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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSanders gets best reception at early 2020 audition
Sanders gets best reception at early 2020 audition
http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/392186-sanders-gets-best-reception-at-early-2020-audition
Democratic presidential hopefuls embraced their partys left flank during a presidential cattle call in the nations capital on Wednesday.
More than a thousand energetic attendees gathered at the We the People Summit to hear from some top potential 2020 contenders: Sens. Cory Booker (D-N.J.), Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.), Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.), Kirsten Gillibrand (D-N.Y.) and Kamala Harris (D-Calif.). But it was Sanders who won the most applause from the crowd of progressive and labor activists.
All of the possible 2020 candidates struck a liberal message, touting the need for universal health care as well as protecting and expanding Social Security and Medicare. But the lawmakers also made calculated decisions about what issues to emphasize as they look to build up their support among the partys activist base.
The energy in the room was palpable throughout the entirety of Sanderss speech. He received multiple standing ovations, and Bernie! cheers broke out when he walked on and off the stage.
Democratic presidential hopefuls embraced their partys left flank during a presidential cattle call in the nations capital on Wednesday.
stonecutter357
(12,697 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Bernie!
George II
(67,782 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Oh, right.
To Mr. Nader and his supporters, those crowds are clear evidence that his campaign has finally gained steam, building a movement of disaffected voters -- one might call them angry white liberals -- that will put the Green Party on the political map.
............................................................
Though a funny man in private, Mr. Nader, 66, makes little effort to indulge in the small gestures of politicking, like mingling with supporters or making small talk with voters. Neither does he try to soften his sometimes sharp-edged manner or warm up his cool, intellectual demeanor in quest of votes.
Mr. Nader rarely takes time to work the crowds. Asked why, he replied: ''Bishops do that. This is deliberative democracy.''
https://www.nytimes.com/2000/09/24/us/the-2000-campaign-the-green-party-nader-fades-in-polls-but-draws-crowds.html
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Look at all those people for McGovern! For Mondale! For Dukakis! For Romney!
And they all lost and three of them lost badly; two (McGovern and Mondale) each lost 49 states.
https://www.quora.com/Why-does-Trump-win-in-every-visual-poll-but-lose-in-the-scientific-ones
And some campaigns make it a point to hold rallies near or on universities, where many more have the time and the energy to attend and really send up those cheers that are so gratifying for the candidate's self image, especially one who has used the focus group tested phrase "free college" as opposed to "debt free college."
That's really hard to walk away from, as we've seen.
George II
(67,782 posts)mythology
(9,527 posts)Somebody should have told Obama that those campaign events were a waste of time because somebody you don't like did it too. Are you really so desperate to diminish Sanders that you think this criticism isn't silly?
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)I said that big crowds don't "necessarily" indicate a large turnout at the polls. I didn't claim the inverse.
Are you so desperate to quash any observations concerning Sanders that aren't praise that you would resort to misrepresenting someone's statements in order to be able to argue with them?
AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)... if "observations ... that aren't praise" equates to mocking his popularity, but it doesn't so you can drop the pretense.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Is that clearer?
pangaia
(24,324 posts)progressoid
(49,991 posts)Hmmm...
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Hmmm...
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)Yes, we know, Bernie is not a Democrat.
Power 2 the People
(2,437 posts)Ditto
dae
(3,396 posts)I love Bernie and what he stands for.
KPN
(15,646 posts)One can only hope, dream, etc.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"Bernie is not a Democrat..."
Nor is he a sacred cow, in which any negative criticism of his policy or position is labeled as 'bashing,' and discussions of those same called 'divisive.'
Thanks our stars that rarely, if ever happens.
And he still has my full support.
njhoneybadger
(3,910 posts)Wednesdays
(17,380 posts)SamKnause
(13,108 posts)InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)love, love, love him!
CentralMass
(15,265 posts)CentralMass
(15,265 posts)Cha
(297,323 posts)Tarc
(10,476 posts)InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)Go Bernie!!
Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Response to InAbLuEsTaTe (Reply #17)
Post removed
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)Tarc
(10,476 posts)We need a little diversity and youthful energy, not looking to the past.
awesomerwb1
(4,268 posts)Yawn
oberliner
(58,724 posts)https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jun/13/democratic-2020-hopefuls-progressive-conference-we-the-people
Response to oberliner (Reply #10)
Hassin Bin Sober This message was self-deleted by its author.
grantcart
(53,061 posts)lunamagica
(9,967 posts)Gothmog
(145,321 posts)I am glad that he got the most applause
Schedule
(29 posts)Biden is beating him in all polls matching them up (Biden wasn't present in this event, by the way).
KPN
(15,646 posts)Garrett78
(10,721 posts)The race was essentially over by the 2nd week of March 2016. Clinton had it wrapped up after Super Tuesday.
Events such as this one in DC, like caucuses and straw polls (Ron Paul famously did great in Republican straw polls), are notorious for not being representative samples. Plus, at this early stage, the advantage naturally goes to those with the most name recognition.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)when he talks about his performance in the primaries.
Same reason Trump talks about the Electoral College rather than vote counts.
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Garrett78
(10,721 posts)...they want Sanders to be the 2020 nominee so badly that they're in denial. Or they're clinging to the notion that a crowded field will open the door for him, but the field won't be crowded for very long.
Sanders does not have nearly enough support among the base.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)It also fuels Trump supporters.
Gothmog
(145,321 posts)Garrett78
(10,721 posts)...I doubt there's enough cross-over voting to substantially alter the results (especially with Democrats, thankfully, not having winner-take-all primaries). So, I don't lose any sleep over open primaries. Some Sanders supporters seem to think he dominated the open primaries, but Clinton won more open primaries than Sanders did.
Caucuses, though, are flat-out wrong. There are so many people who simply will not or cannot take part in such long and very public voting events.
Something else I don't like is starting with 2 states that aren't the least bit representative of our electorate. IA and NH hold way too much sway.
Orsino
(37,428 posts)Sure, it looked for about a week as though Sander had a small chance of catching up to Clinton, but the real enthusiasm lay elsewhere.
In 2018, I don't see disenchantment with Democratic corporatism as a big target for voters, or any other reason to believe Bern would get any more traction.
And he's not a Democrat anymore.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Orsino
(37,428 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)"He supports this bill because it provides relief for small community banks and credit unions in Virginia, helps prevent further harmful consolidation in the banking industry, and strengthens consumer protections for all Americans.
How is this "corporatism?"
I mean the flat earthers talk about "Darwinism," like that's a thing.
There's plenty of space, so please clarify your definition of "corporatism," as applied to Democrats.
Orsino
(37,428 posts)And just possibly in exchange for campaign donations: https://www.opensecrets.org/members-of-congress/summary?cid=N00033177
But if Kaine was right to do so, why were most of his Democratic colleagues so wrong to vote the other way?
Every politician has an excuse for compromise, and most Democrats will excuse this behavior by other Democrats, and most of us will continue to vote for Democrats anyway, because where else are we gonna go? Kaine is still one of the good guys IMO, but I will not excuse this obvious quid pro quo.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Is that what you are saying?
And if a majority support it, it's right?
Is that the only example you have of what you refer to as "corporatism" on the part of Democrats (since you seem to be unable to give an actual definition...)?
Orsino
(37,428 posts)...why do most Dems agree it'll be bad for elsewhere? And why did the GoP want it?
