoron to put forward that normal is a privilege. That there are citizens in your society who are not treated normally, is wrong, and is discrimination. I know you've been banging on about this here for quite a while, which is why I try to avoid reading your posts unfortunately, largely as your supporters in the threads jump in to shut down any debate. This thread is no different.

[ehrnst]

273. In any civilized society normal should be the expectation for all.

It is white male privilege to put forward that their particular privilege is "normal" and not the outlier for most people.

That there are those non-white, non-male citizens in your society who are not treated like you are, and that is wrong, and is discrimination. To put the white male veiwpoint as the measure of "normal" is to dismiss or render suspect that which is not the white male viewpoint, as you are doing on this thread. To tell those who are not white male what is and is not "privilege" or "normal," is not only cluelessness, it is bigoted - clueless bigotry, until of course, one is informed of it. At that point it becomes malicious bigotry.

In the midst of constant self absorption, adding a dollop of self awareness gives one more credibility.

I know you've been banging on with your arrogant lecturing here for quite a while, which is why I try to avoid reading your posts unfortunately, largely as your supporters in the threads jump in to shut down any debate. However the fact that the continued posting of self satisfied, clueless posts indicates that no one has shut down any debate, doesn't it?

How was that?

[OnDoutside]

283. Much better effort !

To address your points,

It is white male privilege to put forward that their particular privilege is "normal" and not the outlier for most people.

Hang on, in Post #247, you are the very one who said "And the benefit of the doubt in nearly every situation involving the police, popular culture, employers, etc." !!! Lol, I would hope EVERYONE would be treated this way, and that is normality in the expectation of mutual respect. Clearly it is reasonable to want everyone to be treated normally, or is your wish that everyone be treated like shit ?

To put the white male veiwpoint as the measure of "normal" is to dismiss or render suspect that which is not the white male viewpoint, as you are doing on this thread. To tell those who are not white male what is and is not "privilege" or "normal," is not only cluelessness, it is bigoted - clueless bigotry, until of course, one is informed of it. At that point it becomes malicious bigotry.

In the midst of constant self absorption, adding a dollop of self awareness gives one more credibility.

It might have escaped you but the OP posted the first post in this thread, and received one or more replies querying the reasoning of the hypothesis, at which point others jumped on with plenty of cut&pastes to shut down dissent of the Emperor's New Clothes. Forums "normally" don't work that way.

I know you've been banging on with your arrogant lecturing here for quite a while, which is why I try to avoid reading your posts unfortunately, largely as your supporters in the threads jump in to shut down any debate. However the fact that the continued posting of self satisfied, clueless posts indicates that no one has shut down any debate, doesn't it?

I see what you tried to do there, ha ! You might take a moment from your "own self absorption", and consider your own cut&paste posts on this thread alone !

[ehrnst]

289. I'm glad you approve

Now, to address your address...

"And the benefit of the doubt in nearly every situation involving the police, popular culture, employers, etc." !!! Lol, I would hope EVERYONE would be treated this way, and that is normality in the expectation of mutual respect. Clearly it is reasonable to want everyone to be treated normally, or is your wish that everyone be treated like shit ? "

You are spectacularly missing the point of what you have been stating in your posts - with a false dillema fallacy thrown in (nice choice - one doesn't usually get to work one of those in a derail where you have been attacking strawmen. Bravo!)

In your posts, you have been stating that anyone who puts for the very idea that white men have "privilege" is = to saying that no white men should be treated that way, when they have not said that at all. They are simply saying that white men are automatically given that which they did not earn, and is being witheld from those who do earn it, but aren't white and male - often because white men feel that "those people" didn't earn any part of what they consider theirs by right (such as not being considered a danger by white people, or being considered as qualified or smart as white men). Many white police officers are bestowed the privilege of having their unfounded fears of a black male validated - Or considered "normal" as you put it.

You are getting your knickers in a knot over the concept that you may not have earned what you feel is normal deference to your wishes and biases, and that it may have been bestowed upon you as a privilege by virtue of the fact that you stand when you pee and that your dick is white. Your "wish that everyone be treated as you are" or "normally" isn't as much of a gracious magnanimous gesture when it's followed up by lecturing marginalised people that they shouldn't be hurting your feelings by saying that you didn't need to earn the respect you consider normal.

You might take a moment from your "own self absorption", and consider your own cut&paste posts on this thread alone

You also seem to be triggered by someone who uses your own words to show you how you are embodying clueless white fragility, and provides citations for the premise ythat your derailing efforts aren't really original - and they have, in fact been catagorised with other such condescending, clueless, tone deaf and unsupported reactions of white men to being faced with the reality of their privilege.

It shows you that you do indeed fall right into those various categories on that bingo card, and that is what gets your panties in a wad, doesn't it? That your ideas might be part of a mindset that is blind to your privilege.

I hope that clarifies things for you.

You're welcome.

[gollygee]

291. There are more people of color in the US than you apparently realize

it isn't like there are 5% of people who are not experiencing this privilege. If it were a small percentage, then maybe you could see it as abnormal, but it's a pretty large group of people so it's still well within the bounds of normal.

Racism in the US is normal. I agree that it shouldn't be, but it is.

[EffieBlack]

293. If some people get to have "normal" and other people are denied "normal," the people who get to be

normal have privilege.

By your reckoning, wealthy people who have access to quality healthcare that’s not available to people without means aren’t privileged because, after all, they have what everyone DESERVES to have.

But I now see the point of your semantic gymnastics - and that’s exactly what they are - to shield white people from any responsibility for addressing how they benefit from racism and discrimination because, after all, they’re only enjoying from what they deserve to have in the first place.

Gotcha.

[OnDoutside]

298. That post was like someone playing runaway knock !

Gotcha, me arse !

Seriously, you still don't get it.

If some people get to have "normal" and other people are denied "normal," the people who get to be normal have privilege.

Noooo.... it means the other people are being discriminated against.

And yes, Quality Healthcare is a right, and must be a normal for everyone. So you don't believe that ?

But I now see the point of your semantic gymnastics - and that’s exactly what they are - to shield white people from any responsibility for addressing how they benefit from racism and discrimination because, after all, they’re only enjoying from what they deserve to have in the first place.

Wow, thanks for recognising my superpowers !!! So I'm shielding all the whites here, all the whites in the Democratic Party and all progressive whites all over, from any responsibility for addressing how they benefit from racism and discrimination - righty oh. All that from pointing out the issue with your OP, which you obviously have an issue being challenged on.

[ehrnst]

328. Some real denial and masculine white tears going on there.

Shame on you, Effie - triggering my Boo with your talk of him not having earned all that "normal" deference and authority, but being handed it because of, well, you know - having a white penis. There, I said it.

He probably just took some Ambien or something.

[OnDoutside]

276. No, Effie, it's called discrimination or bigotry or racism. To be treated in a normal way is the

least anyone can expect. The White Privilege stuff is the type of bloated, cringe nonsense that you'd expect from the likes of Nina Turner, the politics of misguided anger, which is counter productive to the proper aim of ending discrimination. But sure, work away and ignore helpful advice.

[ehrnst]

280. And we have Derailing using Retaliation for the win!

You have pretty much memorised the D for D method of anonymous internet debate, haven't you?

You can play on this concern by alarming and insulting them with the implication you think they are homogenizing their own group. It also works to suggest to them that their experience is worthless because it doesn’t align with everyone’s – particularly those that you’ve decided to favor - that is, the experiences that, to your mind, back up your prejudices. This is belittling and offensive in the extreme as you are essentially denying their reality. People’s personal experiences are important to them, so it’s likely they will, whilst getting increasingly hurt and upset, continue to try and defend and “prove” them to your exacting measures while you can bask in the satisfaction of knowing you have caused them distress. You are well on your way to winning!

In arguments about race, it takes a slightly different form, generally in white people telling People of Color that they’re “seeing race where none exists”. You, on the other hand, are “ color blind” and we live in “post-racial” times. It’s them who are making everything about race and their experience of racism in their daily lives is simply imagined. If only they could let it go, the whole world would live in post-racial harmony!

You really want to ignore any claims the marginalized person may make about having done thorough research, deconstructing and unpacking of these issues. You also really want to deny their autonomy. There are few things so infuriating as infantilizing an adult and telling them they’re delusional about their own reality. But they need to understand that, no matter what, you know better.

