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cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
Tue Aug 14, 2012, 12:48 PM Aug 2012

Why reasonable people believe in free trade *conceptually*

Last edited Tue Aug 14, 2012, 05:51 PM - Edit history (3)

Some contemporary attitudes about free trade throw out a lot of baby with the bathwater.

Nobody in her right mind questions that free trade does create more net wealth. That is almost as basic in economics as supply and demand. Almost all economists know this.

But that does not mean that anything somebody calls free trade is benign, or that newly created wealth will benefit common people.

What happens to that new wealth is largely a political issue. If a nation's politics are wicked then free trade will work out wickedly... as will any other approach.

The 50 United States are an excellent example of the conceptual beauty of free trade. North Carolina has a lot of pine trees. For that reason, NC makes a lot of furniture. Because there is a lot of furniture made there, wood-milling and upholstery companies locate there. The local work force is full of people with specific skills—people who know how to work in a furniture factory.

NC becomes more and more efficient at making furniture. That efficiency makes NC furniture better and/or less expensive. And because our system forbids states from barring products from other states, all that NC furniture is exported to other states without any tariffs or barriers.

If each state tried to be furniture self-sufficient the average cost of furniture would sky-rocket. It is not practical for every state to have the timber and the clustered factories and the furniture-skilled workforce.

As transportation becomes more efficient (like railroads), the cost of moving furniture gets low enough that almost everyone gets a better deal buying furniture from NC than making it in their own state.

Ideally, State X is as efficient at something else as NC is at furniture. If State X is good at growing corn the people in NC do best buying State X corn and people in State X do best buying NC furniture. Working people in both State X and in NC get better value for their money. They are wealthier than if NC and State X were both furniture and corn independent. They all can afford more corn and more furniture.

This is why all economists value free trade, conceptually. In the abstract it creates far more net wealth than protectionism. In the abstract, efficiency is good for everyone.

The problems are largely political. How is the maximized wealth distributed?

A system that creates a bigger pie but does not share that pie leads to less pie for the average person. But that is not the pie's fault!

Say State Z has plenty of pine trees and a furniture industry, but NC bans unions while State Z does not. NC workers get paid less, making NC furniture cheaper. This hurts unionized furniture makers in State Z. So State Z imposes a big tax on NC furniture to protect their furniture industry. But to New York (huge market) the NC furniture is still cheaper. There is only so much State Z can do. It cannot order New Yorkers to buy her furniture.

But that is not a problem with free trade, per se. It is a problem with NC banning unions. It is a political problem. There is nothing intrinsic to free trade that forces NC to ban unions. It is NC screwing workers to benefit the owners of furniture factories. The furniture factory's desire to screw the workers would exist with or without free trade.

The political decision to ban unions in NC destabilizes what was a perfectly good system, and it serves to export NC's crummy labor law. Poltical policy lowers wages to gain a competitive advantage for factory owners. But free trade didn't ban the union. Free trade greatly increased the market for exported furniture, so it should have benefited those workers.

I do not know that "fair trade" between nations is possible. If everyone cheats and everyone creates subsidized advantages and disadvantages it's a problem. It is possible that in the real world the US will get hosed in every trade scenario.

But there are compelling reasons why almost any economist will consider herself a free-trader in general terms because comparative advantage creates wealth and protectionism is inefficient by design and is bound to lead to a somewhat smaller pie.

But if business rigs things so that workers don't get their share of the bigger free-trade pie then workers will not like free trade.

Here's the big thought experiment. If we stopped trading with China would the average American worker's standard of living go up or down? Would wages go up more than prices would? What would the effect be on the US environment? Is there a reason that Americans' time making plastic crap would be so much more valuable than a Chinese worker's time making plastic crap?