Weakening Dodd-Frank is bad, and Dem support is particularly galling. EGRRCPA now requires the Fed to cozy up to the biggest banks and write custom regulations for each. I don't want any Trump appointee in charge of that process, and not just because I'm old enough to remember 2008.
Perhaps under a president Clinton this law wouldn't be so frightening.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)If a majority of Democrats are not supporting it, does that make it a bad?
And is the inverse true - if a majority of Democrats support it, does that mean it's good?
Orsino
(37,428 posts)We have to look at the whys and why-nots, and at the apparent quid pro quos.
Democrats aren't good because we're Democrats. The things that make us good help make us good Democrats. While I understand that remaining pure under the assaut of Citizens United isn't always easy, that big, easy money is precisely the sort of thing that Dems should avoid if they don't want to end up smelling like Republicans.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)You made the inference that because they opposed it, it was wrong, not me.
You think that Democrats who support this are being corrupted by Citizens United?
You think that any politician can be "pure?"
I certainly don't know of any who are.
Orsino
(37,428 posts)And in the age of Trump, a senator's too-snuggly friendship with the bankers is going to pale next to the rampant assaults on democracy. We just have to be alert on all fronts.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)despite what their fans say...especially when there are different standard applied to any other candidate, especially challengers.
Orsino
(37,428 posts)It's up to each of us to judge. Our responsibility is to stay informed and not lose sight of ones that matter.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Especially those politicians who declare themselves the true measure of purity.
tinrobot
(10,903 posts)Don't forget the Russians used their tactics to support Bernie as a way to divide Democrats...
Bernie has been rather silent on that aspect of his "popularity"
LWolf
(46,179 posts)about the establishment, doesn't it?
That the most popular politician in America is neither a Republican nor a Democrat, and that the establishment Democrats would rather lose to Trump than get behind him.
I was hoping for better from the party in 2020.
leftofcool
(19,460 posts)Democrats run a Black female for President or we write in Hillary.
Bradshaw3
(7,522 posts)Brilliant Sarandon strategy there.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)Think Trump is bad now, let him get reelected. The shear damage will be enormous and will take decades to correct, beyond the lifetimes of pretty much everyone here.
Bradshaw3
(7,522 posts)InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)Garrett78
(10,721 posts)I'm certainly not going to waste my vote on a write-in. Anyway, there's no way Sanders will be the nominee. Like straw polls and caucuses, events like this one in DC are not usually representative of the electorate.
Raine
(30,540 posts)behind the party nominee...
Twisty
(31 posts)Response to leftofcool (Reply #18)
Eliot Rosewater This message was self-deleted by its author.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)for a nominee is not Sanders. It's a Black female.
Nina Turner for president.
AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)Love her.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)We need to get rid of Trump with the only person that can beat him, the Democratic Party nominee. Please keep this in mind as we go through the 2020 primary grinder.
KPN
(15,646 posts)I'm a Bernie fan. I watched his address. Maybe he got more applause than others, but it wasn't obvious if you only watched him. Much to do about absolutely nothingin my opinion.
grantcart
(53,061 posts)KPN
(15,646 posts)whether and to what extent it is orchestrated, and really by whom.
YOHABLO
(7,358 posts)InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)What choice do we have if we hope to depose the Dick-tator-in-Chief?!
MrPool
(73 posts)was given to John Lewis, A four star general, and congressional WOC. I can just taste the unity now!
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)I don't think that word means what you think it means....
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)If so, then you are being disingenuous.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)He should have spent the whole convention talking with groups of his supporters about the importance of backing Hillary 100%. But all he did was show up one night then vanish for a couple of months. The bad taste is still in my mouth, but I promise you that if Bernie somehow becomes our nominee, I will support him 1000% because that is no fucking alternative, IMO.
AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)... outlining how the DNC and the party's leadership had worked to sabotage Bernie Sanders' presidential campaign, prompting the resignation of DNC chair Debbie Wasserman-Schultz before the Democratic National Convention. After the convention, DNC CEO Amy Dacey, CFO Brad Marshall, and Communications Director Luis Miranda also resigned in the wake of the controversy.
With incontrovertible proof finally in hand, it made Sanders' supporters who had donated money and worked their hearts out a bit cranky, understandably so to any reasonable person. And I assure you, the bad taste is still in our mouths.
lunamagica
(9,967 posts)this time. That alone will stop him.
Plus there are other problems out there, like Jane and Burlington college...
BannonsLiver
(16,396 posts)The Bernie fans here seem to be anticipating a cakewalk if he runs in 2020. I don't anticipate that will be the case for the reasons you mentioned, among many others, including general fatigue.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)Will they man and woman up, or will they act like babies and fuck up our chances to rid the nation of Trump?
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)First, the question that was posed, which I responded to was: "So what will the Democratic Party do IF Bernie becomes that popular with Dem voters?"
The "second thing" is, IF Bernie runs again for President in 2020, and IF Bernie is required to disclose his tax returns, I have ZERO doubt that he will.
The "third thing" is, even IF it were true that Jane has a "Burlington College" problem - which I highly doubt -since when is it appropriate it to hold the sins of the spouse against the candidate?! How many times did we argue, APPROPRIATELY, in response to right-wing zealots, that any sins of Bill Clinton shouldn't be attributed to, or otherwise held against, Hillary in her campaign against tRump? That was absolutely the correct view to take... but, when it comes to bashing Bernie, I guess NOTHING is out of bounds.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)You really do have no memory of DU in 2016, do you?
lunamagica
(9,967 posts)InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)As I said, and you obviously recall, many here on DU argued, RIGHTFULLY SO, that it's inappropriate to hold the sins of the spouse against the candidate, YOU among them no doubt. So, why the double standard when using Jane's conduct to bash Bernie?? How quickly they forget!!
lunamagica
(9,967 posts)The 'Jane is looking for them" is one of the most pathetic excuses ever given. It was a blatant lie. What was the problem then, that is not problem now?
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Excuses don't look good for DT, or any other politician avoiding the usual transparency expected of politicians with ambitions for the Oval Office.
lunamagica
(9,967 posts)there were only TWO candidates in '16 who refused to release their taxes: trump and Sanders. How peculiar is that? And how does it make Sanders look? Let me answer that. It makes him look bad...I mean, he and trump hiding their returns...bad. Then why would he allow himself to look this bad?
The only answer I can think of is that releasing his taxes would make him look worse. That's the most logical, simple explanation.
He has guarded those tax returns like a mad dog. Thinking he will release them now has no base in relity
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)in public and behind closed doors.
lunamagica
(9,967 posts)you have been asked this before, and you never reply. Why do you think he refused to release his full tax returns?
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)... so please don't make shit up about me. Thank you.
lunamagica
(9,967 posts)to the reasons why he refused to disclose his full tax returns?
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)But, regardless, as I've also said, he SHOULD release at 5 years of past tax returns IF he intends to run again in 2020.
But, if you're forcing me to GUESS, in answer to your question, I believe the reason Bernie didn't do so was because Hillary refused to release her speeches to Wall Street banks and Bernie was using his tax returns as leverage to get her to be transparent, which obviously didn't work.