You also want that marginalized person to be continuously aware just how “on the fringes” they are, and always will be (providing you get your way – but that’s what Privilege® is for, after all!).You can achieve both these things by accusing the marginalized person of not playing fair, or of not playing with “the team” (i.e.: you and all the other Privileged People® backing you up).“C’mon”, you say, “we’re all doing our best to participate in a reasonable, impartial debate. You aren’t joining in. You’re trying to turn this into a fight. You’re ruining it for everyone else!” In other words: if you just did and said exactly everything we Privileged People® demand of you, life would be so much easier. For me. For you, well, what gave you the impression I care about you?

http://www.derailingfordummies.com/derail-using-retaliation/

[OnDoutside]

286. Aaaand there you go again with cut & paste, you're going to wear out those keys !!! ;)

[ehrnst]

294. You are triggered by citations, aren't you?

And your own words being deployed in an argument against them.

But by all means, use up that bounty of red herring you have and avoid dealing with being schooled by someone who is not a white male,a and actually lives in the States.

Beats self awareness, doesn't it? Or at the very least, dealing with the fact that one has been shown to fit a sad stereotype of a narrowminded, self-absorbed white mansplainer, rather than a bold, original thinker. That's gotta hurt.

[OnDoutside]

299. And all that from your being unable to accept an alternate view ?

[ehrnst]

310. You mean disagreeing with you on something you're clearly not informed about

or have any ability to learn from those who experience it?

The thing is, I understand your view. I understand that it comes from being convinced that one has never experienced privilege, and all respect they experience is earned, or simply the result of a life considerately well lived. Not simply bestowed.

Yes, I understand that perfectly. I don't think you do.

I accept that your view comes from a lack of understanding, which serves your view of yourself.

I don't accept that WP is "horse manure," any more than I "accept" that global warming is "horse manure" just because it will confirm someone's bias.

Is that clearer?

[OnDoutside]

322. Hang on, that's not what you did though. You attempted to shut down any contrary opinion with your

bingo baiting. It appears to be a regular occurrence in these Turner-esque far left threads, which is regrettable.

Thing is, you certainly don't know me, as I don't know you, but your own inherent bias appears to be projecting stuff that isn't true.

The old WP/global warning's a particularly false equivalency but if that's where you're at, then off with you.

[ehrnst]

325. How did I "shut down any contrary opinion" in any way that is different than your posts do?

"Bingo baiting?" "Turner-esque?"



Those are new red herrings, I'll give you that. Although, I'd put "Turner-esque" in the "baiting" category more than the Bingo - which when you mocked, you made fair game.

Thing is, you certainly don't know anyone on this board, but your own inherent bias appears to be projecting stuff that isn't true by way of straw men and false dilemmas - and accusations that those who don't agree with you are trying to "shut you down" here on this board. How on earth is anyone here "shutting you down" or attempting to?

Persecution complex? It can be exhausting to justify the discomfort that the concept of White Privilege inflicts by projecting reverse racism on POC who school you on it, can't it?

The old WP/global warning's a particularly false equivalency but if that's where you're at, then off with you.

"Old?" I hadn't heard of it used before, nor is it a false equivalency (it's a similie, Boo, look it up), but I can't imagine it's older that all those tried and true tropes that you seem to have cut from whole cloth out of the Derailing Guide for Dummies. Which is regrettable. If that's where you're at, then off with you. (See what I did there?)

[EffieBlack]

288. Sigh ... White people have privilege BECAUSE of bigotry

Racism and bigotry in America results in people of color being discriminated against. What do you think discrimination is? Among other things, it means that people of color are treated worse than white people are and, consequently, white people have privileges that people of color don’t have.

It’s not complicated.

[OnDoutside]

296. Of course it's not complicated but posts like your OP aren't helpful and,

from my very first post I pointed out that generalizations like this won't do anything to advance the fight against injustice and discrimination. I presume that this is someone's bright spark moment to challenge the ridiculous far right WP phrase. What you describe is discrimination, but what white people have isn't privilege, it's the normal expectation of respect towards themselves, by others. The bigotry/racism that flows through large elements of White America, directly obstructs the normal expectation of respect for person's of color. That's the fight. We both want to get to the same place, but it is my honestly held opinion that this doesn't help. That's all.

[ehrnst]

302. What are your credentials on the topic of race in America?

Especially since you feel entitled to lecture people of color here that their viewpoints and observations on race "won't do anything to advance the fight against injustice and discrimination."

What research have you done that you deserve to be deferred to from POC here in the States? Why should anyone think that is a "normal" thing to do?

We both want to get to the same place, but it is my honestly held opinion that this doesn't help.

Because it implies that white men didn't have to earn the deference and cultural focus they have.

What you describe is discrimination, but what white people have isn't privilege, it's the normal expectation of respect towards themselves, by others.

"Normal" that one segment of the population is the dominant culture to the detriment of any other point of veiw? No.

To point that out may hurt your little feelers, but when a white male here in the U.S:

feels 'irritated' at having to dial "2" for English, and proclaims that having to dial "2" isn't somthing "normal," he should be expected to do,

feels when a person of color in a service job isn't as "respectful" (apologetic) as a "normal" person should expect to be treated,

calls a female politician running against a man "shrill" and "unlikeable" and "abnormal" for being as self confident as a white man,

reacts defensively when they are told that being afraid of a black man walking down the street is their own racism and not "normal"

reacts defensively when someone points out that the deck is stacked in your favor, and to do that, it must be stacked against someone else

reacts defensively, and tries to quash the discussion when the very real WP that they enjoy isn't earned, it's bestowed, and not "normal"

reacts defensively when black men as not acting "normally" even when they are doing the same thing that white people do.

refuses to listen to the actual wisdom and experience of POC, the moment it becomes clear that white people have to do more than just say, "those people are racists and that's bad" to actually be an ally, and tries to lecture them instead...

All of those "expectations of normal" promote and promulgate racism. Pointing them out as being privileged does not - it simply makes those with that mindset react like you do.

That is inherent unconscious racial in the form of White privilege. And men particularly seem to feel it's beneath them to admit that the respect and deference that they are automatically given isn't earned. And it comes at the expense of those they expect to defer to them.

Like you expect Effie to defer to you. In what rational discussion would that be "normal" except for someone with WP?

Is that clearer?

[OnDoutside]

324. No, it's not "clearer" at all.

This t'internet forum thing is causing you a problem in understanding people might have an opinion different to yours.

A question for you, White Privilege is a provocative term, but who do you aim it at ?

One other thing

And men particularly seem to feel it's beneath them to admit that the respect and deference that they are automatically given isn't earned.

I don't agree with this either. Which men ? All men ? All white men ? All RWNJ men ?

[ehrnst]

326. That's too bad.

I had high hopes that you might have potential to learn from this topic. And you still haven't explained how people are "attempting to shut you down" whatever that means. You're still posting away, aren't you?

A question for you, White Privilege is a provocative term, but who do you aim it at ?

It's not my term, Boo. I didn't invent it. The fact that you are bent out of shape about discussion of it says more about you than it does about people who discuss the concept. See my other post for a refresher on it being an area of research and study....

I don't agree with this either. Which men ? All men ? All white men ? All RWNJ men ?

Clearly you do, so it's definitely some men.

Is that clearer?

[OnDoutside]

334. Attempted but not succeeded, unlike others

in this thread. It passes the time for me, thanks !

Ah come on, you're a great one for defending it but you don't know who it's aimed at ??? There's a touch of the People's Front of Judea in The Life of Brian, about this.

Clearly you do, so it's definitely some men.

Ah shucks !

[ehrnst]

335. Now who's flinging around the "false equivalencies?"

And what was "attempted?" Someone proving your posts to be examples of White Fragility?

And what is "not succeeded?" Proving that Effie is promoting reverse racism with her OP?

How is that "shutting you down?" You mean argumentatively?

Ah come on, you're a great one for defending it but you don't know who it's aimed at ???

Are you confusing me with another poster? I truly have no idea what you are talking about.

[OnDoutside]

341. You ?

In yer dreams !

I haven't, and did not suggest that Effie promoted reverse racism in her OP. Of course not. I said it was a scattergun generalization. Hold tough now, Ernst.

Re shutting down, oh come now Ehrnst, putting up the bingo card rather than a reasoned response, shuts down most, though admittedly pushes me the opposite way.

I think it's fair to say I don't think I could possibly confuse you with any other poster !!!

