BOMBSHELL NYT REPORT on Manafort/Trump Lawyer Meetings: Trump Is Officially Fucked

[berni_mccoy]

In the bombshell report tonight that Manafort’s lawyers were meeting with Trump’s lawyer’s, feeding information back to Trump’s Legal Team means only one thing: Trump is guilty. Of Obstruction. Of Conspiracy. Of Treason.

A Lawyer of an innocent person would inform the FBI that a cooperating witness was attempting to meet with them. It’s pretty clear Trump’s legal team didn’t do that.

Not only did Manafort commit Obstruction, he’s also lied to Federal Investigators and committed fraud.

But in repeatedly meeting with Manafort’s lawyers, Trump has done exactly the same thing.

Trump. Is. Fucked.

[HipChick]

1. Lock them all up!...

[redstatebluegirl]

2. The teflon Don will rise again.

I wish this were true but he appears to be teflon!

[LBM20]

12. There is absolutely no need to wave the white flag. Strong case. Give it time. No surrenduring.

[Harker]

65. Steel wool defeats teflon. n/t

[True Blue American]

68. Yeah, teflon scratches

Like heck! Far from permanant! I gave it up long ago.

[Harker]

75. Yep.

A little abrasive and enough time...

[Larrybanal]

70. it doesn't help

that congress or at least the senate knows what he is and makes excuses and has zero taste for calling him on anything...trump aint going to change so he is going to need to be controlled

[unblock]

3. The fbi knows they have a joint defense agreement

They've basically announced to the world that they're sharing information and coordinating their defense.

[berni_mccoy]

4. When you agree to cooperate with an investigation and plead guilty

You can no longer have a joint defense agreement.

[unblock]

5. Ah, thanks!

[onenote]

8. Really? Care to share the joint defense agreement?

I've drafted several over the years and I'm curious about the factual basis for your generalization.

[LiberalFighter]

56. A former AG pointed out that current AG's

are probably now including in the plea agreements that joint-agreements have to be severed. Or something along that way.

[Jarqui]

10. I think they can legally still discuss things with each other

but their exchanges are no longer privileged - they can he scrutinized by the prosecutor

[onenote]

21. Nope.

The entire point of a joint defense agreement is to allow attorneys for parties with a common interest to communicate with each other without waiving attorney-client confidentiality.

[cilla4progress]

36. The lawyers on Lawrence beg to differ with you.

Jill Wine-Banks and former US attorney of 25 years from AL whose name escapes me.

They say once you cop a plea you are no longer defending, so, JDA auto terminates.

[onenote]

39. Typically a party will withdraw from a JDA after reaching a plea deal

But there is no legal obligation to do so.

[cilla4progress]

42. Yes, implied.

Deplorables seem to think if it's not explicitly forbidden, it's permitted.

They don't seem to believe in civilization. Burn it down, they say!

[Jarqui]

49. There is also this potential problem with the conduct

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

[choie]

50. John Dean and Cong. Adam Schiff

who was a prosecutor, stated that ethically,, it is the lawyer's responsibility to stop sharing info if his client has "flipped" and agreed to a plea. He/she is also supposed to report any subsequent communication to the prosecutor. Which only makes sense in order to prevent obstruction of justice.

[LiberalFighter]

57. I believe that someone pointed out the possibility they have violated legal ethics

or something like that. Could subject them to disbarment.

[True Blue American]

69. This is why I ask

Can Attorneys be sued for ignoring the agreement they made for a client?

[Jarqui]

47. Former federal prosecutor Renatto Mariotto does not agree with you:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211482069

12/ Because Manafort had agreed to cooperate with Mueller, his attorney's communications with Trump's team were no longer privileged because they do not share a common interest. Mueller should seek to discover the communications between Manafort's attorney and Trump's attorneys.

She goes on to outline how it would be difficult to do - I didn't say it would be easy. But discussion covered by the client confidentiality one traditionally expects is now exposed to scrutiny because they no longer share a "common interest".

[Grasswire2]

60. Renatto is a "he" AFAIK nt

[lancelyons]

77. How can you enter into a plea arrangement with Special Counsel and think you can

How can you enter into a plea arrangement with Special Counsel and think you can have a joint defense agreement with the attorneys of the side you are cooperating against?

