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NashvilleLefty

(811 posts)
Thu Aug 16, 2012, 10:10 PM Aug 2012

I have a question for DU ladies.

Let's say that you were having a casual affair with someone. You told this person that you insisted on him wearing a condom. He tells you that he hates condoms, but you hold firm. So, you have protected sex and fall asleep. At some point during the night, you wake up with him inside you totally unprotected.

How would you feel? Would you consider it rape?

193 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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I have a question for DU ladies. (Original Post) NashvilleLefty Aug 2012 OP
I'm a man. It's rape BlueJazz Aug 2012 #1
First post is the winner REP Aug 2012 #19
Yes, it most certainly IS. n/t hlthe2b Aug 2012 #30
+1,000,000,000!!!!!!! Liberal_Stalwart71 Aug 2012 #82
Violated! haikugal Aug 2012 #2
YUP! Marie Marie Aug 2012 #3
Yes Freddie Aug 2012 #4
Yes. redwitch Aug 2012 #5
Just to be clear, this didn't happen to me. NashvilleLefty Aug 2012 #15
Sorry! redwitch Aug 2012 #45
According to text messages from Assange's sex patner.. girl gone mad Aug 2012 #69
I will bet a million dollars the OP doesn't respond. nt Bonobo Aug 2012 #89
you lose. NashvilleLefty Aug 2012 #121
Since my goal was to pressure you to respond, I actually feel like a winner. nt Bonobo Aug 2012 #123
Cool! then who gets the million dollars? NashvilleLefty Aug 2012 #127
If I had it, I would give it to these guys: Bonobo Aug 2012 #131
I fully agree. nt NashvilleLefty Aug 2012 #141
So if the victim doesn't fight back sufficiently hard in your opinion, the rape doesn't count? (nt) jeff47 Aug 2012 #92
If I'm in bed with a guy I'm consensually sleeping with and he get's a hard on KoKo Aug 2012 #95
The condition given for previous sex was "use a condom". jeff47 Aug 2012 #100
He penetrated her while she was still asleep. By the time she asked him if he was wearing pnwmom Aug 2012 #106
There were two women, not one. pnwmom Aug 2012 #104
The time-line you describe does not match her official NashvilleLefty Aug 2012 #120
You are wrong, the time-line matches perfectly reorg Aug 2012 #189
Totally doesn't surprise me! :( Liberal_Stalwart71 Aug 2012 #83
Yes. Absolutely. nt frogmarch Aug 2012 #6
Rape. You have to have permission, be invited, for each penetration or sexual activity. NYC_SKP Aug 2012 #7
Who is going to be standing there counting? How do you know which one KoKo Aug 2012 #97
I was taking the hypothetical of the OP in the most general sense, not related to the Assange case. NYC_SKP Aug 2012 #99
Okay...I understand your "hypothetical" and would agree but...this seemed about Assange... KoKo Aug 2012 #102
In the Assange case... NYC_SKP Aug 2012 #109
I just edited my post subject line to you...btw... KoKo Aug 2012 #112
This message was self-deleted by its author Robyn66 Aug 2012 #114
Rape,,,, WCGreen Aug 2012 #8
I would think he was an asshole and throw him out Marrah_G Aug 2012 #9
I'd kick his ass out the door and down the stairs Warpy Aug 2012 #14
Rape and the woman involved should press charges. theinquisitivechad Aug 2012 #10
Agree 100%. WillowTree Aug 2012 #16
I like that a lot, WillowTree! "My body, My rules." calimary Aug 2012 #191
Yes, it's rape. n/t tammywammy Aug 2012 #11
Absolutely it's rape. Without consent, it's rape. progressivebydesign Aug 2012 #12
. Inkfreak Aug 2012 #71
AMEN!!! The outrage over Assange is pretty creepy here on DU. Liberal_Stalwart71 Aug 2012 #84
Even his own colleague, the Stockholm Wikileaks coordinator pnwmom Aug 2012 #107
and he would know motre than anyone else why ? Swagman Aug 2012 #135
If Assange engaged in this kind of behavior with two women in one week, pnwmom Aug 2012 #137
why is OK for some on DU to think they know the truth of what went on? Swagman Aug 2012 #133
Probably, but then I probably would also pass on having sex Cleita Aug 2012 #13
Absolutely. gollygee Aug 2012 #17
exactly - the condom is less relevant than her being asleep spooky3 Aug 2012 #119
Post removed Post removed Aug 2012 #18
wtf seabeyond Aug 2012 #21
STD's can still be transmitted via oral sex. nt NashvilleLefty Aug 2012 #24
sick... DURHAM D Aug 2012 #28
Do you have plans for the next couple of months? jberryhill Aug 2012 #31
WTF does that even mean? n/t LadyHawkAZ Aug 2012 #46
spoiled little boy had to have his way without consideration to the woman. now whines seabeyond Aug 2012 #20
He has agreed to answer to go to Sweden to answer to the sex charges. Cleita Aug 2012 #23
Yes, and if only his story made a lick of sense, it might worth something jeff47 Aug 2012 #93
Isn't that what the UK is threatening to do? Cleita Aug 2012 #98
No, the UK is threatening to send him to Sweden. jeff47 Aug 2012 #103
your faith in US law is admirable eveb though there is the sticky problem of GITMO Swagman Aug 2012 #138
Why have fath in anyone, including Assange? jeff47 Aug 2012 #155
So what do you think about George Bush and Dick Cheney running around free Cleita Aug 2012 #162
I think they should be in jail jeff47 Aug 2012 #170
Since when does the accused get to set conditions like that? n/t pnwmom Aug 2012 #110
can you give me anothe rexample of when a suspect is invited to another country for an interview? Swagman Aug 2012 #139
I don't think you understand what happened. It is normal in Europe pnwmom Aug 2012 #142
And I don't think you understand that he is willing to go to Sweden Cleita Aug 2012 #164
Sweden has extradition agreements with the US that could theoretically require them to do so -- pnwmom Aug 2012 #167
Exactly, but since our justice system, especially when in comes to covering Cleita Aug 2012 #188
The accused sets conditions like that all the time. Cleita Aug 2012 #161
so you were there were you? Swagman Aug 2012 #136
then send his ass back to sweden and let him face the charges like everyone else has to. nt seabeyond Aug 2012 #143
Hell yes it's rape! nolabear Aug 2012 #22
Rape. Betrayal. And get tested. Katie Aug 2012 #25
it's not about rape. HiPointDem Aug 2012 #26
That's not what Stockholm's Wikileaks coordinator says. pnwmom Aug 2012 #111
I can see nothing about rape in that statement reorg Aug 2012 #179
The investigation he's referring to includes charges of rape, molestation, and assault. pnwmom Aug 2012 #180
He said nothing about rape reorg Aug 2012 #183
I don't agree with your slant. I think he's just using the Wikileaks situation pnwmom Aug 2012 #186
Unconsented to sex = rape. n/t Hepburn Aug 2012 #27
I'd tell him to put a condom on or pull out. Luminous Animal Aug 2012 #29
I don't know if that is quite accurate. MADem Aug 2012 #36
There is nothing that I have stated about Miss W that your link contradicts. Luminous Animal Aug 2012 #38
Did you read the entire discussion? There's additional material offered by the participants. MADem Aug 2012 #49
Miss W declined to sign the affidavit the very day she made her complaint... Luminous Animal Aug 2012 #51
She wanted him tested for STDs, and that still has not happened. MADem Aug 2012 #58
what on earth are you talking about? what have other cases got to do with this? Swagman Aug 2012 #140
You're funny. MADem Aug 2012 #147
That is exactly how I remember it. Live and Learn Aug 2012 #144
I think she was tricked reorg Aug 2012 #185
Yes. Zoeisright Aug 2012 #32
Very interesting replies. MADem Aug 2012 #33
With all due respect, this is a stupid question with Raven Aug 2012 #34
Raven, this has nothing to do with "generic rape." MADem Aug 2012 #50
+1 My thought too dear Raven. Highly questionable post content. BeHereNow Aug 2012 #62
The motive is clear. pnwmom Aug 2012 #116
Which makes it the perfect foil... BlueNinja Aug 2012 #150
Welcome to DU, BlueNinja! nt pnwmom Aug 2012 #157
Thanks for the welcome! BlueNinja Aug 2012 #159
Not a woman, but that is rape! Behind the Aegis Aug 2012 #35
I would consent to continuing the sex.. girl gone mad Aug 2012 #37
Yes. At the very least, total disrespect for you as a human being. appleannie1 Aug 2012 #39
I would support what the woman said it was. If this is about Assange's case, both women said NO rape riderinthestorm Aug 2012 #40
What if it was the other way around? ErikJ Aug 2012 #41
This message was self-deleted by its author U4ikLefty Aug 2012 #61
Hell yes! Th1onein Aug 2012 #42
you present a strange case lunasun Aug 2012 #43
Thanks for that link JonLP24 Aug 2012 #67
*sigh*. We need better science education jeff47 Aug 2012 #96
I still find it strange JonLP24 Aug 2012 #163
It happens all the time in rape cases. jeff47 Aug 2012 #169
I was aware JonLP24 Aug 2012 #171
Rape onpatrol98 Aug 2012 #44
Absolutely. Saying "no, not unless you use a condom", means no. Zorra Aug 2012 #47
It would depend how I felt about it at the time it was happening LadyHawkAZ Aug 2012 #48
it's Rape JI7 Aug 2012 #52
Yes, it's rape ismnotwasm Aug 2012 #53
Don't you trolls have a meeting tonight? RagAss Aug 2012 #54
O_o Catherine Vincent Aug 2012 #55
That's rape. Isn't this what Assange accused of doing in one case? n/t vaberella Aug 2012 #56
No, this isn't what he is accused of doing obamanut2012 Aug 2012 #86
It would seem he was...link to a poster's comment below: vaberella Aug 2012 #91
It's rape with or without the condom TorchTheWitch Aug 2012 #57
Rape bhikkhu Aug 2012 #59
assault w/ a deadly weapon. pansypoo53219 Aug 2012 #60
Yes. Blue_In_AK Aug 2012 #63
RAPE blueamy66 Aug 2012 #64
I'm usually pretty liberal about these things.... blueamy66 Aug 2012 #64
Would you consider it an international incident? me b zola Aug 2012 #66
yes if i was the victim of a rape, then i would want my government to get the asshole whatever it loli phabay Aug 2012 #75
Yes it is rape GObamaGO Aug 2012 #68
It is rape. MadrasT Aug 2012 #70
I have no patience with Le Taz Hot Aug 2012 #72
... SammyWinstonJack Aug 2012 #90
What if that person were considered a hero NashvilleLefty Aug 2012 #73
Still rape. But if someone was coerced into alleging a rape, or Zorra Aug 2012 #78
Yes. n/t RebelOne Aug 2012 #74
Absolutely! No question. The Velveteen Ocelot Aug 2012 #76
No consent = rape no_hypocrisy Aug 2012 #77
Yes it would be rape. However, only someone in a coma would not wake up upon penetration. notadmblnd Aug 2012 #79
And in fact, the person in Assange's case did wake up. Bonobo Aug 2012 #88
not true spooky3 Aug 2012 #122
Do tell. notadmblnd Aug 2012 #172
Interesting that you are now adding so many new conditions - and besides, spooky3 Aug 2012 #173
I said one would have to be in a coma not to wake up. I thought that would have pretty notadmblnd Aug 2012 #175
Having sex with a sleeping woman clydefrand Aug 2012 #80
Absolutely! First, he new my wishes. Second, he exposed me to a possible unwanted pregnancy. Third.. Liberal_Stalwart71 Aug 2012 #81
Not answering obamanut2012 Aug 2012 #85
Yes. MotherPetrie Aug 2012 #87
Yep. That's rape. And the law sees it that way, too, IIRC. kestrel91316 Aug 2012 #94
that guy would end up without a penis Skittles Aug 2012 #101
Hmm...sex without my consent...let me think... cynatnite Aug 2012 #105
This message was self-deleted by its author Robyn66 Aug 2012 #108
It is rape whether he used a condom or not. If I was asleep/drunk/drugged Roselma Aug 2012 #113
Yes. But I have a question too... Pholus Aug 2012 #115
His colleague at the Stockholm Wikileaks thinks this should be treated pnwmom Aug 2012 #117
Well, it's not like this situation will go on forever. Pholus Aug 2012 #118
I would agree with him. NashvilleLefty Aug 2012 #124
Figures. Just a drive-by cut-n-paste. Too bad. Pholus Aug 2012 #125
Obviously you don't know pnwmom, NashvilleLefty Aug 2012 #128
OK if you say so. Pholus Aug 2012 #130
How is this relevent? There is no evidence that either NashvilleLefty Aug 2012 #126
MLK was not having an affair with an FBI agent either. Pholus Aug 2012 #129
Has the US government ever used sex as a weapon . . . pnwmom Aug 2012 #134
You might be correct. Pholus Aug 2012 #145
Assange's also guilty of invading people's privacy. pnwmom Aug 2012 #146
Good thing he made that bad decision too.... Pholus Aug 2012 #148
I have a question for DUers Swagman Aug 2012 #132
It may be rape, but I doubt if even Clarence Darrow could get a conviction in this case. nt raccoon Aug 2012 #149
Are you serious? Duh. What do YOU think? catbyte Aug 2012 #151
yes Lebam in LA Aug 2012 #152
Yes. AngryOldDem Aug 2012 #153
Yes. I'd consider that to be rape. MineralMan Aug 2012 #154
First, I suffer from insomnia and I want some of whatever you are using to get to sleep... renie408 Aug 2012 #156
How often do allegations of rape result in...? LanternWaste Aug 2012 #158
How is the US government involved? NCTraveler Aug 2012 #160
US govt. representatives requests he get prosecuted under Espoinage Act LanternWaste Aug 2012 #165
"How often do allegations of rape result in" NCTraveler Aug 2012 #168
Yep, that's rape Taverner Aug 2012 #166
they're called "women" not ladies datasuspect Aug 2012 #174
LOL lightcameron Aug 2012 #192
Defenetly RAPE. darkangel218 Aug 2012 #176
absolutely rape. AsahinaKimi Aug 2012 #177
Which one gets you harder? luvspeas Aug 2012 #178
Yes, definitely. Mad_Dem_X Aug 2012 #181
I'm not a woman reorg Aug 2012 #182
Yes Karmasue Aug 2012 #184
Well, HELL yeah! Why even ASK?? WinkyDink Aug 2012 #187
Yes. ABSOLUTELY. calimary Aug 2012 #190
this is by far, the weirdest inane post I have ever seen on DU nt Laura PourMeADrink Aug 2012 #193

