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DonViejo

(60,536 posts)
Thu Jul 19, 2018, 02:07 PM Jul 2018

The Bigs Are Starting to Accept the Unimaginable - By Josh Marshall

July 19, 2018 1:40 pm

As I mentioned on Tuesday, I was very skeptical that President Trump’s stunning performance at Monday’s press conference would lead to any great shift on Capitol Hill or among core Trump voters. I remain skeptical. In fact, we’ve seen evidence from the Hill tending to validate that skepticism. Some Sens and Reps are blaming Trump critics for the last four days. Many more are accepting at face value the President’s wouldn/wouldn’t nonsense or simply saying there’s nothing they can do.

But I think there is some difference, perhaps even a watershed.

We’re not in the habit of thinking the unthinkable. The structure of the words themselves tells us that. Over the last eighteen months most respectable opinion in the US has stood aghast at President Trump’s bizarre and often inexplicable actions while yet interpreting them through series of only marginally and decreasingly plausible prisms.

One: His ego is so bound up with his presidential win that he fights any claims which suggest it may not have been a legitimate win. Okay, maybe. Two: President Trump is so set on dominance and loyalty that he may act out against those he perceives as threats, even if he hasn’t really done anything wrong. Eh, that’s a stretch. Three: Trump’s hands are clean on Russia. But he’s been knee-deep in money laundering and ties to organized crime figures for decades. His businesses can’t stand scrutiny from any serious criminal probe. True as far as it goes. Four: Maybe Trump’s just trolling us. Because everybody demands he not be friendly or accommodating to Putin, he does just that. Just to show he’s in charge. Highly dubious at this scale. Five: Maybe Trump didn’t cross any lines himself, at least not knowingly. But he can’t know others around him didn’t. I made a version of this argument myself more than a year ago. It’s just no longer plausible. Six: President Trump is simply an ideological kindred spirit. He simply supports Putinism with its mix of plutocracy and autocracy. Sure, Maybe. But again, not a sufficient explanation.

This is a lengthy list. But none of these are argument are really persuasive when you put together all the actions we’ve seen over the last eighteen months, and especially the ones of recent days. Here I think you can see a real shift. Over the last three days I’ve seen a number of establishment figures, the people always resist the outlandish explanations, who always stay basically conventional in their opinion and statements saying simply: Putin must have something on Trump.

Sometimes it’s specific, some kind of corrupt alliance; other times it’s amorphous, some kind of inexplicable hold Putin has over Trump by force of personality. But the kind of people who never said this kind of thing are saying it now. Somehow the President is compromised. Putin has something on him; or he has tempted his avarice with something. But there’s simply no innocent explanation for what we’re seeing.

That’s the shift. The Monday press conference made cautious, prominent people start to come to grips with the reality that Donald Trump, as crazy as it sounds and as difficult as it may be to believe, is under some kind of influence or control by a foreign adversary power, whether by fear or avarice or some other factor.

As yet, there’s little difference of behavior from elected Republicans. And I don’t expect any. What veteran foreign policy or diplomatic hands say on CNN is not the most important thing. But I think they are indicators of a change, a change of perception I expect is occurring among many who can’t yet speak.

###

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/the-bigs-are-starting-to-accept-the-unimaginable

