Should large potentially dangerous dog breeds such as Pit Bulls and Presa Canarios require a license

[Snake Alchemist]

to own?

My opinion is yes. Similar to having a commercial driving license for large vehicles. Do I think all of these dogs are killers? No of course not, but the average person is ill-equipped to properly train these animals. Many dog owners are not suited to train a small dog, let alone a large, potentially dangerous breed. I know there will be posts from people that claim that their pit bull rescues infants from burning buildings every weekend, but that is not really the point.

[DrDan]

1. absolutely!

[comipinko]

2. better yet, a license to live. And they should be hard to obtain.Very hard.

[quinnox]

3. absolutely, and that is the least that should be done

Furthermore, any pit bull should be destroyed on sight if it attacks a human for any reason. I'm talking guns drawn by the police and deadly force authorized.

I know some communities have banned pit bulls, and to me this is the best solution. But failing that, I like the idea of having to get a license.

[baldguy]

16. Breed bans are the most extreme form of stupidity there is.

Because they don't address the real problem - THE IRRESPONSIBLE OWNERS

[TheWraith]

22. What do you know--you and I agree on something for once.

Completely aside from any arguments about the breeds... the only thing that a de facto ban on a dog breed would do is shift breeding underground to people who are MORE likely to breed dogs for aggression. To believe a ban would actually work, you have to believe that there's an epidemic of regular family pets suddenly going Cujo and killing everything around them, which simply is not the case. Sure, you HEAR about those a lot, but that doesn't mean that they're statistically significant. Far from it--like the case of the missing pretty white blonde teenager, you hear about it because it makes a good story, not because it's common or relevant.

[randome]

74. So it's okay if people are maimed or killed.

As long as the owners are held responsible?

It doesn't matter who SHOULD be held responsible. The naked truth is that certain dogs are more prone to maim or kill. Ban them. And grandfather the ban so that those who are current owners can keep theirs.

[baldguy]

75. Banning particular breeds doesn't work, because that's not the problem.

It's people who refuse to train their dogs, or train them improperly.

[randome]

76. And when they refuse...

...people are maimed or killed. I'm looking at the result, not where the blame should lie. You want to keep people safe? Can you force people to train their dogs or to always keep them safely away from others? No. The only other option is to ban the animals.

I don't think America would miss having pit bulls in the country any more than anyone would miss sesame seeds.

[Gormy Cuss]

79. People would miss sesame seeds

and banning certain breeds (on in the case of pit bulls, dogs that people think are a certain breed) will only move the problem to other breeds. Before pitbull types were the rage, Dobermans, Rottweilers, and German Shepherds each had a turn as the preferred bad ass dog. I'm sure they can be substituted again once the pitbull types have all been banned.

[randome]

85. Hmmm.

[uppityperson]

117. Are you saying every dog of a certain size should be banned?

Since larger dogs are more capable of killing humans, they all should be banned? What size dog should be allowed?

[MattBaggins]

172. The morons will move on to the next breed du jour

Ban pit bulls and they will go back to rotts.

[Liberty Belle]

130. WRONG! THat is the biggest lie promulgated by promoters of these breeds.

In the past year we've had to report on at least 2 deaths from pit bull maulings locally. ALL THREE were family pets, not dogs trained to be mean. One killed a baby. Another pair killed an elderly woman, ripping off 2 limbs and she lost a 3rd before dying months later.

[baldguy]

134. Links?

I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't Pit Bulls at all (since media reports tend to be wildly inaccurate in determining dog breeds), and that they weren't "family" dogs, and that they weren't trained & socialized properly.

"Each year, 4.7 million Americans are bitten by dogs. These bites result in approximately 16 fatalities; about 0.0002 percent of the total number of people bitten. These relatively few fatalities offer the only available information about breeds involved in dog bites."

http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/dogbites/dog-bite-related-fatalities/

That's right: 16 fatalities out of 4.7 mill incidents (reported) out of 310 mill people. You're more likely to be killed by your spouse than your dog, even if you have a pack of Pit Bulls living with you.

[rdking647]

144. in 2011 there where 14 people killed by dogs in the US

its not a problem

[Snake Alchemist]

146. How many were injured? nt

[rdking647]

151. how many where killed or injured riding a bicycle?

should we ban them or require licenses?

[Snake Alchemist]

157. Can bicycles run off and maim another person? nt

[MattBaggins]

173. Give Stephen King a few months and a typewriter

[MattBaggins]

171. That is not "naked truth"

that is a misconception and an urban myth.

It used to be german shepards, than pinchers, than rottweillers. Idiot tough guys get the latest "cool" breed of dog and then raise it to be an asshole just like them. Reminds me of college days when every frat boy moron owned a rottweiller.

Pit Bulls are not worse than any other dog. It is the all the fault of the owners.

[ProfessorGAC]

18. Just Happened In Chicago

Early yesterday morning, a sixty-something jogger got attacked by two PB's. Two guys tried to help out with a baseball bat and a pool cue, but still couldn't stop the dogs. One guy went back in to get a second bat and when he came out the cops showed up. The dogs went after the cops and they shot both dogs dead.

Those dogs were clearly out of control. They were repeatedly hit and still wouldn't leave. Somebody is a terrible, terrible dog owner.

Last note: They said the dogs were untagged so they've got no way of knowing who owns the dog, so far.

I don't have a link. I didn't see it in the paper, i saw on WGN news while i was getting an oil change.
GAC

[quinnox]

21. wow

These pit bull stories are scary, they seem to be taking place more and more too.

[intheflow]

71. Not true.

They are just reported more frequently than other dog bite incidents.

[DrDan]

136. any link to substantiate that? (an objective link, that is) nt

[baldguy]

139. National Canine Research Council

http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/dogbites/whatisadogbite/

...Recent research has confirmed that it is impossible to breed label dogs of unknown history and genetics solely on the basis of their appearance. And at least half of the dogs in the United States are mixed breed dogs! Nevertheless, animal controls and shelter workers continue to assign single breed descriptors to mixed breed dogs.