haikugal

(6,476 posts)
2. Violated!
Thu Aug 16, 2012, 10:12 PM
Aug 2012

I'd be pissed and hurt that he thought so little of me that he wouldn't honor my request. I'm sorry if this happened to you.

redwitch

(14,944 posts)
5. Yes.
Thu Aug 16, 2012, 10:14 PM
Aug 2012

Get tested for STDs and then I don't know what to tell you to do. So sorry this happened. So much for casual affairs right?

NashvilleLefty

(811 posts)
15. Just to be clear, this didn't happen to me.
Thu Aug 16, 2012, 10:30 PM
Aug 2012

I'm a man. Yet, there are some who are supporting a man who did do this according to his victim's report.

girl gone mad

(20,634 posts)
69. According to text messages from Assange's sex patner..
Fri Aug 17, 2012, 04:53 AM
Aug 2012

she had just returned from getting breakfast and was "half asleep" in bed. In other words, by her own admission, she was awake.

She then asked him if he was wearing a condom. When he said no, she "jokingly" (her description) replied 'You better not have AIDS' and did not request that he put on a condom, but continued to have sex with him and never asked him to stop.

A little bit different from the trumped up hypothetical you're pushing in the OP.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
131. If I had it, I would give it to these guys:
Mon Aug 20, 2012, 12:36 AM
Aug 2012
http://www.greatapetrust.org

Bonobos are fascinating. I think they point the way to aspects of humanity that should be better explored and there differences from common chimps are illuminating.

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
95. If I'm in bed with a guy I'm consensually sleeping with and he get's a hard on
Sun Aug 19, 2012, 10:48 PM
Aug 2012

after we've already had sex..I think it's kind of going "into the weeds" to get a "he said/she said" going here that a court is going to take seriously if she's half awake and asks him if he's wearing a condom and then goes ahead and has sex.

That's a really weird and I think "over the bounds" thing to accuse a person of when two people are supposedly half asleep after already enjoying sex consensually.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
100. The condition given for previous sex was "use a condom".
Sun Aug 19, 2012, 11:03 PM
Aug 2012

No condom, no permission to have sex.

if she's half awake and asks him if he's wearing a condom and then goes ahead and has sex.

So we should let Sandusky out of jail then? Most of his victims did not run away or resist. In fact, they continued to be violated multiple times while not reporting the incident to authorities. And really, he did so much for all the kids he didn't rape.