[ehrnst]

342. You use "scattergun" like others use Ambien....

How did the Bingo card "shut you down?"

Does your white fragility extend to hyperbole that others having a little fun here = "shutting you down?"

Puh-lease.

And you have tried soooooooo hard to tell Effie that she is making you, and by extension all "normal" white people all unhappy with her words and such. Yeah, that's pretty much telling her that she's being mean to white people by pointing out that they didn't earn all of that deference and "normal" respect.

She goes and says something that you find "disrespectful" of white people, and you scold her. There's a name for that.

Ah come on, you're a great one for defending it but you don't know who it's aimed at ???

Still no idea what this is about. And yes, it sounds like you got confused on which marginalised person whose experience and scholarship on the topic you were trying to discredit.


Ask one of your buddies if you need to.

[OnDoutside]

350. It didn't shut me down and won't ;)

I'm up for the bit of craic ! Especially as I have the time at the moment.

Effie's not mean ! No need to project too much.

It's not too hard, what audience is the WP phrase/concept aimed at ? Is it POC or Straight White men ?

[ehrnst]

378. What audience do scholars have? Bloggers?

That would be everyone who is interested in the topic. It's not too hard to figure that out.

But it appears that the white male author of the article shared in the OP has the tools to understand it without feeling that his basic masculinity and self-worth are threatened.

Others, not so much. Too fragile. Interesting imaginations though ! Perhaps they need to find a closed-minded forum.

[JustAnotherGen]

311. You should take over the movement

Seriously - have you thought of applying for the job to lead the NAACP?

[ehrnst]

317. Yes, from what I understand they do need some guidance re: their "horse manure" ideas.

Who better than a white man who doesn't live in the U.S. to set them straight them with "helpful ideas," about how their prattling on about "white privilege" is really "not helping."

They probably don't have many opportunities to hear how white men feel about race.

[JustAnotherGen]

330. This times 1000000

Seriously - I've never heard a white man's perspective on race before.

This is all very fresh and new.

[ehrnst]

344. Well apparently not, or you'd stop with all this horse manure

about some white men not "getting it," about race in this country, and that they're helping to perpetuate disparities by "normalizing" white privilege as "default!"

That gives them a big sad and it's "not helping!"

Do you want their wisdom and advice on what the "others" should be thinking and feeling about race in a way that doesn't make White people feel fragile?

Then shut up, because what they tell you is really important, and wise and stuff, and then be sure to thank them that they took time out of their "normal" lives to help you get whatever it is you people want in terms of a "normal" life without bothering them any further.

[JustAnotherGen]

348. I live with a white man

I married him.

Do I REALLY have to listen to every single fucking white man on the planet?

Like - if G Man gets this shit - why can't they? And he's tough as nails. He doesn't whine about jack shit. He doesn't even get a 'man cold'.

He's so disparaging of men he identifies as 'weak'. If G were black man- he'd be a Hotep.

[ehrnst]

349. It's awful isn't it? I mean White men are such victims of all this... this...

lack of respect, and the very THOUGHT that they are the beneficiaries of a setup that relies on all others to be locked out of said benefits. I mean, REALLY...

But that means they're very strong and smart, right and they earned every last bit of deference that they recieve, and by god, they just have to put up with SO MUCH!!

If they DIDN'T push back on being called "privileged" so hard, that would mean they are wussies, right?

I've interviewed some white men, and that's what I found out. Believe me - it wasn't easy finding out what white men like, think, prefer, are better at than everyone else, and want us all to know about race.

[JustAnotherGen]

355. I agree with my husband

It does come off as 'weak'. I'd hate to see some of these keyboard warriors in a really adverse life situation. Like - I'd love to see them rolled up in ball with a blanket over their head under their desk - because that's the IMPRESSION they give.

I would also push every single button in real life.

My husband doesn't have this one in particular - or - ANY of these. It would be fun to try a few out other than boring ones like life mastery, confidence, secure in ones position in the world, pulling others up.

I want to try 'cause tears', defensive, *angry*, and arrogant. I couldn't be married to one like that - but it would be fun to test one out for 10 minutes. That's the point of explosion I think????

[ehrnst]

356. Indeed.

[OnDoutside]

323. What a novel idea ! Let's storm the barricades !

[ehrnst]

327. You would be miserable, and you know it.

Last edited Wed May 30, 2018, 01:10 PM - Edit history (1)

All those people of color are so resistant to your superior "wisdom" on their experience and all, here on DU, with all those credentials on sociology and race.

Can you list those for us again?

Imagine how an actual U.S. organization of people of color would react to you, not giving you the "respect" that "normal" people are entitled to. I think that the word many "normal" people use for that lack of deference and courtesy would be "uppity."

There - now you have an American word that lots of people like who have issues with the term "white privilege" use.

[OnDoutside]

337. No, no, I'm all inclusive !

Still though, the next time they want to road test a new phrase, I'd happily give my two cents worth for free. I'm good that way

[ehrnst]

339. You can just blame it on the Ambien if they get "uppity," right?

You can whitesplain away the spectacular WP that way...

Now, why don't you tell us how you're getting "shut down," because it's real clear no one is, and couldn't if they wanted to.

You're a laugh riot, Boo.

[OnDoutside]

346. Ya better believe it !

[ehrnst]

347. Did you tell your buddies we're an item, Boo?

[OnDoutside]

351. I'll prepare a press release immediately !

[ehrnst]

358. No need to do that.

Just do what you've been doing - if you need a cheerleading squad to feel manly, and validated we understand.

Even if it is other guys - not that there's anything wrong with that.

If there are more of you, does that mean other meanies here can't "shut you down?"

[OnDoutside]

359. You haven't done that yet anyway !

[ehrnst]

360. Done what?

Cheerlead you?

You're my Boo, but really, I have limits.

Is this your paranaoid claim of "being shut down" as if that was possible.

Next you're going to tell us it's the Ambien what giving you these delusions of persecution.

You people are trying to "shut me down" and stop me from posting because you know I'm RIGHT!!!


No to both.

[OnDoutside]

363. "If there are more of you, does that mean other meanies here can't "shut you down?" "

There you go, that's what I replied to

Interesting imagination though !

[JustAnotherGen]

372. Just you

With a candlestick, entering from the Library with Colonel Mustard.

[Eliot Rosewater]

366. I am like you, I simply dont know what to say anymore.

Non POC (cant use the W word) lecturing POC about racism.

It is so common now, EVEN HERE, that I give up trying to point it out to them.

[ehrnst]

271. Actually, no - privilege is assuming that deference to your point of veiw and preferences

the norm for everyone, and not just white men.

To assume that the dominant culture that caters to your wishes, and your biases without you having done anything to earn that other than a white penis is "privilege." In order to be a safe and equitable society, your "normal" will have to change - and that is what makes you very, very uncomfortable, and scrambling for justifications for your angst, including lecturing others who know what the cost of white privilege actually is.

Is that clearer?

Now let us see a dismissive post and smilie from you - may I suggest:

[OnDoutside]

278. Lol, you should read your own post in losing the plot that someone questions your

outlandish cut and paste assertions

Forum : a meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.

[ehrnst]

281. I exploited your fragility, didn't I?

I'll try to be nicer next time, so you won't be so marginalised.



And at least I give credit from whence I'm copying. Do you even read the stuff you write?

[OnDoutside]

287. You're the best ! :) Yes, I do, it's reasonably well considered.

[ehrnst]

292. Good to see that you can listen to helpful advice. :)

I think upon a second look, you'll see what we are talking about.

You're welcome.

[ehrnst]

368. See - you get triggered when I cite something that reveals your privilege.

Last edited Thu May 31, 2018, 08:22 AM - Edit history (4)

You are the illustration of white fragility when shown your white privilege.

But by all means, continue to whitesplain away, if it helps you to sleep at night.

And keep on "cut&pasting" the most concise takedown of your entire rebuttal on this thread, in a sad effort to prove that I said something that I didn't. That's priceless.

And why don't you explain to us what triggers you about the phrase?

And if you actually read the original article that Effie posted, you'd see that it was written by... wait for it.... a 49 year old white man.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Scalzi

Same "credentials" you claim - "being on the outside" and all.

Now tell again us why we should believe you, instead of someone who lays out their case coherently, eloquently and with backup?

[OnDoutside]

370. Aw, poor ehrnst, weak deflection attempt

That was her phrase, not mine.