53 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The Bigs Are Starting to Accept the Unimaginable - By Josh Marshall (Original Post) DonViejo Jul 2018 OP
K and R....thank you for posting...outstanding find.. no text. Stuart G Jul 2018 #1
In your list of "6 reasons why" lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #2
It's Josh Marshall's list. The OP is taken from TPM. nt tblue37 Jul 2018 #51
K&R!! Excellent post!! InAbLuEsTaTe Jul 2018 #3
I think that Trump has a deep, spiritual and psychological problem. Sophia4 Jul 2018 #4
I think number 5 on your list is very significant..very little empathy for others.. Stuart G Jul 2018 #5
I theorize that he was born that way, but I don't know. Sophia4 Jul 2018 #8
As a matter of fact -- RandomAccess Jul 2018 #9
Also, all the Scarsdale Jul 2018 #22
Love this! calimary Jul 2018 #29
Please do. That's why I make 'em and post 'em. RandomAccess Jul 2018 #34
He was always that way. catrose Jul 2018 #38
So why do they want someone THIS vulnerable as their President? FakeNoose Jul 2018 #6
Maybe because they (russki/US plutocrats) couldn't find anyone better? erronis Jul 2018 #12
If it hadn't been (t)Rump it would have been Rand Paul FakeNoose Jul 2018 #42
This just about sums it up! FM123 Jul 2018 #28
Love this too!!! calimary Jul 2018 #30
There's still one more step to take, Josh. coti Jul 2018 #7
DITTO! BigmanPigman Jul 2018 #10
You are exactly right. dchill Jul 2018 #18
Recall Putin also hacked into the RNC's emails OMGWTF Jul 2018 #11
That's always on my mind. Somebody needs to be ... dchill Jul 2018 #20
Because they've chosen sides. calimary Jul 2018 #31
I know. WikiNoLeaks. Sometimes. dchill Jul 2018 #36
Trump showed himself to be a willing and subservient captive of Vladimir Putin dalton99a Jul 2018 #13
Three "bigs" are not accepting anything LiberalLovinLug Jul 2018 #14
Poll: Huge GOP majority backs Trump's Putin performance Duppers Jul 2018 #23
True, but a poll I saw (maybe it's the same one) shows calimary Jul 2018 #32
Thanks, CaliMary. Duppers Jul 2018 #37
Bet these are Rs who now self-identify as Independent DeminPennswoods Jul 2018 #44
k and r niyad Jul 2018 #15
7. Trump* is knee-deep in RUSSIAN money laundering and mob ties, and has been... Raster Jul 2018 #16
Exactly! Duppers Jul 2018 #21
Makes total sense! karin_sj Jul 2018 #43
It's really hard to wrap one's mind around the DeminPennswoods Jul 2018 #17
It. Is. True... Raster Jul 2018 #25
When all other possibilities are eliminated, DeminPennswoods Jul 2018 #33
KnR Hekate Jul 2018 #19
#PutinsWinsAgain and the GOP is now The #PartyOfPutin BadGimp Jul 2018 #24
Two words: Jeffrey Epstein RedSpartan Jul 2018 #26
I suspect as much. Raster Jul 2018 #35
Prior to the election there was a brief troll fest on FarceBook regarding that guy. peekaloo Jul 2018 #41
+1. nt Honeycombe8 Jul 2018 #27
Josh Marshal isn't exactly a radical himself NastyRiffraff Jul 2018 #39
The Making of Trump guss Jul 2018 #40
Sally Yates was on Maddow last night DeminPennswoods Jul 2018 #45
They must speak... dajoki Jul 2018 #46
Got to get new glasses ashling Jul 2018 #47
Kicked and recommended. Uncle Joe Jul 2018 #48
Making Putin Great Again bucolic_frolic Jul 2018 #49
Many of us here on DU blue-wave Jul 2018 #50
Of late.. Crutchez_CuiBono Jul 2018 #52
well he grew up in a very bad environment ginnyinWI Jul 2018 #53

lapfog_1

(29,226 posts)
2. In your list of "6 reasons why"
Thu Jul 19, 2018, 02:17 PM
Jul 2018

I have to ask... why can't it be more than one?
Plus this... an absolute desire to be a monarch or dictator.

 

Sophia4

(3,515 posts)
4. I think that Trump has a deep, spiritual and psychological problem.
Thu Jul 19, 2018, 02:29 PM
Jul 2018

Probably born with a serious problem.

Then think about his family.

His brother committed suicide via alcohol if what we are told is correct. Problems in his family (unbridled greed and hate maybe) could have worsened the innate flaws in him.

Something very deep and personal wrong with Trump.

He seems to have very little empathy for others. His cruel jabs at other Republican candidates were a sign. The Republican electorate ate them up. (Why, we ask?)

We shall see what happens, but when Trump doesn't like a fact, he denies it, and that will eventually get him into serious trouble or, alternatively, more and more make him the object of ridicule.

It may be that the ridicule he points at others will point right back at him.

Stuart G

(38,449 posts)
5. I think number 5 on your list is very significant..very little empathy for others..
Thu Jul 19, 2018, 02:33 PM
Jul 2018

"He seems to have very little empathy for others. His cruel jabs at other Republican candidates were a sign."

catrose

(5,073 posts)
38. He was always that way.
Thu Jul 19, 2018, 10:05 PM
Jul 2018

It was always on display. And yet over 60 M people voted for him, telling us everything he'd do for them, when he'd never done anything for anyone besides himself in 70 years and clearly had no intention to change (or had the knowledge to do so if he wanted, which he never will).

FakeNoose

(32,777 posts)
6. So why do they want someone THIS vulnerable as their President?
Thu Jul 19, 2018, 02:38 PM
Jul 2018

It's obvious he's being blackmailed! This is not OK.
Trump needs to go, and I no longer care how.



erronis

(15,355 posts)
12. Maybe because they (russki/US plutocrats) couldn't find anyone better?
Thu Jul 19, 2018, 03:23 PM
Jul 2018

I sorta wonder how many leading (sic) contenders they approached to carry their (russki/pluto) mantle?

Oh, of course. I forgot that there were 16+ clowns crowded into that car. Some of them thought it was actually a talent show. Only one had the right talent - STUPID and GREEDY and totally AMORAL.