Oh wait...that would be insane.

Just because you like what the guy's done in one area doesn't mean you forgive all sins in other areas.

pnwmom

(108,977 posts)
106. He penetrated her while she was still asleep. By the time she asked him if he was wearing
Sun Aug 19, 2012, 11:15 PM
Aug 2012

a condom, the penetration -- i.e., the rape -- had already occurred.

She only consented to have sex with him earlier after he agreed to use a condom. She specifically told him she would not have sex unless he used one. Just because a woman agrees to have sex with a man one night, after he agrees to use a condom, doesn't give him the right to penetrate her the next morning in her sleep, without a condom.

asleep. Hence, no consent.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/17/julian-assange-sweden

The following day, Miss W phoned Assange and arranged to meet him late in the evening, according to her statement. The pair went back to her flat in Enkoping, near Stockholm. Miss W told police that though they started to have sex, Assange had not wanted to wear a condom, and she had moved away because she had not wanted unprotected sex. Assange had then lost interest, she said, and fallen asleep. However, during the night, they had both woken up and had sex at least once when "he agreed unwillingly to use a condom".

Early the next morning, Miss W told police, she had gone to buy breakfast before getting back into bed and falling asleep beside Assange. She had awoken to find him having sex with her, she said, but when she asked whether he was wearing a condom he said no. "According to her statement, she said: 'You better not have HIV' and he answered: 'Of course not,' " but "she couldn't be bothered to tell him one more time because she had been going on about the condom all night. She had never had unprotected sex before."

SNIP

Police spoke to Miss W's ex-boyfriend, who told them that in two and a half years they had never had sex without a condom because it was "unthinkable" for her.

pnwmom

(108,977 posts)
104. There were two women, not one.
Sun Aug 19, 2012, 11:10 PM
Aug 2012

And Ms. W.'s account, as reported in The Guardian, says she woke up to find him inside her -- hence, the rape charge.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/17/julian-assange-sweden

The following day, Miss W phoned Assange and arranged to meet him late in the evening, according to her statement. The pair went back to her flat in Enkoping, near Stockholm. Miss W told police that though they started to have sex, Assange had not wanted to wear a condom, and she had moved away because she had not wanted unprotected sex. Assange had then lost interest, she said, and fallen asleep. However, during the night, they had both woken up and had sex at least once when "he agreed unwillingly to use a condom".

Early the next morning, Miss W told police, she had gone to buy breakfast before getting back into bed and falling asleep beside Assange. She had awoken to find him having sex with her, she said, but when she asked whether he was wearing a condom he said no. "According to her statement, she said: 'You better not have HIV' and he answered: 'Of course not,' " but "she couldn't be bothered to tell him one more time because she had been going on about the condom all night. She had never had unprotected sex before."


SNIP

Police spoke to Miss W's ex-boyfriend, who told them that in two and a half years they had never had sex without a condom because it was "unthinkable" for her.

NashvilleLefty

(811 posts)
120. The time-line you describe does not match her official
Mon Aug 20, 2012, 12:04 AM
Aug 2012

statement to the police. She went to get breakfast after she woke up with him inside her. He "commanded" her to get water and juice, and later to get breakfast. Why she complied we do not know, although she stated she did not want to.

Still, she woke up with him inside her without a condom and without her consent.

reorg

(3,317 posts)
189. You are wrong, the time-line matches perfectly
Tue Aug 21, 2012, 12:55 AM
Aug 2012
He wanted her to go out and buy more breakfast. She did not want to leave him alone in the flat — she really did not know him very well — but she did it anyway. When she left the flat he lay naked in her bed and was fiddling with one of his telephones. Before she left she said, “Be good'”. He replied: “Don't worry, I'm always bad”. When she returned she served him oatmeal porridge, milk, and juice. She had already eaten before he awoke, and had spoken with a friend on the phone.

The Assault

They sat on the bed and talked, and he took off her clothes again. They had sex again and she suddenly discovered that he had placed the condom only over the head of his penis; but she let it be. They dozed off and she awoke and felt him penetrating her. She immediately asked, “Are you wearing anything?”, to which he replied, “You”. She said to him: “You better don’t have HIV”, and he replied, “Of course not”. “She felt that it was too late. He was already inside her and she let him continue.

http://www.nnn.se/nordic/assange/docs/protocol.pdf


What is conveniently left out in the "hypothecial" excerpt in the OP: nowhere is it mentioned that she was "asleep", much less in deep sleep such as during the night, which is pretty much impossible in the scenario described. She mentions to have noticed that the condom was not appropriately affixed, "only over the head of the penis" which almost ensures that it slips off, and she "let it be". When she "awoke", "she let him continue" without putting a condom on again.

It is very obvious that she couldn't get enough of it, so to question her willingness to have sex with Assange at that moment is outright laughable. I would even question the seriousness of what some posters here call the "condition" to wear a condom, the health concern. Didn't seem to matter all that much if she "let him continue" and "let it go" when it already seemed to slip off.

A misunderstanding or a inconsiderate move by her partner? Who knows, and nobody really cares. Those posters here who claim to "fight for justice" for these women had better start in their own neighborhood. Because no such "rape" case has ever taken place anywhere, apparently. I was hoping somebody could cite an example and have asked many, many times in many places, but such examples don't seem to exist ...
 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
7. Rape. You have to have permission, be invited, for each penetration or sexual activity.
Thu Aug 16, 2012, 10:14 PM
Aug 2012

That's how it's done, it's nothing new.

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
97. Who is going to be standing there counting? How do you know which one
Sun Aug 19, 2012, 10:55 PM
Aug 2012

might be telling the truth and which one is lying. Or, what if both were too sleepy but aroused to think much? WHO IS STANDING OVER YOU TO COUNT?

And in this case who was there to impartially to say who is telling the truth about anything?

Makes it sound like sex should be some kind of "written agreement" with videotape before each and every encounter when one is have consensual relations.

It's quite strange reading these replies. And, I'm a healthy female whose lived a few years and seen many circumstances and friends who have had some strange and in some cases real "forced" date rape encounters.. The Assange thing just doesn't add up rationally since the two women were friends and both were enjoying him ....until they weren't.

There's more here than what it appears, imho...from lots of reading of the back and forth.

 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
99. I was taking the hypothetical of the OP in the most general sense, not related to the Assange case.
Sun Aug 19, 2012, 11:02 PM
Aug 2012

Which brings up a whole bundle of other considerations.

In the case of two people having a casual affair, I don't think it's acceptable to penetrate a woman without her awareness and sober cooperation.

I'd call it a form of rape.

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
102. Okay...I understand your "hypothetical" and would agree but...this seemed about Assange...
Sun Aug 19, 2012, 11:08 PM
Aug 2012

is the way I took it considering that it's been the big topic today.... sorry that I misread you...

but from what I've read both women enjoyed a relationship with him. The one who complained about the condom not being fully on said she was drowsy and asked him.

Now, if she was drowsy enough to ask...she should have waked up pretty fast and said NO! I'm outta here.

It's not like he dragged her into the bedroom and said "Let's get it on, babe" and then she was held down yelling as he penetrated her. I've seen nothing in any reports that it went that way.

But, to send someone to trial because two people are sleepy and you've already had relationship with the guy and relations that night and he get's a hard on and then they both are into it....well that seems like something that has happened to all of us at one time or the other.

This does seem about Assange and that's why it was posted.

 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
109. In the Assange case...
Sun Aug 19, 2012, 11:17 PM
Aug 2012

I just haven't read up on it, but I would have to agree with you in that she could have said no, and that there's a huge chance that this is a set up.

Also, generally, if a couple are really sexually active and already had sex on a given evening, I can imagine a man penetrating.

I can see this being perfectly acceptable for some couples in a casual sexual relationship.

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
112. I just edited my post subject line to you...btw...
Sun Aug 19, 2012, 11:21 PM
Aug 2012

sorry for misreading you were stating "hypthetical." I got what you were saying after I thought about it. Sorry about that.

Response to KoKo (Reply #97)

Marrah_G

(28,581 posts)
9. I would think he was an asshole and throw him out
Thu Aug 16, 2012, 10:17 PM
Aug 2012

I know I would be really shocked if a country was ready to violate another country's sovereignty to question him about it.

Warpy

(111,254 posts)
14. I'd kick his ass out the door and down the stairs
Thu Aug 16, 2012, 10:23 PM
Aug 2012

and then I'd go to an all night drug store for Plan B.

I'd probably make an appointment with the OB-Gyn to make sure he didn't give me an ugly surprise.

