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NRaleighLiberal

(60,015 posts)
Thu Aug 30, 2018, 01:52 PM Aug 2018

TPM - Marshall - "Tough, Dark Times Ahead"

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/tough-dark-times-ahead

By Josh Marshall
August 30, 2018 12:38 pm
I want to return to a point I made indirectly yesterday. I want to make it more directly. We’re heading toward a genuine constitutional crisis with the President. “Constitutional crisis” is sort of a meaningless word. But let me try to give it more specific meaning: a threat to the rule of law and adherence to the constitution which the constitution itself does not provide a ready to solution to, not under present political circumstances.

The President is getting rid of staunch right-wing ideologues because they will not allow him – whatever their other faults – to prevent the rule of law to applying to him and his family. To use a analogy, they’ll help him with his misdemeanors but so far at least not with his felonies. That’s what the laying the groundwork to fire Jeff Sessions is about. That’s what the firing of Don McGahn is about. When your boss announces you are leaving and you didn’t know you were leaving, that’s called being fired. Even the inability to state this obvious fact is a symptom of a larger problem: since there’s no apparent solution to the President’s push to make himself invulnerable to the law, we prefer not to say what is happening.

We don’t know the precise order of events. But the President is apparently intent on pardoning Paul Manafort – something that even by Trumpian standards has no real justification other than obstructing justice – and either ending Robert Mueller’s investigation or putting it under the control of a loyalist who will defang it.

This is happening before our eyes. There’s as yet no apparent path by which any of this will be prevented. The one partial path, which is political in nature as it should be, is if the House of Representatives moves to Democratic control in January. The issue isn’t impeachment. For my part, I think the discussion of this misses the point and is largely a distraction. It’s not that impeachment isn’t justified or is too radical. By any reasonable measure, Trump’s erratic behavior alone would have merited his removal from office months ago. The key is oversight and investigation: of the countless threads of post-2016 corruption but particularly the Russia investigation.

Everything we’ve seen about the Mueller probe suggests that he is conducting exactly the kind of professional, highly confidential investigation anyone should want. But the key for the country is not just that people who have committed crimes should be punished. An even higher goal is that the country know what happened, whatever it is that happened. That is something that congressional investigations can do and Special Counsels can only do to a very limited extent. Ideally the two processes coordinate and work in tandem, allowing each to fulfill their critical role without undermining the other.

As I noted recently, if we look at the totality of the Special Counsel’s investigation it seems very likely that there are things the investigators know about Manafort’s activities that can never be made public in a courtroom. They are likely inadmissible and even if they were admissible would involve jeopardizing intelligence sources. The most plausible logic of all the charges that have been brought against Manafort is that they want him to admit what they know to be true based on highly classified information that cannot be presented in a courtroom. That is why President Trump is so intent on pardoning him.

Trump appears to know he cannot let the Special Counsel’s investigation continue, not in its present form, not without risking his presidency, his wealth and perhaps his freedom. For now, there’s no reason to think anyone will stop him. Republicans are becoming more accommodating rather than less in helping him to do so. The check will be a Democratic congress which can not only investigate but conduct a largely public investigation.

We’re in for dark and challenging months ahead.

29 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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TPM - Marshall - "Tough, Dark Times Ahead" (Original Post) NRaleighLiberal Aug 2018 OP
I'm ready for it, if it helps heal this Country! Meadowoak Aug 2018 #1
+100000000000000000000! (n/t) FreepFryer Aug 2018 #2
Heal? maxsolomon Aug 2018 #5
I'm not ready for it at all. I think you're minimizing the pain and damage that's going to be done. Cousin Dupree Aug 2018 #13
K&R. Truth. KY_EnviroGuy Aug 2018 #16
But it absolutely means, if we win back the House, we must IMPEACH Farmer-Rick Aug 2018 #3
If there will be impeachment, there will be no conviction or removal Wednesdays Aug 2018 #22
Yeah, I am Farmer-Rick Aug 2018 #27
This is exactly what i've been telling people. maxsolomon Aug 2018 #4
Very good. Firestorm49 Aug 2018 #6
The way I see it... kentuck Aug 2018 #7
Let me know if I've got this right. It is my understanding that even if Manafort is pardoned (of alwaysinasnit Aug 2018 #10
That's my understanding also. Gidney N Cloyd Aug 2018 #15
tRump's brand would have been ruined one way or another. ffr Aug 2018 #8
The dump brand is probably glittering in foreign capitals with despots like putin erronis Aug 2018 #11
"IMPEACHMENT IS OFF THE TABLE"...I sadly guarantee we will hear it again... BamaRefugee Aug 2018 #9
I bet we won't NewJeffCT Aug 2018 #12
I hope you're right but... BamaRefugee Aug 2018 #14
Using a slightly different perspective, KY_EnviroGuy Aug 2018 #19
Again, tRump will never be convicted and removed Wednesdays Aug 2018 #23
So What? Farmer-Rick Aug 2018 #28
They are all rich bastards. They are getting along just fine. CentralMass Aug 2018 #26
You left off the provision always used - "at this time"... getagrip_already Aug 2018 #20
"Winter Is Coming!!" say the Starks and Ali Velshi. SleeplessinSoCal Aug 2018 #17
it doesn't help one bit that we allow 1500 radio stations attack mueller all day certainot Aug 2018 #18
whenever we have packages delivered - Fed Ex, UPS - right wing hate radio is blaring at the driver NRaleighLiberal Aug 2018 #21
We've been in a constitutional crisis since the day after the election! Initech Aug 2018 #24
I'm a big fan... druidity33 Aug 2018 #25
This Is Indeed A Dark Time colsohlibgal Aug 2018 #29