Summing Up: The problems with free trade are not problems with free trade as a concept. They are practical problems with governments... problems that can be so large that they outweigh the benefits of free trade. The evidence that free trade creates net wealth for somebody is vast. If you were designing an ideal world it would have free trade. It would, however, have vastly different government approaches to accumulated wealth, environmental issues, human rights, and minimum guaranteed standards of living.

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Why reasonable people believe in free trade *conceptually* (Original Post) cthulu2016 Aug 2012 OP
"Nobody in her right mind questions that free trade does create more net wealth." lumberjack_jeff Aug 2012 #1
I agree, but that is largely a matter of American political choices cthulu2016 Aug 2012 #3
In the case of labor, there will always be a more desperate citizenry to exploit. lumberjack_jeff Aug 2012 #13
Untrue. FBaggins Aug 2012 #10
We're only consumers to the extent that we have disposable income with which to do it. lumberjack_jeff Aug 2012 #14
I won't quibble about "disposable"... but otherwise yes. FBaggins Aug 2012 #18
Your concept while elegant, is incomplete and seems to blame government. freshwest Aug 2012 #2
I do blame (our specific) government cthulu2016 Aug 2012 #8
Reagan would never have approved of free trade with communist countries. reformist2 Aug 2012 #9
China holds our debt, doesn't have healthcare or capital gains taxes. freshwest Aug 2012 #12
My view: It's too late to stop globalization YoungDemCA Aug 2012 #4
When every business decides to move their factory to China, free trade becomes a problem. reformist2 Aug 2012 #5
Rec treestar Aug 2012 #6
The opposite of 'free trade' is 'autarchy' and history shows that nations coalition_unwilling Aug 2012 #7
You've covered cases of absolute advantage FBaggins Aug 2012 #11
Original Free Trade assumes CAPITAL IS IMMOBILE arendt Aug 2012 #15
Right. closeupready Aug 2012 #17
I will be equally polite cthulu2016 Aug 2012 #19
Look, I'm quoting Reich or Nader. Not sure which. What you describe is NOT free trade... arendt Aug 2012 #21
If we have true free trade, I should be able to work in Mexico, even if closeupready Aug 2012 #16
I agree cthulu2016 Aug 2012 #20
A race to the bottom creates wealth too... arendt Aug 2012 #22
That's $2 Trillion of working capital, not $2 n/t arendt Aug 2012 #23
+1 Populist_Prole Aug 2012 #24
Why kid ourselves about theory of what "free trade" would be like in a perfect world? Populist_Prole Aug 2012 #25
+1 ... 1StrongBlackMan Aug 2012 #26
Free trade is not what we have Progressive dog Aug 2012 #27
Interesting but not the whole picture limpyhobbler Aug 2012 #28
Kick. Luminous Animal Aug 2012 #29
 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
1. "Nobody in her right mind questions that free trade does create more net wealth."
Tue Aug 14, 2012, 12:50 PM
Aug 2012

Sure. But if you're an american, you're the source of that new international wealth, not the recipient.

cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
3. I agree, but that is largely a matter of American political choices
Tue Aug 14, 2012, 01:07 PM
Aug 2012

Competition with workers with much lower expectations of standard of living is a real concern for we rich nations.

It is, however, a fair economic question to ask whether that competition can be avoided, and if so, is the method of avoiding it more expensive than the problem?

If the net pie is made bigger (which history strongly suggests) then there should be a way to divide that pie that makes people's lives better.

A smaller pie won't help. That's what I mean about the baby and the bathwater. Americans need help. That help cannot come from arbitrarily making workers swap money around among themselves. (Higher prices for goods in exchange for more domestic jobs.)

A more fair division of the pie would help American workers a lot more than protectionism would, but we can't talk about that. For some reason that is beyond discussion in America.

The people at the top are happy to have American workers blaming Chinese workers for their problems. It's a good distraction from the ballooning inequality here within America.

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
13. In the case of labor, there will always be a more desperate citizenry to exploit.
Tue Aug 14, 2012, 04:22 PM
Aug 2012

Now that wages in China, Poland and Southeast Asia are growing, expect to see offshoring to Africa.