I wouldn't create an international incident. I'd just kick him out and take care of it. Sex had been consensual. Sex without a condom had not.

theinquisitivechad

(322 posts)
10. Rape and the woman involved should press charges.
Thu Aug 16, 2012, 10:21 PM
Aug 2012

I'm not sure what the law states, but my understanding is that if you are asleep you cannot consent.

What a creep.

calimary

(81,235 posts)
191. I like that a lot, WillowTree! "My body, My rules."
Tue Aug 21, 2012, 01:08 AM
Aug 2012

And it's an absolute. For me, this is non-negotiable.

MY body, MY rules.

progressivebydesign

(19,458 posts)
12. Absolutely it's rape. Without consent, it's rape.
Thu Aug 16, 2012, 10:23 PM
Aug 2012

Wonder why it seems okay to some people on DU for Assange to do to a woman, what they scream about the republicans doing to women. Don't care who it is.. stay out of our bodies.

pnwmom

(108,977 posts)
107. Even his own colleague, the Stockholm Wikileaks coordinator
Sun Aug 19, 2012, 11:16 PM
Aug 2012

doesn't give him the kind of support he gets here.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/17/julian-assange-sweden

The co-ordinator of the WikiLeaks group in Stockholm, who is a close colleague of Assange and who also knows both women, told the Guardian: "This is a normal police investigation. Let the police find out what actually happened. Of course, the enemies of WikiLeaks may try to use this, but it begins with the two women and Julian. It is not the CIA sending a woman in a short skirt."

pnwmom

(108,977 posts)
137. If Assange engaged in this kind of behavior with two women in one week,
Mon Aug 20, 2012, 12:53 AM
Aug 2012

do you seriously think he hasn't done the same kind of things in the past? Word gets around.

His "close colleague" is likely in a better position than we are to have an understanding of his character.

Swagman

(1,934 posts)
133. why is OK for some on DU to think they know the truth of what went on?
Mon Aug 20, 2012, 12:50 AM
Aug 2012

or is just an allegation enough these days?

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
13. Probably, but then I probably would also pass on having sex
Thu Aug 16, 2012, 10:23 PM
Aug 2012

with someone who hates condoms because it would make me leery of any STDs he might have. Even with a condom, it would be a turn off for me knowing he probably had unprotected sex many times before me.

gollygee

(22,336 posts)
17. Absolutely.
Thu Aug 16, 2012, 10:34 PM
Aug 2012

Wow. If you have sex with someone and you didn't have permission, it's rape. It isn't even about the condom. It would have been rape if he HAD used a condom.

EDITED because after reading the thread it seems you DO consider it to be rape. THANK YOU

spooky3

(34,444 posts)
119. exactly - the condom is less relevant than her being asleep
Mon Aug 20, 2012, 12:02 AM
Aug 2012

If you are asleep, by definition, you can't consent.

Response to NashvilleLefty (Original post)

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
20. spoiled little boy had to have his way without consideration to the woman. now whines
Thu Aug 16, 2012, 10:37 PM
Aug 2012

and has all the supporters cause he does not think he ought to face the repercussions. another high profile male wanting to get away with, yes.... rape. she didnt consent. she didnt EVER consent to sex without condom.

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
23. He has agreed to answer to go to Sweden to answer to the sex charges.
Thu Aug 16, 2012, 10:42 PM
Aug 2012

He only wants the assurance that the Swedes won't extradite him to the USA. The Swedes won't give him that assurance so this is what it's all about. He has said he would be on the plane to Sweden the next day to face his accusers, but don't give him to the Americans.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
93. Yes, and if only his story made a lick of sense, it might worth something
Sun Aug 19, 2012, 10:38 PM
Aug 2012

Unfortunately for him, the US can't extradite him - he hasn't broken any US laws. Publishing classified that was leaked to you is legal. The leaking is illegal.

And if you're gonna argue something like rendition, why wait for Sweden? The UK would gift-wrap him for us before putting him on a plane.

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
98. Isn't that what the UK is threatening to do?
Sun Aug 19, 2012, 10:58 PM
Aug 2012

The minute he steps out of the embassy arrest him and..........???

Inquiring minds want to know!

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
103. No, the UK is threatening to send him to Sweden.
Sun Aug 19, 2012, 11:09 PM
Aug 2012

There isn't a legal mechanism to send him to the US - Assange hasn't committed a crime. Even if you tried to charge him under the Espionage Act, which the SCOTUS says you can't, it would be trying to apply the Espionage Act to a foreigner while they are on foreign soil. Which would get laughed out of court really fast for not having jurisdiction.

Which means the only way he could be sent to the US would be something extra-judicial. Which would be much easier directly from the UK. But Assange isn't claiming the UK will "misdirect" his London->Sweden flight to the US. He's claiming he'll be sent to the US from Sweden.

It's all about not getting to Sweden. I wonder if there's any other reason the guy doesn't want to go to Sweden.....hrm.....

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
155. Why have fath in anyone, including Assange?
Mon Aug 20, 2012, 11:11 AM
Aug 2012

I'm holding Assange to the same scrutiny I hold other public figures and governments. His story stinks more than "Iraq has WMDs".

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
162. So what do you think about George Bush and Dick Cheney running around free
Mon Aug 20, 2012, 01:18 PM
Aug 2012

and much richer than when they violated the civil rights of two countries? It seems like Assange is getting way more, over the top, draconian scrutiny than those two criminals and their enablers Rumney and Condi ever did.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
170. I think they should be in jail
Mon Aug 20, 2012, 04:34 PM
Aug 2012

But the failure of our justice system to act in their case doesn't mean no justice system should ever act in any case.

It seems like Assange is getting way more, over the top, draconian scrutiny

Not really. Up until he ran to the embassy, this was handled like a routine extradition.

Swagman

(1,934 posts)
139. can you give me anothe rexample of when a suspect is invited to another country for an interview?
Mon Aug 20, 2012, 12:55 AM
Aug 2012

despite it being the norm for investigators to travel the world in their work?

pnwmom

(108,977 posts)
142. I don't think you understand what happened. It is normal in Europe
Mon Aug 20, 2012, 01:05 AM
Aug 2012

for countries to extradite suspects to each other.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_assange


In 2010, a European Arrest Warrant was issued for Assange in response to a Swedish police request for questioning in relation to a sexual assault investigation. Assange voluntarily attended a police station in England on 7 December 2010, and was arrested and taken into custody. After ten days in Wandsworth prison, Assange was freed on bail with a residence requirement at Ellingham Hall in Norfolk, England, fitted with an electronic tag and ordered to report to police daily. Assange appealed a February 2011 decision by English courts to extradite him to Sweden, saying the allegations were "without basis".[229][230] On 2 November 2011 the High Court upheld the extradition decision and rejected all four grounds of appeal presented by Assange's legal representatives. Costs of £19000 were also awarded against Assange.
On 20 August 2010, Swedish police began an investigation into allegations concerning Assange's behaviour in separate sexual encounters involving two different women.[231][232] Assange has described all the sexual encounters as consensual.[233][234] The arrest warrant was canceled on 21 August 2010 by one of Stockholm's chief prosecutors, Eva Finne, as the investigation was downgraded to only cover lesser charges, and re-issued by Swedish Director of Prosecution Marianne Ny on 1 September 2010 who considered that the allegations could be classed as rape.[235] In December 2010, Assange, then in Britain, learned that the Swedish authorities had issued a European Arrest Warrant (EAW) to extradite him to Sweden for questioning.
According to published reports, the charges Sweden has lodged against Assange involve two different women. Their initial intention was reportedly to force Assange to take an HIV test. There are four charges: that on 14 August 2010 he committed "unlawful coercion" when he held complainant 1 down with his body weight in a sexual manner; that he "sexually molested" complainant 1 when he had condom-less sex with her after she insisted that he use one; that he had condom-less sex with complainant 2 on the morning of 17 August while she was asleep; and that he "deliberately molested" complainant 1 on 18 August 2010 by pressing his erect penis against her body.[236][237]
An extradition hearing took place on 7–8 and 11 February 2011 before the City of Westminster Magistrates' Court[238][239] when the extradition warrant was upheld.[240][241][242][243]
On 2 March 2011, his lawyers lodged papers at the High Court challenging the ruling to extradite Assange to Sweden.[244] After a hearing on 12 and 13 July 2011, the High Court reserved its judgment, and on 2 November 2011, dismissed his appeal.[245] On 5 December 2011 Assange's lawyers were granted permission to appeal to the Supreme Court, after the High Court certified that a point of law of general public importance, that ought to be considered by the Supreme Court, was involved in its decision.[246] The certified question was whether a prosecutor can be a judicial authority.[247][248] The Supreme Court heard argument in the appeal on 1 and 2 February 2012.[249] and reserved its judgment,[250] while Assange remained on conditional bail.[244][251] On 30 May 2012 the court dismissed the appeal by a majority of 5–2.[252] The court granted Assange two weeks to make an application to reopen the appeal after his counsel argued the judgments of the majority relied on an interpretation of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties which was not argued during the hearing.[253]
Barring any appeal to the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg, extradition had been expected to take place over a ten day period commencing on 28 June 2012.[254]

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
164. And I don't think you understand that he is willing to go to Sweden
Mon Aug 20, 2012, 01:21 PM
Aug 2012

to answer questions and face charges with one caveat, that he not be given to the Americans when in custody. I don't see why this is so hard for Sweden. Unless..... Sweden doesn't really want to press charges on him but is under pressure to turn him over to us.

pnwmom

(108,977 posts)
167. Sweden has extradition agreements with the US that could theoretically require them to do so --
Mon Aug 20, 2012, 01:59 PM
Aug 2012

although the agreements do make an exception for death penalty cases.