Even if visual breed identifications were accurate, dog bite tallies still would not provide evidence that some breeds bit more frequently than others. Specialists who analyze dog bite tallies have pointed out that breed populations within a given jurisdiction are not known; therefore, incident rates cannot be calculated.

...

[DrDan]

145. from your site

"no credible evidence has been presented to demonstrate
that any particular breeds, including Rottweilers, American Staffordshire
Terriers, and American Pit Bull Terriers are overrepresented among
biting dogs."

[baldguy]

152. Quote the full paragraph, rather than misrepresenting the paper by cherry-picking one sentence.

http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/uploaded_files/tinymce/Dog%20Bites%20Problems%20and%20Solutions.pdf

Dog bite fatalities are extremely rare, accounting for about one in 167,000 deaths per year in the U.S. Dog bites represent 0.2 percent of emergency room visits. They are comparable in incidence to (but less severe than) accidents involving many common household objects, such as chairs. Attempts have been made to reduce this injury rate by banning breeds of dogs considered dangerous. However, follow-up studies show no impact on bite rates following breed-ban legislation.

The statement in your post is about scientific studies, and can't be applied to general, non-scientific, mis-informed media reports. IOW, while pit bulls ARE erroneously overrepresented in media reports, they ARE NOT in actual studies with actual evidence which prove that pit bulls aren't any more likely to bite than other breeds.

In the same document, the NCRC specifically addresses the problem of identifying the breed of a specific individual dog:

The best known study of fatal dog bites has attributed more fatalities to dogs identified as “pit bull type” dogs over the past two decades than to any single breed. News reports of dog attacks often identify the dog or dogs involved as pit bulls. This has led to a widely held perception that some breeds of dogs present a greater risk of injuring people than others and therefore should be eliminated from the population as a public safety risk, even though the researchers themselves caution strongly against such an approach. One of the co-authors of the study, veterinarian behaviorist Goleb, has stated, “It is frustrating for me personally because people who want to enact Breed Specific Legislation keep using the report to try and make a case against pit bulls. The whole point of our summary was to explain you can’t do that. (emphasis from source) Nevertheless, hundreds of municipalities have instituted statutes that prohibit or limit the ownership of pit bulls and occasionally other breeds, most commonly Rottweilers. Numerous objections have been made to this approach, based on lack of reliable evidence that pit bulls are overrepresented among injurious biters.

And the recommendations in the same paper specifically DO NOT advocate breed-bans, as you do:

5. Recommendations ..........................................................................17-19

5.1 Effective legislation ......................................................................17

5.1.1 Enforcement of existing dog regulations ..........................17
5.1.2 Limit injury prevention proscriptions to
dogs who have bitten injuriously ......................................17
5.1.3 Tracking of dogs with one injurious bite ............................17
5.1.4 Bites in the context of other negligent infractions..............18

5.2 Focus prevention resources on education ..................................18

5.2.1 Educating children and adults to behave
safely around dogs ..........................................................18
5.2.2 Educating dog guardians in puppy-raising techniques
to minimize aggression ....................................................18
5.2.3 Incentives for breeders to select for low reactivity ............19

I guess actually reading a few pages is too much work for you, huh?

[DrDan]

154. done - why must you ALWAYS resort to insults?

and I stand by my earlier post.

"no credible evidence has been presented to demonstrate
that any particular breeds, including Rottweilers, American Staffordshire
Terriers, and American Pit Bull Terriers are overrepresented among
biting dogs."

The point being discussed was whether Pit Bulls get a bad rap in bite reporting (not solutions to the obvious problem). Obviously they do not - evidence does not suggest Pit Bulls are "overrepresented" among biting dogs.

Anyway - done. I refuse to be subjected to your insults.

[baldguy]

155. What insult? From your post it's obvious you didn't read the paper.

Otherwise you would have known that the sentence you cherry-picked describes studies which do not support the claim that pit bulls bite more than other dogs. It's simple statement of fact.

If you're insulted that facts don't support your prejudices - well, that's a different problem.

[DrDan]

36. agree - the ban is the best solution

[hobbit709]

4. Here we go again.

[izquierdista]

5. How about large potentially dangerous human breeds?

Such as the Cage Fighting White Supremacist or the Cave Dwelling Sex Pervert?

[Mr Dixon]

9. Agreed

Very good answer, when will people understand that the breed is not the problem, http://www.cesarsway.com/ Cesar millan has been on air for like 7 years and people are still clueless, be the pack leader or don't get a dog, no matter what breed.

[Snake Alchemist]

11. Yes, Cesar Milan is a good representative of the average dog owner. nt

[Snake Alchemist]

10. The similarities are eery. nt

[HuckleB]

43. What does a classic red herring have to do with the question?

[Marrah_G]

64. Sadly it's illegal to spay and nueter those breeds.

[roody]

77. Spay and neuter illegal? Please explain.

[donheld]

135. They were talking about banning certain human beings who tend towards violence.

You also cannot spay or neuter those human beings.

[Marrah_G]

150. It was a joke..........

[ScreamingMeemie]

6. Worst dog attack I ever saw was a poodle. n/t

[roody]

7. Mandatory spay and neuter would be a good start---for all dogs.

[11 Bravo]

8. So you're in favor of the extinction of the species?

[procon]

12. Oh noes!

You made me laugh... if I had 'em, I'd be clutching my dangly bits too! LOL x10

[baldguy]

13. In NY every dog requires a license.

And you should know that every dog, not properly trained, is capable of being dangerous. EVERY DOG.

Also, How would you determine what defines a "Pit Bull"? A miniscule number of pure-bred AKC registered APBTs, ASTs and SBTs are responsible for any injuries to humans. The dogs which do cause problems are mixes and crossbreeds.

THE MOST RELIABLE DETERMINING FACTOR IN ATTACKS BY CANINES IS THE LACK OF TRAINING GIVEN TO THE DOG BY IT'S OWNERS. [BIG]NOT THE BREED!!![/BIG]

If you're worried about "dangerous" dogs, BSLs are not a solution. The reason is that such laws target the wrong thing, are based on unfounded fears & misinformed hype by the media & so exasperate the problems they attempt to solve.