That does not seem legitimate. Just on its face it seems wrong.

You cant get a deal to reduce your penalties by cooperating with the prosecutors looking into crimes Trump and CO committed and then have a joint defense agreement with the Trump lawyers.

[lancelyons]

78. Can Manaforts attorney be disbarred? Can Trumps attorneys be disbarred?

Is this something that rises to the level of disbarment?

[Magoo48]

89. It's all speculation, of course, until it's not.

Time for Mueller to shit or get off the pot.
We’ve thought 45 was fucked so many times.
Yet, here he is still committing new crimes.

[libdem4life]

6. Oh crap, is it too soon for "Yipeeeeeee"?

I've read so many bombshells, he's becoming unhinged, etc. ... I'm just a simple girl who wants to Raise Some Fu#king Giant Celebration Hell of a Party.

Oh please, let this be just a bit true.

[Leghorn21]

7. NO LIE, life!! I'm reading all these tweets about this, and some people say GAME OVER and

others say, oooohhh, this is bad for Robert Muller & Co.

Keepin the faith, EEK

[Renew Deal]

9. Is that why Guiliani has gone quiet?

[libdem4life]

11. Haha Guiliani quiet...now that's an oxymoron, if ever there was one. nt

[regnaD kciN]

29. "I have nothing to say, except...9/11! 9/11!!! 9/11!!!!!"

[cilla4progress]

38. Giuliani

leaked this! Manafort's' double-dealing.

[libdem4life]

44. America's Mayor...what can you say?

Apparently not a lot...just wow.

[onenote]

13. The NY Times article says no laws were violated

It helps to read the article before popping champagne corks.

[itsrobert]

14. According to ?

who?

[berni_mccoy]

15. The source for the NYT in this story is Rudy Giuliani

So take that for what it is.

[itsrobert]

19. But the statement was made by

Michael S. Schmidt, Sharon LaFraniere and Maggie Haberman

Maggie working her magic protecting her buddies.

[berni_mccoy]

20. I agree. Legal analysts on MSNBC are all saying its a violation

Manafort certainly lied to federal investigators and obstructed justice.

It’s likely Trump did too by agreeing to meet with them.

[onenote]

22. A violation of what?

[berni_mccoy]

25. Lying to Federal Investigators and Obstructing Justice

Former prosecutors on MSNBC all say this is illegal and a joint defense agreement has no merit once one party of the agreement cooperates with investigators.

This makes the other party’s of the agreement guilty of conspiracy to commit obstruction if they collude with the cooperating witness to obstruct.

[onenote]

33. The lawyers talking to each other isn't lying to prosecutors or obstruction of justice

Yes, its typical for a party to terminate its participation in a joint defense agreement when that party cuts a deal. But unless the prosecution makes doing so a condition of the deal, there is no legal requirement that the joint defense agreement be terminated. As described in the Times article:

"Defense lawyers involved in investigations with multiple witnesses often form such alliances so they can share information without running afoul of attorney-client privilege rules. But when one defendant decides to cooperate with the government in a plea deal, that defense lawyer typically pulls out rather than antagonize the prosecutors who can influence the client’s sentence. For instance, a lawyer for the president’s former national security adviser Michael T. Flynn withdrew last year from such an agreement with Mr. Trump’s lawyers before pleading guilty to a felony offense and agreeing to help the special counsel.

"Mr. Manafort’s lawyers, on the other hand, maintained their joint defense agreement with the president’s legal team even after Mr. Manafort pleaded guilty to two conspiracy counts in September and began answering questions in at least a dozen sessions with the special counsel.

"Even if the pact was mostly informal at that point, law enforcement experts said it was still highly unusual for Mr. Manafort’s lawyers to keep up such contacts once their client had pledged to help the prosecutors in hope of a lighter punishment for his crimes."

[cilla4progress]

40. Wine-Banks did say

that prosecutors everywhere should be updating their plea agreements to include language forbidding sharing info. It's not been necessary before....you know, norms and all.


I think it implicitly violates the spirit of "cooperation."