But I think there's only a tiny chance that he really fears extradition by the US; I don't know what law he could have broken as a non-US citizen with no special obligation to protect the information (unlike Manning, who was given special access to the files because of his job in the service). I think this is all a lot of grandstanding on Assange's part to avoid prosecution for sex crimes. Or maybe just narcissistic paranoia.

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
188. Exactly, but since our justice system, especially when in comes to covering
Mon Aug 20, 2012, 09:44 PM
Aug 2012

our government's ass, seems to have gone rogue these days, I don't put anything past them especially since documents have been made public that we Americans were planning to go after Assange.

Katie

(674 posts)
25. Rape. Betrayal. And get tested.
Thu Aug 16, 2012, 10:48 PM
Aug 2012

I hope this didn't happen to you, if it did you have my sympathy. What an awful betrayal of trust. Downright creepy too. I'd report it and get myself tested.

pnwmom

(108,977 posts)
111. That's not what Stockholm's Wikileaks coordinator says.
Sun Aug 19, 2012, 11:18 PM
Aug 2012
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/17/julian-assange-sweden

The co-ordinator of the WikiLeaks group in Stockholm, who is a close colleague of Assange and who also knows both women, told the Guardian: "This is a normal police investigation. Let the police find out what actually happened. Of course, the enemies of WikiLeaks may try to use this, but it begins with the two women and Julian. It is not the CIA sending a woman in a short skirt."

reorg

(3,317 posts)
179. I can see nothing about rape in that statement
Mon Aug 20, 2012, 06:34 PM
Aug 2012

You have cited this mysterious "close colleague" now several times, but it remains unclear why you seem to believe that it is relevant with respect to the rape charge.

He dismisses the suspicion that the events leading to the police investigation were a honey trap, deliberately set in motion by a conspiracy from the start, but immediately adds that, naturally, "the enemies of Wikileaks may try to use" the incident for purposes of their own.

pnwmom

(108,977 posts)
180. The investigation he's referring to includes charges of rape, molestation, and assault.
Mon Aug 20, 2012, 06:47 PM
Aug 2012

There's no other investigation in Sweden.

reorg

(3,317 posts)
183. He said nothing about rape
Mon Aug 20, 2012, 08:08 PM
Aug 2012

You misconstrue his statement as a comment on the nature of the charges when in fact he is only cited with a comment on whether there had been a conspiracy.

He leaves open the question as to whether the investigation, after the Chief Prosecutor in Stockholm, Eva Finné, shut it down, was reopened due to political intrigue. Which seems pretty obvious to me.

pnwmom

(108,977 posts)
186. I don't agree with your slant. I think he's just using the Wikileaks situation
Mon Aug 20, 2012, 08:53 PM
Aug 2012

to get lots of support in his fight against these women. And he's succeeding.

I haven't seen any laws in the US that would support a prosecution against a non-US citizen in another country for publishing anything. He's in an entirely different position than Manning, who by his own admission leaked information that he had special access to in his job in the service. Manning can be prosecuted in the US, but I don't see how Assange could, despite his paranoid protestations.

And I'm not the only one who thinks this. John Conyers also sees no clear path to prosecuting Assange.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2010/1217/Julian-Assange-in-the-crosshairs-Is-he-being-unfairly-vilified

Conyers, a liberal Democrat who will lose his chairmanship when Republicans assume control of the House in January, said it remains unclear exactly what laws Assange and WikiLeaks may have violated, for one thing.

All the discussions over whether the 1917 Espionage Act applies to this case, or whether Assange can be charged with conspiracy for helping alleged leaker Pfc. Bradley Manning, shows that the legal context here is in fact very confusing, said the Judiciary panel chairman.

For another thing, it’s unclear what the distinction is between WikiLeaks and traditional media, said Conyers. And Assange’s actions take place in the context of a system of US government secrecy that’s out of control.

Luminous Animal

(27,310 posts)
29. I'd tell him to put a condom on or pull out.
Thu Aug 16, 2012, 10:51 PM
Aug 2012

But no, I would not consider waking up to being penetrated by someone I had had sex with earlier "rape". With sex, there are all sorts of yes or no negotiations going on. The key is, for either partner, is the saying of "no". The scenario that you are alluding to in regards to Assange... the woman admits she consented, they joked about the unprotected sex afterward, she refused to sign the complaint alleging rape written by the interrogator, and has since refused to cooperate with the prosecution.

Luminous Animal

(27,310 posts)
38. There is nothing that I have stated about Miss W that your link contradicts.
Thu Aug 16, 2012, 11:15 PM
Aug 2012

Rather, it offers some facts that I knew but didn't mention...

1) It was not the middle of the night but in the morning after she had been wide awake and came back from the apartment with breakfast and laid back down in bed with him, and
2) She texted a friend and said that she was half asleep. NOT asleep.
3) She admits to continuing having sex with him without protest.

She did not sign the complaint. And she has not cooperated with the prosecution.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
49. Did you read the entire discussion? There's additional material offered by the participants.
Fri Aug 17, 2012, 12:04 AM
Aug 2012

The women who were involved were OUTED. In Sweden, I understand, it is characteristic to not reveal the names of rape victims, but these women had their names released and may have feared for their safety.

Luminous Animal

(27,310 posts)
51. Miss W declined to sign the affidavit the very day she made her complaint...
Fri Aug 17, 2012, 12:25 AM
Aug 2012

well before she was outed.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
58. She wanted him tested for STDs, and that still has not happened.
Fri Aug 17, 2012, 01:42 AM
Aug 2012

And as for signing anything, who would want to be the "asshole" that complained about the Great Hero of the WikiLeak?

It didn't help her or her co-victim at the end of the day; their names were flung across the land.

There's a lot going on there; I wouldn't assume that any reluctance to sign had anything to do with the supposed innocence of Mister Assange--the comments they made about the guy in their official statements were creepy in the extreme, frankly and were declarations of assault, plain and simple. Even in USA, if a wife doesn't want to file a complaint against an abusive husband, the police step in now and do it with or without their "OK." Even the American police understand that these crimes have an element of shame and guilt associated with them, because the victim often excoriates themself for not preventing the crime.

Assange did misbehave -- that much is clear. The only question is, is it a minor misdemeanor, or something that would put him in Swedish prison for four years? No one will know unless and until he faces the music.

I don't think he's a very nice person, to be blunt about it.

As the sub-conversations pointed out in that link I provided to you, even Sandusky's victims continued to associate with their abuser. Not all victims can process what has happened to them in an instant. Or a month, or a year...or ten years. Look how long it took the little kids who got raped by priests to come forward and demand justice.

It's a complex issue, to be sure. I am not going to second-guess the behavior of rape victims or victims of any sexual transgressions and make assumptions that they thought everything was hunky-dory solely because they didn't do X or Y. I don't really think anyone can.


The bottom line, though, is this--even with asylum, he's in prison. In Knightsbridge, central London, with a lovely view of Harrod's right across the street--but he can't go shopping there, damn the bad luck. Perhaps he can send someone over there with a cellphone to send him streaming pics, and he can "distance shop" for the things he needs...

Swagman

(1,934 posts)
140. what on earth are you talking about? what have other cases got to do with this?
Mon Aug 20, 2012, 12:59 AM
Aug 2012

how thoroughly dare you insult others who disagree who may have concern about the la and how it's administered as cheap 'Assange hero worshipers'.

where do you lot get off with your continued insults that other s may believe there is some larger going on here than meets the eye that they are engaged in some sort of hero worship.