There's nothing good in it for american workers, not in our lifetimes and probably not in our grandchildrens.

FBaggins

(26,775 posts)
10. Untrue.
Tue Aug 14, 2012, 01:57 PM
Aug 2012

That is... unless you're not a consumer of goods and services.

The problem comes when the resulting jobs are outsourced/insourced. It's never the same people gaining/losing employment... and the ones losing their jobs are the ones we read about (for obvious reasons).

Of course... there's a bigger problem when the trade is not "free" (that is... when one side trades in good faith and the other doesn't).

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
14. We're only consumers to the extent that we have disposable income with which to do it.
Tue Aug 14, 2012, 04:23 PM
Aug 2012

In the US, that generally means selling your labor.

FBaggins

(26,775 posts)
18. I won't quibble about "disposable"... but otherwise yes.
Tue Aug 14, 2012, 04:32 PM
Aug 2012

But does it make sense for a million consumers to pay $1 extra per (whatever) every year to save five $50,000/year jobs?

If you're one of the five... or know one of the five... or live in the same town as one of the five - the answer would probably be "yes".

From a public policy perspective, the net effect is supposed to be a positive. Which is why both democratic and republican administrations have advanced free trade.

The trick comes in what extent you try to massage what is being lost/gained to ensure that the calculus usually works out that way.

freshwest

(53,661 posts)
2. Your concept while elegant, is incomplete and seems to blame government.
Tue Aug 14, 2012, 01:03 PM
Aug 2012

The government responded to those who came to it and demanded a global structure. The corporation that created the furniture manufacture business used influence and brought us to the situation currently at hand. Because they decided to use the international model, not the prior model, which had served us well in the past. And they did it to spite workers intentionally and increase profits in the Bain model, not to keep a viable business in NC.

cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
8. I do blame (our specific) government
Tue Aug 14, 2012, 01:19 PM
Aug 2012

Free Trade is a scapegoat for Reaganism. American real wages have been almost flat-lined since 1980 but concentrated American wealth has exploded during that period.

And that seems to be by government design.

If we are helpless in the face of domestic kleptocratic politics then what power could we have to change the nature of international trade?

I think that some of our trade discontent is quite convenient for rich Americans. It is a distraction.

If we had single payer and a $15/hour minimum wage it would help American workers a lot. A lot more than changing trade policy.

Big business will never allow a decent domestic society OR trade barriers, yet they are comfortable with us focusing on trade as a problem because that offers an international scapegoat for a domestic problem.

China has no say in whether we have single payer healthcare, or whether we tax capital gains at a sensible rate.

freshwest

(53,661 posts)
12. China holds our debt, doesn't have healthcare or capital gains taxes.
Tue Aug 14, 2012, 02:31 PM
Aug 2012

So they do have a lot to say and have threatened more than once to dump the debt on the market to hurt the USA. The old saying 'the debtor is slave to the creditor' still applies, whether we like or not. They knew we didn't have the money when they loaned us, the same as other countries that hold our debt, and they believe we should live no better than their people do.

They decided to take their payment in kind while waiting for those dollars, with tools, dies, machinery, and all that the USA once owned to make things. We no longer have the means to produce things for sale. That is why Obama had to take the risk of investing money in the industries we could still have to make things of value.

This is not the first time a foreign creditor has been given part of our manufacturing base because we owed them money, just we owed the Japanese after the Vietnam war and surrendered our steel industry and a lot of the auto industry to them. The Chinese have done a more thorough job of it. And they had the right to do so.

It is true many American citizens and funds own a great part of the American government debt, as well as Europeans. But you're discussing manufacture and free trade and there has never been free trade as the undergirding landscape of trade has been marred with the oppression of those within those societies and conquest of others through warfare and colonization.

