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pnwmom

(108,977 posts)
Wed Nov 21, 2018, 01:24 AM Nov 2018

I think Female Genital Mutilation meets the definition of a hate crime.

Last edited Wed Nov 21, 2018, 02:33 AM - Edit history (1)

A judge has just overturned the Federal law prohibiting it (including the forms that remove the entire clitoris and the inner labia, and then sews up the vulva, with one tiny opening left for the passage of fluids. In order to have sex, a woman must have more surgery to open her up again.) The judge said the procedure was a state matter that couldn't be addressed in federal law because it didn't involve interstate commerce.

I think the procedure qualifies as a hate crime. It's an assault against vulnerable people, done for the purpose of permanently damaging or eliminating their sexual response, and is directed at the female gender. It has no medical benefits and involves serious medical risks.

I wonder if it could be prosecuted under the Matthew Shephard Act.

https://www.justice.gov/crt/hate-crimes-prosecutions

The Department of Justice aggressively prosecutes hate crimes, which include acts of physical harm and specific criminal threats motivated by animus based on race, color, national origin, religion, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, or disability.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Shepard_and_James_Byrd_Jr._Hate_Crimes_Prevention_Act

The Matthew Shepard and James Byrd Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act, also known as the Matthew Shepard Act, is an American Act of Congress, passed on October 22, 2009,[1] and signed into law by President Barack Obama on October 28, 2009,[2] as a rider to the National Defense Authorization Act for 2010 (H.R. 2647). Conceived as a response to the murders of Matthew Shepard and James Byrd Jr., both in 1998, the measure expands the 1969 United States federal hate-crime law to include crimes motivated by a victim's actual or perceived gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, or disability.[3]

The bill also:

Removes, in the case of hate crimes related to the race, color, religion, or national origin of the victim, the prerequisite that the victim be engaging in a federally protected activity, like voting or going to school;
Gives federal authorities greater ability to engage in hate crimes investigations that local authorities choose not to pursue;
Provides $5 million per year in funding for fiscal years 2010 through 2012 to help state and local agencies pay for investigating and prosecuting hate crimes;
Requires the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) to track statistics on hate crimes based on gender and gender identity (statistics for the other groups were already tracked).

21 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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I think Female Genital Mutilation meets the definition of a hate crime. (Original Post) pnwmom Nov 2018 OP
The problem with the case wasn't that FGM isn't or shouldn't be a crime, The Velveteen Ocelot Nov 2018 #1
Where is more info about the hate crime statute only being prosecuted pnwmom Nov 2018 #2
Here, in 18 U.S. Code sec. 249. The Velveteen Ocelot Nov 2018 #3
What about the Matthew Shephard Act? pnwmom Nov 2018 #5
Sorry, no idea. The Velveteen Ocelot Nov 2018 #6
I just added some info about the Matthew Shephard act, in case you're curious. pnwmom Nov 2018 #7
Thanks - I'll bookmark it to read later, too tired to think more tonight! The Velveteen Ocelot Nov 2018 #8
You already posted it jberryhill Nov 2018 #13
Thanks! When I posted the statute last night The Velveteen Ocelot Nov 2018 #20
That IS the Matthew Shepard Act jberryhill Nov 2018 #14
Agreed Gothmog Nov 2018 #4
It's probably originates from people who could never drive a woman to orgasm in the first place. TheBlackAdder Nov 2018 #9
It's about ownership. A HERETIC I AM Nov 2018 #19
I don't think it can. Quackers Nov 2018 #10
Any genital mutilation. Lunabell Nov 2018 #11
Female genital mutilation is not circumcision and has zero medical benefits. pnwmom Nov 2018 #12
This is a religious procedure? How many are done in our country? pwb Nov 2018 #15
It's actually an old cultural practice that has been wrapped up in "religious" garb jberryhill Nov 2018 #16
I would fight it under child abuse laws. pwb Nov 2018 #17
Those aren't federal laws jberryhill Nov 2018 #18
It's done by mothers and relatives to their daughters in other countries, ismnotwasm Nov 2018 #21