FakeNoose

(32,777 posts)
42. If it hadn't been (t)Rump it would have been Rand Paul
Thu Jul 19, 2018, 11:27 PM
Jul 2018

Putin already had Rand Paul on his payroll even before (t)Rump was on the scene. Other than that, I wouldn't know know what Kompromat Pootie has been collecting over the years. Probably something on a lot of them, is my guess.

Just sayin'

coti

(4,612 posts)
7. There's still one more step to take, Josh.
Thu Jul 19, 2018, 02:44 PM
Jul 2018

Yes, Putin certainly has all kind of kompromat on Trump, but in the end this is a willing conspiracy and long-time alliance they are engaging in. It's to their mutual benefit, Trump is no hostage.

dchill

(38,547 posts)
18. You are exactly right.
Thu Jul 19, 2018, 03:48 PM
Jul 2018

The guy is a born and bred, fully reinforced, completely rationalized asshole. As are his offspring. They will gleefully conspire against and attack any entity that stands against them or their interests, and their interests are all venal and illegitimate. America is a target, and their office is a disposable tool.

Our biggest problem is that this completely aligns with Republican Party values.

OMGWTF

(3,976 posts)
11. Recall Putin also hacked into the RNC's emails
Thu Jul 19, 2018, 03:22 PM
Jul 2018

and I'm betting he found some juicy kompromat on the entire Rethuglican party.

dchill

(38,547 posts)
20. That's always on my mind. Somebody needs to be ...
Thu Jul 19, 2018, 03:51 PM
Jul 2018

finding THAT dump. Why isn't WikiLeaks on that one?

dalton99a

(81,599 posts)
13. Trump showed himself to be a willing and subservient captive of Vladimir Putin
Thu Jul 19, 2018, 03:25 PM
Jul 2018

and a traitor to the United States of America

LiberalLovinLug

(14,176 posts)
14. Three "bigs" are not accepting anything
Thu Jul 19, 2018, 03:30 PM
Jul 2018

Trump's 80% of support from Republicans
And Trump's cheerleaders in the House and Senate
And Trump's propaganda "news" outlet

I think there is a long ways to go. For years, decades. To deprogram, if its even possible, or if it even can be done with Sinclair's Trump TV soon to infiltrate most homes. And do you think Trump would stop tweeting even IF he lost in 2020?

Duppers

(28,127 posts)
23. Poll: Huge GOP majority backs Trump's Putin performance
Thu Jul 19, 2018, 04:09 PM
Jul 2018
79% !!!!!!

https://www.axios.com/republicans-poll-donald-trump-press-conference-putin-5776322f-a483-4e21-b50c-028799b08367.html

This poll foreshadows the coming national drama. Every piece of data, and virtually every public action of elected Republican officials, shows Trump will have overwhelming and probably unbreakable party support, regardless of what Robert Mueller finds with his Russia probe.



REGARDLESS of Mueller's findings!




calimary

(81,511 posts)
32. True, but a poll I saw (maybe it's the same one) shows
Thu Jul 19, 2018, 06:57 PM
Jul 2018

he’s really driving the independent voters away. The disapproval numbers among independents are comfortably over 50%. That marks a pretty big shift. Had been hovering around the “meh” levels, kinda evenly divided - but now it looks like they care - a LOT.

Duppers

(28,127 posts)
37. Thanks, CaliMary.
Thu Jul 19, 2018, 08:45 PM
Jul 2018

That does really help. I just heard of a personal story of someone leaving the R party and she voted for Trump. Yes, this is a very big deal, so thanks for the reminder.

My idiot neighbors are still republicans; one still has his TRump sign out, just to irritate us, I think.

Raster

(20,998 posts)
16. 7. Trump* is knee-deep in RUSSIAN money laundering and mob ties, and has been...
Thu Jul 19, 2018, 03:45 PM
Jul 2018

...for decades. In addition, Putin*/KGB/FSB have major kompromat on Trump*, most likely relating to sex with an underage Russian Lolita, you know, the kind of perverse honeytrap the KGB specialized in for years.

Guilty, Guilty and Guilty.

Trump* IS A RUSSIAN ASSET, and has been for years. Come on people, this is really not that hard to grasp.

DeminPennswoods

(15,290 posts)
17. It's really hard to wrap one's mind around the
Thu Jul 19, 2018, 03:48 PM
Jul 2018

idea the President of the United States is, in fact, an agent of Russia regardless if it's wittingly or unwittingly.

Even I, as someone who despises Trump, have a hard time believing, let alone, saying aloud Trump is an active asset of Russia, of Vladimir Putin. Yet all the evidence tells me it must be true, no matter how outlandish.

Raster

(20,998 posts)
25. It. Is. True...
Thu Jul 19, 2018, 04:33 PM
Jul 2018

...Trump* is NOWHERE near the businessperson he purports to be. Russian cash and largesse have kept the foul ship tRump* afloat for years. This is why he would rather die than show his taxes. And most important, tRump* has allowed himself to be compromised in at least one --probably more-- extremely unflattering and probably illegal positions.

