Anyone wanna disagree with this?

[DippyDem]

Republicans want a good Christian be in the WH - so they nominate a Mormon.

Republicans claim ACA is unAmerican - so they nominate the man who inspired it.

Republicans feel an elitist shouldn't be in the WH - so they nominate the man whose picture is next to the word.

Republicans accuse Obama of being inexperienced - so they nominate the man who refuses to talk about his experience.

Republicans demand transparency from the President - so they nominate the man who turned paper shredding into an Olympic event.

Republicans cry about having to pay for others - so they nominate the man who throughout his entire career, made his living off other peoples money.

And they wonder why no one understands them.

[mucifer]

1. My problem with the post is knocking the Mormon religion.

It is a Christian religion. All religions have their crazy fundis.

[JoePhilly]

2. Fundies would disagree with you.

They seem Mormonism as a cult, not a valid version of Christianity.

[mwooldri]

13. Mainline Protestant Christian denominations on the other hand...

... tend to view Mormonism as Christians who have been sidetracked. Pretty much the same way mainliners view fundamentalist offshoots, and of course, the Roman Catholic church, and to a lesser extent the Orthodox church. The different mainline denominations of course disagree who is closer to the true Church than everyone else, but they rank their church cousins in order of how much they have sidetracked from their view.

I do view Mormons as Christians, just sidetracked ones.

[progressoid]

34. Uhm...No.

Most of the mainline Protestant Christians that I know do NOT view Mormons as Christians. In fact, claiming Mormons are Christians is one of their main problems with Mormonism.

And I'm not talking about fundie Christians, but your garden variety Christians - Lutherans, Presbyterians, Methodists, etc.

[TeamPooka]

38. I've never met a Fundie Protestant that thought Mormanism was a Christian religion

I had the Book of Mormon, several Bibles, and other religious texts on a book shelf once as my fundamentalist landlady was collecting the rent and she was aghast that I had even the Mormon book in my house.
She said it was the devils text.

[JoePhilly]

39. I tend to think of an interview Wolf Blitzer did with Ralph Reed and James Carville a while back.

They were discussing Romney, and Wolf asked them if they thought Mormons were Christians. Carville goes first and basically says "Sure, they claim to be Christians, who am I to tell them they aren't". Then Wolf goes to Reed. Reed stutters and stammers and never comes close to answering the question.

Reed knew he could not tell the truth. The right wing Christians (the more fundementalist and evangelical types) don't think Mormons are Christians, but they try to avoid saying that out loud because they are fine if the Mormons THINK that they are Christians, so that they help grow their "Christian" voting block.

Many of them see Catholics in a similar fashion. The see the pope as an agent of the anti-Christ. McCain ran into this issue with Rev Hagee back in 2008. You don't want the fundies to tell the Catholics that they aren't real Christians because that might cause them to drift away from the "Christian" voting block.

[TeamPooka]

40. Most Catholics think Protty's are heretics anyway....

since they broke with the church.

[JoePhilly]

41. I'd disagree with you ... I grew up with Catholics, graduated from a Jesuit University too ...

They generally don't care about the Protestants or how they "broke" from the church.

That view may be different outside the US, but within the US, I have never encountered a Catholic who thinks Protestants are heretics.

Back in the 60s, my father was not allowed to be his brother's best man because my uncle was marrying a Catholic woman.

Your use of "most" is not close to reality ... you might be able to claim "some" ... but not "most". Unless you have some data on that.

[TeamPooka]

43. Irish here so they probably do care a little more because of "everything"...

[sarcasmo]

25. +1

[nichomachus]

4. Wrong

There are scads of Christian denominations and they have their theological differences, but the one thing that unifies them is that they are monotheistic. All their creeds begin with "I believe in one God." The Mormons do not. They believe in numerous gods. They are non-Christian right out of the gate.

[heaven05]

5. mormons

mormons,technically ARE NOT a christian religion. Do some research. All religions are tools to control the masses.

[mucifer]

6. I'm Jewish. I thought Christians worship Jesus and call themselves Christians.

what do I know?