Better to require training & certification for all dog owners.

[Snake Alchemist]

15. Perhaps it would be best done by weight.

You can't deny that there is a difference between 100lb dog attack and a 10lb dog attack. I would not be against having a license for all dogs with training required. It could be like a driver's license with periodic renewal required.

[baldguy]

19. But you would require a well-trained 100lb dog to be licensed, but not a 10lb killer?

The difference is the training. Period. There's no reliable way to predict how an individual dog will generally behave based upon it's breed, or it's size. Or it's age or the color of it's fur, for that matter. What does help predict behavior is the degree & type of training the dog has received.

Stop looking for solutions which don't address the real problem: The irresponsible OWNER.

[Snake Alchemist]

25. So you don't accept the fact that larger dogs can potentially do a lot more damage? nt

[baldguy]

29. An untrained, poorly trained or maliceously trained dog can & will do more damage

than a well-trained dog - of any size.

[Snake Alchemist]

34. Who's arguing against that? nt

[baldguy]

42. You're basing your standards on things that have no bearing on the problem: breed or size.

Neither of these is as much a determinant regarding the supposed potential for danger from a dog as the amount of proper training & socialization the dog has received is.

[Snake Alchemist]

44. Poor training plus large size is a greater danger.

A you honestly arguing that is not the case?

A poorly trained Yorkie is a few small lacerations. A poorly trained Pit Bull is a few large amputations.

[HuckleB]

46. Either way, both issues cause unnecessary doctor visits.

It's time to regulate dogs, and make owners more accountable.

[baldguy]

55. ANY inproperly trained dog is a danger & can kill.

When I was a kid, my mother had a Silky Terrier>



He was 9 lbs. She never trained it, treated it like a baby & spoiled it rotten. Nobody could pick it up, it tried to bite everyone in the family. And when it escaped it attacked the neighbor's 45 lb Akita & killed a 15 lb cat.


My current dog is afraid of balloons & cowers behind me when she sees them>



She's a 60 lb Pit Bull and wouldn't hurt a fly. Literally.

[Snake Alchemist]

56. How many family members were lost to the Yorkie? nt

[baldguy]

61. Silky, not a Yorkie. They're different breeds.

And the reason my father finally got rid of it was because it attacked my niece, who was 10 at the time. She still has the scar on her neck.

Proper training & socialization is required for EVERY dog. Size & breed make no difference.

[Snake Alchemist]

78. So incredibly poor training resulted in minor injuries for with that breed? nt

[rdking647]

148. in 2008 a jack russel terrier killed someone

[LanternWaste]

69. Hence the reasons many dog fighting rings features poodles and yorkies...?

Hence the reasons many dog fighting rings features poodles and yorkies...?

[intheflow]

72. That probably has more to do with the human perception that size matters.

Bigger = Badder to many people.

[Snake Alchemist]

80. There are many breeds larger than Pit Bulls that are not used in dog fights normally. nt

[intheflow]

83. Also usually much harder to get than pit bulls.

When did you last see an Irish Wolf Hound at a pound? Their size, breeder price, and relative scarcity preclude many larger breeds from being used. Pit bulls are disposable dogs to so many people, they're easier to find and breed exclusively by assholes for fighting.

[Snake Alchemist]

87. So the answer is to make Pit Bulls harder to get?

Your logic seems to be going in that direction.

[intheflow]

133. Nice straw man.

My logic wasn't going anywhere near there. I was merely commenting on the fact that there are many reasons why pits are used over other breeds.

[Snake Alchemist]

138. I was not the one that claimed Irish Wolf Hounds are not used in dog fighting because they are hard

to obtain.

[MattBaggins]

174. They are not the breed du jour

ban pit bulls and they might though

[Marrah_G]

66. Size does indeed matter

I would much rather deal with an aggressive Pomeranian then an aggressive Malamute.

There is a big difference among breeds and temperaments within the dog world. Failure to realize that is why there is such a big issue with certain breeds. My guy has a Malamute, 6 months old and she could do alot of damage if she was not being trained on a daily basis, consistently, by everyone in the house. If she were allowed to think for one minute that she was in charge, she would be a very dangerous animal. It took alot to even be chosen as her family, the breeder was very careful to make sure that not only was it a suitable home, but that it was a suitable owner with a knowledge of the breed and how difficult they can be.

[XemaSab]

20. I talked about my dogs downthread

The 105-pounder is a gentle giant. He's too lazy to attack anyone on his own.

The 35-pounder has the motivation and the dedication to carry out an attack and do real damage.

A golden retriever can easily be twice the size of a pit bull, but nobody is saying that they're a killer breed.

[Snake Alchemist]

26. What do you think the damage would look like if the 105lb dog attacked? nt

[XemaSab]

33. I think any of my dogs could kill a person

[Snake Alchemist]

37. Would there be no differences in time needed?

See post 18 above. Would your dogs be impervious to attacks with baseball bats and pool cues?

[baldguy]

49. And this is how the legend of the "vicious killer Pit Bull" has come about.

The original story mentions only a bat. No "pool cues". The dogs have no papers & they aren't registered or licensed in any way. Most likely they're mixes or crossbreeds. Also, no mention of what kind of training they may have had, or whether they could be classed as "resident" dogs - kept on the property for guarding & protection (most likely), or "family" dogs - raised & socialized to be around people in the house.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-jogger-critically-injured-in-attack-by-2-pit-bulls-on-lakefront-20120102,0,2942591.story

They were NOT cuddly family pets that suddenly & without warning turned evil.

Tragedies like occur when people don't properly train & socialize the animal. AND CAN HAPPEN WITH ANY BREED OF DOG!