[onenote]

43. Exactly.

It's the same thing as two witnesses discussing a case with each other. Unless the judge directs that there should be no such discussions, they're free to do so. Discussing, in and of itself, is not tampering. The plea deal struck by Mueller and Manafort doesn't bar Manafort's attorneys from talking to Trump's attorneys.

Keep in mind that the purpose of the JDA is simply to allow attorneys -- not their clients -- to communicate with each other without waiving their clients' attorney-client privilege.

[triron]

45. Something is wrong with that.

[berni_mccoy]

72. Laurence Tribe would disagree with you

Link to tweet

Great reporting, weak legal analysis: The shocking installation of Manafort as a Trump mole inside the Mueller probe wasn’t just “highly unusual.” It was blatantly illegal. Witness tampering and obstruction of justice are serious federal crimes.

[Eyeball_Kid]

58. And Michael Schmidt gets his facts wrong. n/t

[GusBob]

18. I think it goes like this. I could be wrong

Manafort was lieing to the FBI
The FBI knew he was lieing, let him and played along
Manafort was sharing the lies he told the FBI with Trump ( conjecture: and what questions they asked about the lies and perhaps their belief in his lies) that's the big story here
Trump spewed the same lies to the FBI in his written question proffer

So no crime was committed in the information exchange, but they were set up by it

[mchill]

28. I agree

Though not sure if the lawyers didn’t violate some ethical boundary by sharing. I do love the thought of Mueller multi-tasking...giving Manafort 10 more days to come clean...just long enough for Trump to get his “book report” in.

[GusBob]

32. The old "give them enough rope to hang themselves" ploy

It will come out in Manaforts sentencing

[mchill]

37. That will be a fun document IF

Not sealed. Just catching up with RM and the curiosity of these Mueller items being released publicly and the possible needed circumvention of Whitaker.

I can imagine Trump fuming right now. Delicious.

[DENVERPOPS]

62. Trump must be fuming right now

Trump doesn't have the intelligence to be anywhere near as frightened as he should be.
But then again:
As he so often has declared, on any matter, he is way smarter than everyone, including his attorneys, don't you know.

He has no idea or comprehension of the wrath of hell he, his administration, and his kiddies will see coming their way when the Republicans finally say enough and go after him themselves!
They will do it when he has outgrown his usefulness, and then the Repubs can campaign on the platform that THEY saw the problems with him, and THEY took care of the problem of throwing him out and putting Pence in just before the 2020 election........
It's a win win for them. Just think of all the stuff the Repubs have shoved thru these past years while Trump provided a daily distraction from their skulduggery in the House, Senate, and Supreme Court. (Along with the conservative media which is about all of the media these days).

for a bonus: My tax accountant says, just wait until the middle class does their taxes for 2018 &2019......they are going to get a big surprise re: Trump's so-called Tax Cuts when they fill out their tax returns................

[Roadside Attraction]

35. Does anyone here remember . . .

Muhammed Ali and his Rope-A-Dope???

Looks as though Mueller does.

[qazplm135]

81. Pepperidge Farms

Remembers

[TNLib]

88. That's what I'm thinking.

But I guess we'll find for sure eventually.

[fishwax]

16. I'm betting/hoping that the written questions Trump answered included some sort of "trap street"

questions designed to reveal and/or confirm Manafort's duplicity and trump's access to Manafort as a channel of information about the investigation. I don't think it's a coincidence that Mueller's agreement with Manafort started breaking down pretty quickly after trump turned in his answers.

[volstork]

17. I think you are

most likely correct. It's not like dump and co. would double check stuff like that; they're idiots.

[mchill]

31. I don't Think there is any coincidence here

And also, Corsi releasing that draft Mueller document today because perhaps Whitaker didn’t approve Mueller to file it. Why was Corsi allowed to even have an unfiled copy?

[Jersey Devil]

51. The questions were sent to Trump long before Manafort flipped

I think they go back to last June and Manafort did not flip until September, so the questions to Trump could not possibly have been a trap for Trump

[fishwax]

82. ah, I was not aware of that

[Stinky The Clown]

23. Trump has done very well in protecting himself

The Supremes. The lower courts. The Senate. The DOJ.

Who is going to stop him? The House? Not now they can't. All they can do is get the evidence out to the public. After that, nada. We may even see arrests, but they will be easily dealt with when all levers of power are in the hands of a MANIAC.