[Roy Rolling]

15. true

As we beat this dead horse, perhaps the sentence should read "Republicans want an evangelical Christian in the White House..."

The issue is not whether Mormonism is a Christian faith, but that evangelical and other Christian faiths denounce it as a cult.

And that, my friends, is why Iraq, Afghanistan, and every other country that is ruled by religious sects is constantly engaged in civil war.

[grantcart]

27. see #14 & #26 below

[JVS]

55. Are you familiar with the religious group called Jews for Jesus?

[heaven05]

60. mormons

Mormons don't worship Jesus no matter what they have put out there for public consumption or what we all have been led to believe. "As man is, God once was, and as God is, man may become." All it takes is RESEARCH. Please don't take my word for it.

[bahrbearian]

14. I'm a Mormon not a Christian

I think they use it for Cover


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/13/opinion/im-a-mormon-not-a-christian.html?_r=2&hp


I want to be on record about this. I’m about as genuine a Mormon as you’ll find — a templegoer with a Utah pedigree and an administrative position in a congregation of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I am also emphatically not a Christian.

For the curious, the dispute can be reduced to Jesus. Mormons assert that because they believe Jesus is divine, they are Christians by default. Christians respond that because Mormons don’t believe — in accordance with the Nicene Creed promulgated in the fourth century — that Jesus is also the Father and the Holy Spirit, the Jesus that Mormons have in mind is someone else altogether. The Mormon reaction is incredulity. The Christian retort is exasperation. Rinse and repeat.

I am confident that I am not the only person — Mormon or Christian — who has had enough of the acrimonious niggling from both sides over the nature of the trinity, the authority of the creeds, the significance of grace and works, the union of Christ’s divinity and humanity, and the real color of God’s underwear. I’m perfectly happy not being a Christian. My Mormon fellows, most of whom will argue earnestly for their Christian legitimacy, will scream bloody murder that I don’t represent them. I don’t. They don’t represent me, either.

[Thor_MN]

16. I'm preety sure God's underwear is plaid

That's why no one ca agree what color it is.

[vlyons]

18. Plaid hummm?

Would that mean that God is a Calvinist?

[Ikonoklast]

48. Close.

God wears a kilt, but He goes "Full Regimental" underneath, so, no undies of any color.

[grantcart]

26. You are the first completely honest Mormon I have met on this

Subject.

Before the Nicene Creed there were Gnostic and 'Trinity' Christians. The Trinity christians won that debate and forced the Gnostic Christians out and took over the name 'Christian'.

Mormons can, as Christians can, claim to be followers of Jesus but they believe fundamentally different things about the nature of Christ. Mormons share a great deal with the original Gnostic Christians.

[MADem]

57. I don't think the poster is a Mormon--he's quoting from the link he provided.

The words belong to a NYT columnist named Mason. He certainly has a "big finish" in that piece:

...Eventually, Christianity grew up and conceded that it wasn’t authentic Judaism. Lo and behold, once it had given up its claim to Judaism, it became a state religion — cannibalism notwithstanding — and spent the next 1,700 years getting back at all the bullies who had slighted it when it was a child.

Eventually, Mormonism will grow up. Maybe a Mormon in the White House will hasten that moment when Mormonism will no longer plead through billboards and sappy radio ads to be liked, though I suspect that Mr. Romney is such a typical politician that, should he occupy the Oval Office, he’ll studiously avoid the appearance of being anything but a WASP. This could set back the cause of Mormon identity by decades.

Whatever happens in November, I hope Mormonism eventually realizes that it doesn’t need Christianity’s approval and will get big and beat up all the imperious Christians who tormented it when it was small, weird and painfully self-conscious. Mormons are certainly Christian enough to know how to spitefully abuse their power.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/13/opinion/im-a-mormon-not-a-christian.html?_r=3&hp

[DhhD]

35. Christians believe that Jesus has yet to come. Whereas Mormon history

tells us that Jesus has already returned and left books buried to be found in America. Where is Christ staying since he has already returned? Could it be that Mormons believe that Jesus and the Holy Spirit reside in the Celestial Kingdom/Mormon Temple in Utah?