[Snake Alchemist]

51. This one was trained to hate trampolines.

http://www.kold.com/Global/story.asp?S=8719395&nav=menu86_2

Who said anything about turning evil? Dogs can react to certain stimuli that humans do not consider. Emotion seems to be clouding your judgment. I have a 50 lb shepherd mix among other dogs. I recognize that she can potentially be very dangerous even though she has never hurt a person before. I would be happy to get a license if required to do so.

[baldguy]

58. And "vicious killer Pit Bull" stories circulate around & around & around. This story is 3 yrs old.

That being said, this is a classic irresponsible owner with an untrained animal. NEVER leave a child alone & unsupervised with a dog.

[Snake Alchemist]

60. So you would agree that a license and training may have helped this pet owner? nt

[baldguy]

62. I've already said as much.

Based on this incident, and others like it, would you confiscate & put down any Molosser-type dogs (Pit Bulls, Presa Canarios, bulldogs, mastiffs, etc) whose owner doesn't meet your restrictions. Even if they're some unrelated dog in a different environment and regardless of what their past & current behavior was?

That's what breed-specific legislation does.

[Snake Alchemist]

81. Sure, along with German Shepherds, Rottweilers and a few others.

No license, no dog. I would be all for relocating these animals rather than euthanizing them though.

[baldguy]

95. The only words for that are stupid & insane.

Because the core problem you're trying to address - dogs injuring humans - doesn't lie with the breed of the dog. It's lies with it's behavior. If you don't address that, you're not addressing the problem. The only way is to ensure the dog - ALL dogs - are properly trained & socialized.

[Snake Alchemist]

96. Until you have another method to assure that people are trained to train the dogs, then licensing

is your only option for enforcement.

[baldguy]

98. And in NY every dog needs to have a license.

[Snake Alchemist]

101. So you agree that licensing is the correct response?

Your disagreement is with the amount of licensing?

[baldguy]

104. I disagree vehemently with breed-specific laws.

They don't address the problems they're advertized as solving; they punish people & their dogs of a particular breed which are not part of the problem, and they do nothing about vicious dogs who aren't subject to the law.

Laws based on irrational fears and ill-informed hype will - by necessity - create bad laws. BSLs are bad laws.

[Snake Alchemist]

113. so you view licenses as punishment.

What is your solution?

[baldguy]

116. 5132771 <- my dog's NYS Dept of Agriculture & Markets license number.

Every dog gets one. If you want to single out one breed of dog for additional restrictions based on fear, ignorance and general stupidity - then of course it would be an unwarranted punishment by any measure you'd care to make.

[Snake Alchemist]

123. so NYS licenses require a specific test or class? NT

[baldguy]

126. No. But the city animal shelter where requires that their animals (dogs & cats) all to be nuetered.

And you need to have adequate space for the animal. (I have a fenced-in yard.) And if you have other animals, the shelter has to supervise their first meeting to ensure they're compatible. These are all only policies for the shelter, but I would have no problem for them being the law.

What NYS prohibits is breed-specific legislation. If the city or county requires special instruction for dogs or their owners, then it's going to apply to ALL dogs and ALL owners - sorry, but they can't single out the latest "monster dog" breed that ignorant Fox watchers have been conditioned to be afraid of.

[Snake Alchemist]

128. So it really is a tax and not a license. NT

[XemaSab]

57. I think it's as much an issue of temperament as size

A bulldog, a border collie, and a springer spaniel might all be 35 lbs, but they have different personalities and you wouldn't expect them to all be suited for the same tasks.

[lapislzi]

53. Goldens can deliver a bite

Their "soft mouths" are not so soft when they are clamped around your forearm because Daddy thinks it's fun to "play" that way. The animal must be trained to "release" or "DROP" the object.

I've spent hours and hours on the "drop" command with my retriever mix.

[sorefeet]

14. I don't know

I swore I would never have one. Some guy dropped an 8 month old pup that had been rescued from an abuser, they were beating him and burning his little tender belly with cigarettes to make him mean. I was supposed to watch him for 2 weeks while the guy found an apartment, that was 4 years ago. He is non aggresive unless your a mouse, very good mouser. He is scared of little dogs, he ends up in my lap if they attack him. He does weigh 100 pounds and would be dangerous if allowed. But as is he is a spoiled baby, if I raise my voice it hurts his feelings. So no all aren't bad but can be because of their size. You ought to see the scar on my leg from the neighbors 12 pound pekenese. IF Odie ever get aggresive or even iffy that would be the end of him. Neutering helps a whole lot too. If he had his gonads he would be a totally different dog also.

[XemaSab]

17. All dogs are *potentially* dangerous

My big guy is a springer spaniel/golden retriever mix, and he's 105 lbs.

Then there's my cattle dog/boxer mix who is 65 lbs.

Then there is my English shepherd who is 35 lbs.

If someone broke into the house, my dogs would MESS THE PERSON UP.


That being said, I don't think that breed specific legislation is enforceable.

[HillWilliam]

89. My girls aren't even "potentially" dangerous

I wholeheartedly agree with you, XemaSab, that breed-specific legislation isn't enforceable and it doesn't at all address the problem of irresponsible owners.

#1, Doralee, is a cattledog/springer mix, the elderly queen of the house. She is opinionated, but abhors violence of any kind. She gets upset when my partner and I are joking too loud and being boisterous. (This house is full of laughter, but Madame prefers her quiet. It's a cattledog thing.)
#2, Ashley-Marie, is a GSD/BC mix, daddy's girl. Even when provoked, she prefers to go behind dad's legs rather than confront.
#3, Callalily, is a Kuvasz/collie mix. She barks a lot outside, but is too much of a princess to bite anything. This one was horribly abused when she was a puppy. It took 2 months to get the nasty collar she came with off of her. She adores children, especially little girls who tend to want to pet her and coo over her because she IS a gorgeous girl. I'm so proud of my dainty lady, Cinderella for sure.
#4, Emmaline, is a half-weimaraner, half rottie/bc/heinz 57 mix. We can her the whine-araner because she squeaks if everything in her world isn't just right. We call her Emmalump when she settles on the couch and won't budge. 75# of velvet rock with a bitty baby girl inside.
#5, Julie-Claire, is a purebred BC. She's a pistol, but the smallest one of the bunch.
#6, Maxie, is a BC/Boxer mix, a handsome eldergal. She's bright and sweet, but she's getting on and would much rather snooze than argue about anything.

