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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe stories white guys tell themselves
http://www.tampabay.com/opinion/columns/the-stories-white-guys-tell-themselves/1245017pscot
(21,024 posts)but they wouldn't load. Anyone else able to see them?
Doc_Technical
(3,528 posts)where the oppressed feel sorry for their oppressors.
Or it was like prostitutes who are proud that their efforts
help their pimp wear $5,000 suits and drive $80,000 cars.
riverbendviewgal
(4,254 posts)read Joe Bageant's DEER HUNTING WITH JESUS... He was white, born in Appalachia and a journalist. He was a cool guy, a libertarian...I exchanged a few emails with him after reading his books and his blog...
Unfortunately he died last year.
Read his website. I didn't agree with all he said but lots of it I did.
http://www.joebageant.com/
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)I did not agree with a lot of what he said, especially his defense of Lyddie England, but he did make some valid points.
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)chrisy6 hours ago
This is what built and defended that stuff we take for granted today-
"Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan press on has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race
Calvin Coolidge (30th President of the US, 1923-1929)
I look forward to next week's column when comrade Blumner reveals the myths that explain why Obama enjoys a 90+ point advantage over Romney from a group of voters plagued with grinding poverty, staggering percentages of single-parent families, record school dropout rates and staggering unemployment, especially among the young adults.
Old Wobbly6 hours ago
As an older white guy, I couldn't agree more with Robyn. Many of my friends buy into this garbage and they of course started down this path when they voted for St. Ronald the Smiley. Horatio Alger stories, Ayn Rand, etc., is all theoretical myth. At least Marx would tell you his was a theory of probabilties based on the Adam Smith model. I really think this myth is perpetuated somewhat by a cosmology driven by Calvinism, i.e., if I have stuff, if I am successful it is because God has elected me and those that don't obviously were given the gift of faith and are therefore damned, so why bother with them. Time to man up guys, Robyn is right. Look at the facts. Are you better off than you were in the 1980s? And just to get off topic is it patriotic to invest in offshore banks?
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Aqua7 hours ago
Its the famous liberal two-step: First screw something up, then claim that its screwed up because theres not enough government oversight (its the free market run wild!), and then step in and really screw it up in the name of reform.
The when their illogical and twisted arguments fail, they just call you stupid. Nice try, Robyn. But as a "white guy" who worked my butt off to move from a blue collar career to a white collar profession, I am outraged at your blatant attempt to somehow paint "me" as dumb simply because we have differing views!
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anon anon60 minutes ago
Aqua: She's not trying to paint you as being dumb. She's simply stating a fact chump.
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sergeant7 hours ago
I heard the moron this morning when Meet the Press interrupted the Olympics...you know, the Rachel Madow moron, avoid a question that bore on this topic and to keep her quiet, they let her blah blah and blah. Yes, the lines are drawn, but they have been drawn since the last election, I guess it was the icing..the Acorns and the inability of the people to get together and speak to one another because many of the new congresspersons refuse to move to Washington and spend their weekends travelling What a bunch of dolts.
onethatcares
(16,204 posts)discovered the Tampa Bay Times had a comment section online.
I'm impressed with the comments and heartened that others in my community feel the same way
about people voting against their own interests.
Response to DonCoquixote (Original post)
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Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)"Obama" runs around "insulting lower class whites"?
Care to elaborate on that statement?
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)Not an insult, because it was taken out of context.
Obama did NOT mean "you did not build your business" but rather "you did not build the American system that makes a sucessful business possible"
Yet the message from the liberal side of the media seems to have been less to explain that fact than to jump in with "Obama was right, you didn't build your business."
Lone_Star_Dem
(28,158 posts)I understood the meaning. We're not all hypersensitive and ignorant you know.
If anything, I was insulted that it was distorted to imply we were "up in arms" and "insulted" by the wording.
Bluerthanblue
(13,669 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)2) You SAID "Obama and liberals insult..."
But you can't respond, here, because rightfully that post was hidden.
Bluerthanblue
(13,669 posts)I think the author has some valid points to make.
The fable of the 'self-made man' is just that. A fable, and a fluke these days. The reality that women and people of color have (on the whole) never bought into the concept so we are less apt to fall under its spell makes sense.
Your theory that "Obama and liberals insult lower class whites far more than they serve them, might have something, at least a little bit to do with lack of support among lower class whites." doesn't make much sense to me.
Would you make the same claim about evangelical 'christ'ians as well?
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Right?
Bluerthanblue
(13,669 posts)how is that any less insulting?
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Allen West and Michael Steele told me..
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)How many votes does this sort of thing get us?
99Forever
(14,524 posts)I found the general tone of this writer's crap to be demeaning and insulting. If similar insults were aimed at women or blacks or Jews or ... etc, we would be seeing an explosion of "How dare you stereotype US!!!!!!!!!!"
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Try religion. Geography.
Bluerthanblue
(13,669 posts)be completely turned off by the republican mindset/agenda, seem to cling to it even to their own detriment?
99Forever
(14,524 posts)Why would you even ask me, a hardcore liberal, Social Democrat that stupid fucking question? How the fuck would I know what those asses think?
