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Before I forget, no candidate with a D can run without releasing 8 years tax returns. (Original Post) Eliot Rosewater Nov 2018 OP
what does that accomplish if it only applies to dems AlexSFCA Nov 2018 #1
"Be the change you want to see". Regardless of what Republicans do, I want to see tax returns. Tarheel_Dem Nov 2018 #2
Of course. thanks Eliot Rosewater Nov 2018 #8
Bullshit, this does nothing... AZ8theist Nov 2018 #45
It would be great if both parties "adopted transparency", however, I'm not a Republican and have... Tarheel_Dem Nov 2018 #49
Agreed, but.. AZ8theist Nov 2018 #50
It's not wasted, because we get to choose who we want to represent us on the world stage, and not... Tarheel_Dem Nov 2018 #70
and because we set the example still_one Nov 2018 #106
+1 Tarheel_Dem Nov 2018 #148
It helps get the cleanest JustAnotherGen Nov 2018 #78
+1 Tarheel_Dem Nov 2018 #89
We're not republicans. Tavarious Jackson Nov 2018 #6
So we show ours and they don't and that's smart how? realmirage Nov 2018 #26
What are you afraid of? Tavarious Jackson Nov 2018 #34
I explained exactly what I'm afraid of. realmirage Nov 2018 #72
Any candidate that has something to hide in their financials is ehrnst Nov 2018 #138
If we DON'T release returns, we lose all moral authority to demand that pnwmom Nov 2018 #65
That is most assuredly an added bonus! NurseJackie Nov 2018 #134
Any candidate should have to show Cha Nov 2018 #3
Works for me mcar Nov 2018 #4
Let us know when you have the power to enforce your new rule. Autumn Nov 2018 #5
People have the power. Tavarious Jackson Nov 2018 #7
Wonder why anyone would be against this? Eliot Rosewater Nov 2018 #9
They don't like transparency? Tavarious Jackson Nov 2018 #11
Maybe ... because they're taking money from a foreign government? FakeNoose Nov 2018 #85
No. We people don't have the power to arbitrarily make rules. Autumn Nov 2018 #18
A candidate who does not publish, does not get my vote jberryhill Nov 2018 #153
I understand that. If the candidate who wins the nomination of your parties primary refuses to Autumn Nov 2018 #156
You're making zero sense here jberryhill Nov 2018 #157
What I said is... if you want to make it a rule for one party it's better to make it a law that Autumn Nov 2018 #158
Curious about your response. Caliman73 Nov 2018 #16
I think it's a very reasonable request and should be a law, not a rule. Republicans will Autumn Nov 2018 #22
We shouldn't care what Republicans insist we do, or that they don't do. Caliman73 Nov 2018 #27
Love your responses and reasoning. I didnt anticipate any opposition to my idea. Eliot Rosewater Nov 2018 #38
You are welcome. Caliman73 Nov 2018 #58
If the OP lives in any number of states that allow ballot initiatives s/he would have the power. xmas74 Nov 2018 #67
That would work as long as it's for both parties and IMO only the higher offices. Autumn Nov 2018 #71
actually any state has the power to enforce that rule dsc Nov 2018 #167
They could , doesn't mean they will. I think that's pretty low on the priority list. Autumn Nov 2018 #168
Depends on the office they are running for Jersey Devil Nov 2018 #10
President. nt Tavarious Jackson Nov 2018 #12
certainly pres, and many others like senator, congress, etc Jersey Devil Nov 2018 #13
Had not thought of that, you may be right. Eliot Rosewater Nov 2018 #14
When I ran for local council in NJ Jersey Devil Nov 2018 #15
When you're right you're right and you're right! Eliot Rosewater Nov 2018 #17
That's exactly it, and you can't make one party do it when the other doesn't have to. Autumn Nov 2018 #23
I'm down with your rule. Small-Axe Nov 2018 #19
Agreed Gothmog Nov 2018 #21
Agreed grantcart Nov 2018 #33
+1 ProudLib72 Nov 2018 #60
A couple of blue states have also made this the law Gothmog Nov 2018 #20
Works for me. sheshe2 Nov 2018 #24
For people who believe Sanders has no chance at getting the nomination there sure are realmirage Nov 2018 #25
Sanders? Eliot Rosewater Nov 2018 #29
He thinks "BS has a chance" because Cha Nov 2018 #147
Chance of what? Small-Axe Nov 2018 #35
I fear that Putin will try to help sanders again so as to help trump Gothmog Nov 2018 #48
I see it precisely the same way. Small-Axe Nov 2018 #51
We are not alone Gothmog Nov 2018 #98
Using Russia to smear Bernie Sanders? realmirage Nov 2018 #74
Read the USA story or the Mueller indictment Gothmog Nov 2018 #96
BAM! I'm almost certain you won't get a response. Tarheel_Dem Nov 2018 #105
I'll read it as soon as I stop "lulzing". N/T lapucelle Nov 2018 #109
"Lulz"? You don't see that expression used alot these days, especially here. lapucelle Nov 2018 #108
He didn't say "smear" he said "help". George II Nov 2018 #114
You seem to hate giving that capital S to Sen. Sanders name n/t Devil Child Nov 2018 #95
I also do not capitalize nader's name for much the same reason Gothmog Nov 2018 #97
Whatever helps you cope I guess n/t Devil Child Nov 2018 #102
I cope by working to protect the vote and elect real Democrats Gothmog Nov 2018 #117
That is an admirable coping skill and one I support Devil Child Nov 2018 #123
Texas will turn blue Gothmog Nov 2018 #124
That's why I always use quick and easy capitalized initials...BS. N/T lapucelle Nov 2018 #110
Yeah, capitalize BS. Cha Nov 2018 #146
Post removed Post removed Nov 2018 #73
He lost by 4 million votes to HRC. Small-Axe Nov 2018 #79
... mcar Nov 2018 #84
I would love to see sanders tax returns Gothmog Nov 2018 #44
I really want to see Sanders taxes. Wintryjade Nov 2018 #46
Post removed Post removed Nov 2018 #75
Democrats believe in full disclosure Gothmog Nov 2018 #115
a lot of posts on DU treestar Nov 2018 #57
Your claim that the people here are realmirage Nov 2018 #77
reality always helps treestar Nov 2018 #83
Sanders will not be the nominee of the Democratic Party Gothmog Nov 2018 #116
When you become chair of the DNC please let us know. former9thward Nov 2018 #28
What can I say, I like transparency. Eliot Rosewater Nov 2018 #30
Well then Jerry Brown is not your friend. former9thward Nov 2018 #31
DONT tell me who my friends are, do NOT. You have no CLUE who I am and who my friends are. Eliot Rosewater Nov 2018 #32
Since you are playing word games former9thward Nov 2018 #39
No response melman Nov 2018 #76
You do realize it is possible to disagree with a politician mcar Nov 2018 #87
I doubt he is either. former9thward Nov 2018 #93
I like transparency mcar Nov 2018 #86
:) Our new democracy reform bill does require presidential Hortensis Nov 2018 #91
You mean the party itself has this, or do you mean a bill in the House? Eliot Rosewater Nov 2018 #92
Big legislative package in the house, to be introduced Hortensis Nov 2018 #104
Maryland and a couple of blue states have adopted ballot access laws Gothmog Nov 2018 #42
These laws will affect no one. former9thward Nov 2018 #43
Candidates who won't disclose taxes shouldn't be on the ballot Gothmog Nov 2018 #52
I have seen Tribe's arguments. former9thward Nov 2018 #61
I trust Tribe here Gothmog Nov 2018 #64
Yes I am a member of the bar and do criminal defense. former9thward Nov 2018 #66
How a party selects its nominee is not a Constitutional question. Small-Axe Nov 2018 #55
If a state restricts ballot access then it is a Constitutional question. former9thward Nov 2018 #59
It would be interesting to see who would sue Tavarious Jackson Nov 2018 #82
The larger issue is privacy. former9thward Nov 2018 #94
You give up a ton of privacy by running for office Gothmog Nov 2018 #100
The right to privacy is a core of the Constitution. former9thward Nov 2018 #121
You do understand that running for office is a personal choice? Gothmog Nov 2018 #127
That is the exact same argument anti-abortion people use. former9thward Nov 2018 #132
That analogy is so bad that it is funny Gothmog Nov 2018 #133
"but there are no penalties for ignoring it " former9thward Nov 2018 #135
In Maryland and other states with ballot access laws, you cannot get onto the ballot Gothmog Nov 2018 #160
I don't understand why there is such resistance to requiring candidates to release tax returns... George II Nov 2018 #136
Agreed Gothmog Nov 2018 #137
Um... since the early 70's, most Potus candidates have released them. ehrnst Nov 2018 #141
Why did Jerry Brown refuse to release his? former9thward Nov 2018 #144
Did he win the Dem POTUS nomination? Any of the times he ran? ehrnst Nov 2018 #154
Ok, so everytone except POTUS is exempt from the tax return argument. former9thward Nov 2018 #155
If anyone at all, it needs to be POTUS. ehrnst Nov 2018 #159
Yes, I would like to see Brown run. former9thward Nov 2018 #162
"I don't understand the fascination with tax returns." ehrnst Nov 2018 #164
So what did we learn about Trump from the FEC filings? former9thward Nov 2018 #165
Goalposts moved. ehrnst Nov 2018 #166
That is not what was posted above Gothmog Nov 2018 #161
The Democratic Party can institute a rule requiring a release of tax returns... George II Nov 2018 #113
Yes it can. former9thward Nov 2018 #119
The individual state Democratic Parties make their rules. That's why some states have primaries... George II Nov 2018 #122
No they don't former9thward Nov 2018 #145
The DNC isn't stupid enough to adopt such a rule. What a rule like this is essentially saying is - Midwestern Democrat Nov 2018 #126
trump's returns will be released by the House early next year Gothmog Nov 2018 #101
+1 uponit7771 Nov 2018 #151
Politics How States Could Force Trump to Release His Tax Returns Gothmog Nov 2018 #99
Did he say specifically why it violated the Constitution? Was it the US Constitution or California's George II Nov 2018 #112
The U.S. Constitution. former9thward Nov 2018 #120
And Brown is wrong according Proferssors Hasen and Tribe Gothmog Nov 2018 #128
There are two things involved, State laws and Party rules. Have those states... George II Nov 2018 #88
This ensures democrats will not ever encounter a TRUMP of our own. Tavarious Jackson Nov 2018 #36
I keep saying what if this happened under Obama or Hillary... Eliot Rosewater Nov 2018 #37
I absolutely agree. Tavarious Jackson Nov 2018 #47
And I could forgive someone who Eliot Rosewater Nov 2018 #54
Why eight? Why not 7? Or 6? Or 4? Or 9? Honeycombe8 Nov 2018 #40
Why not round it up to 10...I have no problem with that. Eliot Rosewater Nov 2018 #41
As long as it's not zero, or half of one that is two years old. George II Nov 2018 #118
Yes... complete returns are essential. NO FAKE OR LAME EXCUSES! NurseJackie Nov 2018 #125
I think that's a great new rule! NurseJackie Nov 2018 #53
I thought so, in fact I thought it was like when I say Eliot Rosewater Nov 2018 #56
Make a clean break from the "Rules are for sissies" stance of the present administration ProudLib72 Nov 2018 #62
I agree. brer cat Nov 2018 #63
If I ran for local office, and showed jb5150 Nov 2018 #68
OK, that was funny...probably true too but funny. Eliot Rosewater Nov 2018 #69
Wow this thread was enlightening. MrsCoffee Nov 2018 #80
Unbelievable isn't it? nt Tavarious Jackson Nov 2018 #81
It's a real head scratcher, ain't it? Tarheel_Dem Nov 2018 #90
People identify with a political group, accept the group's leader, Hortensis Nov 2018 #142
Agree with your principle but who keeps 8 years of documents? PJMcK Nov 2018 #103
many do. i am one of them. drray23 Nov 2018 #129
How many years do you keep? PJMcK Nov 2018 #131
OK, 7... Eliot Rosewater Nov 2018 #130
The IRS has 10 years worth and could be released through them no? uponit7771 Nov 2018 #152
Wrong.... whistler162 Nov 2018 #107
What does "mtwo D's in it" even mean? (nt) ehrnst Nov 2018 #140
lol aikoaiko Nov 2018 #111
What is funny about wanting candidates with nothing to hide? Eliot Rosewater Nov 2018 #143
Any candidate who refuses even this basic vetting is a time bomb. ehrnst Nov 2018 #139
I'm fine with weighing it among every other aspect of a candidate. All things being equal, I'll take JCanete Nov 2018 #149
Maryland and other blue states will have ballot access laws Gothmog Nov 2018 #163
Business records too jmowreader Nov 2018 #150