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,681 posts)
1. The problem with the case wasn't that FGM isn't or shouldn't be a crime,
Wed Nov 21, 2018, 01:51 AM
Nov 2018

it's that the court found that a federal statute outlawing it violates the Commerce Clause of the Constitution. That is, they concluded it has no significant effect on interstate commerce and for that reason would have to be the subject of state law, not federal law. The case prompted a new law in Michigan criminalizing FGM. Even the federal hate crime statute requires the crime to be committed in interstate commerce or using an instrumentality of interstate commerce. If there is no relation with interstate commerce the crime would have to be prosecuted under state law.

pnwmom

(108,977 posts)
2. Where is more info about the hate crime statute only being prosecuted
Wed Nov 21, 2018, 01:56 AM
Nov 2018

in connection with interstate commerce?

I thought it had to do with civil rights, which are protected under Federal law.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,681 posts)
3. Here, in 18 U.S. Code sec. 249.
Wed Nov 21, 2018, 02:00 AM
Nov 2018
(B)Circumstances described.—For purposes of subparagraph (A), the circumstances described in this subparagraph are that—
(i) the conduct described in subparagraph (A) occurs during the course of, or as the result of, the travel of the defendant or the victim—
(I) across a State line or national border; or
(II) using a channel, facility, or instrumentality of interstate or foreign commerce;
(ii) the defendant uses a channel, facility, or instrumentality of interstate or foreign commerce in connection with the conduct described in subparagraph (A);
(iii) in connection with the conduct described in subparagraph (A), the defendant employs a firearm, dangerous weapon, explosive or incendiary device, or other weapon that has traveled in interstate or foreign commerce; or
(iv) the conduct described in subparagraph (A)—
(I) interferes with commercial or other economic activity in which the victim is engaged at the time of the conduct; or
(II) otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce.
(3)Offenses occurring in the special maritime or territorial jurisdiction of the united states.—
Whoever, within the special maritime or territorial jurisdiction of the United States, engages in conduct described in paragraph (1) or in paragraph (2)(A) (without regard to whether that conduct occurred in a circumstance described in paragraph (2)(B)) shall be subject to the same penalties as prescribed in those paragraphs.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/249

pnwmom

(108,977 posts)
5. What about the Matthew Shephard Act?
Wed Nov 21, 2018, 02:03 AM
Nov 2018
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Shepard_and_James_Byrd_Jr._Hate_Crimes_Prevention_Act

The Matthew Shepard and James Byrd Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act, also known as the Matthew Shepard Act, is an American Act of Congress, passed on October 22, 2009,[1] and signed into law by President Barack Obama on October 28, 2009,[2] as a rider to the National Defense Authorization Act for 2010 (H.R. 2647). Conceived as a response to the murders of Matthew Shepard and James Byrd Jr., both in 1998, the measure expands the 1969 United States federal hate-crime law to include crimes motivated by a victim's actual or perceived gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, or disability.[3]

The bill also:

Removes, in the case of hate crimes related to the race, color, religion, or national origin of the victim, the prerequisite that the victim be engaging in a federally protected activity, like voting or going to school;
Gives federal authorities greater ability to engage in hate crimes investigations that local authorities choose not to pursue;
Provides $5 million per year in funding for fiscal years 2010 through 2012 to help state and local agencies pay for investigating and prosecuting hate crimes;
Requires the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) to track statistics on hate crimes based on gender and gender identity (statistics for the other groups were already tracked).
 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
13. You already posted it
Wed Nov 21, 2018, 07:19 AM
Nov 2018

Pnwmom does not understand that the Matthew Shepard Act was an amendment to 18 usc 249 - the statute you already posted.

I'll spare you the research here.... note the bottom of the link you posted:

(Added and amended Pub. L. 111–84, div. E, §§ 4707(a), 4711, Oct. 28, 2009, 123 Stat. 2838, 2842.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Defense_Authorization_Act_for_Fiscal_Year_2010

The National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2010 (H.R. 2647, Pub.L. 111–84, 123 Stat. 2190.)...

...