It was in a post where you posted the quote by Robin DiAngelo #252

"White people in North America live in a social environment that protects and insulates them from race-based stress. This insulated environment of racial protection builds white expectations for racial comfort while at the same time lowering the ability to tolerate racial stress, leading to what I refer to as White Fragility. White Fragility is a state in which even a minimum amount of racial stress becomes intolerable, triggering a range of defensive moves. These moves include the outward display of emotions such as anger, fear, and guilt, and behaviors such as argumentation, silence, and leaving the stress-inducing situation. These behaviors, in turn, function to reinstate white racial equilibrium."

Robin DiAngelo, Ph.D


Happy to help

[ehrnst]

373. Yes, your constant complaining about my "cut and paste"

Last edited Thu May 31, 2018, 08:46 AM - Edit history (2)

now seems to have reversed to it being "my words." Which you said was "accusing every man on this site" of what the quote said.

When one is desperate for a "win" one will invent one, I suppose.

But lace that bitch up and wear it, if it fits...

Happy to help.



I find it ironic that you now keep "cut&pasting" the very paragraph by a woman with an actual education on the topic, and actual credentials, that lays waste to the entire Gingrich-esque (American politician - google him), at times race-baiting, unsubstantiated, whitesplaining style of "debate" that you seem to be convinced makes one sound "authoritative," and "adult."

And after you get back to me on where Effie said "all white men," you can answer this for me: if "being on the outside" is credential enough for you to whitesplain to Effie, why isn't "being on the outside" credential enough for her to correct you concerning lack of self-awareness concerning White Privilege, and White Fragility?

[OnDoutside]

380. And it clearly it was my mistake that you

either believed or read what you were writing (or more accurately, cut&pasting!). Actually that became evident when searching for your use of that quote - what's with the number of edits on a number of your posts ? Seriously, there was one that you had edited a dozen or so times ! Who does that ?

[ehrnst]

383. Poor doutie...

Got caught with his pants down, and now is desperately trying to deflect...

First it was "COPY AND PASTE KING/QUEEN!!" And now you throw in, "OMG, WHO EDITS THEIR POSTS??!"

I statnd by my sources, but if you think that it's accusing you personally, let alone or "all white men on this site" that's your invention. You need to stand by that, instead of projecting your own generalized, stereotyping veiwpoints on everyone else.

Own that strawman! Wear that perfectly fitted, tasteful patent leather mid-heel!

[ehrnst]

377. Yes, but you accused me of "accusing every man on this site" of that

Please point out where your copy&paste shows that I "accused every man on this site" of that? And retract please.

Ok, I have to call you out on that pretty low ball lie. That's a poor reflection on you, to be fair.

Again, point out where I said that or retract please....

Don't be sad, doutie, having been exposed as having a hoard of strawmen that he deploys at the first sign someone shows up his argument, and keeps on copying&pasting in a desperate attempt to double down.

I'm very happy to be of service in that.

Now go eat your ice cream. The grownups are talking.

[OnDoutside]

384. Aw isn't that nice !

In an example of pure Trumpism, you accuse others of what others had accused you first ! Howya Donald !

As for your

Please point out where your copy&paste shows that I "accused every man on this site" of that? And retract please.

You do know it's up to you to find that post ? After all, I spent the time to refute your "white racial equilibrium".

The insecure grownups are talking.

Fixed that for ya !

[ehrnst]

385. Still doubling down...

Can't show where I accused every man on this site of that, and more deflection. Do you even read this stuff before posting ?
"Trumpism!" "Howya Donald" I guess you wore out "Turner-esque." Gotta dig WAY deeper to trigger, me, Honey. Just ask your buddies.

Project much? You are clearly young and haven't really gotten good at this, and REALLY haven't developed the sense to know when you are embarassing yourself.

There is no post where I accused every man on this site of that, you know that, and are dancing around like toddler that can't find a toilet.

But since you asked for a "copy&paste" here ya go:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=10673198

It is irrelevant, unless you are accusing all white men on this site of wanting to

"reinstate white racial equilibrium" as your cut and paste suggests ? If so, then it says more about you than the guy quoted. Do you even read this stuff before posting ?

There's more than one false dillema fallacy in there, an "if/then" ad hominem, PLUS a strawman, so that's a good thing for those out there playing White Fragility bingo.



But you seem to have found a fabulous sale full of shoes that fit! You're welcome. Now go think up another name to call someone you have a lot to learn from while you eat your ice cream.

[ck4829]

69. I've seen people talk liking a white ethnostate and 'joke' about committing genocide of Muslims

OP doesn't even come close to that, not even starting to come close to that, so the whole "until we are all dead" thing from the OP? I'm not sensing it.

[askyagerz]

75. See the 200 posts before that

I read lots of effies posts and she is right on the racist thing. But there is a pattern of demonizing white people and using the "white people" phrase that isnt right. Anyone on this forum would be crusified for sayong "black people" and then follow it up about how "they" suck. And it really isnt about me being white. This is just a general courtesy we need in the big tent party.
I know effie is one pretty smart cookie...

[irisblue]

77. dude? Where did you get that idea from the essay?

[cagefreesoylentgreen]

31. Another essay by John Scalzi

If you liked that bit of his writing, try The Cinemax Theory of Racism: https://whatever.scalzi.com/2016/11/10/the-cinemax-theory-of-racism/

The alt-right hates this guy, up to the point of deliberately plagiarizing the cover art and content of one of his books and adding alt-right talking points and repackaging it as “new” on Amazon. https://io9.gizmodo.com/amazon-pulls-castalia-house-book-for-ripping-off-john-s-1793533638

If the alt-right hates him, he must be doing something right!

[sweetloukillbot]

123. At a panel at Phx Comic Fest this week he shut down an alt-right troll

Guy asked him to comment on one of the Sad Puppies (alt-right sci-fi authors) getting banned from a convention. He pretty much said it's none of my business who Cons invite or don't invite, and that there are dozens of Cons he knows where he isn't welcome, simply by noting that they haven't instituted a sexual harassment policy.

[ck4829]

34. It really is... and this is coming from a straight white male

I am 100% certain that I would be on the street or dead if I was not a straight white male with the things I've done, bridges I've burned, etc.

[PatSeg]

35. Thank you posting this

It is very well written.

[Snotcicles]

37. Just wondering.

If tomorrow somehow all of our roles had always been the reverse what do you think would be different?

[bucolic_frolic]

38. No barriers to entry, tilted playing field

in other words, privilege without the snootiness of that term

[Ms. Toad]

82. Part of the problem with that is that it is not just barriers to entry and tilted playing field

that cause the problem.

Suggesting that removing those would solve the problem suggests that nothing that came before contributes to the ongoing disparity.

But you don't get black CEOs without a pool of black individuals at the level just below CEO and so on. Removing the barriers to entry might change the complexion in the executive suite 4 decades from now, but it will take that long for leveling the playing field today to get there.

[Adrahil]

41. Mostly right.

I grew up poor and by high school, some of my friends were quite wealthy. They definitely had life on easy mode (straight, white, male, and rich).

I had some challenges on that end (affording college, chief among them). But once I entered the Middle Class? I'll be honest... it Has been life on easy mode for the most part.

[Gothmog]

43. K&R

[forgotmylogin]

44. This was directly satirized in the video game "The Fractured But Whole".

[Upthevibe]

46. A quote that applies (mainly speaking about people

born with money but also relevant here)...“born on third base who thought he had hit a triple.”

[elias7]

50. Single white Christian male, perhaps?

As a Jew, I have dealt with anti-semitism and certain proscriptions not encountered by my WASP or catholic counterparts.

[mythology]

159. The problem with life is that's it not nearly as simple as some make it out to be

It's easy to say something as silly as like going through life on the easy setting and think it's witty. But you realize it's simplistic thinking when you learn to look a layer deeper to acknowledge that every person has their own life to live. Every one has their own battles. Whether it's being gay, being Jewish, being female, transgender, gay, bisexual, having a mental or physical illness, was just raped etc.

Do we really want to divide the world up into well my group suffered more, but ignore starving kids in Africa, ignore the Muslim Rohingya, or that somewhere in that group there's somebody who's transgender, has a mental illness, lost a foot in war and their dog just died. And yes, in theory their life sucks. But even in the worst situations, some people can find happiness. In the words of Moreese Bickham on spending 37.5 years in prison (14 in solitary confinement) for defending himself against racist cops “I don’t have one minute’s regret. It was a glorious experience.” If that guy can find the good, we can all look a little harder.