In the case of the debt that has driven American government policy, this likewise is laid at the feet of the people who made their demands of the government, not just the corporations and all the people they employ. The American people, frightened by media after 911 and with right wingers voted in sufficient numbers, despite the fraud on the victory, to give Bush enough time to nearly finish selling the store. The government stood in the middle and now the Romney Ryan ticket with the Koch brothers at the helm intend to eliminate that and have us serve them directly.

They are not hiding their intentions any longer as they had to do in the Reagan era because people were still heavily involved in the process of government and forced them to back off. That was the role of the rise of right wing religion, to get people into churches and away from meaningful public discourse.

If you walk away from government, corporatists take over. There is never a vacuum in power, no magical freedom, liberty and prosperity that will appear by eliminating government. That is the mantra pushed by the Koch family. Because they want a vacuum they can fill for generations, so that their rule will never be questioned.

Now, the Libertarian Party, is a *capitalist* party. It's in favor of what *I* would regard a
*particular form* of authoritarian control. Namely, the kind that comes through private ownership and control, which is an *extremely* rigid system of domination -- people have to... people can survive, by renting themselves to it, and basically in no other way... I do disagree with them *very* sharply, and I think that they are not.. understanding the *fundamental* doctrine, that you should be free from domination and control, including the control of the manager and the owner.
~ Noam Chomsky

It requires government to do this:

...an essential feature of a decent society, and an almost defining feature of a democratic society, is relative equality of outcome -- not opportunity, but outcome. Without that you can't seriously talk about a democratic state... These concepts of the common good have a long life. They lie right at the core of classical liberalism, of Enlightenment thinking... Like Aristotle, [Adam] Smith understood that the common good will require substantial intervention to assure lasting prosperity of the poor by distribution of public revenues.
~ Noam Chomsky on The Common Good

If you're going to explore free trade or free market views here, please note that the Libertarian Party and all its offshoots are creations of the Koch family. Please take a moment with either this video or read the transcript as it's much faster:

Thom Hartmann: Conservative Millennials, Boomers & Libertarians all being Conned

http://www.democraticunderground.com/101744227

We are approaching the end of the Bill of Rights, the Constitution and the entire system of government if we are seduced by their doctrine. Because they've already declared those and the government they founded with all its imperfections, to be nothing more than paper. And they don't believe any of it. My reply may or may not be of any use to you, as we may talking at cross purposes here cudgeling out solutions to what we are faced with.

 

YoungDemCA

(5,714 posts)
4. My view: It's too late to stop globalization
Tue Aug 14, 2012, 01:10 PM
Aug 2012

The question is, for whom does globalization benefit?

That's where the debate should be.

reformist2

(9,841 posts)
5. When every business decides to move their factory to China, free trade becomes a problem.
Tue Aug 14, 2012, 01:14 PM
Aug 2012

Some economists will point to a few "high-end" industries that still export to China, but they are only kidding themselves. It's only a matter of time before the Chinese are making those products as well.

What we need is a new economic system that takes labor-cost arbitrage out of the equation. A tariff on imports tied to the difference in labor costs between making the product here vs. making it in the exporting country would go a long way in addressing this problem.

Here's an example: Let's say a TV made in China sells for $200, but a US-made one sells for $400. Let's also assume the labor cost for each TV made in China is $20 but in the US is $200. If we impose a tariff of $180 - the difference in labor costs - then the Chinese TV will sell for $380 vs the $400 TV, and we have elminated the incentive for businesses to move their factories overseas just to avoid paying American-level wages.

 

coalition_unwilling

(14,180 posts)
7. The opposite of 'free trade' is 'autarchy' and history shows that nations
Tue Aug 14, 2012, 01:15 PM
Aug 2012

that commit to policies of 'autarchy' (like Nazi Germany from 1933-39) have small but measurable declines in per-capita standards of living. Don't have the citations ready to hand, but they do exist.