Division E

Matthew Shepard and James Byrd, Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act


The actually interesting part, as applied to the federal FGM law, is that it was an implementation act of a relevant treaty. The principle argument was "Congress had the power because the US signed this treaty". The problem is that the treaty itself recognizes that any implementing legislation would have to be done by the relevant agency within a signatory country, and that this was recognized at the time to be US states and not the federal government.

One of the more troubling large-scale trends in law generally, while not applicable in this instance of course, is a kind of agreement among sovereigns to put things into treaties which they can't do by national legislation in their own countries, and then say, "Oh, we had to do this because of the treaty." If you have a lot of money and influence in at least two countries, that can be a more efficient route toward getting what you want than trying to get national legislation passed piecemeal. So, on the general point of "what are the limits to which a treaty obligation can over-ride a Constitutional principle" the decision was interesting to me.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,681 posts)
20. Thanks! When I posted the statute last night
Wed Nov 21, 2018, 12:30 PM
Nov 2018

I was too tired to look at the legislative history; I just used that language to point out that a hate crime, like any other crime, can't be prosecuted under federal law unless it has some relationship to interstate commerce or it violates the Commerce Clause. The problem with the FGM statute is that it didn't contain any language limiting its scope to crimes committed in or affecting interstate commerce (and maybe it could be amended to do so, like sec. 249). I'm seeing some unfair slagging of the judge who dismissed the case, apparently under the assumption that he thinks FGM is somehow acceptable, but that's not what happened. It's not that he was OK with the crime; it's that he understood that a crime can't be "federalized" without some connection to interstate commerce or some other specified federal interest. Most crimes are, and have to be, based on state law. Thanks for the nice explanation of this in your other post.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
14. That IS the Matthew Shepard Act
Wed Nov 21, 2018, 07:21 AM
Nov 2018

Last edited Wed Nov 21, 2018, 08:41 AM - Edit history (2)

The post to which you are asking that question IS the relevant section of the Matthew Shepard Act.

A Wikipedia summary is not a reliable guide to what any law specifically requires.

When Congress passes laws, they are often given descriptive names of some kind. A law that has been passed by Congress and signed by the president is called a "public law". Each public law is given a number of the form XXX-YYY where "XXX" is the number of the Congress that passed it, and "YYY" is the sequential number of the law.

When a public law adds or amends a particular statute of the US Code, then most compendia of the US Code will include a helpful notation which tells you the last time that section was added or amended.

Looking at the bottom of Velveteen's link to 18 USC 249 (Section 249 of Title 18 of the US Code), you will see this:

(Added and amended Pub. L. 111–84, div. E, §§ 4707(a), 4711, Oct. 28, 2009, 123 Stat. 2838, 2842.)

What that tells you is that 18 USC 249 was added and amended by Public Law 111-84, i.e. the 84th law passed by the 111th Congress. In fact, it tells you that it was division E of that law.

Public Law 111-84 was the National Defense Re-Authorization Act, into which a bunch of other acts were rolled into a single package. The entirety of Pub. L. 111-84 is here:

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-111publ84/html/PLAW-111publ84.htm

(a) Divisions.--This Act is organized into five divisions as
follows:
(1) Division A--Department of Defense Authorizations.
(2) Division B--Military Construction Authorizations.
(3) Division C--Department of Energy National Security
Authorizations and Other Authorizations.
(4) Division D--Funding tables.
(5) Division E--Matthew Shepard and James Byrd, Jr. Hate
Crimes Prevention Act


So, what you are looking at, and which Velveteen Ocelot posted is the relevant part of the Matthew Shepard Act, and it says so right on the page, once you know how to decode the notation, which actually packs a wealth of information.

While it did loosen up the ambit of federal hate crimes, there still needs to be a connection to interstate travel or interstate commerce. If you do bother to scroll down to the actual Act itself, you'll find that Congress will often put in a set of "findings" - statements which answer the question "why is this appropriate within the limited legislative power of Congress?".

In recent decades, Congress has passed a variety of what are essentially feel-good laws on topics which people get excited about, because people really don't get that the federal government doesn't have the ability to criminalize anything that people might think is bad, for whatever reason. So, for example, if people get excited about some atrocious thing, like the odious practice of flaculationism, someone will say "Hey, there's no federal law against it." Not wanting to be soft on flaculationism, Congress will pass a law against it.