I;m sick to death of these claims.

Live and Learn

(12,769 posts)
144. That is exactly how I remember it.
Mon Aug 20, 2012, 01:17 AM
Aug 2012

The charges seem politically motivated to me. I think the women were pressured in to making the claims.

reorg

(3,317 posts)
185. I think she was tricked
Mon Aug 20, 2012, 08:21 PM
Aug 2012

Perhaps it's not too far-fetched to assume Wilén wanted to get back at Assange for letting her drop so qickly, but it doesn't appear she was aware that the condom issue would lead to a rape allegation.

After all, who has ever heard of such a thing? I ask and ask and ask for it, but nobody can cite me a case where someone under similar circumstances was ever accused let alone convicted for rape.

I believe those who claim it is have spent too much time in debating groups and forgotten about real life.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
33. Very interesting replies.
Thu Aug 16, 2012, 10:53 PM
Aug 2012

The lad is dancing tonight, though, no doubt...I suspect he doesn't have much need of condoms in his present circumstances.

Raven

(13,890 posts)
34. With all due respect, this is a stupid question with
Thu Aug 16, 2012, 10:55 PM
Aug 2012

an obvious answer. I'm wondering about this poster.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
50. Raven, this has nothing to do with "generic rape."
Fri Aug 17, 2012, 12:06 AM
Aug 2012

The circumstances described in the OP are what Julian Assange is accused of doing.

This is a discussion about how people feel about allegations of rape when it's a whistleblower who is accused of the conduct.

BeHereNow

(17,162 posts)
62. +1 My thought too dear Raven. Highly questionable post content.
Fri Aug 17, 2012, 02:17 AM
Aug 2012

I mean WHAT IS THE MOTIVE here?
BHN

pnwmom

(108,977 posts)
116. The motive is clear.
Sun Aug 19, 2012, 11:40 PM
Aug 2012

The situation in the OP is what at least one of Assange's accusers say he did to her. But many DUers have been dismissing her claims as not constituting rape -- including in this thread.

BlueNinja

(25 posts)
150. Which makes it the perfect foil...
Mon Aug 20, 2012, 08:41 AM
Aug 2012

for Julian Assange and those who support his work. I've found the whole situation to be a quandary, at least on the surface. I read the Daily Kos piece and the sequence of events outlined there strikes me as a set-up. Some things don't ring true for me. That said, sexual assault is a very serious crime and I would never want a case decided by some stranger on the internet. The fact that Assange has managed to piss off nearly every powerful government on the planet complicates matters worse.

In a perfect world Assange wouldn't have to worry about going to prison for blowing the whistle about how the world really works and would just answer the allegations that have been brought against him in Sweden. As it stands there's a great deal of circumstantial evidence that these allegations are real, and there's a great deal of circumstantial evidence that these allegations could be part of a political witch-hunt.

Either way, to the OP's question, of course those actions are rape...if that's what happened, and that's the question that I think everyone, regardless of their support for WikiLeaks, would love to get answered. But of course, it's complicated.

Behind the Aegis

(53,955 posts)
35. Not a woman, but that is rape!
Thu Aug 16, 2012, 10:56 PM
Aug 2012

There are no ands, ifs, or buts, that is straight up rape. If this has happened to you or someone you know, please contact Rape Crisis for help and counseling.

I really hope this is a hypothetical situation.

girl gone mad

(20,634 posts)
37. I would consent to continuing the sex..
Thu Aug 16, 2012, 11:10 PM
Aug 2012

then brag about my relationship with him to the whole world online, then days later conspire with another of his sexual escapades to get revenge through the media for his two-timing, then try to erase evidence of my bragging, then change my mind about what happened and change my story several times, then flee the country.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
40. I would support what the woman said it was. If this is about Assange's case, both women said NO rape
Thu Aug 16, 2012, 11:19 PM
Aug 2012

occurred.

They declined to press charges, have said to the investigators and the press that no rape occurred.

Response to ErikJ (Reply #41)

JonLP24

(29,322 posts)
67. Thanks for that link
Fri Aug 17, 2012, 04:25 AM
Aug 2012

it highlights some things I thought was strange, especially the part about asking him to take a STD test. As the article points out, you don't need to test the alleged attacker to find out if you have a STD.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
96. *sigh*. We need better science education
Sun Aug 19, 2012, 10:51 PM
Aug 2012

If you have sex with someone who has an STD, and you get infected, you will not test positive for a while.

It takes a while for the immune response to move along enough for us to detect it. And with most STDs, we're testing for the immune response, not the pathogen that causes the disease.

So if you have unprotected sex with someone, you can wait a few months and then get tested. And by then if you got infected you're definitely infected.

Alternatively if your partner is infected, they are further along in the course of the disease and are likely to test positive right now. Compared to your guaranteed negative result right now, that's helpful.

By testing your partner, you can either 1) be relieved that they aren't infected and go on with your life, or 2) find out what they are infected with and start treatment early, greatly reducing the effects of the disease on you. For example, there's some studies showing that a drug cocktail may prevent HIV from getting a foothold if it is taken soon enough after exposure.

In this particular case Assange has delayed enough that this is no longer possible. So at a minimum, the guy's an asshole for not getting tested, regardless of what one thinks about the rape charges.

JonLP24

(29,322 posts)
163. I still find it strange
Mon Aug 20, 2012, 01:19 PM
Aug 2012

in this case. Asking the police to compel someone to give an STD test, I never heard of this before. Especially since he hasn't been convicted of anything. I don't think he's an asshole, I wouldn't have taken the test either.

Don't blame science education. I know quite a bit of science but I don't know every single thing that is scientific. I also notice once in awhile I know something another DUer may not know but I'm not an ass about it.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
169. It happens all the time in rape cases.
Mon Aug 20, 2012, 04:29 PM
Aug 2012

It's rather odd to claim a right to privacy from someone after inserting part of your body into them and ejaculating.

And I'm having a hard time coming up with a definition of "asshole" that doesn't including avoiding a blood test that might prevent someone else from dying due to the asshole's behavior.

As for the rant about science education, that's really basic stuff everyone who is sexually active should be taught. Which means everyone should be taught it. It is one of those things where if you don't know it, it can kill you.

JonLP24

(29,322 posts)
171. I was aware
Mon Aug 20, 2012, 04:46 PM
Aug 2012

of symptoms of AIDs and that they can take awhile to kick in, I have no idea how soon they come up on a test. I'm pretty sure I was taught everything at once but slowly forgot bits and pieces, it isn't something I really worry about since I don't put myself at risk.

When I say I wouldn't either, I'm referring to the police asking me too before I'm convicted, especially before I'm charged. If they have no legal authority to compel me I'm not going to submit. I would accept one if asked directly from the person but based on prior experience, if I have a STD it would be from the person asking me to take a test.

I seriously doubt it happens all the time. I never heard of it despite some high profile cases. I'm referring to before charged or convicted w/ the police asking/ordering to take one. I've known of several examples of cops tricking the suspect into giving them his DNA from a soda during an interrogation but never what you say. Not at similar stages during the process.

onpatrol98

(1,989 posts)
44. Rape
Thu Aug 16, 2012, 11:33 PM
Aug 2012

Rape...and I hope he didn't do that. He's always looked creepy to me. I'm surprised he doesn't have to pay for...companionship.

Zorra

(27,670 posts)
47. Absolutely. Saying "no, not unless you use a condom", means no.
Thu Aug 16, 2012, 11:41 PM
Aug 2012

Since "no" was said to unprotected sex, then this person would have had sex with me against my will.

Not only that, but also possibly endangered my health, even my life, caused enormous stress, and (for a younger woman), risked an unwanted pregnancy.

That's called rape, in my world.

TorchTheWitch

(11,065 posts)
57. It's rape with or without the condom
Fri Aug 17, 2012, 12:51 AM
Aug 2012

Having sex with someone who is sleeping or unconscious or otherwise UNABLE to consent to sex is rape. Why in the world would any guy want to have sex with someone that is asleep or unconscious anyway? That behavior is grossly devaluing the woman to nothing more than a life support system for a vagina.

As far as consent being only given with condom use, of COURSE if a condom is not used without the knowledge or revised consent of the woman it is a sexual assault. Whether or not it is rape may depend on the specific laws of the jurisdiction... there are still some places in the US where only vaginal sexual assault is considered rape (despicable as that is).