All a rescues, some from some pretty rotten situations, well-trained, and loving. If someone broke in, they'd point out the silver for a cookie and a kind word. If threatened, they'd pee the floor and run, no doubt about it. Except for the BC, they range from 55 to 75 pounds, yet they're extremely gentle (all were trained and socialized as aide dogs even though only two work public access). They operate on praise and would do anything to please, knowing I'd *never* ask of them something they were incapable or unwilling to do.

You just can't go by size or breed. It's a horrible sweeping generalization to say "All examples of breed X are dangerous." It's also stupid and wilfully ignorant.

[Kingofalldems]

23. Training should be required for owners of pit bulls

Both the owner and the dog. Pit bulls instinctively bite and hold on---extremely dangerous animals potentially.

[pintobean]

28. That's just blatant breedism.

[Kingofalldems]

32. OK any bull dog breed.

Cesar Milan has spoken about this before. All dogs and owners need training but especially bull dog breeds.

Breedism?

[pintobean]

35.

[baldguy]

30. My Pit Bull can't play tug-o-war for shit.

She always lets go. So much for supposed "instinct".

[Marrah_G]

68. Thats a good thing

Tug of war is a bad game to play with dogs and they should never be allowed to win it

[HillWilliam]

92. Training should be required for **ALL** dog owners

I've raised and trained dogs for 30 years. Every single time I'm asked to correct a behavior or set of behaviors, I have to start with the human. It's the human's job to raise a dog right, just like it's a human's job to raise their own kids right. Nine times out of nine-and-a-quarter, correcting the human will correct the dog eventually. Nine times out of nine, "bad" dog behaviors are the direct result of either the human's ignorance or lack of motivation to teach a dog what is expected of a good citizen.

I'll tell you this: I'm a damnsight more afraid of little yappy dogs than I am of *any* large breed. Little dogs tend to be overbred, over-spoiled, under-trained. They're fast and unpredictable. They're most often vicious largely from a lack of supervision and proper training. I'll approach a large dog a helluvalot faster than I will a little one. Ever. I'll say it again: I've been raising and training a helluva long time.

It's irresponsible to take on a living, breathing thing without understanding its needs and how to make sure it becomes and remains a good citizen, REGARDLESS of breed.

[uppityperson]

118. No more so than any other breed of dog. And yes, that is breedism.

psst, they also don't have locking jaws.

[Snake Alchemist]

124. the fact that larger dogs trend to be more dangerous

Is for some reason very scary to some people.

[uppityperson]

125. Yet the argument is not about larger dogs but pit bulls. There are dogs much larger than pits.

Why no outcry against them? I guess then you think dogs of a certain size should be banned?

What about Great Danes, Newfoundlands, Wolfhounds, Mastiffs,St Bernards? I see you do include Presa Canarios, but what about other large dogs?

If you look at this list, you will see pitbulls in the 5th column of 8. Should all dogs of columns 5-8 be banned?
http://www.dogsindepth.com/dog_breed_size_chart.html

[Snake Alchemist]

127. I said I was very open to expanding the requirement

To all large dogs. You could do it for every dog, but it would be a waste if resources.

[uppityperson]

132. You want to ban all dogs larger than what? A beagle? Oops, Am Staff terriers are in that

size group. Let's go one smaller to...nothing larger than a corgi, or a dandi dinmont, or a pomeranian?
http://www.dogsindepth.com/dog_breed_size_chart.html

[Snake Alchemist]

137. No ban. Licensing with required training. nt.

[uppityperson]

165. should smaller dogs require licensing, owners get training? Who will provide the training?

How will it be regulated, who will be responsible for making sure all dogs get licensed, all owners get training? Or you do mean all dogs of a certain size need required training? In which case, who will do it, how will it be paid for, how regulated?

Finally, why stop at a certain size dog? What about mutts? Will height or weight be the determining factor?

[Snake Alchemist]

166. Same way all licensing is regulated. Government oversight.

I would think all dogs over a certain size would be a good policy, but I'm sure it would need tweaking.

[undeterred]

24. Enforcement of all dog licensing through veterinarians would be the place to start.

I think dog fighting should be illegal, so there should be NO DOGS raised for aggressive purposes. If it is a police working dog, it still has to be trained to be aggressive only on command.

[HuckleB]

45. How would that help?

Any enforcement would have to go through emergency rooms, if it were going to be effective.

[greytdemocrat]

27. Well...

I certainly would not blame an insurance company from denying HO coverage to a Presa owner. These dogs are Pit Bulls on drugs, trust me I've seen a couple at my dog park and the owner was asked not to return with them.

As to a license...I guess a city could try it but I doubt it would work.

[closeupready]

31. I'm inclined to say yes.

nt

[KamaAina]

38. You really shouldn't lump pit bulls in with Presa Canarios

for those of you playing along at home, a Presa Canario was the perp in the infamous San Francisco fatal dog-mauling incident a few years ago.

By contrast, most pit bulls are good pets and are surrprisingly sweet-natured, given all the bad pub. The exceptions are those who have been trained by humans (?) to be killers.

[Snake Alchemist]

41. Maybe this one was trained to hate trampolines

http://www.kold.com/Global/story.asp?S=8719395&nav=menu86_2

[DFab420]

39. Hell. No. Where do we draw the line?? How is it we call for a free and open society

But then start licensing what kind of dog you can have.

Soon you'll need a L-21 and B-21a form just to take them for a walk in public??

There are laws already in place if people have dangerous dogs that do something awful.

[HuckleB]

40. Far more regulation of dogs as pets is needed.

If any product caused as many visits to the ER as dogs, it would be in more than serious trouble. Yet, pet owners refuse to realize that their "need" for their own personal zoo is not an actual need. It has come to the point where the "right" to bring your dog anywhere outweighs the rights of other humans. The equation is clearly askew, and it is time to bring it back to a human balance.