[triron]

27. Agree. This is insane though.

[mcar]

24. Wow!

Just read it. This is huge.

[triron]

26. Maybe he will get away with it. Certainly seems that way to me.

[Jersey Devil]

54. The lawyers will get away with it. Manfort will not (nt)

m

[triron]

59. OK

[bluestarone]

30. Wonder if Whitaker was involved somehow?

[triron]

41. You can bet on it.

[Hoyt]

34. Until trump gets on helicopter for last time, I consider this Fitzmas2. Enough bombshells.

[Kablooie]

46. I'll bet the Trump answers were coordinated to concur with Manafort's lies.

And Mueller knew about it so he would have on paper Trumps sworn statements that were clearly lies.

That's why he delayed Manafort's sentencing for 10 days.
To get the answers from Trump before he revealed that he knew about Manafort lying.

[pecosbob]

48. And to top it off, the damning information will be in the court record for public scrutiny

I read (secondhand) yesterday that the presentence report for Manafort will be written in one version for the HJC and one version for public release.

[world wide wally]

52. The GOP Senate doesn't give even one shit about how many laws Trump breaks

He is their lord and master.
Period

[D23MIURG23]

53. IMO this might be significant, but the Assange-Manafort meeting is more significant.

There was collusion/conspiracy/treason, whatever you want to call it. Its becoming more obvious and we are going to learn more of the details.

Maybe the Manafort/dump communication is grounds for obstruction charges, maybe it isn't - but we'll never get rid of this asshole on the basis of obstruction alone - it would be another Clinton impeachment. The real story is all the dirt that dump is trying to keep under wraps: his criminal ties to Russia, his criminal business practices, his use of Cohen to violate campaign finance law, and his abuses of power. His conduct toward the Mueller probe is not what makes him the dirtiest president in history.

It's all going to come out, so no need to go off prematurely.

[Mr.Bill]

55. Hate to say it, but

as long as there are 34 republican Senators, absolutely nothing will happen.

[uponit7771]

64. +1, I think Red Don's pimp knew this and that's OK with them. They'll lose the mid term battle to...

... win the presidential election war seeing little to nothing has been done nationwide to protect the election system from inside or outside BS.

There are few if any people I know who think the Russians broke into voter role ... systems ... took a look around and said "nah, we don't want any of this stuff here".

They can only threaten or blackmail or try to thwart the state level investigations into Benedict Donald's crime families.

Red Don can screw a goat bucket naked in the middle of time square and the KGOP will reward him for it.

[malaise]

61. Lock them up!

That is all

[OnDoutside]

66. Since Manafort's lawyers told Trump's lawyers what was asked & answered, I guess we now know why

Trump delayed answering those written questions for so long, AND conceivably Mueller fed Manafort information that could only have come from Manafort, which was repeated on Trump's written answers.

[Jersey Devil]

71. That would be so sweet

We can only dream, but I am pretty certain that Trump's answers were nothing more than generalities designed to completely avoid answering the questions. I think that when we finally see those answers (if we ever do) we will be amazed at how little information Trump actually provided.

[GeorgeGist]

67. Not officially ...

until he's sentenced.

[UCmeNdc]

73. K&R

Manafort’s lawyers ‘repeatedly’ coordinated with Trump’s team about what he told Mueller:


I guess Manafort was expecting a pardon in return for his "spying on Mueller's investigation service" to Trump's administration. Isn't that the very textbook example of obstruction of justice?

[neohippie]

74. There seems to be some confusion

The charges Manafort pled to were not related to the Conspiracy against the United States, which is what I believe, all the defendants have a Joint Defense Agreement about.

So the JDA would appear to be allowed, at least that is my take on this.


However, I still believe that Mueller knew that Manafort's legal team would be sharing information with Trump's lawyers and that Mueller knew from the outset that Manafort was lying and he didn't really need his cooperation, but could have used Manafort's cooperation to allow the targets of the conspiracy charges to keep their conspiracy in play by allowing them to coordinate their stories, while having other sources for information that can prove that they are witness tampering, coordinating their false testimony, lying and so on.