But, again, that's just a GUESS IN ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION... I have ZERO INTEREST in relitigating the 2016 primary... I, for one, am looking forward, and in 2020, I support the call for Bernie to release his tax returns regardless other candidates' decisions on this issue... it's the right thing to do, no question.
lunamagica
(9,967 posts)Blue_true
(31,261 posts)covered up. There were questions of income, investments, his net worth being far larger than he claimed. All that stuff will come out this time around, and if Bernie turns out to be as pure as new snow, I will be the first to apologize and offer to wash your feet, but I don't think that I will have to.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)I'm sure the cries of "why are we not INCLUSIVE?!!!!!" will rise if candidates can't get their records "in order" prior to this.
Deja Vu all over again, as someone once said.
And of course Sanders has not been vetted like other candidates- including HRC, the most vetted candidate in history.
At least by Democrats.
With swelling ambition comes scrutiny expanding in kind, and Sanders has a history of not reacting well to scrutiny of his life that other politicians are subjected to.
(Yes, this is from 2015, but the focus isn't about last Democratic primary, but this particular politicians' record of responses to routine questions about his life that he is uncomfortable with.)
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/07/bernie-sanders-vermont-119927
SergeStorms
(19,204 posts)and wins the nomination I'll back him 100%. As an Independent, riding on the backs and bucks of Democrats, then no. If he decided to run as a third party candidate I'd do everything within my power to make sure he fails, miserably. There's much too much at stake here, and I don't care whose feelings get hurt.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)for President in 2020. As much as I support Bernie, like you, I would have to reject and denounce him if he ran as an Independent.
AT THE SAME TIME, some in the Democratic Party, like some of those here, who want to bar Bernie from running as a Democrat, ironically, could be the ones most responsible for forcing hom to run as an Independent.
That would be CATASTROPHIC to our chances of defeating the Traitor-in-Chief in 2020!!
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)Demsrule86
(68,586 posts)but now we move on. I voted for Bernie in the primary last time...and he won't get my vote again in a primary. Judging from what I have seen working on Cordray's campaign he won't get many Democratic votes in Ohio...just one area of course, but I was surprised at how strongly people felt. I hope he doesn't run so we can move on and not revisit the division of 16...I know you all get annoyed when I say this but I think 80 is too old to run for president...I just do. Health is very fragile at that age. And, we would most likely be running a new candidate in 2024 who would not have incumbent advantages.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)There is absolutely NO WAY that I will not vote or write in. If Bernie is the nominee, I contribute to his campaign any way that I can, and vote for him when I vote early.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)... not for the demographics of the entire United States. All I'm saying is that he should stick to what he knows.
lovemydogs
(575 posts)InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)DemocracyMouse
(2,275 posts)I hope Biden is taking in, and beginning to resonate with, these thoughtful, conscientious Americans. Their progressive ideas have never turned off anyone I've ever spoken to and I talk to a lot of people! For example, if Biden or any front runner talks about extending Medicare to all, he'll get the voters' enthusiasm. If he explains how the money wasted currently on commercial insurance cos. will nearly pay for the program (yes, the numbers work out), he'll get their respect. But he has to do the research like Warren and B. Sanders.
Just do the research, Joe. Don't rest on your laurels.
Nevernose
(13,081 posts)The only reason he wasnt a two term president, IMHO, was delivery.
Hes hardly a leftist. Hes been on the wrong side of a few issues, especially earlier in his career.
But I had the luck/privilege of hearing him speak to fundraisers in 2007, well after he had a serious chance of winning the nomination. I was not one of those fundraisers, but Democrats are cooler than Republicans and so let me sit a table. It was a table in the back, but still...
Joe Biden gave a barn burner of a speech. Outstanding. I said here on DU, when he was running for senate, that Obama was going to be out next POTUS. Reid brought Obama out here to GOTV. I was an early adopter of Obama. However, after I heard Biden speak without he pressure? It was a holy shit moment. It was like the second coming of FDR. Our caucus had already passed and I kept knocking on doors for Obama, but if Biden had been that one guy from that one night, from the beginning? Where he just said what he thought and didnt give a fuck? Biden would have won handily.
Rhiannon12866
(205,544 posts)He obviously has the experience we've needed and he was a great partner for Obama. Besides being a gifted speaker, he's incredibly popular with pretty much everyone, including his colleagues on the other side of the aisle.
DemocracyMouse
(2,275 posts)I saw him once denigrate teachers in higher education for being paid too much. He singled out a small minority of star professors who are paid well into the six digits, without an apparent awareness that most college intructors have been marginalized into adjunct positions which pay non-living wages. And, sorry, most cannot sustain a second job and must cobble together multiple adjunct gigs to survive. The point is that Biden hadn't done his homework and I was extremely disappointed. If he had, he'd be blaming the rising cost of higher education on the shift towards a "business" model where students are treated like consumers (accounting for grade inflation, the dumbing down of classes, expensive increases in sports and country club amenities), and stakeholders like the upper administrations doubled and tripled their salaries and doubled the total number of administrators.
Now, to be fair, it might have been a "winging it" moment for Biden. I contacted a close associate of his in the Obama admin and Biden's team did diligently take in my analysis and sources.
Maybe he got the message and I'll gladly route for the man (if Warren doesn't break through the pack!)
I'd love to see ANY Democrat point out that turning any non-profit industry into a business (health insurance, prisons, education) leads to higher cost and de-humanized conditions. But they have to be smart and couple that position with a statement about the equal importance of empowering a people's entrepreneurial for-profit sector WITH a sound non-profit infrastructure. Democrats always emphasize the former over the latter and get accused of being "anti-business." (Yes they are rightly critical of big business, but the Republican fog machine obscures it).
Some day an angel will come along and say "a non-profit infrastructure by the people, for the people, will fuel a beautiful, highly creative, people's for-profit economy." Maybe Biden can strike that balance.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)I would do backflips getting to the poll to vote for him, at least then I know the country would be back under sane leadership.
leftstreet
(36,109 posts)kamalafan
(63 posts)And that would ensure a landslide victory over Trump!
Lots of excitement around the both of them and it would really bring lots of voters out.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)She can succeed and fly high on her own without having to rely on another politician's "coat tails". Such a short-sighted move would likely harm her political career in the long term. I'd lose a lot of respect for her ability to think strategically if she ever considered such a thing.
BannonsLiver
(16,396 posts)There's not a snowball's chance in hell she would be on a ticket with Sanders.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)And if Joe promises to serve only one term, that ticket is a winner.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)That's a pledge that does not inspire confidence. I'd be MORE willing to support someone who's in it for the long haul and who has a vision that needs (requires) a full eight years to implement successfully.
An early pledge to "only serve one term" strikes me as something that would come from a candidate who lacks confidence in himself or herself... it's as if that candidate is making a grand bargain with the voters "I know you don't really like me, but vote for me anyway because I promise to leave after 4 years".
No thanks.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)The pledge and living up to it would give Joe and ironclad lock on a win, IMO. Then after one term, his younger second can lead the way.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Blue_true
(31,261 posts)If he points out the atrocities of the Trump administration and point out that he wants to get the country back on course and he is confident that he can do that in four years, then yield to a younger person, lots of people that may have not wanted to vote for him based upon his age will likely come over to him.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)What I'm saying is, the whole concept just sounds desperate and it totally sends the wrong message about Democrats and the Democratic party. I think it's reasonable for people to want Democrats to be (and to be seen as) the party of the future, not the party of the past.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)That is if the far left don't pull the 2000 and 2016 bs again.
kamalafan
(63 posts)kamalafan
(63 posts)and I like both Bernie and Kamala. It would be a fantastic way to drive voters to get out.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)loyalist were bashing her as an "establishment tool."