PS: There is a difference between working animals and pets.

[MicaelS]

47. No, The problem with your mindset is that

You want to punish many for the misdeeds of a few.

As an extrapolation, you would require breathalyzer interlocks in every vehicle in the US on the grounds it "might save X number of lives a year due to DUI." Even though the majority of people do not DUI, you would punish everyone.

In other words everyone is guilty until they prove themselves innocent.

That is not the way this country works.

According to Wikipedia, there have been 538 dog bite fatalities in the US since 1979. IMO, that is not sufficient cause to force licensing of some breeds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_States#Summary_Tables

And I don't own any pets.

[Snake Alchemist]

52. Requiring licenses is a punishment?

Do you think that gun purchases or driving a commercial vehicle should require a license?

[MicaelS]

54. No, and yes

No, there should not be a license required for simply purchasing a gun. Carrying a handgun concealed, yes.

Yes, there should be a license for driving a commercial vehicle. A commercial vehicle can weigh 80,000 pounds and travel at 70+mph. It can carry explosive or radioactive material, and could kill a hundred people or more in an accident.

[uppityperson]

119. You want me to need to get a license to buy a 22? What? No, all gun purchases don't need

a license. Good grief.

And of course you need a license to drive a 80,000 lb vehicle.

Good grief part 2.

[Snake Alchemist]

122. difference between big guns, but not big dogs? NT

[LanternWaste]

70. Precisely how is licensing a form of punishment?

Precisely how is licensing a form of punishment?

Additionally, what then is the precise and relevant ethical difference between requiring a license for one thing and not for another thing?

[one_voice]

48. This is what one of the cities in Delaware requires...

Pit Bull Registration

Pit Bull owners must be at least 21 years old.
Pit Bulls must be licensed and registered. Registration is $30, good for the life of the dog, and must be registered at the Delaware Humane Association.
Pit Bull registration requires that the animals be neutered – Delaware SPCA offers FREE spay/neuter for Pit Bulls owned by City residents, call 998-2281 for an appointment (get directions).
Pit Bull registration requires that the owner owns his/her home or has a lease with express written consent allowing a Pit Bull to be housed.
Pit Bull breeding is prohibited – puppies are subject to seizure.
Pit Bulls must be on a leash not to exceed 6 feet in length and must be muzzled in City parks.

THERE ARE STIFF FINES FOR VIOLATIONS OF PIT BULL ORDINANCES
$500 – SINGLE VIOLATION
$1,000 – REPEAT OR CONTINUING VIOLATIONS

http://www.wilmingtonde.gov/residents/animals

I don't know why it's just Wilmington. I will say that the Stanton SPCA is full of Pittes. http://delspca.animalshelternet.com/adoption_search_a.cfm

Last May my daughter rescued a Pit from the SPCA--he'd been there over 8 months and was 2-2 1/2. He's the best dog! I love him like my own.

I own two Boxers, and have had Dobies and Rotties in the past. I've never had an aggressive dog. They've always been gentle and great around children and other dogs. There's a Chihuahua next door, he gets out of the yard all the time and terrorizes other dogs. He chased an older woman walking her Greyhound down the street. He's bitten me twice when I tried to put in back in his yard, I was afraid a car would hit him. One of the bites got infected.

You train a big dog just like a little a dog....you have to socialize them, they need to listen, the need boundaries, big and small dogs alike.

[RebelOne]

50. Yes, they are required to be registered Miami-Dade County, FL.

I had a pit bull that had to be registered.

[Raffi Ella]

59. Yes.

While I love any and all dogs I do consider my life at stake with large unknown powerful dogs and take the necessary precautions when around them, no matter the breed but especially with certain ones like pit bulls.

Nobody has total control over another being at all times no matter how well trained or known they are. Your life is in your hands when around animals, take heed.

[Marrah_G]

63. I think they should need a license that one would have to take classes to recieve.

I also think the owners should be compelled by law to take the dog and themselves to training classes. Too many of these dogs are to easily obtained by clueless people and bred by equally clueless people. It does a great disservice to both society and to the dog.

[FarCenter]

65. A license is required in NJ

Dog Licensing

The owners of all dogs seven months of age or older are required to annually apply to the licensing clerk of the municipality in which he or she resides for a dog license. In order for the license to be issued, the owner must present proof that a licensed veterinarian has vaccinated the dog against rabies and that the duration of immunity from that vaccination extends through at least ten months of the twelve-month licensing period. An exemption to the rabies inoculation requirement shall be granted if the owner presents written certification from a licensed veterinarian that the dog cannot be vaccinated due to a medical condition or course of therapy.

Dog licensing fees are set by municipal ordinance but the maximum that can be charged annually is $21.00. License fees are kept by the municipality and used for animal and rabies control activities. Municipal licensing clerks also collect the following additional fees when the dog is licensed: $1.00 for each dog licensed that is forwarded to the DHSS and placed in the Rabies Trust Fund to support State rabies and animal control programs, $3.00 for unneutered dogs that is forwarded to the DHSS, Animal Population Control Program to fund the New Jersey low cost spay and neuter program, and $0.20 for each dog licensed that is forwarded to the DHSS to defray the costs of operating The People for Animals, Inc. low cost spay and neuter clinic located in Hillside, NJ. These fees were enacted into law in 1983.

http://www.nj.gov/nj/community/community/dog_licenses.html

[LiberalFighter]

67. At a maximum there should be a prohibition on those with bad character from owning or possessing

Those convicted of violent crimes or manufacturing of drugs in the past 10 years. If they have been convicted in the past and keep their record clean for 10 years it should be okay. But they should be warned (when a law passes) that if they possess such animal and do not train it properly or use it for other than allowed domestic reasons they will be subject to harsher penalties.

[99Forever]

73. Your idea makes a great deal of sense...

.. but might be very difficult to not only get legislated, but even more difficult administer. In some ways, I think you would likely run into the same hurdles and road blocks that sensible gun safety legislation does.