If that is the case than Mueller is just gaining more evidence of the conspiracy

I posted this story in Latest Breaking news yesterday but it was locked, due to it being analysis but it kind of hints at what I am saying

Source: Wired Magazine

Manafort’s apparent dissembling has given Mueller’s team an excuse to publish everything they know about Manafort’s “crimes and lies,” whether they’ve been publicly discussed yet or not. That could potentially include new information about that mysterious 2016 Trump Tower meeting—prompted by a Russian offer to help the campaign—or details about the apparent Assange connection.

A Manafort sentencing submission, meanwhile, would sidestep the current awkward question of delivering a “Mueller Report” to the acting attorney general, Matt Whitaker, that could be suppressed politically or redacted before release.

Beyond the surprise twist in the Manafort case, a number of signs in recent weeks indicate that Mueller might be moving towards further indictments—and perhaps even some big ones, an end-of-year denouement.

Mueller’s team has reportedly been laser-focused since the spring on Trump aide Roger Stone, who has said for months that he expects to be indicted. Stone has long been suspected of contact with WikiLeaks, potentially relating to the hacked Podesta emails. Likewise, the screws have recently tightened on Stone ally and conspiracy theorist Jerome Corsi, whose plea deal with Mueller, The Atlantic reports, appears to have fallen through.

Read more: https://www.wired.com/story/manafort-mueller-russia-investigation-endgame/

[lancelyons]

80. Thats a good analysis but will it make a difference.

At this point, even if they showed the collusion. Even if it was shown that Trump knew about or ordered the Khasoggi murder.. The GOP would not do a damn thing about this.

So where does this leave us? Is the only recourse on this left to the voters? Are the voters the only way to get Trump out of the way?

[C_U_L8R]

76. So is Trump going to order Whitaker to shut its all down?

It seems that things are getting perilous for Trump. Maybe it's even too late to weasel out of trouble - puppet AG or not.

[lancelyons]

79. Can Manaforts attorney be disbarred? Can Trumps attorneys be disbarred?

it seems unethical at best what they did.

[handmade34]

84. not...

as long as Republicans hold the Senate.

[OnDoutside]

85. If Trump were to pardon Manafort after Friday's sentencing, could he leave the country immediately,

or could there be State charges in Virginia ready to go ?

[Paladin]

86. Yeah, I keep reading these Trump. Is. Fucked. predictions.

Hoping that one of these days it actually happens.

[LiberalLovinLug]

87. I guess some need to read these kinds of sensationalist headlines

"Trump is Officially Fucked"!

To me, all it does is make the pain worse. Like a flipped version of the boy who cried wolf...where the wolf is assumed to be Mueller, and the sheep are being led by an actual deranged fat orange wolf in sheeps clothing, who is the Mueller wolf's mortal enemy. And half of the sheep think he's one of them. And don't believe the shepard boy either. The rest of us in the herd don't need to wake up every morning with premature victory statements because at the end of each day, with no Mueller wolf in sight, it becomes an emotional let down.

Slow and steady wins the race. Like a playoff sports team. Don't get too high, and too low. One game at a time. The last one was taking the House. We'll get there. But we also may not get everything we want from Mueller either. In the end, it isn't even about Mueller, its about enough of the public coming to the rescue to stand up for law and order and inalienable rights, and to demand their politicians steer the country in the right direction again.

[bdamomma]

90. LOCK THEM UP

They are not above the law, criminal thugs they all are.

[elocs]

91. Trump is not fucked until he is fucked.

So why not save the dancing and gloating until it actually happens?

[MadDAsHell]

93. Because people want clicks, views, and reccs NOW, not later dammit. nt

[elocs]

94. Well, people are shallow. n/t

[Scurrilous]

92. K&R

[sellitman]

95. tRump is in the process of shutting this whole Russia thing down

There is nothing the Democrats can do about it.

Until I see otherwise I will continue believing the worst.

The Senate will do nothing.

[Honeycombe8]

96. Trump isn't fucked.

We all wish it were so. Trying to read his mind on why he did things he did, and how that is not how an innocent person would act, doesn't equate to legal guilt.

[Apollyonus]

97. Not surprising

Trump has lived his life with crime, fraud, extortion and bribery.

He attracts all the criminals to work for him.