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)which splains why he's so damn popular.
kamalafan
(63 posts)I think it would be the perfect combination myself.
Gothmog
(145,321 posts)AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)... and the legal basis for Trump's heartless immigration policy. Obama broke up plenty of families with his massive. number of deportations, but Trump is going even further with the virtual concentration camps he's setting up - all done under ICE.
https://m.
kamalafan
(63 posts)I read incorrectly.
still_one
(92,224 posts)The mostly 20- and 30-something crowd paid $20 each for tickets to the rally, billed as ''Nader Rocks the Garden.'' They whooped as celebrities, including Susan Sarandon, Tim Robbins, Michael Moore and Bill Murray, heaped praise on Mr. Nader.and chanted a chorus of ''Let Ralph Debate."
''Welcome to the politics of joy and justice,'' Mr. Nader said. ''We are building a historic, progressive, political movement in America; a movement for which Nov. 7th is just one stopping place.''
In an hourlong speech that at times sounded like a left-leaning history lesson, Mr. Nader assailed big business for what he called ''a corporate crime wave,'' and said the Democratic and Republican parties were controlled by corporations. ''Our country has been sold to the highest bidder,'' Mr. Nader said.
Mr. Moore, a filmmaker, urged the crowd not to worry that voting for Mr. Nader might help Mr. Bush by taking votes from Mr. Gore.
''The lesser of two evils, you still end up with evil,'' Mr. Moore said. ''You don't make a decision because of fear: you make it on your hopes, your dreams, your aspirations.''
https://www.nytimes.com/2000/10/14/business/the-2000-campaign-the-green-party-nader-supporters-fill-madison-square-garden.html
Mr. Moore, a lot of people have forgotten you bullshit logic which started us down where we are today. I haven't
betsuni
(25,544 posts)This is depressing.
still_one
(92,224 posts)and using things as "best reception", has very little value
betsuni
(25,544 posts)shanny
(6,709 posts)The election in 2000 was a coup d'etat: 5 Republican justices stopped the recounting of votes and awarded the Presidency to the candidate of their party. It was such an obviously, egregiously bad decision that they stipulated it was not to be used as a precedent (wtf?). iow they were fully aware of their perfidy at the time.
And nobody did/said shit about it, including our candidate. Because norms, and checks and balances. Handwriting was on the wall then, sports fans, and we've been beating up the wrong enemies ever since.
still_one
(92,224 posts)and Democrats, and the same lies and undermining of the Democratic nominee occurred from the SAME usual suspects in 2016.
Every Democrat running for Senate in those critical swing states lost to the establishment, incumbent, republican with the help of those self-identified progressives who either refused NOT to vote for the Democratic nominee, voting third party, or not voting, continue to this day to have no regrets for their actions, and most of those Democrats running for Senate in those swing states were progressive by any standard.
While this rally appears to be a group willing to work WITHIN the Democratic party, and not adopt an all or nothing ideology, the lessons of 2000 and 2016 need to be remembered
shanny
(6,709 posts)Gothmog
(145,321 posts)I will never forgive nader Rove funded Nader in 2000 and 2004 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-zuesse/ralph-nader-was-indispens_b_4235065.html
Furthermore, Karl Rove and the Republican Party knew this, and so they nurtured and crucially assisted Naders campaigns, both in 2000 and in 2004. On 27 October 2000, the APs Laura Meckler headlined GOP Group To Air Pro-Nader TV Ads. She opened: Hoping to boost Ralph Nader in states where he is threatening to hurt Al Gore, a Republican group is launching TV ads featuring Nader attacking the vice president [Mr. Gore]. ... Al Gore is suffering from election year delusion if he thinks his record on the environment is anything to be proud of, Nader says [in the commercial]. An announcer interjects: Whats Al Gores real record? Nader says: Eight years of principles betrayed and promises broken. Mecklers report continued: A spokeswoman for the Green Party nominee said that his campaign had no control over what other organizations do with Naders speeches. Bushs people - the group sponsoring this particular ad happened to be the Republican Leadership Council - knew exactly what they were doing, even though the liberal suckers who voted so carelessly for Ralph Nader obviously did not. Anyone who drives a car the way those liberal fools voted, faces charges of criminal negligence, at the very least. But this time, the entire nation crashed as a result; not merely a single car.....
On July 9th, the San Francisco Chronicle headlined GOP Doners Funding Nader: Bush Supporters Give Independents Bid a Financial Lift, and reported that the Nader campaign has received a recent windfall of contributions from deep-pocketed Republicans with a history of big contributions to the party, according to an analysis of federal records. Perhaps these contributors were Ambassador Egans other friends. Mr. Egans wife was now listed among the Nader contributors. Another listed was Nijad Fares, a Houston businessman, who donated $200,000 to the Bush inaugural committee and who donated $2,000 each to the Nader effort and the Bush campaign this year. Furthermore, Ari Berman reported 7 October 2004 at the Nation, under Swift Boat Veterans for Nader, that some major right-wing funders of a Republican smear campaign against Senator John Kerrys Vietnam service contributed also $13,500 to the Nader campaign, and that the Republican Party of Michigan gathered ninety percent of Naders signatures in their state (90%!) to place Nader on the ballot so Bush could win that swing states 17 electoral votes. Clearly, the word had gone out to Bushs big contributors: Help Ralphie boy! In fact, on 15 September 2005, John DiStaso of the Manchester Union-Leader, reported that, A year ago, as the Presidential general election campaign raged in battleground state New Hampshire, consumer advocate Ralph Nader found his way onto the ballot, with the help of veteran Republican strategist David Carney and the Carney-owned Norway Hill Associates consulting firm.
It was obvious, based upon the 2000 election results, that a dollar contributed to Nader in the 2004 contest would probably be a more effective way to achieve a Bush win against Kerry in the U.S. Presidential election than were perhaps even ten dollars contributed to Bush. This was a way of peeling crucial votes off from Bushs real opponent - votes that otherwise would have gone to the Democrat. Thats why the smartest Republican money in the 2004 Presidential election was actually going to Nader, even more so than to Bush himself: these indirect Bush contributions provided by far the biggest bang for the right-wing buck.
bahrbearian
(13,466 posts)Last edited Thu Jun 14, 2018, 09:49 AM - Edit history (1)
still_one
(92,224 posts)intent of this rally.
The only way to move forward is with everyone involved.
Howard Dean's 50-state strategy recognized this.
Those that adhere to either their way are no way, usually have the exact opposite of their goals
Squinch
(50,955 posts)betsuni
(25,544 posts)Squinch
(50,955 posts)best reception. So maybe the slogan should be "have your acolytes say you are the best at everything, even when it appears to be untrue."
Worked for whiny little Donnie, after all.
betsuni
(25,544 posts)Being sarcastic.
brer cat
(24,578 posts)I loved the "be best."
Squinch
(50,955 posts)mcar
(42,334 posts)VOX
(22,976 posts)Oh, children, it was a sight to behold. And the thunderous applause for him...*HIM!* went heavenward, and it was like a sweet, soft tonic for the angels above. But we need your love, children. Give it to us, please! Good God, I feel it tonight! Whoooo!
grantcart
(53,061 posts)From above but only the true believers could see it.
RandiFan1290
(6,237 posts)Wonder if they plan on voting for trump if Bernie gets the nomination?