[TorchTheWitch]

82. No, what a stupid idea

ANY dog can be potentially harmful. Owners just need to train and socialize their dogs properly, and make sure they are under their physical control at all times. Responible ownership is what is necessary, not a license. You CAN'T determine a dog's potential to be dangerous by breed or by size. ONLY responsible ownership can do that.

[randome]

84. And that's been tried for how many decades now?

You can't force owners to be responsible so it should not be acceptable to blame owners when someone is maimed or killed. Banning dangerous animals is the only certain way to keep people safe.

[TorchTheWitch]

159. BREEDS aren't inherently dangerous

That's the whole damn point. So what in the world does banning them or licensing those people that own certain breeds actually DO? Not a damn thing... except for unnecessarily and unfairly burdening both the dogs and the responsible people that own them. No dog is dangerous because of their breed... dangerous dogs are that way SOLELY because of irresponsible dog owners and their untrained/unsocialized dogs.

What would likely work enough to actually help is that every dog owner must register their dog and prove that the dog is properly trained and the owner properly educated and responsible. I've always wished that every dog owner had to pass a basic course about dog behavior, training, and owner responsibility, or for those that already feel that they know these things to pass a basic test before being allowed to register their dog.

There are already county dog licensing/registrations in most counties, but they are woefully disregarded. There are also laws that deal with bad owners and dangerous dogs, but many counties are far too lax in applying those laws. My own county requires registration and for the dog to wear the county's registration tag on their collar any time they are outside of the home, yet I'm the only person I've ever heard of that actually registers my dogs and attaches the county registration tag to his collar. I don't even know of a single dog owner in my area that is even aware that the county requires registration. Unfortunately, this is how most counties operate that even have the requirement... it's a requirement on paper but not in practice.

[Aerows]

141. I think it is safe to say

That you can to an extent determine a dog's potential to be dangerous by size. A strange Rottweiler coming at me is going to scare me; a chihuahua, not so much. If a chihuahua freaks out and bites you, sure you might have to get stitches and antibiotics to prevent infection. If a Rottweiler freaks out and bites you, I can guarantee you will have a lot more problems than just needing stitches.

It's just a matter of strength and size.

[TorchTheWitch]

160. so large sized dogs should be banned or licensed because they freak you out?

I'd much rather have a well-behaved Rottweiler on a leash held firmly by its responsible owner coming at me than a vicious chihuahua uncontrolled with its owner either nowhere in sight or stupidly allowing their dog to behave badly coming at me because that's far more sensible.

[Aerows]

161. Please don't put words in my mouth

You said that size is no way to judge how potentially dangerous a dog can be. I said that size is a factor in how dangerous a dog is capable of being to a human. You are going to have to basically lie down and do nothing for a chihuahua to critically injure you. On the other hand, a rottweiler can do that with one bite.

There is nothing in that statement but common sense, so please don't put additional words/viewpoints/arguments in my mouth.

[guitar man]

86. It depends

Before I'd even consider supporting such a law, I'd have to see a clear definition of what a "pit bull" is. The UKC American Pit Bull Terrier is a specific breed of dog. A "pit bull" seems to be anything stocky with a large head that the media is reporting about biting someone. Around this neck of the woods just about every idiot with a Bandogge or Boxer-mixed-with-something thinks they have a "pitbull". It's easy for the statistics to say that "pitbulls count for more attacks than any other breed" when that "breed" includes every molosser, all their cousins and the kitchen sink.

[Snake Alchemist]

88. Genetic testing should make this feasible.

I imagine you'd go by a percentage. I also think applying rules to any dog over 40lb is not a bad idea.

[guitar man]

90. 40 lb

40lb would exclude a lot of American Pit Bulls and Staffordshire Bulls. Many of them are well under 40lb full grown, especially females.

[Snake Alchemist]

91. I would be happy at 30lb as well.

Obviously, that is up for debate.

[AtomicKitten]

93. They should not be regulated more than other breeds.

Last edited Wed Jan 4, 2012, 04:51 AM - Edit history (1)

I adopted a rescued pit mix. I was advised by the SPCA and my vet to never, ever leave her alone with my cats. She bit one of my cats the first day and we came to an understanding regarding her behavior. She is 8 years old now and my two cats walk all over her. Literally.

[A Simple Game]

94. Why are you so concerned about a relatively small number of deaths per year? n/t

[Snake Alchemist]

97. How many deaths (and injuries) should I be concerned about? nt

[baldguy]

109. You don't know how many people are killed by dogs each year?

Would it surprise you to learn bathtubs kill ten times more people than dogs? Should we ban bathtubs?

How about Horses? They kill more people than dogs too. Should we ban horses?

[A Simple Game]

111. Well I was thinking of Bicycles, but your points are all good ones too. n/t

[Xicano]

99. NO!

Because licenses are for things which are not normally allowed, and owning a dog as a pet is not a privilege. People have a right to own a dog. Now can irresponsible dog owners be taken to court? Yes. Can a court upon facts & findings of a dog owner being a irresponsible dog owner get an injunction against owning certain breeds? Yes. That would be due process. But making any and everyone get "permission" to own something they have a right to is NOT proper due process.


n/t

[Snake Alchemist]

100. A right? No. nt

[Xicano]

102. So owning a pet is not a right? LOL Next you'll be saying having kids is not a right.

n/t

[Snake Alchemist]

103. Does the pet right only apply to dogs?

And if your apartment complex doesn't allow pets have they infringed on your rights?

[Xicano]

105. The owner of an apartment has a right not to allow pets on THEIR property.

That in no way is infringing on a person's right to own pets. Apartment owner: "Wanna own a pet? Go ahead, but, not on my property."

This is not rocket science.... n/t

[Snake Alchemist]

106. where is this right to own a pet codified into law?

Last edited Tue Jan 3, 2012, 09:11 PM - Edit history (1)

Can I keep a tiger at my house as a pet?