Yes it's important to understand how a larger group identity is incorporated within society, but that doesn't fit every member of that group the same way. Introverts tend to feel emotional pain more deeply for example. But if you said extroverts go through life in the U.S. (and yes much of our society is set up to the benefit of extroverts) on the easy setting, you probably wouldn't be taken seriously. Likewise, being pretty is a hell of a leg up in life for either gender. They get paid more and are less likely to go to prison. Notoriously there has been a favoritism shown to lighter skinned minorities.

If life is so easy being a white guy, why do white men lead in number of suicides? It's easy to say that too many black men get killed in interactions with police, because it's true. Using numbers from the link below about 287 black men were killed by police in 2017. Every year, there are about 44,965 suicides, of which 70% are white men, or about 31,475. But we don't talk about that. Because it involves thinking another level deeper. It involves realizing that people are individuals and have their own struggles that maybe you can't see just by looking at their skin color. Another poster in this thread talked about not worrying about being pulled over by the cops. Do they worry about their own statistical likelihood of suicide I wonder? It's a lot more likely than being the victim of any other gun violence.

https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/

https://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/

Like I said, it's simplistic thinking. It has the veneer of deeper thought and so it appeals, but it really doesn't stand up if you start looking at it critically.

[ariadne0614]

172. Okay, let's go deeper into the white male suicide issue.

Could it be that the negative impact of “the man box” extends beyond a system that “only” imposes hardship and oppression on those of us who are not heterosexual, white and male? Maybe the dehumanizing struggle to be “a real man” is driving some men to self-destructive, suicidal behavior.

Maybe heterosexual white men would benefit from helping the rest of us to disassemble the obsolete man box once and for all, before it’s too late. We could even use the components to construct a more habitable, harmonious, sustainable dwelling for us all (girlz allowed). https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/megasahd-man-box-the-link-between-emotional-suppression-and-male-violence/

[EffieBlack]

180. "If life is so easy being a white guy, why do white men lead in number of suicides?"

According to your source, whites commit suicide at rates higher than any other group. Does that mean that white lives are generally harder in America than anyone else’s? Of course not. According to the National Center of Health Statistics, men commit suicide at a rate of 3.6 times more than women. Does that prove women are more privileged than men in America? Of course not.

Suicide rates offer absolutely no proof of the existence or non-existence of privilege in a society.

[ehrnst]

181. On theory: there are many who expected to get what Dad had

And don't have the tools to deal with not getting it - the best paying jobs, the status of being primary breadwinner, deference from women and POC, the focus of media, seeing white men represented at all levels of power (especially POTUS) - being at the apex of the dominant culture, the default.

When you feel entitled to the things that privilege brings (consciously or not), and don't get them, it is a bigger blow than if you are in a group that does not expect privilege.

[dsc]

191. while males are way over represented in terms of suicide

whites aren't. Whites make up nearly 70% of the population (something like 67%) and make up about 70% of suicides. They are very slightly over represented. Now successful suicide is a male issue that is true but it isn't that white of one. And it most assuredly isn't a straight one (gays are way over represented).

[ehrnst]

318. Men use guns more than women, so they are more successful. (nt)

[ehrnst]

354. That's what I call simplistic thinking

Like when judges say that prison would be too hard on a white, wealthy male, but not on someone that "didn't have as much to lose" would.

It would be too inhumane to put a "successful white guy" into prison, because he would "suffer" more by comparison, and that justifies giving them parole instead of hard time. A less affluent black man would have it "easier," right?

But it really doesn't stand up if you start looking at it critically.

[GitRDun]

51. You made me laugh out loud!

There's really 2 SWM settings.

I'm in the easier class; older.

Keep 'em coming!

[MrScorpio]

58. One of my favorite essays to read

Thanks for bringing it back

[hueymahl]

60. Great post

And great analogy. Never read Scalzi before - appreciate the introduction.

[Tom Rinaldo]

63. Absolutely true, but there are also overlapping grids

Religion and class are examples of those. In some places at some times a straight white male Jew may not start out with the lowest difficulty setting relative to Christians who are not straight and/or white and/or male. In Northern Ireland, leading up to and including "The Troubles", a lesbian white female Protestant might have started out with a lower difficulty setting than a typical straight white male Catholic. A straight white male born in a poor off the grid hollow in Appalachia might overall start out with a higher difficulty setting than a straight black male born to an upper class family in a "University town". The salient difference regarding race though must always be acknowledged. A "poor" man might be able to "clean up" and don garbs sufficient to pass for being upper middle class. A white Catholic stranger at a train depot in Northern Ireland may not be immediately recognizable as not being Protestant. Anyone though with sufficient skin pigment will always be viewed instantaneously by all as non white.

I don't mention this merely to be contrary, because I fully accept the premise of this OP as true. There are practical applications to fighting discrimination in understanding how and where these overlapping grids function though. Class variables offer a good historic reference. In circumstances when ruling economic interests achieve overwhelming dominance over those who labor for a living, and class inequalities are extreme to the point where a high proportion of people must struggle to literally survive, organized labor sometimes managed to forge coalitions of laborers across racial and gender lines. And while those almost invariably began as narrow tactical alliances, common struggle has at times broken down those divisions and began to dissolve underlying racist and sexist attitudes among those fighting for a common cause.

By way of explanation I should add that I am now in the midst of reading the autobiography of "Big Bill Hayward", a founding member and leader of the Industrial Workers of the World. He was a great man who instinctively fought against all racism, with some considerable success, due to his vision of common humanity reinforced on a daily basis by the harsh inequities he confronted.

[sweetloukillbot]

85. Scalzi is great

I saw him at a comic convention this weekend in conversation with Cory Doctorow, which they called "Two White Men talking about politics, covering the political spectrum from Radical Leftist to Flaming Liberal."
They discussed a lot about privilege and how it is changing - Doctorow said "Because people who don't look like us are sick of putting up with our shit."
They also offered reading recommendations for sci-fi fans who wanted different perspectives, like NK Jemisin.
My favorite part, however, was when it came time for Q&A, Scalzi said (and he did this at every other panel he was on), I want to hear from other voices, so the first person who asks a question should be a woman, then I'll ask a man. He also said that any LGBTQ or POC could immediately come to the front of the Q&A line.

[bitterross]

86. A follow up to that article

Somehow, someone thought it was a good idea to post that on a gamer site. Not sure who thought dropping that into the hotbed of basement-dwelling, privileged, straight, white men, almost all of whom are misogynists was a good idea. Yes, I'm generalizing, but if you go read the comments section then you will no longer wish to alert on this post for generalizing.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-gamer-comments-that-give-straight-white-guys-bad-name/

[sweetloukillbot]

124. After Gamergate though, Kotaku is considered poison by the alt-right gaming community

And this article was published right around the start of Gamergate, I think.

[DonCoquixote]

91. Molly Ivins said of Bush

He started on third base, and thought he hit a triple."


Now, as someone (Hispanic) of one of the "marginalized identities" I know that being Puerto Rican, while it can get you a LOT of bulllshit, is not the same as being Black, because black is the "hardest setting" of the game. The country is built to think of Blacks in the worst way.

Yes, there was a time the Irish were considered scum, but since they had white skin and spoke English, they were allowed up the ladder, to where a Sean hannity or Bill O Reilly hobsnobs with people who grandfathers would have hung them next to the "strange fruit." That avenue was never opened to Black people.

All the same, while I cannnot see things the way a AfAm can see them, I can see enough to see blood on the hands of the white man, and know that they will gladly add my body to the furnace. Sadly, that does include roughly 55% of White Women too, if the 2016 election polls are correct.

[Gothmog]

223. Molly Ivins was a saint and a great lady

That is a very appropriate quote about W

[thucythucy]

94. Thanks again Effie.

I always looking forward to seeing your posts. I can always count on seeing something precisely expressed that I've been groping to say for ages. Plus there's so often a great link to boot.

You are a true resource. Thanks again.

[EffieBlack]

95. Thanks! That's really sweet of you to say.

[thucythucy]

103. I've often thought it

when I read your posts--so I wanted to say it out loud, as it were.

This OP is just such a perfect example. Plus, the posts in response are also a great read.