AlexSFCA

(6,137 posts)
1. what does that accomplish if it only applies to dems
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 05:38 PM
Nov 2018

are we trying to make it harder for ourselves? giving opponents valuable info to fuel rw propaganda. It should rather be state level law that anyone who runs for any office in the state must release tax returns; electorate is the employer not the state.

Tarheel_Dem

(31,223 posts)
2. "Be the change you want to see". Regardless of what Republicans do, I want to see tax returns.
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 05:41 PM
Nov 2018

Actual tax returns have a way of cutting through the rhetoric of politi-speak. Nothing to hide? Show us.

Tarheel_Dem

(31,223 posts)
49. It would be great if both parties "adopted transparency", however, I'm not a Republican and have...
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 07:55 PM
Nov 2018

no say in how they conduct their primaries. As a lifelong Democrat, I want us to hold ourselves to a higher standard. If you've got nothing to hide....show us!

Tarheel_Dem

(31,223 posts)
70. It's not wasted, because we get to choose who we want to represent us on the world stage, and not...
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 08:28 PM
Nov 2018

worry about what foreign entanglements, or shady business dealings that might pop up if they make it through to the GE. If their tax returns take them out in the primaries, then we don't have to worry about being stuck with a candidate who might really have something to hide, only find out as an October surprise in a general election. Not showing your returns is a disqualifier for me, and it sounds like a couple of state parties have made it a requirement for ballot access.

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
26. So we show ours and they don't and that's smart how?
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 06:59 PM
Nov 2018

You don't think republicans would distort the details of our candidate's returns and use it against us? Then what do we say? Yeah well they didn't even show theirs! And how did that work out for us last time?

 

Tavarious Jackson

(1,595 posts)
34. What are you afraid of?
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 07:26 PM
Nov 2018

Hillary showed 30 years and lost but it still showed that she had the most integrity of all the candidates.

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
72. I explained exactly what I'm afraid of.
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 08:36 PM
Nov 2018

Read it again. republicans don’t care that his returns are clean. They’ll distort it and run it on a loop while not releasing shit on their side. We have to fight smart or get ready to lose again.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
138. Any candidate that has something to hide in their financials is
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 08:33 PM
Nov 2018

a ticking time bomb.

Look at Trump.

Who do you think that we are "missing out on" who would refuse basic vetting?

pnwmom

(108,963 posts)
65. If we DON'T release returns, we lose all moral authority to demand that
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 08:15 PM
Nov 2018

of the other side.