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)We all know there is divided opinion about Bernie on DU. OP surely knows that. 2 years now with claims that Bernie has the most fans, the best crowds, etc. He was going to win all 50 states! You can hardly be surprised that a post saying he had the most enthusiasm somewhere is going to invite the usual suspects like me to be cynical.
Treestar~
sheshe2
(83,792 posts)54. Bashers going bonkers Wonder if they plan on voting for trump if Bernie gets the nomination?
Are you calling DUers that disagree with Sanders "bashers" and of possibly refusing to vote for BS if he wins the nomination and to double down you seem to be accusing Democrats on this board of possibly voting tRump? Did I misunderstand your comment?
Squinch
(50,955 posts)sheshe2
(83,792 posts)From your link.
Many of the ideas that we talked about were thought to be fringe ideas, radical ideas, extremist ideas, he said of his campaign planks like infrastructure reform, tuition-free public colleges and Medicare for all, which has been embraced by many Democratic House candidates in midterm campaigns this year. Because of your efforts, those ideas are now mainstream American ideas.
Yet, Sanders didnt embrace every liberal policy tossed his way on Wednesday. Asked what he would do to rein in Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), Sanders declared the need to protect so-called Dreamers but didnt go as far as calling to defund ICE an idea which has gained some traction among more liberal candidates.
When Warren, Sanderss top competition on the partys left flank, took the stage, she used her time to hammer the GOP. She said Republicans are leaving workers behind and argued that theres widespread corruption in the White House, Congress and the Supreme Court. She specifically called out the GOPs tax overhaul as evidence of corruption in Congress.
Elizabeth is armed and ready to fight the GOP and the future of this country. She is calling out the GOP's corruption, attacking them head on. Dayum, I love my Senator.
Vinca
(50,279 posts)crypt if allowed. (Disclaimer: not ageism - I'm old.)
BlueStater
(7,596 posts)I will not stop mentioning how absurd this is.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,913 posts)Just half kidding. Both Biden and Sanders are exceptional in their ways but I agree that it isn't a good sign if we have to look for leadership now from men of their generation. I don't dismiss the possibility of supporting either one of them, but still...
BlueStater
(7,596 posts)So is Warren, really. If you were born on or before December 31, 1949, you're now too old to be president and should not be considered a viable candidate. Bernie was born before PEARL HARBOR, for fucks sake.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)I would vote for either in a heartbeat versus Trump. I would vote for either, even if they did not agree to serve only one term. The stakes are way too high.
I hope democratic voters have the wisdom to choose one of the younger bright lights that we have in the party.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)-Karl Marx
disillusioned73
(2,872 posts)sheshe2
(83,792 posts)10. "Perhaps the most vigorous applause in the room was for the outgoing congressman Luis Gutirrez..."
Perhaps the most vigorous applause in the room was for the outgoing congressman Luis Gutiérrez, who received standing ovations and loud cheers when he condemned the Trump administrations immigration policy and its efforts to crack down on asylum seekers and separate migrant families at the US-Mexico border. I can think of nothing more cruel, more evil than to rip a child from a mothers arms who is fleeing systematic rape, murder, torture.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jun/13/democratic-2020-hopefuls-progressive-conference-we-the-people
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210730598#post10
disillusioned73
(2,872 posts)I saw an interview w/ him recently and I hope he is able to make a difference with his grass roots activism.. Puerto Rico can use all the help that it can get..
NY_20th
(1,028 posts)were able to get so many high profile Democrats to meet with them, and am equally impressed that these Senators took the time to address their concerns.
Kudos to all. I wish I could have been there.
mopinko
(70,132 posts)George II
(67,782 posts)Squinch
(50,955 posts)samnsara
(17,622 posts)Hassin Bin Sober
(26,330 posts)LiberalBob_in_MA
(34 posts)-- then they should officially adopt the policies he is advocating for and that all of us want (I think) -- such as universal healthcare for all, free education at state Universities, campaign finance reform, etc, etc.
Make it part of the Democratic platform in no uncertain terms and as a PARTY repeat these things over and over and over again. They would win in a landslide.
No more "we'll look at it and consider it", or whatever BS. State unequivocally what they stand for.
If they did this -- Bernie would step aside.
Didn't the Democrats 'absorb' competing leftist labor parties in the beginning of the 20th century by taking up their pro-labor issues in a similar manner?
Being "the other corporate party that takes money - but we won't screw you as badly as the Republicans" doesn't cut it.
Who was it that said if you offer the people the choice between a fake Republican and a REAL Republican the people will choose the genuine article every time?
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)and Campaign finance reform, and affordable post high school education and training.
Perhaps you haven't looked at the platform for a few decades...
Bernie didn't invent those ideas - they've been Democratic issues since before Sanders was on Capitol Hill.
Response to ehrnst (Reply #132)
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ehrnst
(32,640 posts)And expanding the ACA is indeed implementing Universal Health Care.
No, "Medicare for All" is not the only path to Universal Health care, nor is it interchangeable with Universal Health Care.
Single payer is to universal health care what toy poodle is to canine.
Is that clearer?
"We have finally made real the principle that every American should have access to quality health care, and no one should go bankrupt just because they get sick and well never stop fighting to protect that principle."
What I'm not clear on is why you are on Democratic Underground if you are not a Democrat.
"Just read the Democrat weasel words that are part of their official party platform."
Response to ehrnst (Reply #138)
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ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Because no Universal Health Care plan can happen in 8 years, not even Medicare for All.
https://www.urban.org/research/publication/sanders-single-payer-health-care-plan-effect-national-health-expenditures-and-federal-and-private-spending
Gradual expansion of the ACA is the way non-partisan health policy analysts say is the most affordable and most feasible way to get to universal health care coverage. I take their word over any politicians claims to the contrary.
And you seem not to understand what the ACA is - it's a law, not insurance. You need to educate yourself on facts before critiquing any Democratic success in that area.
What have the GOP or Greens or Libertarians or independents actually accomplished in terms of actually moving towards Universal Health Care coverage?
Now, tell me about how Dems don't support campaign reform or affordable higher education? Those aren't just "weasel words" in that platform, Bob.
Since you seem unclear on the platform, here it is:
What have the GOP or Greens or Libertarians or independents accomplished in that area?
Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the Democratic nominee for president in 2016. Here is her plan for campaign finance reform:
Overturn Citizens Unitedthe Supreme Court case that unleashed hundreds of millions of dollars in corporate and special-interest money into U.S. elections.Hillary will appoint Supreme Court justices who will protect Americans right to vote over the right of billionaires to buy elections. She will also propose a constitutional amendment to overturn Citizens United within her first 30 days in office.
End secret, unaccountable money in politics. We need federal legislation to require outside groups to publicly disclose significant political spending. And until Congress acts, Hillary will sign an executive order requiring federal government contractors to do the same. Shell also push for an SEC rule requiring publicly traded companies to disclose political spending to shareholders.
Amplify the voices of everyday Americans. Hillary will establish a small-donor matching system for presidential and congressional elections to give small donors greater influence.
https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/campaign-finance-reform/
I hope that clarifies things about Democrats for you.
Response to ehrnst (Reply #143)
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ehrnst
(32,640 posts)The ACA is effectively our national health care system, and it has been attacked and weakened by the GOP. What do you think they would do to an attempt at Single Payer.