Thanks again.

[egduj]

96. Oh, well.

K/R because I choose not to be a victim.

[Alea]

98. What's with the numerous white people bashing post on DU lately?

IF, this place represented the Democratic Party there wouldn't be many white democrats left to vote with us. I'm not white or black and don't really have a dog in this fight, but if I were white I think I'd be telling some people to f straight off lol.

[EffieBlack]

99. I don't know. Link me to some of the numerous "white people bashing posts" and I'll read them

and let you know what I think.

[Alea]

101. No need to link, just re-read most of your own post

[EffieBlack]

102. Oh, you were trying to be clever - I get it!

Show me where in my post I engage in any "white people bashing.""

Please be specific.

[Jamaal510]

167. +1

[catrose]

107. Her post quotes a cis straight white man

He’s not self-flagellating.

[johnp3907]

113. One post is "numerous?"

[Alea]

122. By numerous, I was referring to all of these type post, not 1 author.

Several people seem to be doing it a lot. To me they just seem like bash white people post.

[EffieBlack]

137. Still waiting for some specific examples.

Any time, now ...

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

109. I'm white. I'm so white I'm almost transparent. And I agree with EffieBlack.

I do not feel bashed in the least. It's about damn time some of us recognized our privilege.

[True Dough]

127. I'm not quite as white as you, Casper! ;)

But I don't question my privilege either.

[Iggo]

125. Aw.

[pnwmom]

152. The OP wasn't bashing white people. What made you think it was? n/t

[Tipperary]

185. It is really not so much bashing, except for daily lecturing as though none of us are Democrats.

I never ever ignored any posters on this board, but two will be the first. Seems to b a never ending campaign for them. No one would be able to post such race-baiting nonsense if it was targeted at another race.

This is ugly and is making du suck.

[ariadne0614]

188. Can you find it in your heart to consider

how tiresome it is for those of us who are not SWM to remain stoically silent after spending every waking moment of our lives in a system designed (without our input) to oppress and dehumanize us? The system has been imposed for millennia, and may seem to be the natural order to those who benefit from the status quo, but the rest of us are pretty sick of it. Please try to understand when we express our impatience in ways that cause you unaccustomed discomfort.

[ChubbyStar]

225. I'm sure Skinner and Earl G would stop "daily lecturing" if they believed it made DU suck

Have you contacted them with your concerns?

[Caliman73]

336. "Race bating" - a wonderful phrase used to deflect from any consideration of racial inequality.

There are levels of privilege. I am an educated middle class man who happens to be a person of color. My being male is a privilege that allows me to not have to consider many things in life that women have to consistently be preoccupied with. My education allows me to access things that people without the opportunities that I had to achieve my level of education cannot. I am, for the most part, able bodied. Etc..etc.... I can acknowledge that being born a man, to a middle class family, with the opportunities and expectations of obtaining a higher education; gave me advantages that I did not earn all by myself. It does not make me a bad person and it does not diminish my work and accomplishments. What it does to is make me have to consider that other people did not have the advantages that I had, and I have to consider that in my evaluation of their situation rather than attributing anything to their gender, race, etc...

The reason you do not see the idea of privilege targeted at any other "race" is because historically, "White" people (I still do not know exactly what that is other than NOT OF COLOR) have for much of the last 500 to 600 years, had legal, social, and economic dominance pretty much world wide. People of Color generally do not have privilege based on their race or skin color. They may certainly have privilege based on their gender (male), socioeconomic status, education level, physical abilities, and other aspects, but not in the way that White people typically have. That does not mean that White people have an easy life or that they cannot be at greater disadvantages in some or many ways than people of color. It just means that historically, being born White has been an automatic and fairly powerful advantage in current society when considered against people of color.

It is certainly an uncomfortable topic, especially if you load all of the emotional baggage into it instead of trying to understand it as a request to be more aware of the experiences of other people.

[EffieBlack]

353. Excellent post: - this would be a great OP.

[pampango]

104. True but when your dad, uncles, grandfather, etc. benefited from

from the “lowest difficulty setting”, it is hard to adjust to a ‘new reality’ in which you don’t have the advantages that seemed ‘natural’ a generation ago.

[EffieBlack]

105. And it feels as if something is being taken away from you and, therefore, you are a victim.

[pampango]

106. Yep. There is 'objective' victimhood' and a subjective version that

is also quite powerful.

[dawg]

110. I think some men get upset because they confuse "lowest difficulty setting" with "easy".

I have no doubt at all that I'm playing on the lowest difficulty setting.

That being said, it's still a massively hard game to play. (And a little bad luck here and there can make big losers out of any of us.)

[BeyondGeography]

116. Yup

Life is sad
Life is a bust
All ya can do is do what you must
You do what you must do and ya do it well

-Bob Dylan (another low degree of difficulty guy), Buckets of Rain

[uponit7771]

135. +1

[NickB79]

114. South Park did it!

http://www.indiewire.com/2017/09/south-park-video-game-black-character-difficulty-1201873967/

South Park’ Video Game Forces You to Play as a Black Character Based on the Difficulty Setting
The new "South Park" video game includes some brilliant and scathing social commentary. We wouldn't expect it any other way.

[Victor_c3]

115. To make it even easier, use the "good looking", "smart", and came from a "good family" cheat

good looks and a little bit of brains goes a long ways too. Coming from a "good family" means that you most likely do pretty decent in school and have no problems getting a degree from a decent college.

[mokawanis]

119. I knew this thread was gonna be lively!

and filled to the brim with folks patting themselves on the back! lol

[BannonsLiver]

133. That was my takeaway as well

Lots of people trying too hard. It’s funny to observe, though.

[fescuerescue]

130. I think we need more definitions

I think I've read less than 10 this week and that's way to few.

[EffieBlack]

141. Apparently, we do. But we'll keep trying until people finally get it.

[Rilgin]

146. Please consider

I have read a number of your posts. One of which in particular urged people posting to consider their audience. I am not trying to discuss the substance of your post particularly but one aspect related to communicating these issues.

I would refer you to the opening line of the quoted article. It starts by saying "explain to straight white men how life works for them".

Please consider if there is always a problem if you try to explain someone to themselves; especially if they do not know them individually. This concept should be pretty easy to understand, it is the basis of the allegation that someone is whitesplaining or mansplaining. It occurs all the time between individuals.

Explaining to someone else how life works for them rather than either asking them how life works for them or explaining how life works for oneself always comes off as a lecture whether its accurate or not.

No one is an expert or the authority of someone else's life experience and people always resent someone else trying to define them. All people, of all races, genders and sexual preference, do not like to be explained to by people who do not know them individually on the basis of generalizations. Communication always works best if you ask someone about themselves or tell someone else about yourself. Hopefully you do not disagree with this.

Please consider this. Perhaps, it explains why all posts explaining white people to a white person or POC to a person of color ends up in bad feelings and conflict among some posters. It might be better to not explain racial issues and discrimination that affect an individual or group by trying to define those problems in terms of other people who are not affected.

Identifying racial problems as discrimination against a group or individuals with a specific characteristic was the broad based rallying basis of the civil rights movement in the 60's and 70's. This effort was generally supported by all liberal and thinking people and helped identify some specific things that need to be changed. These efforts may not have solved all the issues and as a country we may have backslid (the election of Trump is good evidence), in the fight for social equality. However, please consider if it might be a better tactic going forward to not "explain" to any group or individual who is not your friend, wife, husband, boss, counselor or lover, how their life works if the goal is to discuss how another group or individual has a societal problem.

[EffieBlack]

147. You've completely misunderstood the point and even the plain words of the quoted piece in the OP

Instead, you focused on the first sentence and then ignored the rest of the piece, which clearly puts into context exactly what the author is trying to do, which bears no resemblance to your assumption of what it is.

It is very clear that "explain to straight white men how life works for them" does not mean explaining white men's lives to them in any individual sense but is an attempt to illustrate how their privilege works for them in the world vis-a-vis other people without using the word "privilege" - something that many of them clearly don't see. This isn't about straight white men's lives in a vacuum but how the externalized privilege that straight white men enjoy in this country compares with and often affects the lives of other people. This can ONLY be addressed within an external context, so discussing it and explaining to those who don't get it is absolutely necessary if someone is to understand how it works who hasn't figured it out by now.

But, thank you for explaining to me, a perfect stranger, why I should not attempt to explain white privilege to perfect strangers.