The Democratic party, not the state, is what determines who runs as a Democrat. All the state Democratic parties should make something like this a rule.

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
134. That is most assuredly an added bonus!
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 03:33 PM
Nov 2018

That is most assuredly an added bonus! The biggest benefit, however, it to help make certain that we Democrats do not have to deal with a candidate who has all sorts of financial skeletons in their closet... that are revealed only AFTER the convention.

The candidates who have financial skeletons are the ones who are stand to lose the most, are are logically the ones who will complain the loudest about any such requirement.

Autumn

(45,006 posts)
18. No. We people don't have the power to arbitrarily make rules.
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 06:21 PM
Nov 2018

You can dog whoever you want, all that's happening is you are wearing yourself out. We Dems dogged Trump for his and the pukes said no... so we got no Trumpy tax returns. It's like making a rule that you can drink a full bottle of tequila chased down by a bottle of scotch and not get a hangover. Good luck with both of those non enforceable rules.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
153. A candidate who does not publish, does not get my vote
Sun Nov 18, 2018, 08:51 AM
Nov 2018

That is how the rule, like any social rule, is enforced.

Autumn

(45,006 posts)
156. I understand that. If the candidate who wins the nomination of your parties primary refuses to
Sun Nov 18, 2018, 12:11 PM
Nov 2018

do so after they win the nomination, I would think not voting for that person is a tough choice you will have to make if you are standing by that rule. It's like living in a red state and your Democratic senator decides to vote yes on BK for the supreme court and you have decided that you won't vote for someone who votes to install BK, an unfit human being when you and millions of others know he was nominated because he's willing to vote to cover up crimes for an asshole like Trump and anything else the RW loons decide push for, like ending woman's right to a safe legal abortion and rolling back Gay rights and they can shape the court for decades? Meanwhile a sleazy republican like Donny Trump Jr, has won the Republican nomination and is running against your Senator. What are you gonna do? Vote for that senator anyway or let a republican have his seat in the next election because you have this rule that you are sticking to your principals? I'm going to go on and vote for the guy who won my party's nomination even if I don't like him because he voted yes on BK and he didn't release his 8 years of taxes because I know he's not a fucking Trump. Make it a law that both sides must release 8 years of taxes upon winning their party's nomination, not a rule that as we well know one side won't bother to enforce. My two cents.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
157. You're making zero sense here
Sun Nov 18, 2018, 12:21 PM
Nov 2018

First off nobody said anything about “making a law”. The OP says it is “my new rule”.

It is mine as well.

Likewise it is a rule that I will not vote for a candidate who opposes reproductive choice. That is one of many criteria for “who gets my vote”.

To say “oh, but you don’t apply that to the other side” is pretty damned silly. That’s what MAKES them “the other side”.

Autumn

(45,006 posts)
158. What I said is... if you want to make it a rule for one party it's better to make it a law that
Sun Nov 18, 2018, 12:35 PM
Nov 2018

both parties have to abide by. I don't make fucking stupid rules that don't apply evenly. YMOFV Whatever. Good luck with your "rule"

Caliman73

(11,726 posts)
16. Curious about your response.
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 06:17 PM
Nov 2018

Do you think that it is unreasonable to have to show your tax return to run as a Democrat? Why would you make a snarky comment rather than address the part of the statement that you do not agree with?

I am genuinely curious.

There are people on DU who decry the lack of ability to have discussion about people and policies with which we disagree. I have said that when people become emotionally engaged, that dialogue or even debate is often hindered by it. I do think however, that especially a board, where responses are not instantaneous, that you have a few minutes to sit with an answer and think about it.

I often find myself writing responses and part of the way through I realize that I don't care enough, know enough, or am too upset by the subject to continue responding, so I just click away.

Again, just asking why that particular response?

Autumn

(45,006 posts)
22. I think it's a very reasonable request and should be a law, not a rule. Republicans will
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 06:35 PM
Nov 2018

always insist Democrats do it. Then when Democrats insist that the Republicans do it we get told by them to fuck off. Why impose restriction on only our side? Not a well thought out rule when you know damn good and well the other side breaks every rule they can. Why put our party at a disadvantage?

As for snark, I'm just a snarky person in non serious dramatic, yet funny proclamations. Make an OP saying I can't rag on the First Nude or FLOTITS and see just how snarky I can be.

Caliman73

(11,726 posts)
27. We shouldn't care what Republicans insist we do, or that they don't do.
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 07:02 PM
Nov 2018

We want our candidates to show their taxes to make sure that there aren't any major problems that will expose them to criticism during the primary or general. We already know Republicans will have problems with their finances.

I agree that it would be better if it were a law. But laws are the floor. They are the basic, "can't do" to avoid getting in trouble. Ethical standards and principles that we follow despite them not being laws, is what we want our candidates to do.

Look at Stacey Abrams. I know that she just lost, but she ran a heck of a campaign in racist Georgia against a corrupt bastard who was overseeing the election and was her opponent. She had financial difficulties that showed up in her taxes, but that did not end up being a problem for her in the race at all. She was able to use the information as a way to relate to everyday people. I have fallen behind on my taxes and have worked out a plan to pay. It happens. If I ever planned to run, I would make sure that I was transparent about my situation.

What you won't see on my taxes is anything shady, any payouts to Russian oligarchs or any purchases of land a highly inflated prices (laundering).

We don't want candidates like the last example. Hillary Clinton released more than a decades worth of taxes from both her personal and the Clinton Foundation. That is not what beat her. 30 years of false stories, and cheating from Republicans did it.

If releasing your taxes is a disadvantage, then perhaps the candidate is not ready to run for office.

Eliot Rosewater

(31,109 posts)
38. Love your responses and reasoning. I didnt anticipate any opposition to my idea.
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 07:38 PM
Nov 2018

I mean when I say it on FB or whatever, sure.

But...

Anyway, thanks.

Caliman73

(11,726 posts)
58. You are welcome.
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 08:03 PM
Nov 2018

I see nothing wrong when holding our candidates to the highest standards. That way, if they get past our scrutiny, then the Republicans can hurl all of the false crap at them that they would anyway, but there are no nasty surprises about oops, that illegal shell company sitting in Montego Bay that cut taxes by 10 million dollars.

xmas74

(29,673 posts)
67. If the OP lives in any number of states that allow ballot initiatives s/he would have the power.
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 08:16 PM
Nov 2018

They could prepare a legally sound petition, garner supporters to work fairs and other large groups to gather valid petitions, present the to the state's SoS and possibly have them on the ballot for a vote by the people. This has actually been mentioned as one of many initiatives for the 2020 ballot in Missouri, except it would be further back and would apply to all running for office with exceptions only pertaining to age.


Or the OP could become a voting member of their state's Dem party and present this as part of a state platform, garnering support.

Autumn

(45,006 posts)
71. That would work as long as it's for both parties and IMO only the higher offices.
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 08:30 PM
Nov 2018

But to apply it for Democrats only would be detrimental to our side. It should have been made a law for any high office candidate years ago to release their tax returns upon winning any nomination. But who could have ever expected something like Trump to happen.

dsc

(52,154 posts)
167. actually any state has the power to enforce that rule
Mon Nov 19, 2018, 08:36 AM
Nov 2018

We have the governing trifecta in about a dozen states any one of those or all of them could make it a precondition of being on the ballot to release x number of years of tax returns. While only Colorado and Nevada are likely to be in play all of them are necessities for the Democratic candidate to have any shot of winning.

Jersey Devil

(9,874 posts)
10. Depends on the office they are running for
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 06:01 PM
Nov 2018

In my opinion if you force somebody running for local town council to show the entire town 8 years of their tax returns you probably are going to have some offices with no candidates filing for the elections. For lower offices there are disclosure laws that require the names of all employers or sources of income, which is fine. But asking everyone, for every office, to give their tax returns is a bit much.