Giving consent to sex does not mean sex can be had whenever the guy wants it and whatever sex acts he wants to do with or without protection from STD's (as in condom usage) or protection from pregnancy (condom, diaphragm, spermicide, etc.). WHY in the WORLD should it be otherwise???


bhikkhu

(10,715 posts)
59. Rape
Fri Aug 17, 2012, 01:48 AM
Aug 2012

As a guy, I can say that the person doesn't give a shit about you - you probably wouldn't ask if you didn't know already, but unless its so casual that that doesn't even matter to you, ditch the loser.

 

blueamy66

(6,795 posts)
64. I'm usually pretty liberal about these things....
Fri Aug 17, 2012, 04:05 AM
Aug 2012

but if I told him to put a condom on and later on he didn't, while I was asleep.....yes, RAPE!

 

loli phabay

(5,580 posts)
75. yes if i was the victim of a rape, then i would want my government to get the asshole whatever it
Sun Aug 19, 2012, 09:30 PM
Aug 2012

had to do. Maybe all alleged rapists should be hunted down and brought to trial with as much effort as possible.

Le Taz Hot

(22,271 posts)
72. I have no patience with
Fri Aug 17, 2012, 07:06 AM
Aug 2012

people who purposely misrepresent events. You've been corrected several times so, buh bye.

Zorra

(27,670 posts)
78. Still rape. But if someone was coerced into alleging a rape, or
Sun Aug 19, 2012, 09:44 PM
Aug 2012

had some other ulterior motive for alleging rape, and no rape actually occurred, would it still be rape?

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
88. And in fact, the person in Assange's case did wake up.
Sun Aug 19, 2012, 10:20 PM
Aug 2012

They discussed STD's and unprotected sex and continued until he ejaculated.

notadmblnd

(23,720 posts)
172. Do tell.
Mon Aug 20, 2012, 05:35 PM
Aug 2012

No sleep disorder, no coma, no pharmaceutical sleep aids no, drinking or no death. What would cause one not to wake up upon penetration? Small tool?

spooky3

(34,444 posts)
173. Interesting that you are now adding so many new conditions - and besides,
Mon Aug 20, 2012, 05:38 PM
Aug 2012

let's say that you DID awaken--it's already rape before you've woken up.

You didn't give your consent when you were asleep. And the person penetrating you knows it.

notadmblnd

(23,720 posts)
175. I said one would have to be in a coma not to wake up. I thought that would have pretty
Mon Aug 20, 2012, 05:59 PM
Aug 2012

much covered everything. But I decided to list everything "in a coma" should have covered one by one, just for you.

clydefrand

(4,325 posts)
80. Having sex with a sleeping woman
Sun Aug 19, 2012, 10:11 PM
Aug 2012

is definitely a rape if she had insisted that he had to have a condom for the first time.

 

Liberal_Stalwart71

(20,450 posts)
81. Absolutely! First, he new my wishes. Second, he exposed me to a possible unwanted pregnancy. Third..
Sun Aug 19, 2012, 10:11 PM
Aug 2012

he exposed me to a possible unwanted STD.

Bottom line: I insist on a condom. If he violates that by forcing sex without a condom, then that's RAPE. Plain and simple.

 

kestrel91316

(51,666 posts)
94. Yep. That's rape. And the law sees it that way, too, IIRC.
Sun Aug 19, 2012, 10:44 PM
Aug 2012

At least in CA. Probably not in the Bible Belt.

Response to NashvilleLefty (Original post)

Roselma

(540 posts)
113. It is rape whether he used a condom or not. If I was asleep/drunk/drugged
Sun Aug 19, 2012, 11:23 PM
Aug 2012

nobody would have the right to take advantage of that situation.

Pholus

(4,062 posts)
115. Yes. But I have a question too...
Sun Aug 19, 2012, 11:37 PM
Aug 2012

Has the U.S. government ever used sex as a weapon against a person it saw as a threat? Even going so far as to send a warrantless wiretap tape of overheard infidelity to the target suggesting he commit suicide to avoid public humiliation?

So did Assange rape someone? It's possible. Should he face a trial? Sounds like it! Are all these governments so interested in getting him to Sweden solely because of the charge? Don't kid yourself.

I've been told many times by "security uber alles" fetishists that if I have nothing to hide then I should have no complaints about massive invasions of my privacy in this new era of big data. Given that statement I guess I should be unsurprised that they have strong reasons to want to protect their privacy...

pnwmom

(108,977 posts)
117. His colleague at the Stockholm Wikileaks thinks this should be treated
Sun Aug 19, 2012, 11:41 PM
Aug 2012

as a normal police matter.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/17/julian-assange-sweden

The co-ordinator of the WikiLeaks group in Stockholm, who is a close colleague of Assange and who also knows both women, told the Guardian: "This is a normal police investigation. Let the police find out what actually happened. Of course, the enemies of WikiLeaks may try to use this, but it begins with the two women and Julian. It is not the CIA sending a woman in a short skirt."

Pholus

(4,062 posts)
118. Well, it's not like this situation will go on forever.
Sun Aug 19, 2012, 11:43 PM
Aug 2012

Eventually, we'll all see what it's about.

So, are you going to answer my question?

NashvilleLefty

(811 posts)
124. I would agree with him.
Mon Aug 20, 2012, 12:12 AM
Aug 2012

Whether you think his actions with WikiLeaks make him a hero or a villain, this matter should be viewed separately. I understand the possibility of extradition to the US makes the line blurry, but you cannot let your preconceptions cloud your judgement in this matter.

If the allegations of these 2 women prove to be true, then he is an asshole and a rapist regardless of what he has done before.

Pholus

(4,062 posts)
125. Figures. Just a drive-by cut-n-paste. Too bad.
Mon Aug 20, 2012, 12:14 AM
Aug 2012

It isn't even like your big old quote is any different from what I was saying.

1) Needs to be investigated.
2) Will be used by those with a political agenda.

But I guess I got the cut-n-paste because I gave a nuanced, rather than a knee jerk answer.

By the way, the answer to my question was yes and the target was MLK. Just a bit of context.

NashvilleLefty

(811 posts)
128. Obviously you don't know pnwmom,
Mon Aug 20, 2012, 12:28 AM
Aug 2012

she is a long-time DUer and hardly a "drive-by"

And your example of MLK has nothing to do with the Assange case or my hypothetical.

Pholus

(4,062 posts)
130. OK if you say so.
Mon Aug 20, 2012, 12:33 AM
Aug 2012

But 1) I got a cut-n-paste which was completely duplicated in her previous post, not a real response.
2) You miss the point entirely. But that's okay, cause allegations about sex are involved.

Whatever...

NashvilleLefty

(811 posts)
126. How is this relevent? There is no evidence that either
Mon Aug 20, 2012, 12:16 AM
Aug 2012

woman making allegations had any ties to the US government.

Pholus

(4,062 posts)
129. MLK was not having an affair with an FBI agent either.
Mon Aug 20, 2012, 12:29 AM
Aug 2012

But when you're trying to win in a no-holds-barred contest, you use whatever you can. Shame on the idiot who picks a fight with the powers that be and still somehow thinks they will not have everything shady in their life immediately and forcefully tossed back at them.

I remember Scott Ritter almost arguing Cheney/Rumsfeld to a stop over WMD's but then his perv sex life became the issue and we got to topple Saddam's statue. That was sooooo worth it, wasn't it.

So pardon me for being a bit circumspect and trying to separate a person's sex life (no matter how horrible) from their other contributions.

pnwmom

(108,977 posts)
134. Has the US government ever used sex as a weapon . . .
Mon Aug 20, 2012, 12:50 AM
Aug 2012

I'm guessing it has.

Now, for a comparable question:

Has a man ever forced himself on a woman? Even going so far as to force himself on an unconscious woman?

Of course.

Neither of these questions matters to the case at hand. I agree that he should cooperate in the rape investigation and if there is probable cause, he should be charged.

If there is probable cause to charge him with violations of US laws, then he should be charged here, too. I doubt that will happen because I haven't heard of a law under which he could be charged. He's not a US citizen, unlike Manning, and he didn't commit any crime on US. soil. I actually think he's doing a lot of grandstanding to avoid the rape charges.

Pholus

(4,062 posts)
145. You might be correct.
Mon Aug 20, 2012, 01:21 AM
Aug 2012

And of course, we'll know when it plays out. And we will see it, unless you think of course that Assange will somehow manage to mail himself to Ecuador. I think it is safe to say he will be going to Sweden at some point.

Now we can talk about how horrible the allegations are for hours and hours but until he's finally and formally charged we are merely speculating. As a result, threads like the OP are specious at best as they try to play on emotion rather than the actual evidence which would be released during a real trial.