According to the New Testament, Paul received his Apostleship from the risen Christ, in the presence of many people, who also heard the voice of Christ coming down from Heaven. Were his parents believers in familiar spirits, forecasters, and religious con men, when he was growing up in New York City? Where did Smith work? How did Smith make a living? It is my belief that Smith performed no miracles, was a drunkard, and was in and out of jail until he was run out of numerous cities, counties and states. Please feel free to research the records.

Then there is the history that Mormons used native Indians in and around Utah to kill American settlers going West by wagon train until the US Calvary stepped in. What happened to the divine power of the Celestial Kingdom?

[JoePhilly]

44. Huh?

Christians believe that Jesus has been here, died on the cross, but he has yet to RETURN.

Jews and Muslims see Jesus as a prophet, but not as the Messiah.

And I think Mormons believe that Jesus was here, died on the cross, then came back and spent a few weeks in the "Show me state" while delivering some place settings.

[WinstonSmith4740]

17. I was raised Catholic.

But as George Carlin once said, I've grown.

Anyhow, years ago I was having a conversation with a new "born again", and made the comment that my parents were "damn good Christians, even though they didn't buy into all the dogma". He told me they couldn't be, because they were Catholics. Something about not reading his version of the Bible. Took me a week to get my chin off my chest.

[Moonwalk]

32. Same thing happened to my husband....

He's not Catholic, but he saw these born-again's preaching and passing out pamphlets and got into a conversation with one. He was a former Catholic and vehemently stated that Catholics were NOT Christians! Confounded, my husband asked, "They may not be on the same team as you, but aren't they in the league?" (i.e. they believe in the divinity of Christ, doesn't that make them Christian?).

He was adamant: "NO! They're not even in the same game!"

And this guy at least knew what Catholicism teaches, etc. Many born-agains who say the same don't. I have to wonder what happened during his Catholic upbringing (or didn't happen) that left him so bitter.

[smirkymonkey]

52. I could be wrong, but aren't Catholics the original Christians?

I never understood why the fundies don't consider them Christian. They may not be the same brand of bat shit crazy, but I belive they are still technically "Christian".

[Beartracks]

53. Quite a bit more than "technically."

I don't know what's got the fundie panties in a wad about Catholics, either. But the Roman Catholic church is the genuine original Christian church. It's the one from which all the other denominations were spin-offs. The line of Popes goes all the way back to St. Peter, one of the 12 apostles.

Clearly, I'm glossing over the complexities of the Protestant Reformation and the splits and schisms over the centuries. But I would hazard a guess that if you and your fellow believers split away from the main line faith and started your own church, then you'd probably define a tradition that says that YOU are the real deal and the old guard is not, so perhaps that's why fundie Protestants even today will say that Catholics aren't true Christians.

=======================

[Moonwalk]

62. Some would Argue that Catholicism went away from the true faith....

When Christianity started there were many different types and thoughts and branches. Even books (not just Luke and Matthew, etc.). Catholicism may trace itself back to St. Peter, but that doesn't mean it was the only game in town when it started--there were other apostles and their followers, as well as those who came after them and their followers (like St. Paul).The Catholic church actually started from a split with the gnostics who, as we know, had their own books. When the Catholic church started it argued long and hard what books would be part of the new testament, what teachings, even what storyline for Jesus' life. And certain books out there were not included, and certain beliefs of early Christians were forbidden, as well as certain practices (like women having roles in the rituals). The gnostics were crushed, their faith forbidden and presumably forgotten, but the Eastern Orthodox church came out of other disagreements and survived to have its own influence--arguably as old and original as the Catholic Church.

So, arguably, a born-again, or any protestant denomination could argue that the Catholic church was not the "original" Christian church but rather one created by certain, bias folk who didn't understand what Jesus was really saying, or really meant or really intended. Thus, not true Christian at all. They could argue that they are getting back to before the Catholic church appropriated Christianity for its own purposes, and thus are more true to it than Catholicism.