Jersey Devil

(9,874 posts)
13. certainly pres, and many others like senator, congress, etc
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 06:09 PM
Nov 2018

Governor, statewide offices, I agree should show returns. But anything lower than that it simply becomes more of an invasion of privacy. You can ask for sources of income and investments to prevent conflicts without asking someone exactly how much their income is.

Jersey Devil

(9,874 posts)
15. When I ran for local council in NJ
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 06:14 PM
Nov 2018

I had to disclose the names of any sources of income that I had. I was fine with that. But if I had to show my tax returns to run for an office that paid nothing I never would have run.

 

Small-Axe

(359 posts)
19. I'm down with your rule.
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 06:23 PM
Nov 2018

I'd add a second. No one runs for president as a D without 5 years of continuous party membership.

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
25. For people who believe Sanders has no chance at getting the nomination there sure are
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 06:50 PM
Nov 2018

a lot of posts about him. That tells me he has a very good chance.

Cha

(296,960 posts)
147. He thinks "BS has a chance" because
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 11:31 PM
Nov 2018

he's mentioned when there's a request for politicians to show years of Tax Returns..

You know.. like Hillary did .. and trump didn't.

Gothmog

(145,013 posts)
48. I fear that Putin will try to help sanders again so as to help trump
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 07:55 PM
Nov 2018

Remember that Putin did his best to help sanders last time Russia was helping sanders for a reason https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/02/17/indictment-russians-also-tried-help-bernie-sanders-jill-stein-presidential-campaigns/348051002/

WASHINGTON – It turns out Donald Trump wasn’t the only candidate the Russians allegedly tried to help during the 2016 presidential campaign.

A 37-page indictment resulting from special counsel Robert Mueller’s investigation shows that Russian nationals and businesses also worked to boost the campaigns of Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders and Green party nominee Jill Stein in an effort to damage Democrat Hillary Clinton.

The Russians “engaged in operations primarily intended to communicate derogatory information about Hillary Clinton, to denigrate other candidates such as Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio, and to support Bernie Sanders and then-candidate Donald Trump,” according to the indictment, which was issued Friday.

sanders success to some degree was due to Russia

sanders will not be the nominee of the party in 2020. There are a large number of democrats who have long memories and will not forgive or forget the role that sanders and russia played in election trump

Gothmog

(145,013 posts)
96. Read the USA story or the Mueller indictment
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 01:10 AM
Nov 2018

Putin and Russia flooded sites like JPR and other sanders sites with fake news to hurt Clinton https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bernie-sanders-fake-news-russia_us_58c34d97e4b0ed71826cdb36

Last June, John Mattes started noticing something coursing like a virus through the Facebook page he helped administer for Bernie Sanders fans in San Diego. People with no apparent ties to California were friending the page and sharing links from unfamiliar sites full of anti-Hillary Clinton propaganda.

The stories they posted weren’t the normal complaints he was used to seeing as the Vermont senator and the former secretary of state fought out the Democratic presidential primary. These stories alleged that Clinton had murdered her political opponents and used body doubles.

Mattes, 66, had been a television reporter and Senate investigator in previous lives. He put his expertise in unmasking fraudsters to work. At first, he suspected that the sites were created by the old Clinton haters from the ‘90s ― what Hillary Clinton had dubbed “the vast right-wing conspiracy.”

But when Mattes started tracking down the sites’ domain registrations, the trail led to Macedonia and Albania. In mid-September, he emailed a few of his private investigator friends with a list of the sites. “Very creepy and i do not think Koch brothers,” he wrote.

At one point, JPR had a half dozen threads on the greatest page of that website pushing the pizzagate story. After being laughed at on DU, the JPR site eventually ban pizzagate stories which were replaced by numerous other stories from Russia including some claiming that Clinton was dying

See also Russia Duped Bernie Fans via Facebook, San Diego Dems Toldhttps://timesofsandiego.com/politics/2017/03/23/russia-duped-bernie-fans-via-facebook-san-diego-dems-told/
Oliver Mitov was dispatched by the Kremlin to get Bernie Sanders fans to vote third-party in the November election, write in the Democratic primary loser for president — or not vote at all.

John Mattes speaks to San Diego Democrats for Equality, the the predominantly gay club in Hillcrest. Photo by Ken Stone
But investigative journalist John Mattes, describing how fake stories on Facebook helped defeat Hillary Clinton, isn’t sure who Mitov is.

“He may be a bot. He may be a person [or four]. He may be living in Macedonia, laughing,” Mattes told a rapt audience of 90 Thursday night in Hillcrest.
But Mitov’s thousands of posts — and similar ones from Albania and elsewhere — duped just enough of the 13 million Sanders supporters to hand the election to Donald Trump and prove Russia could hack American democracy, said the 66-year-old resident of Pacific Beach.
A major Sanders organizer in Southern California himself, Mattes admitted that “we were played.”

Again, Mueller has documented the support that Russia gave to Sanders. I trust Mueller on this.

Gothmog

(145,013 posts)
97. I also do not capitalize nader's name for much the same reason
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 01:12 AM
Nov 2018

sanders was used by Russia much the same way that Rove used nader. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-zuesse/ralph-nader-was-indispens_b_4235065.html


Furthermore, Karl Rove and the Republican Party knew this, and so they nurtured and crucially assisted Nader’s campaigns, both in 2000 and in 2004. On 27 October 2000, the AP’s Laura Meckler headlined “GOP Group To Air Pro-Nader TV Ads.” She opened: “Hoping to boost Ralph Nader in states where he is threatening to hurt Al Gore, a Republican group is launching TV ads featuring Nader attacking the vice president [Mr. Gore]. ... ‘Al Gore is suffering from election year delusion if he thinks his record on the environment is anything to be proud of,’ Nader says [in the commercial]. An announcer interjects: ‘What’s Al Gore’s real record?’ Nader says: ‘Eight years of principles betrayed and promises broken.’” Meckler’s report continued: “A spokeswoman for the Green Party nominee said that his campaign had no control over what other organizations do with Nader’s speeches.” Bush’s people - the group sponsoring this particular ad happened to be the Republican Leadership Council - knew exactly what they were doing, even though the liberal suckers who voted so carelessly for Ralph Nader obviously did not. Anyone who drives a car the way those liberal fools voted, faces charges of criminal negligence, at the very least. But this time, the entire nation crashed as a result; not merely a single car.....

On July 9th, the San Francisco Chronicle headlined “GOP Doners Funding Nader: Bush Supporters Give Independent’s Bid a Financial Lift,” and reported that the Nader campaign “has received a recent windfall of contributions from deep-pocketed Republicans with a history of big contributions to the party,” according to “an analysis of federal records.” Perhaps these contributors were Ambassador Egan’s other friends. Mr. Egan’s wife was now listed among the Nader contributors. Another listed was “Nijad Fares, a Houston businessman, who donated $200,000 to the Bush inaugural committee and who donated $2,000 each to the Nader effort and the Bush campaign this year.” Furthermore, Ari Berman reported 7 October 2004 at the Nation, under “Swift Boat Veterans for Nader,” that some major right-wing funders of a Republican smear campaign against Senator John Kerry’s Vietnam service contributed also $13,500 to the Nader campaign, and that “the Republican Party of Michigan gathered ninety percent of Nader’s signatures in their state” (90%!) to place Nader on the ballot so Bush could win that swing state’s 17 electoral votes. Clearly, the word had gone out to Bush’s big contributors: Help Ralphie boy! In fact, on 15 September 2005, John DiStaso of the Manchester Union-Leader, reported that, “A year ago, as the Presidential general election campaign raged in battleground state New Hampshire, consumer advocate Ralph Nader found his way onto the ballot, with the help of veteran Republican strategist David Carney and the Carney-owned Norway Hill Associates consulting firm.”