maxsolomon

(33,345 posts)
5. Heal?
Thu Aug 30, 2018, 02:11 PM
Aug 2018

That's decades off - an entire generation of brainwashed fools needs to pass away.

This country has gangrene, or a MRSA.

Cousin Dupree

(1,866 posts)
13. I'm not ready for it at all. I think you're minimizing the pain and damage that's going to be done.
Thu Aug 30, 2018, 03:43 PM
Aug 2018

Our country may never recover from the damage that’s already been done, let alone what’s ahead.

KY_EnviroGuy

(14,492 posts)
16. K&R. Truth.
Thu Aug 30, 2018, 04:28 PM
Aug 2018

Trump is just a face that's been put on a disease we've been infected with for a very long time.....

Farmer-Rick

(10,183 posts)
3. But it absolutely means, if we win back the House, we must IMPEACH
Thu Aug 30, 2018, 02:06 PM
Aug 2018

We can't let them ride off into the sunset (like W and Cheney, Nixon and Raygun) and Not be held accountable. Otherwise next time around, the mobsters and criminals will be much worse. They get worse each time they get away with it.

We have to punish them to stop them.

Farmer-Rick

(10,183 posts)
27. Yeah, I am
Fri Aug 31, 2018, 10:40 AM
Aug 2018

The Republicons did it to Clinton. And then went on to get W elected then W went on to spy on Americans illegally and torture POWs. So, the Impeachment helped the GOP in the long run.

If we impeach right before Trump runs for his 2nd term, all his crimes will be on display. Unlike when Clinton was impeached, we should not wait for his 2nd term to take action. A 2nd term of this criminal ....a lame duck president that can do most anything, will wipe out what remains of our democracy.

maxsolomon

(33,345 posts)
4. This is exactly what i've been telling people.
Thu Aug 30, 2018, 02:10 PM
Aug 2018

Trump is going to move to end the Rule of Law, it's going to happen soon, and the GOP will make some McCain-like noises and do nothing.

November 2018 is the crux upon which our Democracy turns.

Firestorm49

(4,035 posts)
6. Very good.
Thu Aug 30, 2018, 02:54 PM
Aug 2018

Now, if we can just get the message out there in a strong, ongoing and intelligent manner, maybe we can turn the tide.

kentuck

(111,101 posts)
7. The way I see it...
Thu Aug 30, 2018, 03:03 PM
Aug 2018

The only reason he would pardon Manafort is because Manafort has incriminating information on him. He doesn't want everyone to know that his wealth and fortune are directly connected to the Russians and money-laundering.

alwaysinasnit

(5,066 posts)
10. Let me know if I've got this right. It is my understanding that even if Manafort is pardoned (of
Thu Aug 30, 2018, 03:31 PM
Aug 2018

federal crimes), he can still be made to testify against others. In accepting a pardon, Manafort would no longer be able to claim a 5th Amend right against self-incrimination.

ffr

(22,670 posts)
8. tRump's brand would have been ruined one way or another.
Thu Aug 30, 2018, 03:14 PM
Aug 2018

His brand would have been tarnished had he not illegally conspired with a hostile foreign power as a candidate. As an illegitimate president, he's incapable of unifying the nation. He's toast. Just, this way he's been able to prolong the corruption.

erronis

(15,290 posts)
11. The dump brand is probably glittering in foreign capitals with despots like putin
Thu Aug 30, 2018, 03:33 PM
Aug 2018

They all love a gangsta, right? If not, too bad for them.