Yes, it boggles the mind. This tRump* "affair" is akin to an addiction and/or an abusive relationship. The healing doesn't begin until the truth is revealed and then dealt with.

Donald J. Trump*, 45th POTUS IS A RUSSIAN ASSET.

It is what it is.

DeminPennswoods

(15,290 posts)
33. When all other possibilities are eliminated,
Thu Jul 19, 2018, 06:58 PM
Jul 2018

whatever is left must be the truth. So, it is with Trump. You're entirely correct.

peekaloo

(22,977 posts)
41. Prior to the election there was a brief troll fest on FarceBook regarding that guy.
Thu Jul 19, 2018, 11:03 PM
Jul 2018

Of course it was to smear the Clintons.

Makes sense now.

NastyRiffraff

(12,448 posts)
39. Josh Marshal isn't exactly a radical himself
Thu Jul 19, 2018, 10:34 PM
Jul 2018

He's typically careful about what he writes. But he's right; there has been a shift--in the media, in former and even current government officials, willing to say what used to be unthinkable. Dan Coates, for example, seems to be done pretending this isn't weird. Witness his interview with Andrea Mitchell today.

guss

(239 posts)
40. The Making of Trump
Thu Jul 19, 2018, 10:56 PM
Jul 2018

There was a Show
That was called Making of a Serial Killer.
I think Trump has the same profile.
Along with some of his supporters.
Hes one of us. Mantra, Gives them like a group therapy.
Being that kind of OK for his base.

DeminPennswoods

(15,290 posts)
45. Sally Yates was on Maddow last night
Fri Jul 20, 2018, 07:24 AM
Jul 2018

In the context of answering a question about how Russia might blackmail Flynn (they knew about him lying about discussing lifting sanctions), she said it could range from mafia-like threats to the very subtle hints that one's reputation could be ruined. She continued those threats might not cause you to take an overt action to help Putin, but could make one do things so as not to offend Putin. As she was ticking through her answer, I thought how much this explained Trump's actions although she wasn't talking about him specifically.

Thinking about how Trump is, his overwhelming need for attention and his persona as a great businessman and dealmaker, what would be the worst thing that could happen to him? To make him not want to offend Putin/Russia? To me, it would be Putin knowing that he's neither of those two things, knowing that he is in hock to him up to his ears and that at any time Putin could easily put this information out and explode the myths Trump created around himself that sustain him.

dajoki

(10,678 posts)
46. They must speak...
Fri Jul 20, 2018, 09:39 AM
Jul 2018

and it must be now. People who know things must come forward, this charade can go on no longer.

blue-wave

(4,365 posts)
50. Many of us here on DU
Wed Jul 25, 2018, 11:27 AM
Jul 2018

called out the traitor and treason thing months ago. That doesn't mean we aren't cautious. Maybe we just recognize grave danger before others recognize the same.


"The Monday press conference made cautious, prominent people start to come to grips with the reality that Donald Trump, as crazy as it sounds and as difficult as it may be to believe, is under some kind of influence or control by a foreign adversary power"


To those "cautious, prominent" people now coming to the party of crazy trumpianism recognition, I do welcome you. I guess you're just fashionably late, huh?

Crutchez_CuiBono

(7,725 posts)
52. Of late..
Wed Jul 25, 2018, 11:38 AM
Jul 2018

America has lost several airplane/helicopter contracts...(to name a few) and putin and china stepped in and took the business. Billions of dollars in revenue lost It's not a coincidence. dt is probably getting kick-backs on all the new contracts through paying back loans to putin.
The farmers who lost revenue from soybeans and corn etc,....well...congress FOUND some money laying around to give them some welfare. They'll be voting repub again.

ginnyinWI

(17,276 posts)
53. well he grew up in a very bad environment
Wed Jul 25, 2018, 12:01 PM
Jul 2018

Cruel father, cold mother, associating with mobsters and criminals. His values were all screwed up and he was emotionally damaged. Even though rich, that's not enough to be happy. He's an unhappy man never content.

Add to that his whole life wheeling and dealing and failing at business.

A very touchy, self centered personality and very spiteful. His number one target of that spite is Obama and anything and anyone associated with him.

Sure he's compromised by Russia. He's in so deep with the money laundering and corruption.

He does not care about anything but himself and what's good for him, and will fight for it. Will certainly lie for it.

Why is he president? He wanted the power and the win. He did it by being a skillful liar and possibly a cheat with the help of Russia. He picked off his competition in the primary season one by one by ridicule and lying. Has no shame.

Whenever he says something, even an offhand comment like saying he's happy to be president and having a good time, ask yourself why he thought to make that comment. It's probably because the opposite is true and he wants to change reality.

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