It was obvious, based upon the 2000 election results, that a dollar contributed to Nader in the 2004 contest would probably be a more effective way to achieve a Bush win against Kerry in the U.S. Presidential election than were perhaps even ten dollars contributed to Bush. This was a way of peeling crucial votes off from Bush’s real opponent - votes that otherwise would have gone to the Democrat. That’s why the smartest Republican money in the 2004 Presidential election was actually going to Nader, even more so than to Bush himself: these indirect Bush contributions provided by far the biggest bang for the right-wing buck.

If sanders wants to win back some respect, he needs to admit that was used by Russia

Gothmog

(145,013 posts)
117. I cope by working to protect the vote and elect real Democrats
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 10:51 AM
Nov 2018

Texas moved closer to turning blue. There are no gop judges left in Harris county and a new Democratic district attorney and county judge in my county

Texas will turn blue. This will be done by hard work

Response to Small-Axe (Reply #35)

 

Small-Axe

(359 posts)
79. He lost by 4 million votes to HRC.
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 08:49 PM
Nov 2018

But you already know that don’t you?

I don't wish to re-fight 2016. I do not want Bernie Sanders as our nominee.

Gothmog

(145,013 posts)
44. I would love to see sanders tax returns
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 07:50 PM
Nov 2018

sanders will not be able to get onto the ballot in several blue states without releasing either five or ten years of tax returns under ballot access laws.

If sanders runs, there will be some fun ads about sanders work to help elect trump and sanders stunts at the National Convention. Who do you think is more popular with Southern voters-John Lewis or sanders? sanders was effectively eliminated after super Tuesday last cycle and I suspect that sanders will not fare well in the south

Response to Gothmog (Reply #44)

Gothmog

(145,013 posts)
115. Democrats believe in full disclosure
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 10:41 AM
Nov 2018

A couple deep blue states are adopting ballot access laws requiring the disclosure of tax returns in order to get on the ballot. These ballot access laws are constitutional and serve an important function.

I also want to see sanders tax returns. There are questions about who was paid commissions on the TV ads ran by sanders. I personally doubt that sanders will run in 2020. If sanders runs, then he will have to provide his tax returns in order to get onto the ballot in some blue states

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
77. Your claim that the people here are
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 08:46 PM
Nov 2018

irrelevant and not at all related to the real world doesn’t really help anything.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
83. reality always helps
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 09:18 PM
Nov 2018

posts here, no matter how numerous, cannot support any increase in Bernie's chances.

Gothmog

(145,013 posts)
116. Sanders will not be the nominee of the Democratic Party
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 10:44 AM
Nov 2018

Too many real democrats have long memories

former9thward

(31,953 posts)
31. Well then Jerry Brown is not your friend.
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 07:19 PM
Nov 2018

And he is a liberal. And he does far more than anyone on internet discussion boards. He opposes such a rule and vetoed a bill mandated the rule in CA.

mcar

(42,283 posts)
87. You do realize it is possible to disagree with a politician
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 09:23 PM
Nov 2018

you may otherwise admire, don't you?

Also, I kind of don't think Eliot is friends with Jerry Brown. Just sayin'.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
91. :) Our new democracy reform bill does require presidential
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 09:53 PM
Nov 2018

candidates to disclose their tax returns. There are other transparency provisions, including campaign donors and special interest influence.

As you say, it's a liberal thing.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
104. Big legislative package in the house, to be introduced
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 05:56 AM
Nov 2018

in the 116th congress.

Our people in the House have been putting together a "democracy reform" task force and legislative package of many bills. It'll be a very big job. They've been planning and talking with groups working for legislative reform, like the End Citizens United group, for months. Actually years, and we were doing this in 2016, but just 2 years of Repub control have highlighted more things that need to be addressed to block what their institutionalization of corruption has developed into.

Short form: Campaign finance, voting, ethics, rules overhauls sections with various bills under each. Everything we want and need.

Some things probably can be done before 2020 with bipartisan agreement, most after we get the power to end the corruption the Republicans will fight tooth and nail to protect -- while they still control the senate. Ending Citizens United and similar laws to get money out of campaigns will require constitutional amendment, but that's in there too. Itm, we'll get taxpayer campaign finance up and running and require dark money donors be identified and other transparency.

This article is from early September, before the midterms, and there are a number written since, including one I saw with long lists of goals, but it's in Roll Call so more intelligent than some. If all goes as intended, Congressman Sarbanes will head up the task force, but no one's been waiting for that. The package is apparently pretty much ready to introduce in January.

https://www.rollcall.com/news/politics/government-overhaul-package-crucial-economic-agenda-hoyer-says




Gothmog

(145,013 posts)
42. Maryland and a couple of blue states have adopted ballot access laws
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 07:47 PM
Nov 2018

Before the filing deadlines, I expect that there will be six or seven blue states that will require the filing of five or ten years of tax returns in order to get onto the ballot.

I seriously doubt that sanders will run in 2020 due to these laws.

former9thward

(31,953 posts)
43. These laws will affect no one.
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 07:49 PM
Nov 2018

Jerry Brown vetoed a similar law in CA because he said it was unconstitutional. And they are. Rules can't be added to the Constitution. They will be struck down by courts as soon as someone affected files a suit.

Gothmog

(145,013 posts)
52. Candidates who won't disclose taxes shouldn't be on the ballot
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 07:58 PM
Nov 2018

Prof. Tribe disagrees with your analysis https://www.cnn.com/2017/04/14/opinions/state-laws-requiring-tax-return-disclosure-legal-tribe-painter-eisen/index.html

Our federal Constitution allows states to create ballot access requirements that ensure that the ballots for every office, including the office of presidential elector, are comprehensible and informative.

A line must of course be drawn between permissible ballot access laws and impermissible attempts to add qualifications to those specified in the federal Constitution. But our research and analysis lead us to conclude that tax return disclosure laws such as the one proposed in California resemble ballot access laws in structure, impact, and purpose much more closely than they resemble laws imposing additional qualifications for presidential office.

As a result, we believe these laws comport fully with the U.S. Constitution.

Unlike prohibited qualifications, these laws do not impose substantive requirements on candidates beyond those imposed by the Constitution itself; that is, these laws do not limit which candidates may run for office based on any particular information in their tax return. Thus, they do not create an insurmountable barrier in advance to any set of individuals otherwise qualified under Article II of our Constitution. Instead, these laws require federally qualified candidates to comply with a relatively minor process of tax disclosure. That is something competing candidates can and should readily do in order to allow voters to make more informed judgments about those contenders' characters or backgrounds.

Maryland has such a ballot access law in place now. New Jersey and Mass are soon to follow. California will probably adopt such a law after Brown is no longer in office.

I trust Prof. Tribe on this.

As a practical matter, trump may not be challenging these laws because if the Democrats retake the House, they will be getting his ta returns as one of the first items of business. House Democrats have done three or four votes to put GOP members on record as not wanting to get trump's tax returns and this may still be an issue in the midterms. This could mean that sanders would be the only candidate suing to invalidate these laws. That will not be a great position to take with Democratic voters

former9thward

(31,953 posts)
61. I have seen Tribe's arguments.
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 08:04 PM
Nov 2018

I have seen arguments on the other side and I think they will prevail.