As I said, you cannot eliminate private health care coverage in less than 20 years, and other countries acheive universal health care with some participation by private insurance. Did you skip over that part with the examples from Germany and the Netherlands?
There are still millions of people who make too much money to qualify for government subsidies on buying a plan -- and cannot afford ~20K a year for a family plan without such subsidy. Yep, that's what it costs.
Bernie's not going to get that fixed in under 20 years, either.
That's what Hillary Clinton was planning, allowing people to buy into Medicare at age 55. Perhaps you've heard of her? Big Democrat. The platform states the goal of universal health care coverage, and doesn't lock into just one specific tactic, especially one that hasn't materialized in nearly 40 years of attempts.
Again, that didn't happen in Ted Kennedy's lifetime, and it's sure not going to happen in Bernie's. Ideas are one thing - results are another. Bernie's idea isn't really financed like Medicare, but putting Medicare in the name is good political marketing.
https://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/05/voters-who-like-medicare-for-all-may-not-like-single-payer.html
Response to ehrnst (Reply #154)
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ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Actually no, not in the Medicare for All package that Sanders has proposed. Private insurance goes away. Have you even read it?
Yes, that is pretty much exacly what is being sold in "Medicare for All". Your own posts indicate that is what you thought. Perhaps you really don't understand what Sanders is proposing. Or you are trying to change your argument as we go along....
Because everyone would eventually get insurance from Medicare, private insurance companies would essentially be eliminated. The bill would bar employers from offering private insurance once the new system becomes universal.
The bill does establish a program to help the industrys workers transition to new careers. Insurance would be allowed to cover services that are not part of the Medicare system, but they would probably be marginal, since the bill establishes a robust set of Medicare benefits.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/09/14/us/impact-of-sanders-medicare-for-all-plan.html
They WILL be challenged and splintered by the Bernie's of the world. Count on it.
They have done better than Bernie ever did. Think about that.
Who has been "Republican-lite" for the past 30 years? Certainly Republicans aren't defending LGBTQ rights, Planned Parenthood, women's reproductive health, the environment, immigrants and POC. Perhaps you are unclear on what Republican means.
Because Democrats are not it. Splintering us by equating us with "Republican-lite" is how we ended up with Trump.
Is that clearer?
Response to ehrnst (Reply #160)
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ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Of course you won't. It's clear you neither know nor care what is actually in his "MFA" plan.
Absolutely - it just needs to support UHC, in whatever form will get it to people sooner. You seem to have evolved on this during the course of our discussion. I'm glad that I have had an effect. You're welcome.
Yes, Hillary pulled Bernie to the left on social justice issues, which is apparent after the election. Hillary was always more knowledgeable and accomplished on Health Care Reform and social justice policy. She aligned with the platform, never called abortion a "social issue," and never dismissed issues that didn't affect white straight men directly as "identity politics."
Again, you seem to equate UHC with MFA, which is not the case, as I have shown you.
Ex: The ACA was written by lobbyists and thus, did almost nothing to control costs (profits).
You have still not been able to provide a list of lobbyists that "wrote" the ACA. Can you provide a non-fiction example of Democrats being the "other party of big business"?
If you aren't a Democrat, why do you feel qualified to lecture us on UHC, a topic you clearly don't have accurate information on?
Whatevah.
Response to ehrnst (Reply #187)
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ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Good to see you evolving on this in the course of our discussion. You're welcome.
"the real thing?" again, can you be less vague?
By "rabbit hole" you mean being corrected on what you claimed is in MFA, the Democratic Platform, the fact that other countries acheive UHC using hybrid public/private payers, and the fact that Hillary was proposing exactly what you said should be proposed, but you didn't seem to know about?
Words have meanings, and you didn't know what some of them meant, and that was causing you to promote misinformation.
Still waiting on the names of the lobbyists who "wrote the ACA," Perhaps you could write Senator Sanders, who claimed to have "helped to write the ACA." He would certainly know the names of the lobbyists he worked with, yes?
Response to ehrnst (Reply #191)
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ehrnst
(32,640 posts)As I said, the ACA was intended to expand. It was chipped away at by the GOP. Our best hope for expanding coverage to all is to restore and expand it. To promise UHC in less than 20 years is uninformed at best, lying at worst. If you think it was "wishy-washy" ask someone whose child had a pre-existing condition...
Um... when did I say Joe Leiberman did write the ACA. You brought him into this. I'm not "playing games" when I ask you to back up your claim that "lobbyists wrote the ACA," nor when I say that Sanders claimed to help write it. You clearly can't back up the assertion, as we can all see by your defensiveness.
Yes, that would split oof Democrats will less of an understanding of what Bernie is actually proposing. And since MFA isn't going to happen for at least another 20 years, if at all (due to the way that he wrote it) anyone Bernie-like or otherwise promising "everyone in, nobody out" during their administration is hawking an empty promise. Then where will Democrats be? If you think people got pissed off by "not being able to keep their doctor" how do you think they're going to react to when "everyone in, nobody out" doesn't come to passy. That would just be stupidly obtuse as to what MFA meant.
Well, if the "hard-left progressives" that Our Revolution endorsed this year are any indication, they won't get a chance to "sell" anything, because they can't seem to get elected. Perhaps they should take a lesson from those who won, and pivot left on social justice issues, instead of focusing on empty promises that they know they won't be actually called upon to deliver. Those of us not "stupidly obtuse" on the issue aren't fooled.
Response to ehrnst (Reply #197)
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ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Predictable.
You could imagine some kind of long transition, where you gradually expanded Medicare, said Starr, for example moving it down to age 55 and then in later years continue to lower the age threshold.
https://khn.org/news/democrats-unite-but-what-happened-to-medicare-for-all/
How long do you think that expanding medicare to 55 year olds, then extending CHIP upwards will take with the GOP on the attack. Canada took from 1947- 1962 (15 years) for all the provinces to go single payer independently before the a very liberal goverment was elected and put a federal layer on. Using that as a metric, in 2016 Coloradocare failed to pass, and Green Mountain Care, started in 2010, also failed to get off the ground. California can't figure out a way to do it quickly, because they are actually looking at what it would take.
https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/Single-payer-will-take-years-to-implement-Gavin-12846093.php
We also have a larger population, and Canada didn't have a baked in private system to overhaul, so I added 5 years for that. And that's generous. It's an average of 19 years between successful health care reform efforts in the US. I have an understanding of health care policy, and you clearly don't. That's not huffy - that's just fact. And the fact that Sanders refuses to even discuss Green Mountain Care's demise, let alone talk about lessons learned doesn't say much for his understanding of the obstacles, or his willingness to admit that he might have something to learn. Either way, it doesn't add to his credibility on the topic that he brands as his.
So you still haven't been able to provide any evidence or names of lobbyists who "wrote the ACA." But Bernie claims to have helped, so again - write Bernie and ask him who was with him when he did this. You keep repeating Joe Lieberman, but no, he's not a lobbyist, and no, he didn't "write the ACA." We understand that you want to think that, but it's just not accurate, as your lack of ability to present any actual identities shows.
And my point being that it's glorified snake oil at this point - but named after something that's not snake oil - excellent marketing, as I have posted before, and you continually ignore. Democrats who want to run in 2020 will get on the bandwagon right now, because so-called progressives have made it a litmus test, not because it's possible. Under informed people don't see it as that. An unfounded one, but a litmus test.
Project much? You get annoyed that I ask you to back up your claims.... pot, meet kettle.