And this being religion, a denomination can always have a leader or prophet who, it says, was given "true" Christianity by god, directly. Catholicism's age and origins then become moot. A leader/prophet says that god told him that Catholicism is wrong, and this new religion is right, then, to those in the new religion, what more is needed to substantiate the claim that Catholicism isn't Christianity?

[amuse bouche]

21. Do other religions promote

Last edited Thu Aug 9, 2012, 06:44 PM - Edit history (1)

'lying for the lord' ? What about the Mormon ‘White Horse’ Prophecy?

Nefarious at best and super creepy.

[Stainless]

30. The face of Mormonism is it's people

Mitt Romney is who he is because of his religion. Mitt is a pathetic liar and a an evil hypocrite. I am about Mitt's age and I was born and grew up in Utah. I observed many well off Mormon kids avoid the draft during the Vietnam War. Mitt Romney is the epitomy of a spoiled rich Mormon and he would not be a good choice for President. Now Jon Huntsman, on the other hand, is an example of a spoiled rich Mormon that I could support.

[iemitsu]

37. mormonism is not a christian religion.

they do not believe in the divinity of christ and therefore mormons are not christian.
that does not necessarily mean that mormans aren't good people, they just aren't christian.

[lobodons]

47. Real Christians don't worship an Appendix to the Bible

and carry around the Bible for show and an afterthought.

[Robyn66]

61. Personally I am getting a little tired of religion in general being constantly attacked around here

I know I am going to get flamed mercilessly for this but you know what, we are supposed to be tolerant and respect peoples beliefs so if you talk the talk, walk the walk.

I am not going to tell you what I believe, its none of your business but I am a person of faith, and that doesn't make me stupid or anti-science or homophobic. But I have noticed some people have no problem hijacking posts to abuse people who are people of faith. I will never criticize or condemn anyone for being an atheist and I respect the same respect from others.

So pardon the digression, I have spoken my peace I will go now and hide under my bed as the flames start to fly.

[mabuhayp]

3. No argument from me

[Nye Bevan]

7. Mormons call themselves Christian.

http://mormon.org/faq/belief-in-jesus-christ?gclid=CMaw2N3V2rECFYao4Aodmi0AxQ

And the name of the church is "Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints".

[grantcart]

58. There is nothing in your link that suggests that Mormons call themselves "Christians"

Believing in Jesus as Christ makes you a follower of Jesus not a "Christian".

Before the Nicene conference there were Gnostic and Trinity Christians, afterwards a strict Trinity definition of Christianity was enforced and they became the Catholic, Protestant and AnaBaptist traditions.

Mormonism is basically a form Gnostic Christianity and as the Mormon up thread clearly states has a completely different systematic theology and a different Christology from the rest of the Church.

To call them all Christians is to eliminate the meaning of words. Muslims also believe that Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary, was a Prohpet and the Son of God. Does that also make them Christians?

[Yeah Its Spin]

8. Wouldn't Christ

inhabit Kolob before his holiness Romney?

[bahrbearian]

9. Bookmarked

[Autumn]

10. I can't disagree with that.

After Bush, ANYTHING is possible.

[zeemike]

11. Projection is the standard tool used by the sociopaths that control the party.

Get your hand caught in the cookie jar and accuse them of stealing cookies.
I'm rubber your glue...is their strategy and it can work on the uninformed.

[SCVDem]

12. would anyone be upset

If it were Scientology or the Moonies?

Selective religious outrage.

[amuse bouche]

22. Yes detest them

They are super creepy cults too

[d_r]

19. Romny's only track record

is being pro-life and anti-gun, but the single issue voters against those two will vote for him. You can

[sarge43]

20. Repubs work in hypocrity the way Michelangelo worked in marble. n/t

[Marr]

23. In their defense, the vast majority of them didn't want Romney.

The 1% did, and they trump all the suckers combined.

[The CCC]

24. Anyone wanna disagree with this.

Want to hear a funny name for a non Christian church? The Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints

[jberryhill]

51. Is Scientology based on Science?

Wanna hear a funny name for something that is not based on science? Scientology.