'Free trade' gets legitimacy from the theory of 'comparative advantage' whereby each locality does what it does best and 'farms out the rest' (by way of trade). Thus, the U.S. might excel at furniture making (to use your example) but lag somewhat in cheese production. The French have developed expertise in cheese making but really suck at making furniture. Thus it is to the advantage of citizens of both countries that free trade exist so that French consumers can get their hands on great furniture, while American consumers eat Brie and Camembert and not be forced to only consume the waxen Velveeta.

FBaggins

(26,775 posts)
11. You've covered cases of absolute advantage
Tue Aug 14, 2012, 02:01 PM
Aug 2012

but it's important to remember that free trade can be beneficial to both sides of an exchange even in cases where one country makes everything cheaper than the other country if they each have a comparative advantage in some areas.

arendt

(5,078 posts)
15. Original Free Trade assumes CAPITAL IS IMMOBILE
Tue Aug 14, 2012, 04:24 PM
Aug 2012

So that local capitalists invest locally. Then, and only then, does true competition ensue.

What we have now is that the capital is free to go to places like China, where the artificially low price of labor (created by outsourced capital and an authoritarian state) distort the true price of production and cause more furniture to be made in China than Carolina.

Mobile capital = Race to the Bottom.

So, basically, you are WRONG; but I was polite enough not to put that in the title.

cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
19. I will be equally polite
Tue Aug 14, 2012, 05:28 PM
Aug 2012

You are citing a policy problem to tell me that I am wrong in saying that the defects in free trade arise from policy problems.

In the case of the US and China, much net wealth has been created by trading, and that is all comparative advantage says. Comparative advantage doesn't say what will be done with that wealth after it is created.

That's the whole point of the OP. The OP is about why free trade is a good thing in concept, despite its failing in practice. It is not a defense of exporting jobs or whatever.

(First, if China's labor is artificially low, or her currency artificially low then that is not free trade and we can put tariffs on Chinese goods in retaliation to see if that helps.)

US/China trade has created much wealth on both sides. We, for whatever crazy reason, chose to have political policies that ensure that the average person does not benefit from the very real wealth created by that trade. But American rich people benefit greatly. (I doubt anyone would question that.)

The pie actually is bigger, so why are we hungry? The fact that American workers do not benefit from that wealth is not a defect in free trade. It is a defect in our tax code, our health-care system, or safety net, our college costs...

Which is the point of the OP... that economists favor free trade conceptually because it does create wealth, but it is not free trade's fault what we, as a nation, chose to do with that wealth. And free trade is easily distorted by policy.

Free trade does not dictate that we be a net importer simply because we are wealthy. Germany is a massive exporter. I don't know that Germans are all slaves locked in toy factories.

We make terrible political choices.

arendt

(5,078 posts)
21. Look, I'm quoting Reich or Nader. Not sure which. What you describe is NOT free trade...
Tue Aug 14, 2012, 06:12 PM
Aug 2012

it is a race to the bottom.

You can go on all you want about the free market, but without capital-mobility restrictions, it simply does not exist.

I am not going to let you redefine a term when that redefinition is to the disadvantage of the Democratic cause.

Your definition of free trade is the GLOBALIST definition of free trade. Free trade was originally created among nation states. These days, the bulk of international trade is carried within various national companies of a single multi-national corporation.

You really have to reallze that promoting an incorrect and obsolete definition, you are giving ammunition to the corporatists and globalists. Tell me about "free trade" in the light of the WTO and their many rulings overturning the laws of nation states regarding environmental protection, labeling, etc.

Then tell me again how this pestilential globalist regime is "free trade".

 

closeupready

(29,503 posts)
16. If we have true free trade, I should be able to work in Mexico, even if
Tue Aug 14, 2012, 04:28 PM
Aug 2012

it displaces a Mexican.

Or Canada.

However, that is certainly not the case.