Some have been pulled to the left of it by HRC, of course. No surprise. She got the votes in 2016. It's sort of in the Democratic platform. You should read it sometimes.
Again with the strawmen. I think that people should be promised the sky by people who don't even know how to fly an airplane. You seem to think that unless they are promised the moon, they are being cheated.
https://www.urban.org/research/publication/sanders-single-payer-health-care-plan-effect-national-health-expenditures-and-federal-and-private-spending
There are always people willing to fall for pie in the sky promises. Look at Trump supporters.
Honey, you need to take a look in the mirror. Getting all defensive and huffy won't make those promises of Healthcare for everyone in one presidential term any more realistic. Milquetoast factual credibility and bad math will not health care reform make, no matter what kind of promises longtime politicians make that will prolong the cheering crowds at the end of a career. That's some tough juju to give up.
Whatevah.
Response to ehrnst (Reply #214)
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ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Strange how different that is and yes, the vast majority use private insurance partners to deliver it.
Not me, Hon - professional, non-partisan policy analysts who work for self funded orgs. Trump and the GOP also tells me that there are "alternative facts" that make things sound much more agreeable...
Glad you finally understand what "medicare for all" really is. A political unicorn.
WE have been out in front of Universal Health Care for years - and have gotten the U.S. closer than we've ever been. I suggest that you support US, because not doing so is going to get us more years of Trump - or Pence.
If not, you should just head on over to JPR, where an echo chamber awaits.
Nice attempt at racking up those post numbers tho - they'll be impressed.
Response to ehrnst (Reply #216)
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ehrnst
(32,640 posts)And no, people didn't have to give up anything to implement it, as people here would now.
And health care costs were way lower, because there weren't the expensive technologies we have now - it's much easier to keep costs down than it is to bring them down.
Yes, like the GOP basic inescapable logic that eliminating Planned Parenthood will eliminate abortions, and that women will keep their knees together if they can't get contraception or abortion. Uninformed "logic" isn't logic at all. Your lack of understanding of the history of other nations' health care systems, and the differences in what they started with renders your logic and assumptions similarly flawed.
You refer to Democrats as "they." Just sayin'.
The interests of facts, data and reality. I have also harshed the buzz of many anti-choicers with statistics on what happens when you apply actual data to their cherished simple answers concerning Planned Parenthood, and I certainly have done this to the MFA or bust boosters, unfortunately. Some have actually listened.
To imply that anyone who puts a pin into the inflated promises of a politician is acting in the interests of Big PHARMA and is a corporate shill, is a familiar trope.
I wish the unicorn you have been promised is real. I loved my health care in the UK. I understand why we can't wave a magic wand and just put everyone on Medicare next week or even next decade, so that makes be the party pooper.
I'll live...
Response to ehrnst (Reply #221)
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George II
(67,782 posts)..."hard-left progressive"?
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Asking Bob to clarify what he means when he's vague...
Voltaire2
(13,069 posts)George II
(67,782 posts)Can you explain this statement, please? WHO is doing that?
George II
(67,782 posts)betsuni
(25,544 posts)Response to betsuni (Reply #139)
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ehrnst
(32,640 posts)extend affordable coverage to everyone. It's the only real progress since Medicare and Medicaid were implemented.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/its-not-obamacare-anymore-its-our-national-health-care-system/2017/07/28/1a6583fe-73d3-11e7-9eac-d56bd5568db8_story.html
No universal health care plan will happen all at once without massive disruption to the health care delivery system and to the economy, because of how interconnected it is.
Words have meanings, and those meanings are important.
Is that clearer?
Response to ehrnst (Reply #144)
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ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Last edited Mon Jun 18, 2018, 12:42 PM - Edit history (1)
Not within his lifetime. He can deliver.... words.
That is a politician's promise, and not one that actual health policy experts support. Single payer was introduced in 1972 by Ted Kennedy. Why do you think that he didn't support Sanders' plan?
Actually, many countries use a hybrid of public/private payers to acheive Universal Health Care, so yes, it can be done. They deliver more than words, they deliver universal health care, despite your insistence that there is no way that they can...
For instance, Germany has a universal multi-payer health care system paid for by a combination of statutory health insurance (Gesetzliche Krankenversicherung) officially called "sickness funds" (Krankenkassen) and private health insurance (Private Krankenversicherung), colloquially also called " (private) sickness funds."
Healthcare in the Netherlands is financed by a dual system that came into effect in January 2006. Long-term treatments, especially those that involve semi-permanent hospitalization, and also disability costs such as wheelchairs, are covered by a state-controlled mandatory insurance. This is laid down in the Wet Langdurige Zorg ("General Law on Longterm Healthcare" ) which first came into effect in 1968 under the name of Algemene Wet Bijzondere Ziektekosten (AWBZ). In 2009 this insurance covered 27% of all health care expenses.
For all regular (short-term) medical treatment, there is a system of obligatory health insurance, with private health insurance companies. These insurance companies are obliged to provide a package with a defined set of insured treatments. This insurance covers 41% of all health care expenses.
And very few countries have ever had a federal single payer plan. The few that have single payer usually do it at the province/state level.
You need to become more educated on universal health care before lecturing people on it, especially Democrats.
Response to ehrnst (Reply #149)
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ehrnst
(32,640 posts)He's been yelling for years, while Ted Kennedy and Hillary Clinton actually got legislation passed to extend affordable insurance to children.
It's easy to promise something if you know that you'll never actually be expected to deliver, and can blame not delivering on everyone else but yourself.
Why do you think that he couldn't get Ted Kennedy on board?
But the polls show that they are not on board with "Medicare for All" - but something more like a "public option."
A recent poll from Kaiser Family Foundation illustrates the point. It showed that 59 percent of Americans support a national health-care plan, or Medicare-for-all, in which all Americans would get their insurance from a single government plan. Sounds pretty strong, until you see that 75 percent support a national Medicare-for-all plan open to anyone who wants it but people who currently have other coverage could keep what they have. The first proposal is single-payer if you understand it. The second very clearly isnt single-payer.
As non-single-payer health-coverage expansion programs come out that utilize or imitate Medicare, the potential for confusion is growing. Some interviews conducted by BuzzFeed with actual voters in Nebraska illustrates the problem:
[C]onversations with more than two dozen Omaha voters reveal a dynamic that polling, too, has begun to capture: When some moderate and left-leaning voters say Medicare for All sounds like a pretty good idea, they arent actually thinking about single-payer health care. Instead, theyre thinking about simply expanding the program to include more seniors or children, or offering a public option that people can buy into, or what Hillary was promoting - allowing people to buy in at 55.
https://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/05/voters-who-like-medicare-for-all-may-not-like-single-payer.html
Unions don't have corporate interests? And yes, Obama made a gaffe, and no, lobbyists didn't write the ACA. Again, you seem to have no clue what you are talking about in that area, as you lecture those of us who do.
Again, you need to actually educate yourself on what is in Medicare for All, - even as you keep changing what you claim is in it, and what polling has been done before lecturing Democrats on it, and calling Democratic presidents "wishy washy," dishonest and not passionate about it.
Hillary Clinton is passionate, honest, and actually had the political skill and experienced in health care reform to get something accomplished, unlike less expert, less experienced, less capable types that simply yell and wag a finger for decades.