The problem is that if flaculationism is not inherently an activity that affects interstate commerce or any of the other handful of things about which Congress can actually legislate (in addition to whatever additional implied legislative power is related to doing that handful of things recited in Article I), then what they will typically do is to add a qualifier along the lines of "involving interstate travel or an instrumentality of interstate commerce" somewhere in there.

After this, Congress will triumphantly announce that they've outlawed flaculationism. Never mind that in order to actually fall under that law, you have to do it on an Amtrak train, and that flaculators in the privacy of their own homes will not be reachable under it.

This is the precise reason why a piece of the Violence Against Women Act was struck down:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_Against_Women_Act

In the 2000 Supreme Court case United States v. Morrison, a sharply divided Court struck down the VAWA provision allowing women the right to sue their attackers in federal court. By a 5–4 majority, the Court overturned the provision as exceeding the federal government's powers under the Commerce Clause.


Federal laws against "bad stuff people do" are always subject to this sort of challenge when the "bad stuff" doesn't closely relate to one of the enumerated powers of Congress, and some kind of long chain of explanation is needed to tie the statute to one of those powers. Obviously, the specific outcome on any particular one is debatable (as the 5-4 decision indicates), but the overall point is that these sorts of crimes - involving what is called the "police power" over physical crimes against a person - are generally considered to be the province of state criminal law, and not federal criminal law, so there is always going to be this kind of challenge. That is particularly true where, as here, the federal criminal law is being taken out for its "first spin" so to speak.

And that's another thing to note about federal "feel good" legislation. The federal FGM law has been around since 1996. This case in Michigan is actually the FIRST TIME any federal prosecutor has attempted to charge anyone under it. So, it's a given that there will be a Constitutional challenge to it, because despite how long it has been on the books, it has never actually resulted in the prosecution of anyone. I would venture to guess there is a reason for that, since it's not as if the question of "can Congress do that?" is an obscure or impertinent question to ask when you see a federal law that criminalizes something that does not have any obvious connection to interstate commerce or federal activities.

Might it be reversed on appeal? Sure. But if one's job is to put people behind bars for stuff, then one tends to shy away from using laws which "may" survive an appeal. A federal prosecutor has finite resources.

Gothmog

(145,168 posts)
4. Agreed
Wed Nov 21, 2018, 02:00 AM
Nov 2018

This is a disgusting practice that needs to be outlawed. If the Federal govt. cannot restrict this practice, then the states need to

I have not read the opinion of the judge who struck down the federal law but I have a feeling that I will disagree with the reasoning

TheBlackAdder

(28,188 posts)
9. It's probably originates from people who could never drive a woman to orgasm in the first place.
Wed Nov 21, 2018, 03:35 AM
Nov 2018

.


Perverse and misplaced retribution stemming from frustration over a gross inadequacy in pleasure-giving.




There are those who use culture, religion, etc. as a premise, but is that the real reason?

As John Oliver would say, "Is that the real reason? ... ... Really? ... ... ... Really?"


And, yes, it is a hate crime. Sexual inadequacy turns to frustration and then into a sour grapes inspired hate.


Note: While this post is partially based on sarcasm, as pleasuring a partner is a goal, there is probably some truth in it. The male ego suffers greatly when a man cannot deliver. Even sociopaths need that affirmation of their sexual prowess.

I wonder if that Judge ever delivered the goods?


.

A HERETIC I AM

(24,367 posts)
19. It's about ownership.
Wed Nov 21, 2018, 08:38 AM
Nov 2018

In the so called "sacred texts" of all 3 of the faiths of the God Of Abraham, women are property.

I am convinced these customs stem from the realization on the part of men long ago, that a woman is waaay more powerful than men are. A woman's orgasm is the most powerful force in the universe, and I mean that sincerely. Women can orgasm repeatedly virtually for hours. Men can not. FGM is done STRICTLY to make the sex act less pleasurable for a woman, if not downright painful.