Bluerthanblue
(13,669 posts)and why.
Did you actually read it or just react to the title?
99Forever
(14,524 posts).. see that it was filled with broadbrush generalizations. you know the SAME kind of crap that politically correct people go ballistic over when it's aimed anyone but "white guys." And if it did answer your fucking question, then once again I ask, why the fuck are you asking me? Shopping for a pissing match?
Bluerthanblue
(13,669 posts)looking for a pissing match, I'm responding to your post which discounts any value to what the author said because you found their tone to be demeaning and insulting. Are you interested in discussion or in just being angry and snarky?
The author didn't say 'all white males' if you read it carefully, you'll see that. You don't seem to be able to get past the title- which I will agree was a poor choice. I almost didn't bother to click on the link and read it because I expected it to be a stilted strange rant- when in fact, it is instead an attempt to understand what motivates a segment of the population to embrace a perspective which is actually a self-destructive one.
The author isn't placing BLAME on 'blue collar white males' who vote against their own interests- rather she points to how our society and culture pretty much has forced many 'blue collar white males' into a position where they are taught to see themselves as 'failures' if they don't become mini millionaires, and worthless human beings if they are among those who have had their jobs lost or destroyed and their careers ended by private equity companies like Bain- she says the myth... the unrealistic expectations that many 'white blue collar males' are operating under- needs to end. I agree. Hard working people don't always succeed, NOT because they don't measure up, or are doing anything wrong- but because of 'luck' or bad 'luck.
you needn't bother to reply if my attempt to explain this only makes you angrier. That isn't my desire or intent.
I wish you peace.
Lone_Star_Dem
(28,158 posts)The differential is staggering. Non-college-educated white men give Romney a 37-point advantage over President Barack Obama according to a recent ABC News/Washington Post poll. Why would struggling wage earners support a candidate who would give tax cuts to the top 1 percent, a group that controls 43 percent of the wealth in the country, while adding to the tax burdens of people at the lower end of the income scale? Racial issues aside and I'm not discounting the significant "black president" factor, it comes down to the power of myth and story.
White men have been fed the myth of the rags-to-riches, self-made man, the quintessential American narrative that says hard work and perseverance will equate to success. The idea cemented in the male cerebral cortex is that people who start from nothing can work themselves from the Horatio Alger mailroom to the corner office.
The unflattering flip side of this is that failure is a character flaw. If you don't succeed, you didn't work hard enough. As the story goes, anyone who takes government help falls into this category.
Just to make it a bit easier to lure people to read it in its entirety.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Here is a little more sophisticated analysis..
http://themonkeycage.org/blog/2012/03/23/voting-patterns-of-americas-whites-from-the-masses-to-the-elites/
What does this say about Americas elites? If you define elites as high-income non-Hispanic whites, the elites vote strongly Republican. If you define elites as college-educated high-income whites, they vote moderately Republican.
There is no plausible way based on these data in which elites can be considered a Democratic voting bloc. To create a group of strongly Democratic-leaning elite whites using these graphs, you would need to consider only postgraduates (no simple college grads included, even if they have achieved social and financial success), and you have to go down to the below-$75,000 level of family income, which hardly seems like the American elites to me.
The patterns are consistent for all three of the past presidential elections. (The differences in the higher-income low-education category should not be taken seriously, as the estimates are based on small samples, as can be seen from the large standard errors for those subgroups.)
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)Yes: this poster is a Minority, aka a Puerto Rican.
Yes: I live in Florida,
Yes: I realize that most of the DU audience is not like the people that are GOP, that most of them really do want social justice.
Yes: I realize that the rare racists who post here are often trolls or Dinos.
Ok, I have given a litany, which I am sure will be ignored by some.
Wait, one more:
I also concede that this article would have been better named "what Americans tell themselves", as many Americans of all creeds, colors and whatever categories buy into the Horatio Alger crap.
However, can I offer people something to ponder?
Whenever a non white culture has issues, they are always told that there is some problem within the culture that is to blame. Now, introspection is good, and yes, every culture has issues.
But somehow, the dominant "white" culture is never called upon to do the same. They are never asked what about their "culture" may account for poverty or sickness. No , I am not talking redneck jokes, I am talking about a serious inquiry about the culture. Joe Bageant talked about this, where Whites were not prone to asking themselves about how they arrived where they are, because that would be beneath them somehow. There is a default that says that if a white person does the right things, they will succeed, and it is a lie that not only hurts darker people, but is brutal on the Willy Lomans and others that get ground to ash by this myth!
Criminals come in all colors, and indeed, soon we will see all sorts of people snap and run amok. But, at the risk of being hated, could it be that the reason we have a lot of people running amok with assualt weapons in suicidal shootings could be that we fed these middle aged or young men the belief that life should just bow to them, because all it takes is talent and hard work, no luck at all? The idea that if you are not successful, it just means God does not like you?
Bluerthanblue
(13,669 posts)for posting the OP- I for one, would never have stumbled upon it otherwise, and it did offer an interesting perspective and something to seriously consider.