Wanna hear a funny name for the most repressive and non-democratic country on earth? The Democratic People's Republic of Korea.

Wanna hear a funny name for something which doesn't contain nuts? Chock Full O' Nuts.

Wanna hear a funny name for something that doesn't contain any fruit? Froot Loops.

[patrice]

28. I disagree; R's don't really want any of that stuff. Republicans are fascists. Fascists want power.

Fascists want power for power's sake alone and for NO other reason. They want all of the power there is.

Fascists want power ONLY so they adopt ANY and all political positions under any label, say anything, do anything, ally themselves with ANYONE, use anyone for anything, lie about to and about anyone for anything and everything . . . for one reason and one reason only: POWER for power's sake alone. They are power addicts.

Romney's state-trooper uniform wasn't an accident; it wasn't a co-incident; it wasn't happenstance. It was a pure manifestation of the instinctual desire for power for no reason other than to experience power, to wield it, to display it, to glory in the fact that one has it and someone else doesn't.

[patrice]

29. Any religion is secondary to the fascist drive to POWER, so I hope you all will stop insulting

Mormons and other religions, because you are missing the point.

Fascists use religion is a distraction, a tool the purpose of which is to acquire power and hence control over any and all others.

There are perfectly decent people who are Mormons/Christians/whatever ... These are people who have common cause with you. They want to be free. They do not want to be dominated and controlled by fascists.

I like to talk about religion, because I find it interesting to analyze it, but it IS being used to divide and conquer us for the purposes of power acquisition.

[bayareaboy]

31. Not to get too much away from religion ...

But I really disagree with your last line.

I don't rightly think that Re PUGs wonder if no one understands them. They just want to fear of others. Look here, I just fucked your life in one way or another and I will do more to put you where I want you to be. Get the idea?

it is all about being dominant.

[Blanks]

33. Is paper shredding really an olympic event?

If not; I'm afraid I'm gonna have to disagree with that one.

[Uncle Joe]

36. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, DippyDem.

[bvar22]

42. Beautifully Done.

Just beautiful.

Big DURec!



[font color=firebrick size=3][center]"If we don't fight hard enough for the things we stand for,
at some point we have to recognize that we don't really stand for them."
--- Paul Wellstone[/font][/center]
[center][/font]
[font size=1]photo by bvar22
Shortly before Sen Wellstone was killed[/center][/font]

[font size=5 color=firebrick]Solidarity![/font]

[bonzotex]

45. wow...You found someone to disagree

Love the list! Funny!

Even more Hilarious? Most of the thread devolved into religious gobble-de-goop about the Xtianity of Mormons. This happening on DU is a pale shadow of what real conservative Xtians think of Mormons.

Fundies have real issues with Mittens the Mormon. They've bitten their tongues in public and tried extra hard to find something to love about R-money. In the end quite a few fundies won't vote for him just because he's Mormon. Not that they'll vote for Obama, but they'll find a reason not to punch the top of the ticket for Mitt.

Mitt was doomed from the beginning.

[valerief]

46. That's because Republicans are hip.

Hypocrites.

[The Wizard]

49. The Mormon Church is a business cooperative

nothing more or less, that hides its income under the cloak of tax free religious status. Its founder was a con artist who was wanted all over the country and ended up in Utah because it was territory with no law.

[dflprincess]

50. They haven't officially nominated him yet

and I'm starting to wonder if they will.

[meti57b]

59. I too, wonder about that. If any of the pubbies read DU .....

they may just wise up and dump the guy, and find someone who is actually smart, sharp, has a "personality", is reasonably qualified for the job, but who is extremely conservative. I cannot right off think who that would be but they probably have someone tucked away.

[harmonicon]

54. It all makes sense if you use your Republican Decoder Ring.

Christian = white.

Elitist = anyone who's actually better than them at anything.

Experience(d) = money/rich

Transparency = doing whatever the most rabid mouth-breathing hate-mongers want

Paying for others = paying for blacks/other minorities

(for them being against ACA, just combine "elitist" with "paying for others&quot

[Rhiannon12866]

56. K&R! Very well said...

And a belated welcome to DU!