Now why would a man want to do that to a woman? Because he doesn't want her going elsewhere looking for that orgasm. Women are property in these cultures and one can do what one wishes with his own property.

Just one more item in a long list of why I came to realize religion was bullshit and god is a mythical construct.

And BTW< to back up my point about women being more powerful, as well as simply stronger than men where and when it counts?

Look at every story in history where a group was in serious trouble. It is A L W A Y S the women that were the key to surviving. The Donner Party is a perfect example. It was because of a woman that the few left survived.

Quackers

(2,256 posts)
10. I don't think it can.
Wed Nov 21, 2018, 03:49 AM
Nov 2018

The fact that the children’s mothers consented or even sought out the procedure, and the procedure itself was performed by a woman, I don’t think it could meet the definition of a hate crime based on gender.


Don’t get me wrong, I hope everyone involved in torturing those poor girls rot in jail.

pnwmom

(108,977 posts)
12. Female genital mutilation is not circumcision and has zero medical benefits.
Wed Nov 21, 2018, 04:28 AM
Nov 2018

It is performed to permanently damage women's ability to enjoy having sex.

I'm not going argue the case of male circumcision here. That's a separate issue.

pwb

(11,261 posts)
15. This is a religious procedure? How many are done in our country?
Wed Nov 21, 2018, 08:14 AM
Nov 2018

Does it fall under freedom of religion? Whatever and however, it doesn't belong in our country. If it is done to young women it should be considered child abuse and the person responsible and the person who did it should be locked up or worse.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
16. It's actually an old cultural practice that has been wrapped up in "religious" garb
Wed Nov 21, 2018, 08:20 AM
Nov 2018

For example, is putting up a Christmas tree a "religious custom"?

Well, not really, Christmas trees have nothing to do with the religion of Christianity, nor do Easter customs such as eggs and rabbits. They are ancient pagan practices that got rolled into later "Christian" observances, so that people simply continued doing them.

FGM is a regional African custom. Because the relevant region later became predominately Muslim, then some people think it is a "Muslim practice" despite the fact that there are also Christians, notably in Ethiopia, who do it as well.
 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
18. Those aren't federal laws
Wed Nov 21, 2018, 08:31 AM
Nov 2018

I'm going to hang this up since I'm primarily just pissing in the wind, but the general class of "bad stuff people do to other people" laws are state laws, not federal laws. Things like bank robbery, kidnapping, mail fraud and so on, which involve interstate institutions, commerce or travel, can be the proper subject of federal criminal laws. But Congress doesn't have the power to make a whole lot of "bad stuff people do to other people" illegal unless it somehow relates to interstate institutions, federal facilities, etc..

The other thing it is increasingly useless to point out repeatedly is that the defendants in this case in Michigan are still going to trial on the remaining charges apart from the federal FGM charges.

ismnotwasm

(41,976 posts)
21. It's done by mothers and relatives to their daughters in other countries,
Wed Nov 21, 2018, 12:58 PM
Nov 2018

It’s part of a perversion of culture. It should be banned in the US, absolutely. The clitoris is a body part, the US would allow not allow chopping off a little finger say—one can live and thrive with that procedure too.

So I don’t understand why it’s allowed at all. There were and are groups in the countries were it’s prevalent “teaching the teachers” in other words, instead of western people telling folks they are wrong and bad, people from their own culture were educated to explain anatomy. I’ve talked with Muslims who say their isn’t a strong justification for it in Holy texts. (that it may have started out at a small slit in the clitoral hood to increase pleasure) I’ve talked to women from Ethiopia and Eritrea who indicated its was a country procedure done in remote areas for the most part. On the hand, I knew an Ethiopian woman who tried to get American doctors to perform the procudure on her daughter.

It’s horrific, it makes childbirth even more dangerous and painful as the scar tissue tend to rip forward, instead of stretching at the perineum, and bleeding is a concern

It’s also considered aesthetically pleasing and clean to remove the inner labia, women in certain area who DON’T get the procedure may have a hard time finding mates

Of all the things I’m pissed off at Trump for, the fact that he such all the oxygen out of the room while there are issues like this going on in the world is up at the top

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