[Rilgin]

153. lol

Nice. I did not address the article itself but the exact words of that article found in the opening sentence. And it is my point -- not your point -- that this is already a problematic communication.

And I see you did get it since you took offense in your last line to me you took offense at me, a perfect stranger, trying to say something about you. Try to give others the same courtesy. I do not need nor should you be concerned about explaining ANYTHING to ME about MY life struggles. Talk about your own and you are on solid ground in actually communicating with others.

But my guess, is that you do not have communication as a purpose but want to be "a perfect stranger" analyzing others lives.

[EffieBlack]

155. I didn't "take offense" - merely noting the hypocrisy of you explaining to a perfect stranger

why she should not explain things to perfect strangers.

But your objection to my approach is duly noted.

[Rilgin]

169. Once again

One of the features of a message board is to explain your thoughts to perfect strangers. My post which I asked (emphasis asked) you to consider is that generally communications between perfect strangers work better when you talk about yourself not about the other person or their life experiences.

When I suggested that to you, I was not saying anything about you or your life experiences. Explaining to someone else something about how their life works is about them, how they feel, how they are supposed to feel or anything about their life is tricky. Usually, I tend to only even try to have such talks with my wife or close friends, not random strangers. It is different then discussing ideas or communication methods. That is some difference. Of course I suspect you know the difference between talking about someone else to explain how their life works and talking about communication.

[OnDoutside]

177. +1

[tonedevil]

209. In my experience with white people...

they don't get that they are privileged so they don't understand how it affects them and others. Your idea of only having this sort of conversation in private is exactly what has allowed the problem to fester.

[Rilgin]

235. Perhaps you are illustrating my point

You state that in your conversations with white people, they do not understand your point. Perhaps it is exactly what I am saying. If you try to explain to a stranger something about them, it can lead to miscommunication. When you state something about a stranger that has any adverse connotations, it can lead to defensiveness and adversely affect the communication. It also assumes that they do not understand themselves and you do without even knowing them which is also offputting to good communications.

I was not stating to only have conversations about race in private. I am suggesting that if you want to discuss a societal problem with a stranger, it might increase understanding if you do not lead with or explain something about them, their character, their feelings, their life. It might be better to explain something about yourself or ask (emphasis added) something about them so you can understand their life.

[tonedevil]

237. I am saying white people in general...

do not recognize they are the recipients of privilege and in fact deny such a thing exists. As a result they have no way of seeing the harm in their privilege. The time has come for the message to be expressed and white fragility needs to get over its self.

[Rilgin]

238. Pretty much done

Thank you for your communications. At least they were personally civil and I appreciate that you at least said "in your experience" which at least refers to your experience. However, you do not question at all if your experience of not being able to communicate is due to a problem with your communication method or a problem with the white people who you think do not get your point.

In any event, good luck in the future is communicating to white people that they are fragile as well as privileged . I am pretty sure that our communication is going nowhere because again you are labeling people and I am shutting off because of the labeling and the underlying presumption in a claim that your knowledge of others is superior to their experience of themselves.

My guess is on your part, you will share my view that this conversation will go nowhere but will identify the problem as me being a fragile white person who does not get your point.

Again, good luck in your future communications.

[tonedevil]

240. The really amazing thing about how hard...

I find communicating to white people is that I am one. You are quite correct I do see you as a fragile white person. The kind of white person that makes me ashamed that people call me white.

[Rilgin]

243. I am so sorry.

I feel absolutely miserable that simply conversing with me has caused you to be ashamed of yourself. I did not realize that I was conversing with someone so fragile. I take back everything I said and again wish you well in your future conversations with people and hope they do not make you feel ashamed of yourself.

I do wish we could have ended on a more civil note rather than ending with another insult, in this case calling each other fragile. But that is life on an internet message board.

[tonedevil]

245. What do you suppose you are taking back?

Are you saying you now realize that white fragility is one of the most significant causes of "race" problems in the US? Are you taking back that it is wrong to publicly say that white people are playing the game on easy mode? I get no sense of sincerity in your apology nor even an understanding of what you are apologizing for. Just seems like a game to me.

[OnDoutside]

269. Lol, +1

Spot on post.

[catrose]

154. Effie has cited an excerpt from a John Scalzi essay

John is a cis white male. He grew up poor. He could be called successful/rich now. He writes science fiction books (after years at AOL) and recently received a million-dollar contract.

He might have some reason to think he understands how life works for cis white males. He has a wife and daughter; that might go far to explain why he cares.

Some of us have endured a lifetime of other people explaining how life works, whether we are female, poc, disabled, or other kind of other.

[Rilgin]

170. And I would have the same thing to say to anyone explaining to you how your life works

You say "Some of us have endured a lifetime of other people explaining how life works, whether we are female, poc, disabled, or other kind of other."

I assume you didn't like it when other people explained to you how your life works. This is exactly my point. No one regardless of gender, race, sexual preference or non-preference likes other people who do not know them defining them or trying to explain their life to them. It does not matter the race, gender or preference of the Explainer if they do not know you individually.

Asking others about their life or explaining your own life and struggles leads to much less tension and much better communication. Starting with a goal of explaining something to someone else about their life is almost an impossibility if your goal is to actually reach understanding with strangers and is not to just cause uncomfortably or cause a flame war.

[EffieBlack]

149. Which, in large part, could explain the freakout.

[nolabels]

150. When is a rock a rock and please watch the leopard change it's spots

Yea, my life is easy.

[Blue Owl]

160. The Straight White Dope

n/t

[SidDithers]

174. Welcome to DU...

Sid

[TexasTowelie]

175. +1

[betsuni]

176. That was amusing.

[EffieBlack]

183. Aw, man. I missed it!

Bummer.

[betsuni]

186. It was great: I, straight white male, I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

Tidbits: Every time I see one of your threads about race, I can't help but think how miserable it must be to be you, seething with envy and burning with hatred, self-loathing and self-pity, dark and negative soul, offending and hurting other people (you revel in it!), miserable and hurtful ... yada, yada, yada: YOU NEED CHRIST IN YOUR LIFE.

Woo hoo!

[IronLionZion]

192. I wish we had a trading spaces type of situation here

I'd love to see which white people of either gender would like to trade places with a brown or black person and see how long they last.

That would be better to watch than anything on Netflix or HBO

Hell I'd do it and see if the grass is greener or not. Maybe whites don't have it as great as I may imagine? There's only one way to find out for sure.

[nolabels]

193. There is no way to tear down walls and build bridges at the same time

Mostly I can only give anecdotal experience to the discussion. As one of minority white folk in my neighborhood and at my workplace I can mostly only see the wide differences between people and that race is only a part as much as people chose it to be.

[IronLionZion]

195. We could tear down walls and recycle that material into bridges

I get what you're saying about your experience. But some people have power to enforce laws and policies and stereotypes and hiring decisions and sentencing, while others don't have that power. So that's one big difference where individuals may have good intentions while still perpetuating a system that benefits some people over others, while not even realizing it.

As someone who has perpetually been the token US citizen in jobs with hundreds of foreign workers on visas, I had a very different anecdotal experience.

[nolabels]

200. The god of Shiva is in your sight

Though most of us know what we have are barriers created and maintained by those who benefit. I would only believe these are not natural barriers or ones that can be maintained for long when the numbers are flipped.

No doubt our unequal system is terrible but you must also realize it's used against all sides but in just different ways to perpetuate it. I would say in ways it's more ugly then it's ever been.

Many things in life that have metaphors

Shiva
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiva

[NewJeffCT]

227. I'd add "wealthy" to the description as well

poor & working class straight white men have it harder than wealthy straight white men.

As a straight white male, I certainly know that I've had it easier than most - I'm not going to get pulled over for "driving while white" and never had to worry about store security following me in any sort of retail establishment, and countless other things great and small that I've probably missed over the years.

[SonofDonald]

239. Bering Sea Crab Fisherman 1981-1989

Heavy construction and heavy equipment mechanic all the rest of my life.

I've been stabbed, shot at, beat up, motorcycle wrecks, shattered a leg at work.

Left knee already after three operations and both hips being replaced this winter.

Right leg 1/2 inch shorter than the left and foot rotated 20 degrees out from normal.

Spinal stenosis the entire length of my back.

Nearly five feet of scars so far with more to come.

I wake up in pain every day.