NewJeffCT

(56,828 posts)
12. I bet we won't
Thu Aug 30, 2018, 03:37 PM
Aug 2018

I can see not running on impeachment. But, IF Democrats take over the House, I can already predict that Pelosi will say something like, "Impeachment is not our priority, but thoroughly investigating the apparent corruption in and around the White House is our first order of business. If the results of our hearings and investigations warrants impeachment, we will address that issue at that time."

I think the corruption and treason are so deep that they will have no choice.

BamaRefugee

(3,483 posts)
14. I hope you're right but...
Thu Aug 30, 2018, 03:46 PM
Aug 2018

..didn't Schumer just fast track FIFTEEN Rethuglican judicial nominations? Democrats should be fighting tooth and nail for as long as it takes to stall ANYTHING those freaks want to do, and judges are IN FOR LIFE, they'll be making heinous right wing decisions for decades.


I'm not convinced our current leaders actually have the will to fight, going up against right wingers you have to fight all day, every day against EVERYTHING, because that's what they do to us.

KY_EnviroGuy

(14,492 posts)
19. Using a slightly different perspective,
Thu Aug 30, 2018, 04:45 PM
Aug 2018

I think it's the plutocrats with their massive wealth and influence that they know they can't fight - and few of those people are visible to us. Political leaders know who they are and are scared shitless of them. I would suspect the plutocrats constantly threaten them with harm to our economy if they're exposed or limited by regulation.

If there's one thing I'd like to see our leaders do, it is to begin exposing the massive web of invisible wealthy people (on-shore and off-shore) that think they have the right to control our lives, our thinking and our government.

Our citizens need to know and understand..... .......

Wednesdays

(17,380 posts)
23. Again, tRump will never be convicted and removed
Thu Aug 30, 2018, 07:02 PM
Aug 2018

Even IF the Democrats win majority of the senate, we'd need a dozen or so Republicans to turn against tRump to remove him. Under the most ideal conditions, we'd get three at most.

Farmer-Rick

(10,183 posts)
28. So What?
Fri Aug 31, 2018, 10:47 AM
Aug 2018

Impeachment didn't really hurt Republicons when they failed to convict Clinton. W got elected and was able to trample the constitution and destroy the economy without much restraint. It was a win for the GOP.

getagrip_already

(14,764 posts)
20. You left off the provision always used - "at this time"...
Thu Aug 30, 2018, 04:52 PM
Aug 2018

Once there is a special counsel report, or once it is clear that unconstitutional means have been used to prevent one, that is the time to strike. I think every dem leader agrees with that.

What isn't a good idea is just forcing a vote now. It will ultimately fail while providing inoculation.

We get one bite at the apple. It better be ripe.

 

certainot

(9,090 posts)
18. it doesn't help one bit that we allow 1500 radio stations attack mueller all day
Thu Aug 30, 2018, 04:41 PM
Aug 2018

without challenge

turn on limbaugh and he's in total denial - it's all a deep state plot v trump, all made up, and in any emergency when the power goes out that's what comes in clear. americans are really irresponsible about that - the dem party and progressive orgs especially - they have the resources to monitor, protest, boycott con talk radio

maybe limbaugh's worried mueller's going to find out trump and putin pay him for freelance work

NRaleighLiberal

(60,015 posts)
21. whenever we have packages delivered - Fed Ex, UPS - right wing hate radio is blaring at the driver
Thu Aug 30, 2018, 05:09 PM
Aug 2018

I agree, it is insidious - because we all know how propaganda - how repeated lies and hate - impacts people.

Initech

(100,080 posts)
24. We've been in a constitutional crisis since the day after the election!
Thu Aug 30, 2018, 07:33 PM
Aug 2018

How do you properly address a president who knowingly colluded with a hostile foreign power to win an election? And he repeatedly denies it despite that there's new evidence every day! It's so fucked up!

druidity33

(6,446 posts)
25. I'm a big fan...
Thu Aug 30, 2018, 08:31 PM
Aug 2018

and I'd rather not do any policing, but I like both TPM and DU. Probably best if you just post the 3 paragraphs allowed by copyright rules. It's good you got the link right up top though.



colsohlibgal

(5,275 posts)
29. This Is Indeed A Dark Time
Fri Aug 31, 2018, 01:06 PM
Aug 2018

We are where we have not been before. Democrats better take back at least the House and hope January 2019 is not too late for the save.

Trump is evil and stupid and the idea that most of his party is allowing this to continue is more than troubling.

20+ years of incessant right wing talk on TV and radio has changed the brains of millions turning them into useful tools.

I am not so sure of what’s ahead even when we’re rid of that idiot masquerading as President ...we seem to be divided into right wing drones railing against libtards and what they call political correctness......and the rest of us. I mean millions believe that that 5 years olds being shot and killed at Sandy Hook was a false flag operation and their grieving parents are actors. That is frightening.

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