[TheKentuckian]

110. Rights aren't codified but assumed. Your question misunderstands our system

We have a limited form of government which means it only has the authority We the People grant it, not the other way around.

The codification you refer to is restriction from interference with certain rights anything that isn't codified is reserved to the people or the states.

[Snake Alchemist]

112. So you have no problem with my tiger?

What other licenses are you opposed to? Class III firearm licenses? Commercial driving licenses?

[MattBaggins]

176. owning a pet is not a right

[baldguy]

177. Owning a pet is a responsability.

And responsible owners & their animals shouldn't be punished for the actions of irresponsible owners.

[randr]

107. They should require a permanent leash tied to their owners

Their owners should be subject, at least, to existing laws against battery. Make them legally responsible for the acts of their dogs and subject to civil action as well.

[TheKentuckian]

108. No. The average owner can handle these dogs, almost always it is the asshole owners

at the root. Most pits I know are sweeter than sugar and the ones that weren't were driven that way on purpose.

[Snake Alchemist]

114. I disagree. The average owner is not prepared

Last edited Tue Jan 3, 2012, 11:48 PM - Edit history (1)

My dog is incredibly sweet, but I realize how dangerous she could be in the wrong situation. The people who think their large dog could never hurt a fly scare me.

[uppityperson]

120. "The people who think they're large did could never hurt a fly scare me." What? I mean, wtf?

word salad?

[Snake Alchemist]

121. auto correct. NT

[Marrah_G]

158. From what I have seen the "average" dog owner is usually clueless

I have met very few people who research breeds before buying. They go by looks or reputations and think very little about the needs of each particular breed.

[baldguy]

162. Not as clueless as people who push BSLs that don't work.

[Marrah_G]

167. What is a BSL?

[baldguy]

168. Like I said - clueless.

[Marrah_G]

170. Okay you are just behaving like a jerk

I am very pleased to have the ignore function back.

[baldguy]

175. You promote something and you have no clue what it is or how it effects people

or if it even does what you think it does.

I'd say that defines clueless.

[arely staircase]

115. i would have to see something more than scary anecdotal stories

i really am open minded on the subject. but i would have to see some statistical models on such breeds.

[Liberty Belle]

129. San Diego elderly woman just lost 3 limbs to pit bull attacks, then died months later.

Her neighbors dogs broke through a fence and mauled her in her yard - tore off a leg and an arm, then months later after many surgeries she lost a 3rd limb, and finally died. Haertbreaking. The dogs had attacked and killed a small dog previously. They have since been euthanized.

Nobody should be forced to go through this because of a neighbor's stupidity. As usually we heard the mantra that these dogs weren't trained to be vicious and what great pets they'd been. Within the past year we had another San Diego man lose his toes and a baby die after pit bull maulings.

A friend's son had one and swore it was a nice dog -- until it attacked and mauled another dog, unprovoked, while being walked on a leash. These, too were family pets, not junkyard dogs. Of course there are those who train their dogs to be vicious and that's bad too. A police officer had to shoot and kill one here because it attacked him when he went to answer a call about a vicious dog running loose.

Owning a pit bull is like having a ticking time bomb, you just never know when it will go off. It's in their genes, and if something triggers it the consequences are lethal.

In the past year, we've reported on numerous serious dog attacks. All but 1 involved a pit bull, as did every one of the fatalities.

[baldguy]

140. Do you have a link? Or are you just spreading uninformed & misleading hype?

If there's a problem dog, why should a second unrelated dog from 20 mi away that has no connection to it be punished?

[Fawke Em]

131. How large?

I am actually in violation of my city law, but can prove my dogs (and new cat) are all taken care off, restricted and observed. I PAY to have them vaccinated, spay/neutered and shot (rabies, parvo, etc.) I'm two over city law and admit it...but I'm not a collector.

That said... my cocker CAN be viscous. He was sexually abused. I'm giving him a home and he sometimes has a hard time with my husband, but that's normal. We're in our first year working on his behavior after two years working on his health.

I have a Chihuahua who I found starving and cold on the street in front of our house. He's an angel.

I have a Dobe/Mix - the doggie Mommie. When I'm not around, she's the Alpha.

I have a Golden/mix - Rescued from under a shed.

My puppy (who gets fixed this month) is a Beagle mix.


So...I own all these and have to PAY?

Yeah, right.

[rdking647]

142. and how do you know whats a pitbull?

i have a dog that looks like he could be part pit.. hes also strong as an ox.. and the biggest baby there is..

we have a dna test done on him just to see what he is.. we assumed beagle /pit mix..

nope...
beagle boston terrier..

breed bans are just plain wrong.

[rdking647]

143. in 2011 there where 14 people killed by dogs in the US

frankly viscous dog attacks arent a real problem in the US.
yes bad stuff happens but rather than blaming the dog breed hold the owners responsible.

[Snake Alchemist]

147. How many were injured? nt

[MicaelS]

156. Why don't YOU find the data, and present it to us?

You are one wanting to license dog owners and dogs. Let's see hard data justifying it, in terms of deaths and injuries, in relation to things that do and do not require licensing.

[Rex]

164. Don't hold your breath...

[MicaelS]

169. Definitely not planning on it, thanks n/t

[dembotoz]

149. my pet -like me- are of questionable origin

i don't even know what a presa canarios is (sounds like a wine or an expensive dish at a restaurant).


i tend to use easier(for me) categories

big dog, little dog

waggy dog, mean dog

same thing with cats......

so lets say i get a dog at the local humane society

and 2 weeks latter a cop tells me that it looks like a presa canarios or perhaps a fruity sangria.

does the dog submit to dna testing????

what percentage is pure--75% special rules
74%--go on your way?????


i think the local police profile enough--lets not add to it

[baldguy]

153. Orchid is definitely of the waggy variety.

[Rex]

163. Only if you live in a 'World of Fear' 24/7.

[inna]

178. *all* dogs require a license in most states; and some states have breed-specific legislation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breed-specific_legislation#United_States