So, what's "Easy" or priveledged about that?.

Not one fucking thing.

It isn't a color that matters.

Its the attitude that does.

[EffieBlack]

241. I'm sorry your life has been so difficult

But you're misunderstanding the discussion.

White privilege doesn't mean your life is easy or without problems. It means that, all other things being equal, you don't face the additional obstacles that a black person in the same situation as you must face. It means that your race does not add an another layer of complications and problems on you. It means that it is unlikely that you would willingly trade places with a black person who, in all other respect but their race, is exactly like you.

Recognizing that does not, in any way, suggest that people don't understand or empathize with your situation. I certainly do. I'm glad you're willing to engage in this conversation and present your perspective and hope you are also open to considering the perspective of those of us who are trying to help people better understand what white privilege is and how it works in America.

[fescuerescue]

246. I think there are lots of other difficulty settings

In fact there is lots of privilege. Fame privilege, politician privilege, citizenship privilege, intelligence privilege, height privilege, wealth privilege, charisma privilege, beauty privilege, athlete privilege, health privilege,... I could go on and on.

Lots of those are much easier and confer greater advantage than simply being "white".

I see folks around me all the time that enjoy those and multiple privileges. What I am supposed to do about it? I suppose I could be envious, wring my hands, and make multiple posts on internet chat boards, about how unfair it is, that I'm not white, athletic, charismatic and not born to to wealthy parents. But I don't think it would accomplish anything.

Instead, I choose to live my each day making the best choices I can, and not be jealous of those born in better circumstances. So far, it has served me well.

[blake2012]

268. Unless that straight white male has low education and is in poverty

That’s a pretty damn hard setting.

[EffieBlack]

284. That straight white male is likely to do better than a poor low educated straight black male

For example:

White High School Drop-Outs Are As Likely To Land Jobs As Black College Students

African-Americans college students are about as likely to get hired as whites who have dropped out of high school. So says a new report from a non-profit called Young Invincibles, which analyzed data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics and the U.S. Census and examined the effect race and education levels have on unemployment. “We were startled to see just how much more education young African-Americans must get in order to have the same chance at landing a job as their white peers,” said Rory O’Sullivan, deputy director of Young Invincibles, in a statement.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2014/06/27/white-high-school-drop-outs-are-as-likely-to-land-jobs-as-black-college-students/

A black man with a college degree is as likely to be working as a white college dropout

A new study suggests that young black men need two more levels of education to achieve the same employment levels as young white men. Black men age 18 to 34 with some college have roughly the same chance of being employed as white non-Hispanic men who didn't graduate from high school, according to a new analysis of Census data.


https://www.vox.com/2014/6/26/5845468/a-black-man-with-a-college-degree-is-as-likely-to-be-working-as-a

That’s the point. White people have an advantage over similarly-situated black people, solely because of their white skin.

[Bok_Tukalo]

303. So if you are a straight white male and not successful, you must really be terrible at this game.

<POE>

[EffieBlack]

306. Perhaps

But this isn’t about whether or not a particular individual is “successful” (whatever that means). It’s about the fact that white people, solely by virtue of being white, are likely to have privileges in this society that black people aren’t likely to have.

A white person’s failure to succeed can be based on a variety of factors, some of their own making and some beyond their control. But that doesn’t mean that white privilege doesn’t exist

[Bok_Tukalo]

313. I was addressing the metaphor and its implications

<OPE>

[EffieBlack]

314. So let me be specific to the metaphor

Perhaps.

But this isn’t about whether or not a particular individual is “successful” in this game (whatever that means - winning?high score?). It’s about the fact that white men, solely by virtue of being white, have an advantage in the game that people of color don’t have.

A white person’s failure to succeed in the game can be based on a variety of factors, some of their own making and some beyond their control. But that doesn’t mean that white privilege doesn’t rig the game in their favor.

[tazkcmo]

305. Thus Straight White Male

Thinks this is an excellent analogy. I have been aware of my privledge since grade school (This was 1968 to 1972, then they moved) because I was best friend of a mixed race boy and saw first hand the difference in treatment we received from people. It depressed me and made me angry that Mark was treated poorly just because of the color of his skin while I was treated much better due to mine.


Well done.

[EffieBlack]

307. According to some folks here, the disparity you witnessed was imaginary and/or meaningless

[tazkcmo]

308. F them.

Really, they are a dying breed.

[Tom Rinaldo]

316. Perhaps "White Advantage" might seem less charged to some than "White Privilege"

Same goes for "Male Advantage" or Straight Advantage".

It is, overall, an advantage to be white in our (and many other) societies. Of course there are exceptions that do not disprove the rule. In some instances an institution that embraces "affirmative action" might factor in darker skin color positively while making a close call - but that hardly is representative of how most social decisions are made in our society. Or maybe for whatever reason a given white is interacting with a group, a store, a club, whatever that tends to lean ethnocentric black. In isolated examples like that it might not be an advantage to be white, but it is much rarer for a white person to experience near constant diffuse hostility because of the color of his/her skin than it is for a black person.

I personally don't object to the term "White Privilege"etc. There have been and continue to be literal privileges associated with being white, or male, or straight. Privileges like being able to take any seat on a bus, or being able to belong to some Golf Clubs where major deals are sealed, or being able to marry the person you love. Those were all sanctioned privileges reserved for only some members of our society.

But I also understand that the word privilege carries a strong emotional charge that can convey concepts like pampered, elites, aristocracy, ruling class etc. that many of those who start out life with one of the advantages we are talking about do not relate to as applying to them (often with understandable cause). Emotionally the word privileged often equates with success. It would be interesting to hear the responses if the word "privilege" was inserted into a quiz of rapid fire word associations. The word advantage is more neutral. If a person gets more time to practice, that person has an advantage. If a person has the best gear for a sporting activity, that person has an advantage. Starting with an advantage does not guarantee success, there are so many factors at work effecting individual lives. Having a specific birth advantage does not mean in practice that one has a consistent overall advantage in life over everyone who did not start life with that advantage.

But everyone immediately gets that starting out with an advantage is desirable and by definition experienced only for some.

[ehrnst]

320. White fragility is what makes the term white privilege "emotionally charged" for many white people

"White Fragility is a state in which even a minimum amount of racial stress becomes intolerable, triggering a range of defensive moves. These moves include the outward display of emotions such as anger, fear, and guilt, and behaviors such as argumentation, silence, and leaving the stress-inducing situation."

[Tom Rinaldo]

332. OK. Sure

It's a valid concept and the terminology is not unfair. But it fits into the same point I was making above. If the point is to accurately describe a behavioral pattern, it works fine. But when instead the point is to promote a dialogue that can lead to positive changes, then the need shifts more toward defusing the "White Fragility" that invariably short circuits the chances of such a dialogue succeeding.

Maybe it shouldn't be that way, but "Fragility" is another word that carries a broad negative charge when used in other contexts unrelated to privilege/advantages. It implies something on the verge of shattering. Again there's some truth in that at times in regards to egos. Talking with you I find terms like white privilege and white fragility constructive in communicating. But a phrase like "White Angst" instead might be less likely to trigger off "White Fragility" in those who are afflicted by it. That of course only matters when you want to "reach them".

[TCJ70]

329. Much of the verbiage around privilege conversations is the problem for some...

...it's not a privilige to not be profiled in a store. It's not a privilege to not to pulled over for no reason. (fill in whatever other example you want here)

It's really the standard everyone should be operating at regardless of skin color. Too often the language surrounding privilege is used to tear down others, rather than get everyone to the same level. The phrase "check your privilege" for example bothers me the most since it's just a bludgeon used against someone else. It's only purpose is to shut someone down.

[Gothmog]

340. As Effie knows, the law is a great example of this

Straight white males have a leg up in some aspects of the law. Even now, most biglaw firms have few female or non-white partners.

One of my former partners experience this. He won nationals in Mock Trial at the Univ. of Texas and was the top of his class. Because he is Jewish the big law firms would not hire him. The big law firms did not start hiring Jews until five or six years law. One of my other former law partners and a guy names Steve Susman (one of the top trial attorneys in the country) were the first two Jews hired by Fulbright.

[Kaleva]

375. There is no advantage to being a straight white male in white dominated area.

[EffieBlack]

376. Ummm ...

Ok.

[gollygee]

379. Is there some kind of typo here?

I don't even know what typo would make this make sense. What are you trying to say?