Gothmog

(145,013 posts)
64. I trust Tribe here
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 08:10 PM
Nov 2018

Are you a member of the bar? Again, I trust Tribe far more on these types of issues. I have read some other legal analysis of these laws and I think that these laws are constitutional

I suspect that California will be adopting a new ballot access law once Brown is out of office. New Jersey and Mass will also be adopting such laws. It is difficult seeing any Democrat winning the nomination without running in these states

It may well be that trump will not challenge these laws since his tax returns will have been disclosed by the House long before the filing deadlines. That means that sanders may be the only candidate challenging that law which would not help sanders with many real Democrats.

former9thward

(31,953 posts)
66. Yes I am a member of the bar and do criminal defense.
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 08:16 PM
Nov 2018

That fact means nothing however since I am an anonymous internet poster like everyone here. Even if I was not anonymous it would just be the views of one person. We will see soon enough what the court's say.

 

Small-Axe

(359 posts)
55. How a party selects its nominee is not a Constitutional question.
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 08:00 PM
Nov 2018

I'd enjoy seeing Bernie Sanders file a lawsuit that claims he need not release his tax returns. LOL.

former9thward

(31,953 posts)
59. If a state restricts ballot access then it is a Constitutional question.
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 08:03 PM
Nov 2018

A party may pass a rule but there has been no attempt to do so by the Democratic National Committee.

former9thward

(31,953 posts)
94. The larger issue is privacy.
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 11:57 PM
Nov 2018

If you run for President you don't lose your Constitutional right to privacy. That is why Jerry Brown vetoed the CA law. He said that once that barrier is broken then there would be no limits to what candidates would be required to disclose. I agree with him.

Gothmog

(145,013 posts)
100. You give up a ton of privacy by running for office
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 01:18 AM
Nov 2018

I strongly disagree with your analysis. Luckily Governor Brown will be out of office soon and I suspect that California will join several other blue states with new versions of these laws

former9thward

(31,953 posts)
121. The right to privacy is a core of the Constitution.
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 11:42 AM
Nov 2018

No one gives up Constitutional rights to run for any office.

Gothmog

(145,013 posts)
127. You do understand that running for office is a personal choice?
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 12:14 PM
Nov 2018

No one is forcing anyone to run for office and one of the requirements for running is agreeing to comply with the requirements including filing with the FEC and applicable state regulatory agencies. If you want to run for office, one has to make a ton of disclosures including financial disclosure. All candidates prior to trump and sanders had no issues releasing tax returns.

former9thward

(31,953 posts)
132. That is the exact same argument anti-abortion people use.
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 02:59 PM
Nov 2018

They say that since, in most cases, having sex is a personal choice so the state should be free to impose restrictions on the consequences. I reject that argument. Tax returns being released is fairly recent in our history. Most candidates for President never released them including wealthy ones like Roosevelt and JFK. No one got excited when Jerry Brown refused to do so.

Gothmog

(145,013 posts)
133. That analogy is so bad that it is funny
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 03:20 PM
Nov 2018

Again, your claims about these laws being unconstitutional are wrong and you have provide no backing for your claims. That analogy was so bad that it made me laugh. Thank you.

I support the ballot access laws even though it is very likely trump's returns will be released without this laws. House Democrats will get trump's tax returns early next year and so trump may have no motivation to fight these laws. There is a decent chance that the only candidate who may be affected by these law will be sanders. I am amused that sanders supporters are comfortable with sanders not disclosing his tax returns. I think that we need to see sanders tax returns if he runs

BTW, in Vermont all candidates have to disclose their tax returns other than candidates running for federal office. https://legislature.vermont.gov/assets/Documents/2018/WorkGroups/Senate%20Government%20Operations/Ethics%20Commission/ETHICS%20COMMISSION~Madeline%20Motta~Financial%20Disclosure%20-%20Candidates~1-19-2018.pdf and https://www.pressherald.com/2018/09/20/releasing-tax-returns-an-issue-again-in-governors-races/

Only one state, Vermont, has a law that says candidates for governor and other statewide offices must release at least part of their tax returns. It’s in use for the first time this year after being passed in 2017, but there are no penalties for ignoring it – as did one candidate who appeared on the state’s primary ballot in August

Why should statewide candidates have to disclose their returns but not federal candidates in Vermont? I think that all candidates should release tax returns if they want to run

A candidate should not run for office without complying with all disclosure requirements including release of tax returns.

I agree with both Proferssors Tribe and Hasen on this issue.

Gothmog

(145,013 posts)
160. In Maryland and other states with ballot access laws, you cannot get onto the ballot
Sun Nov 18, 2018, 04:06 PM
Nov 2018

That will be fairly effective remedy and should be added to more states laws.

I note that most of the candidates who refused to provide tas retruns lost.

In 2020, several key blue states will have ballot access laws. sanders cannot count on trump suing to invalidate these laws in that trump's tax returns will have been released by the House long before the filing deadlines. It will be a very large negative if a Democratic candidate sued to invalide one of these laws.

George II

(67,782 posts)
136. I don't understand why there is such resistance to requiring candidates to release tax returns...
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 04:13 PM
Nov 2018

The Federal government requires that Federal office holders, employees, and candidates file financial disclosures every year. There isn't a concern about privacy.

https://www.opensecrets.org/personal-finances/disclosure

Refusal by a candidate to release tax returns only makes one wonder if he/she has something to hide.

Gothmog

(145,013 posts)
137. Agreed
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 05:14 PM
Nov 2018

Someone is worried about these laws

I do not expect sanders to run in 2020. If sanders does run. I want to see all of his tax returns

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
141. Um... since the early 70's, most Potus candidates have released them.
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 08:58 PM
Nov 2018

Now you're using the same argument racist Republicans use when they say that Democrats started the KKK, so that means we are the "party of the KKK" and not them.... because what was going on decades and decades ago justifies something in the present.

Please. Why are you so opposed to basic vetting of a candidate? DT's personal finances are probably what brings him down - and you think that the GOP won't do the very same thing to us if we give them a candidate that has tainted personal finances?

Who do you think we are missing out on? What ethical candidate would not be transparent with their finances?

Anyone in mind?









 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
154. Did he win the Dem POTUS nomination? Any of the times he ran?
Sun Nov 18, 2018, 09:11 AM
Nov 2018

Last edited Sun Nov 18, 2018, 09:59 AM - Edit history (1)

Have modern Democrats ever been drawn to a POTUS nominee who would not be transparent with their finances?

Is Brown the person you have in mind to run for POTUS in 2020 then?

Do you think that's why he refused to support a bill to require any POTUS candidate who wanted to get on the ballot in CA to release their tax returns?

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
159. If anyone at all, it needs to be POTUS.
Sun Nov 18, 2018, 03:34 PM
Nov 2018

I think you understand the difference between POTUS and a governor, so the defensiveness is rather unneccessary.

I take it then that you are pulling for Brown to run for 2020.

Again - do you think that is a reason that he's refusing to require anyone in 2020, including Trump, to release tax returns as a condition of being on the ballot in CA?

And why do you react so defensively and angrily at suggesting that candidates be required to do something that has been the standard for POTUS candidates since the 70's? What reasons would a POTUS candidate have not to release them?

You want the Dems to lower their standards to Trump? Why on earth would we want or need to?

former9thward

(31,953 posts)
162. Yes, I would like to see Brown run.
Sun Nov 18, 2018, 04:09 PM
Nov 2018

But he is way too old. His time has come and gone. I supported him when he was running against Bill Clinton. I don't understand the fascination with tax returns. They don't show what people think they show. Maybe people who are so in favor of this don't even do their own taxes and just sign what an accountant gives them without looking at the return. So they don't actually know what information is and is not on them.