Response to ehrnst (Reply #168)
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ehrnst
(32,640 posts)And what makes you think that Sanders has the legislative and persuasive skills that either Ted or LBJ did?
He certainly hasn't demonstrated them in his time in the Senate, if he does. He couldn't get Ted Kennedy or Paul Wellstone to back his plan, and that says a lot.
So, I'll play your game. Why don't you tell us what lobbyists "wrote" the ACA?
Because Sanders takes credit for helping to write it. Are you saying that he was working closely with lobbyists?
"Were not going to tear up the Affordable Care Act. I helped write it."
Response to ehrnst (Reply #178)
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ehrnst
(32,640 posts)"Were not going to tear up the Affordable Care Act. I helped write it." - Bernie Sanders
Still waiting for the list of lobbyists that "wrote" the ACA. Going to avoid that? I can understand why you'd want to...
I see that I've hit a nerve - you've gone full strawman and red herring.
LBJ got Medicare and Medicaid implemented. You will admit that much, right? I never said that he was trying to implement UHC - I said that Bernie clearly doesn't have the skills to work with congress and the Senate that LBJ had as LBJ demonstrated in the Senate.
And LBJ had to lie about what Medicare and Medicaid would cost in order to get it passed. The CBO makes that impossible now.
Can you be a little more vague when you say that even though we weren't "ready for UHC then" and "To say we aren't there now is disingenuous, if not absurd?" Ready how? Economically? Politcially? Your lack of knowledge on the issue, and your lack of interest in learning about it seems to be causing you to flounder about for a "win."
I mean, what does Joe Lieberman have to do with this?
Whatevah.
brooklynite
(94,601 posts)...if he hasn't convinced a majority that his Medicare for All strategy is worth voting for.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Response to brooklynite (Reply #185)
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ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Again, you seem to be falsely equating MFA with "uhc."
Again, no UHC is going to be implemented at one time, in under 20 years, no matter what a politician promises.
Had the GOP been willing to "give it time" we would be well on the way to UHC with expanded medicaid, expanded CHIP, and medicare buy-in at 55. And you think that the GOP is going to do that for "MFA?"
Yeah, "wait and see" on that...
People need health care now. Hey - helping someone pay their electric bill in the winter is putting dollars into the pocket of Big Coal, but you don't let people freeze to death while you argue over when we are going to eliminate fossil fuel use....
Response to ehrnst (Reply #194)
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ehrnst
(32,640 posts)trying to sell unicorns.
To get EVERYONE on accessible health care that is guaranteed? Yes, that's a conservative estimate.
I'm saying that to promise it in under 20 years will give the GOP ammunition to kill it - like "you can keep your doctor" was used to discredit Obama on the ACA, and gave them support to challenge the Medicaid expansion, which they then turned around and used as ammunition against the idea that the ACA would cover them....
And if you think that people get pissed off having to give up their primary care physician, what do you think they will do when they learn that their options are reduced even further under "medicare for all." Say what you will, but asking people to give up something in they like and are accustomed to in their health care so others can be covered will be a knife fight. That knife fight was not an issue when Europe was establishing their health care systems in the 40's. You seem to lack an understanding of that - they weren't asking people to give up anything, because there wasn't anything for them to give up. And it is far easier to keep costs down than to cut them once they are high. No, neither Canada nor the UK could start now with what we have, and have what the system they have now. Like Social Security - it didn't cover nearly what it does now 75 years ago, nor was the cost of living nearly what it is now. If we had started in the Truman administration, we might have what they do. But that window has closed.
What you refer to "milquetoast" in that area is called "managing expectations" in real life.
Is that clearer?
Response to ehrnst (Reply #219)
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KitSileya
(4,035 posts)Stopping children from being caged. WHat on earth makes you think that a President Sanders would get anything done without a majority in Congress? It's completely ludicrous to think that Sanders would get things done when Obama couldn't because of the opposition. He doesn't have the network on the hill that Obama had, because he's refused to work with the Dems for so long (re Barney Frank) and he certainly won't get the Republicans to vote for his policies.
Response to KitSileya (Reply #224)
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Hortensis
(58,785 posts)and 45-year supporter of universal healthcare, and I couldn't disagree more with your post. To the point that I don't understand how you think, and don't even want to.
Democrats have a huge, existential battle to win.
COUNTDOWN TO MIDTERMS: 140 day!
Response to Hortensis (Reply #234)
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Hortensis
(58,785 posts)progressivism in government, and even government of, by and for the people itself. Which is intrinsically progressive.
Lose control of our democracy and we can all kiss all government-assisted healthcare programs goodbye for the next couple decades at very least.
Response to Hortensis (Reply #237)
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AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)Bernie's appointed representatives (5) battled with the Clinton/DNC representatives (10) on the platform drafting committee, but were outvoted on several issues:
1. They supported fracking.
2. They supported the TPP.
3. They supported the Israeli occupation of Palestine.
4. They did not support a $15 minimum wage tied to inflation.
5. They did not support a carbon tax.
6. They did not support Medicare for All.
ismnotwasm
(41,990 posts)With all due respect its just not happening.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Renew Deal
(81,863 posts)Blue_true
(31,261 posts)kimbutgar
(21,163 posts)I am so over Bernie.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)It's because HRC couldn't beat Trump that we have Trump. It's because the party chose to nominate the most unpopular Democrat in the country, and rejected the person who could have, would have, beat Trump. And, because the party establishment doesn't want to acknowledge their own responsibility for the loss in '16, it may happen again.
kimbutgar
(21,163 posts)Then they convinced the Bernie bots to vote for twitler because he was like Bernie. And Bernie said jack shit.
There's someone who is either totally disconnected from reality and truth or who, like the man in the WH and his staff, simply don't care about truth. I guess he's not the only one.
kimbutgar
(21,163 posts)I think he sold out the Democratic Party and the fact that he went back to being an independent is odious. But I know Bernie bros dont like real liberal lifelong Democrats criticizing him.
FYI I supported Bernie in the primaries and voted for him.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)1. "Bernie bros" is a propaganda term suggesting people that don't exist in real life, at least, not in any significant number. I'd think, as someone who "supported Bernie," you'd know that.
2. Bernie was always an independent. I'd think you'd know that, as well.
3. Establishment Democrats have always criticized him; no surprise there.
4. This kind of establishment propaganda is what is going to defeat the party...again. And I'm frustrated and angry watching it happen.
PubliusEnigma
(1,583 posts)He is Trump's pawn.
PubliusEnigma
(1,583 posts)LWolf
(46,179 posts)I'm fine with that, as long as the nominee is not a neoliberal. I've got a whole list I'd be happy with. Sanders isn't on it. Not because he hasn't earned my support; he has. I just see his role going forward differently.
At the top of my list for 2020 is Nina Turner.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)and two are conspicuously exiting.
blake2012
(1,294 posts)And says hell continue fighting for you in the US Senate
konnie
(44 posts)people we are in a war. and war makes strange bedfellows.
the dnc just passed a rule that any candidate for the democratic party must belong to the party.
we live in a country based on a two party, winner take all system.
to that end, Bernie must officially join the Democratic party bringing his
person, his progressive ideas, his money, and his voters with him. even if it's only for the 2018/2020 election cycle.
we cannot afford to be splintered this time.
we cannot afford to be purists this time.
we must all pull together for the good of our country and our souls.
SHRED
(28,136 posts)I didn't see the 'D' after Sanders name.
Musta missed it.