We do not have 'free trade'. It's something else entirely.

cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
20. I agree
Tue Aug 14, 2012, 05:30 PM
Aug 2012

The OP is not a claim that we have free trade, or that free trade must benefit all workers.

It is simply trying to explain that free trade creates wealth. As to why that wealth doesn't end up in your pocket or mine is a political policy question.

And as to why trade is not free, that is also a policy question.

arendt

(5,078 posts)
22. A race to the bottom creates wealth too...
Tue Aug 14, 2012, 06:17 PM
Aug 2012

wealth for the slaveowners at the top. And that is all they care about.

Once again, I ask you to look at your definitions. In this case, "wealth".

See David Korten, regarding "Creating Wealth, vs Extracting Value". The race to the bottom extracts value from underpaid workers. It doesn't create any real wealth, except in the bank accounts of jerks like Romney. Workers are paid less and are unable to buy things. This hurts the economy. The money they were not paid sits around in bank accounts, like the $2 of working capital the corporations will not invest because the workers have no money to buy anything. Or the estimated $12 Trillion dollars that has been stolen and put in offshore accounts by the super rich over the last few decades.

Free trade is not fair trade; and we need fair, not free, if we are going to create any wealth for anyone but the 1%.

Populist_Prole

(5,364 posts)
25. Why kid ourselves about theory of what "free trade" would be like in a perfect world?
Tue Aug 14, 2012, 06:25 PM
Aug 2012

The system that supports labor arbitrage and rent-seeking is far too entrenched and woven into public policy.

It's better to fight these people than try to change them.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
26. +1 ...
Tue Aug 14, 2012, 06:33 PM
Aug 2012

I just wish our resident "Free Trade Expert" would read this post, as we recently had a "Free Trade = Slave Labor/That is not what Free Trade is about" argument.

limpyhobbler

(8,244 posts)
28. Interesting but not the whole picture
Tue Aug 14, 2012, 09:05 PM
Aug 2012

Roughly I think you're saying that trade creates wealth and then we ought to be using government to redistribute that wealth to make sure it benefits the whole society and not just a select few, and also that we ought to regulate commerce such as by wage and labor laws to make sure people are protected and prevent a race to the bottom.

It's not a crazy idea, but it is really incomplete. I think basically you summarized the liberal position.

One problem with it is that since governments are national, while corporations are multinational, in some sense they operate beyond the reach of the law. So it's not really a problem with our government, but rather with the scope of national governments in general. We would really need some kind of international system to enforce regulation on multinational companies. The trade regimes that do exist, like the WTO, are designed to destroy so-called "trade barriers" while many of those barriers are the exact things we need to protect workers, environment, consumer safety, human rights, and democracy.

Even if trade regimes like WTO and TPP had protections built in, they still fail because they are essentially undemocratic regimes and unaccountable to the people who have to live with their policies.

The one "free trade zone" (as far as I can think of) that did attempt to enforce serious protections for labor, environment, democracy, etc. was the European Union. The European Social Charter and various enforceable EU laws provided those basic protections to accompany the "free trade". That was what allowed the west European Labour and Social Democratic parties to sign on to the idea of a European free trade area.

As liberals and such, I think we all agree that unregulated commerce and industry always creates social problems and inequality and uses natural resources, and so that's why we support regulation and redistribution. But international commerce is beyond the reach of the law because capital can just move to another country to escape laws it doesn't like. Economic union must be accompanied by political union, to some extent. At least a strong treaty. That's why we had then Senator Obama talking about re-negotiating NAFTA when he was running for President in 2008. People now get the idea that unregulated trade does not benefit the masses of the people.

Beyond that, I think there are even deeper problems with the international "free-trade" capitalist regime as an unsustainable way of life that depends upon constant growth, constantly expanding the pie, in order to keep functioning. If it stops growing it crashes and causes the social problems and provisioning problems that always follow. That's a more general complaint with a system based on profit-making instead of serving human need and preserving our natural resources.

Getting in over my head though. ☮


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