Presidential candidates already release a lot of financial information to the Federal Election Commission. I remember people saying Trump was going to drop out in 2015 rather than release his. He didn't drop out and submitted almost 1000 pages of information containing the companies he was associated with to the FEC (which is available to the public). I wonder if anyone even looked at it.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
164. "I don't understand the fascination with tax returns."
Sun Nov 18, 2018, 04:29 PM
Nov 2018

Clearly not.

As a matter of fact, yes, "someone" looked at the information he released to the FEC. You really thought no one would? Because you weren't interested?

https://www.cnbc.com/2015/07/22/inside-trumps-finances-read-the-full-fec-report.html

Here's a great resource on why POTUS tax returns are very important, even if they aren't of interest to you:

https://sunlightfoundation.com/2016/07/27/why-is-the-tax-return-a-big-deal-and-what-information-can-you-learn-from-it/

From tax returns we learn:

Yearly income of the candidate
How much the candidate paid in taxes and the tax rate
What deductions and tax credits claimed
Real estate taxes and abatements
Investments
How much the candidate gave to charity (which could shed light on their values and priorities)
To whom the candidate owes money
Who are the candidates in business with and the financial positions of those companies (whether they have had gains or losses)
May indicate if money is being held offshore
On the financial disclosure forms:


Outside Income
Gifts
Assets/property owned
Specific investments/trusts
Possible conflicts of interest
Certain transactions/agreements made with businesses and people
Positions held at different companies outside of the government
Liabilities


It’s also important to remember that unlike Congress, presidents are exempt from conflict-of-interest laws.

This makes disclosure of income tax returns especially important to shed light on areas of possible conflicts of interest. Yearly salaries are often reported in the news but tax returns reveal so much more about the character of the candidate. Their debts give us a broader sense of the state of their finances, and perhaps more importantly an idea to whom they could feel beholden. We learn how much (or little) they paid in taxes, and whether they utilized loopholes in tax law to avoid paying those taxes. It sheds light on whether they conducted activity that they have criticized on the campaign trail.

Learning about candidates businesses, business partners and the state of those activities can help understand how their judgment might be affected by their financial transactions and debts.

We learn their values and priorities from learning which charities they support.

There is a reason why banks use tax returns when evaluating mortgages: the forms offer a snapshot of a person’s financial position and their financial decision making processes. Financial disclosure forms simply don’t offer a complete picture. The two documents together may give voters a better sense of how a candidate makes financial decisions. Voters should be able to evaluate the information contained in these documents together before deciding who to vote for in November.


If a POTUS candidate won't even turn over the documents required for a mortgage, you have to wonder what they are hiding.

former9thward

(31,953 posts)
165. So what did we learn about Trump from the FEC filings?
Sun Nov 18, 2018, 04:55 PM
Nov 2018

That we didn't know before? BTW tax returns don't necessarily show who you owe money to. I will restate I believe people who say such things don't do their own taxes.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
166. Goalposts moved.
Mon Nov 19, 2018, 08:21 AM
Nov 2018

Last edited Mon Nov 19, 2018, 09:12 AM - Edit history (3)

Got it.

I see you didn't bother to read the resources I provided before dismissing them.

And yes, loans do appear, especially if one is writing off the interest, because that's how you explain to the IRS where the money for the boat or the third home came from.

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1098.pdf

Especially if a loan is forgiven.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2013/12/03/sure-loans-arent-income-convincing-irs-it-was-a-loan-priceless/

If, however, we could get our hands on the return for the year of sale; well, that could be interesting. The Schedule D would show the $100 million sales price, as well as Trump's "basis" in the home, which would be comprised of the $40 million purchase price plus any improvements. If the total basis remained anywhere close to $40 million -- or anything less than $100 million, really, given the real estate market in Florida when the property was sold in 2009 -- it would definitely raise questions about why a Russian investor would be willing to pay $100 million for property that was purchased only four short years prior for $40 million during a time of declining values.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/anthonynitti/2017/03/15/president-trumps-tax-returns-what-can-they-really-tell-us/#294f96e6530f

Looking forward to your next evasion of the topic at hand, which is why you think that it's wrong to require financial transparency from a candidate after 2016, at least.

Gothmog

(145,013 posts)
161. That is not what was posted above
Sun Nov 18, 2018, 04:08 PM
Nov 2018

Ballot access laws are constitutional and will play a role in 2020.

George II

(67,782 posts)
113. The Democratic Party can institute a rule requiring a release of tax returns...
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 10:29 AM
Nov 2018

...in order to be a Democratic candidate. As long as the rule doesn't discriminate a "private" organization/club can require anything it wants.

George II

(67,782 posts)
122. The individual state Democratic Parties make their rules. That's why some states have primaries...
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 11:43 AM
Nov 2018

...and others have caucuses.

A political party is somewhat like a private club (in fact in NYC the local Democratic committees are called "clubs" ), they can make whatever rules they want as long as they're not discriminatory.

former9thward

(31,953 posts)
145. No they don't
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 11:19 PM
Nov 2018

The DNC makes the rules on who can run for the Democratic nomination for president. The state parties have no power to determine WHO has ballot access. They have the power to determine HOW the ballot is accessed.

126. The DNC isn't stupid enough to adopt such a rule. What a rule like this is essentially saying is -
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 12:14 PM
Nov 2018

"We can't trust those moronic 'just plain folks' in the general electorate to make an informed decision about this matter, so their intellectual betters are just going to have to take that decision away from them." I don't know - that doesn't sound like a very winning message to me.

For the record, I believe a presidential candidate SHOULD release his tax returns - his refusal to do so would be a definite red flag to me and a serious impediment for my support - BUT - I want to be able to make that decision - whether I will vote for him or not - on MY OWN - I don't want elites in Washington making that decision FOR ME.

Gothmog

(145,013 posts)
101. trump's returns will be released by the House early next year
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 01:21 AM
Nov 2018

Once these returns are out, trump will have less motivation to challenge these laws. Prof. Hasen thinks that trump will skip blue states with these laws because he will not win these states anyway https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/03/donald-trump-tax-returns-release-214950

And it is possible that state laws requiring candidates disclose their tax returns would not matter much. After all, only solidly Democratic states, such as California and Hawaii, are likely to enact such laws. So maybe rather than release his returns to get on the ballot, Trump will just take a pass on being on the ballot in those states. (There is not a single state which Trump won and which has a Democratic-controlled state legislature.)

It would be sad if sanders is the candidate who challenges these laws. I can see trump not challenging these laws but sanders filing complaints.

Gothmog

(145,013 posts)
99. Politics How States Could Force Trump to Release His Tax Returns
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 01:16 AM
Nov 2018

I volunteer a great deal of time on voter protection issues and have been in war rooms the last five or so elections. Prof. Hasen has a good blog on election law and he believes that these laws are constitutional. https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/03/donald-trump-tax-returns-release-214950


The answer lies in another part of Article II—the part that received some important attention in Bush v. Gore, the Supreme Court decision that Democrats love to hate. Famously, the 2000 case between Republican nominee George W. Bush and Democratic nominee Al Gore effectively handed the election to Bush when it ended the Florida recount.

Article II provides that the “state legislature” “may direct” “the manner” for choosing presidential electors. In Bush v. Gore, the Court stated that this Article II power given to state legislatures was “plenary,” meaning that the states have a broad power when it comes to presidential elections. Indeed, the Court wrote that even though state legislators have given each state’s voters the right to vote for presidential electors, at any time a state legislature can “take back the power” to appoint electors. In other words, if the California or Texas state legislature wanted to directly choose the state’s presidential electors in 2020, the state could do so. As Dean Vik Amar notes, the Constitution does not necessarily include a right of Americans to vote for president at all (and American citizens in U.S. territories do not have this right).