Assange was an idiot who may or may not have committed a rape but certainly damaged his cause. It remains to be seen if the current situation lands him in the U.S. based on espionage or conspiracy charges -- those are being considered by a VA grand jury (according to the Christian Science Monitor at least).

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Latest-News-Wires/2012/0819/Assange-US-may-be-holding-one-of-world-s-foremost-political-prisoners

But as far as the appropriateness of charging him -- see, I've been told repeatedly that if I've done nothing wrong then I should have nothing to hide when it comes to invasions of my privacy. It seems the watchers may have some issues about being watched that stem from the corollary.

pnwmom

(108,977 posts)
146. Assange's also guilty of invading people's privacy.
Mon Aug 20, 2012, 01:38 AM
Aug 2012

When Wikileaks "accidentally" published the unredacted names of allies who had been helping the US in other countries, he invaded their privacy, and may have even led to some deaths. The US can't prove that without exposing even more people. I doubt Assange will be prosecuted, but we shall see.

I agree that all of this is just speculation. Unless and until Assange is actually tried for something, we won't know.

Pholus

(4,062 posts)
148. Good thing he made that bad decision too....
Mon Aug 20, 2012, 07:41 AM
Aug 2012

or we might have had to deal with the substance, rather than the trivia, of some fairly sobering thoughts. Then again, I think Wikileaks proved that sunlight isn't enough anymore -- things that challenge our self-image now happen with such frequency that the natural reaction cannot be anything but apathy. Score one for the indoctrination of reality TV culture!

But I digress. To bring it back on topic, this thread was an emotional appeal to consider how horrible the allegations were in the absence of an actual trial. We both agree that it is speculation and should be tabled until the inevitable trial actually occurs.

Carry on!

catbyte

(34,376 posts)
151. Are you serious? Duh. What do YOU think?
Mon Aug 20, 2012, 08:47 AM
Aug 2012

Imagine you were having a casual affair with someone and they shoved a broomstick up your butt after you dozed off--would you feel violated?

Unfuckingbelievable.

Diane
Anishinaabe in MI & mom to Taz, Nigel, and baby brother Sammy, members of Dogs Against Romney, Cat Division
"Dogs Aren’t Luggage--HISS!”

MineralMan

(146,288 posts)
154. Yes. I'd consider that to be rape.
Mon Aug 20, 2012, 09:20 AM
Aug 2012

I can't imagine initiating penetrative sex with someone who is asleep, even if we had sex before. Everyone has the right to refuse sexual intercourse any time it occurs. Every time requires consent. A sleeping person cannot consent. Only a real asshole would do that to someone else. Not wearing a condom when that had been demanded earlier compounds the offense, in my opinion, and speaks of a selfishness and egotistical nature on the part of a man who would do that.

renie408

(9,854 posts)
156. First, I suffer from insomnia and I want some of whatever you are using to get to sleep...
Mon Aug 20, 2012, 11:16 AM
Aug 2012

and second, yes, it's rape.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
158. How often do allegations of rape result in...?
Mon Aug 20, 2012, 11:52 AM
Aug 2012

How often do allegations of rape result in the Swedish, British, American, Ecuadorian, and Russian governments getting involved?

 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
160. How is the US government involved?
Mon Aug 20, 2012, 12:49 PM
Aug 2012

The Swedish, British and Ecuadorian governments are involved for obvious reasons.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
165. US govt. representatives requests he get prosecuted under Espoinage Act
Mon Aug 20, 2012, 01:51 PM
Aug 2012

Rep. King, Chairman of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence wrote to the Attorney General Holder, asking that Assange be prosecuted under the Espionage Act of 1917, and that he should be declared a terrorist.

Senator Feinstein and Senator Kit Bond, respectively the Chairman and Ranking Member of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, sent a joint-letter to Attorney General Holder, asking him to prosecute Assange under the Espionage Act.

Those requests alone, in and of themselves, illustrate a U.S. government involving itself.

 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
168. "How often do allegations of rape result in"
Mon Aug 20, 2012, 02:16 PM
Aug 2012

Gotcha. The allegations of rape didn't result in US involvement. I think I read it to literally. You didn't mean the US was involved in any way because of the rape charges, just certain US representatives have commented on his involvement with wilileaks.

reorg

(3,317 posts)
182. I'm not a woman
Mon Aug 20, 2012, 07:58 PM
Aug 2012

Still, I'd like to relate a little story that happened to me and seems pertinent here.

I was 17 and together with friends stayed on a boat, navigating up and down the Shannon in Ireland. We all slept together in the cabin, and one night I had a fantastic dream. I literally saw angels, had colorful, seething visions of happiness and bliss. It also had increasingly distinct sexual aspects, I felt my solar plexus and something pleasant around my hips and realized that I was getting mightily aroused. The longer it went on, more and more a question was forming in my blurry mind: what is going on? You are happy, it feels great, is this real or is it a dream? Slowly my mind became less blurry and I woke up. It took a little while before I was fully aware of what was going on. One of our party, an older man, a person with whom I never had exchanged more than a few words, he was an acquaintance of my friend who had organised the boat trip, was lying behind me with his hand in my underwear and stroking my genitals, whispering "please, please".

I was totally aghast, the bliss disappeared within split seconds, the only thing now on my mind was how I could wriggle myself out of this as quickly as possible. Not only would I never have expected a sexual approach from this guy, who must have been in his mid-forties, was fat and always drunk, I also thought it was a major breach of trust to approach me while sleeping in the middle of the night. Sure, I may have been a little bit miffed upon discovering that it was NOT the hot blonde I had visited the previous evening who was touching me, and I was probably still a little uptight towards gays at that age. Now, I think I could handle the situation with cooler attitude and not be all that flustered as I was at the time.

So, I went out of the cabin and lay down on the open deck where the air was moist, breezy and cold. Unfortunately I didn't find a blanket. The next day I had fallen ill with a terrible cold. For two days I was delirious, had very high fever, like never before and never again, more than 40 centigrade Celsius. For a while my friends thought I was going to die. Naturally, they brought me to a doctor, got antibiotics, rented a room, helped me in every way. Especially this older guy, I guess he may have felt sorry and a little guilty, was most helpful and paid for everything.

When the fever came down and I had time to think about what happened I decided to leave. It never occurred to me to go to the police. Would have been easy to send him to prison for a few years at that time, I guess: in 1971 the Irish were looking askance at gays in general, particularly at those who approached minors, and it was definitely an unsolicited and unwanted "sexual assault" during sleep, although there was nothing violent in what he did. Which is the main reason I didn't want to get back at him. What I had "suffered" was a little shock and nothing more, and I can very well live with this. Although it had also some less pleasurable consequences like the night on the open deck and what followed.


Has my little story anything to do with your question? Well, yes, I feel it is my right as someone who has experienced what it actually feels like to be "sexually attacked" during sleep and wake up to the realization that a stranger is fiddling you to comment on the outrageous, despicable suggestion that what happened to Sofia Wilén as described in the summary of her police interview has even remotely anything to do with rape. Get a fucking grip!

They were sexually congregating throughout the entire night and continued after breakfast. There is no doubt whatsoever that she consented again and again and again. He could very reasonably assume that she consented, and that is all that matters, even if she had, like him, "dozed off" for a moment.

She didn't stop when she realized that he had initiated another bout of huffing and puffing, she didn't stop when she realized it was without a condom, and she had already "let it go" when she had realized before that the condom was not affixed appropriately.

What may indeed be in question is how much she actually WAS concerned about protection against STD, or whether she was just insisting on a condom as a matter of principle, or because Ms Ardin reminded her that she should have.

calimary

(81,235 posts)
190. Yes. ABSOLUTELY.
Tue Aug 21, 2012, 01:04 AM
Aug 2012

When I was single, that was my big test for any man who wanted to get close to me. Would he be willing to choose consideration of my feelings over his wish for his own momentary pleasure - because he simply HAD to "feel it" without a condom? That told me a TON about any possible suitors, boyfriends, and certainly marriage material. If the boy put aside his own love of feeling it, in order to make sure I felt protected and comfortable, that told me he was worth hanging around with. Maybe for the long term. Like the guy I eventually married. If, on the other hand, he put his own pleasures over my concerns, or insisted it'd be okay and nothing would happen or "oh, just this once won't risk anything," I would not, and did not, go further with him.

'Cause that told me how he'd behave later on if we were together or married or otherwise committed - how he'd take my feelings and concerns into account on a LOT of things - way beyond just sex. If it was just all about him and his pleasure, then I knew that meant there'd certainly be no room for me.

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