The logic then goes like this: If a state legislature can take back from the voters the right to vote at all for president, it may be able to use ballot-access laws to limit the candidate choices presented to voters. And doing so would not impinge on the Qualifications Clause in Article II because Congress ultimately counts the Electoral College votes and can police that Clause. If a state legislature, for example, chose electors supporting a candidate under the age of 35, the U.S. House of Representatives, which counts the Electoral College votes, could disregard those votes after deeming the underage candidate unqualified.

Prof. Hasen has some concerns about the wisdom of these laws and possible GOP retaliation if blue states adopt these laws. I also believe that these laws are valid

former9thward

(31,953 posts)
120. The U.S. Constitution.
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 11:39 AM
Nov 2018

More than half of the states in the country considered similar legislation this year, according to an Assembly analysis of the bill. The Legislature’s own lawyers said the bill is legally questionable and would likely violate the qualifications clause of the U.S. Constitution. Legislative committees predicted the issue will likely end up in court.

Brown agreed the measure “may not be constitutional,” and said it could lead to states requiring a long list of items of potential candidates. “What would be next? Five years of health records? A certified birth certificate? High school report cards? And will these requirements vary depending on which political party is in power?”

https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article179062716.html

Note; Jerry Brown refused to release his tax returns during his last two elections for governor.

George II

(67,782 posts)
88. There are two things involved, State laws and Party rules. Have those states...
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 09:28 PM
Nov 2018

...adopted laws or is it that the Democratic Party in those states adopted rule changes?

From what I can see it could be acceptable if either take place. States are free to establish their own laws for candidates to be on the ballot. Even so, the Democratic Party can establish requirements for their candidates to be on the ballot on their line. If the candidate doesn't comply with their requirements, they are free to run on another line (republican, working family, unaffiliated, etc.)

 

Tavarious Jackson

(1,595 posts)
36. This ensures democrats will not ever encounter a TRUMP of our own.
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 07:31 PM
Nov 2018

If candidates have an issue with this rule than they will answer to the American people calling them out.

Eliot Rosewater

(31,109 posts)
37. I keep saying what if this happened under Obama or Hillary...
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 07:36 PM
Nov 2018

the this could be any of over 3000 lies, acts of obstruction of justice, acts of treason or simply acts beyond reason and sense.

Answer is they would almost burn down the country.

My simple rule would make the right even bigger hypocrites.

 

Tavarious Jackson

(1,595 posts)
47. I absolutely agree.
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 07:54 PM
Nov 2018

There is so much to learn from tax returns for example, do they live by what they campaign for? Do they give to charity? Do they have any conflicts of interest? I mean, I do not see why a candidate would not want to disclose who they are to the American people.

Eliot Rosewater

(31,109 posts)
54. And I could forgive someone who
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 07:59 PM
Nov 2018

is not all that charitable, for instance.

I could forgive someone who invested in questionable stuff as long as they paid their taxes and didnt try and hide it.

I could forgive a lot, but I cant forgive what I dont know about, that is for sure.

My rule could rule OUT people I really like, but rules are rules.
I watched




On Kimmel last night and all I could think of was damn. We sure had something there, didnt we. Amazing.

BTW this article talks about her book and that she snuck out of WH to celebrate gay marriage ruling.

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/michelle-obama-reveals-she-snuck-out-white-house-celebrate-gay-n937186


NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
125. Yes... complete returns are essential. NO FAKE OR LAME EXCUSES!
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 12:13 PM
Nov 2018
or half of one that is two years old.
Yes... complete returns are essential. NO FAKE OR LAME EXCUSES!

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
53. I think that's a great new rule!
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 07:59 PM
Nov 2018
That is my new rule.
I think that's a great new rule! It will be interesting to see who opposes your suggestion.

Eliot Rosewater

(31,109 posts)
56. I thought so, in fact I thought it was like when I say
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 08:01 PM
Nov 2018

I support Nancy, that it would get 100% approval.

jb5150

(1,178 posts)
68. If I ran for local office, and showed
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 08:26 PM
Nov 2018

my last 8 years of taxes .. I would probably win easily because everyone would feel sorry for me.

MrsCoffee

(5,801 posts)
80. Wow this thread was enlightening.
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 08:51 PM
Nov 2018

I've been wondering how far some folks would go to support their candidate.

Guess I'll have to keep wondering, because apparently they have no problem giving up transparency.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
142. People identify with a political group, accept the group's leader,
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 09:24 PM
Nov 2018

then adopt the leader's views and goals (!!!) and, for the more hard-core followers, give unquestioning loyalty.

Apparently we almost all follow this shocking pattern to some degree, but some, like the trumpsters, to a strong degree. And we keep seeing the proof again and again. As with Sanders' tax returns and willingness to try to have the popular vote set aside if it doesn't favor him.

Seems to me we could keep ourselves from getting carried away by this horrible flaw by adopting even one little rule: Applying the same standard to all candidates. If Trump and Hillary are expected to make returns public, Sanders should also. Simple enough for anyone to understand. Of course just adhering to that would get people kicked out of certain forums pronto by angry loyalists.

PJMcK

(22,016 posts)
103. Agree with your principle but who keeps 8 years of documents?
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 04:55 AM
Nov 2018

After seven, they're shredded. If the IRS won't go further back than that, why should I expect anyone else to?

Except for that eight year, I agree whole-heartedly.

drray23

(7,626 posts)
129. many do. i am one of them.
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 12:26 PM
Nov 2018

All my returns are stored in a file cabinet in my office at home. Even if not legally required to do so, I keep them. For example, if there ever is a need to justify my income over the years for purpose of retiirement or social securiity or if i ever run for office.

PJMcK

(22,016 posts)
131. How many years do you keep?
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 02:07 PM
Nov 2018

For me, it's a lot of paper!

In addition to my own documents, I'm an executor of an estate and the administrator for several privately-owned music companies. About 10 years ago, I had run out of space for all of the documents. Not only my accountant and lawyer, but every one of those representing the third parties, agreed that I could keep what the IRS requires and destroy anything earlier. So far, so good. It requires a yearly maintenance, of course.

By the way, the Social Security office already has your entire earnings history. A couple of years ago, due to a coroner's inversion of two digits in the deceased's Social Security Number, I was declared dead! In the course of correcting the mistake, the excellent SS representative told me that she could tell me how much I made every year since I began filing. Not really Big Brother, of course, but that's an amazingly large database.

Regardless, if you do run for office, let me know and I'll make a contribution to your campaign.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
139. Any candidate who refuses even this basic vetting is a time bomb.
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 08:35 PM
Nov 2018

They are a bad risk. If we don't vet them, the GOP most certainly will.


 

JCanete

(5,272 posts)
149. I'm fine with weighing it among every other aspect of a candidate. All things being equal, I'll take
Sun Nov 18, 2018, 03:55 AM
Nov 2018

the candidate who has released his or her tax returns...and I'll go so far as to say this would factor more heavily than some other qualifications, though certainly less than certain others others.

But if I put up all kinds of hard-line deal breakers across the spectrum of my most important issues, I don't think anybody would make the cut.

That said, I'm fine with the DNC and us as its body of democratic voters, establishing a criterion that requires candidates to divulge their tax returns in order to be eligible to run.

Gothmog

(145,013 posts)
163. Maryland and other blue states will have ballot access laws
Sun Nov 18, 2018, 04:10 PM
Nov 2018

To get onto the ballot in these states, a candidate will have to release their tax returns.

I really would love to see sanders full tax returns but I doubt that he will run and comply with these laws

jmowreader

(50,541 posts)
150. Business records too
Sun Nov 18, 2018, 04:05 AM
Nov 2018

With the person who created this need for tax returns, the really juicy stuff is going to be found in that set of books he doesn't show the government. It won't be in his tax returns; his accountants are better than that.

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