Neil deGrasse Tyson's Response to Allegations of Sexual Assault Is Self-Defeating

[oberliner]

He confirms several aspects of the allegations but denies that any of them were harmful.

Excerpt:

Tyson again fails to grasp subjectivity discussing his relationship with his former production assistant, Ashley Watson. She told Patheos that Tyson allegedly invited her up to his apartment for wine, hung out in an undershirt, put on suggestive music, made jokes about stabbing as he sliced up cheese, and then talked about how humans need physical release, and did she?

Tyson in turn describes his relationship with Watson as “a fun, talkative friendship.” He fails to realize that she might have been so warm to him on so many hours of car rides—one of her duties was to drive him around—because it was her job.

His misread of her emotional interest in him allows him to confirm several of her allegations while he attempts to pass them off as benign. He confirms that he invited her up to his apartment for a late-night hangout and wine as “a capstone of our friendship,” despite a crew party simultaneously happening that night, without any awareness that she might have felt pressured to say yes because he was her boss. He excuses his response to her offer of a hug—he declined saying, “If I hug you I might just want more”—as being merely clumsy. He repeatedly points out that she had a habit of doling out hugs, as though it has any bearing on whether his response is intimidating (it is). He notes that he gave her “a special handshake” that involved feeling the other person’s pulse, which he passed off as a Native American tradition (Adrienne Keene, an assistant professor of American studies and ethnic studies at Brown University, expressed doubt over its origins on Twitter). Tyson ought to know that Watson found all of this creepy because she told him she did when she quit her job, before production was over.

https://slate.com/technology/2018/12/neil-degrasse-tyson-sexual-harassment-allegations-response.html

[manor321]

1. IMHO, seems like a good statement from him

And call me crazy I still advocate for due process.

[janterry]

2. I agree. This is sloppy journalism

They should wait until the investigation is over.

[oberliner]

5. The article is based on things that he has admitted to saying and doing

And evaluating those behaviors and statements.

None of what is described is contested by NDT - it is all based on what he admits to in his statement.

[wasupaloopa]

10. Do they rise to the level of sexual harassment

is the question many here are ignoring.

That is why thorough investigation is warranted. The same was true for many who get accused.

But no you want to be judge jury and executioner.

[oberliner]

15. I don't want to be judge, jury, or executioner

There is zero suggestion from me that he should go to trial (or get executed) for engaging in the behavior that he engaged in.

The only thing in question is whether or not this behavior ought to impact the decision making process of networks who are deciding whether or not to give him his own television show.

Much like how folks weighed in on whether or not Roseanne should be removed from her show for what she tweeted and said or, more recently, whether or not Kevin Hart should be allowed to host the Oscars in light of his comments and tweets.

The fact that Ashley Watson felt uncomfortable enough by NDT's behavior to speak to him about it, tell a supervisor, and quit her job might be worth taking into account when considering his getting his own show.

[guillaumeb]

51. Well said.

No matter who it is, accusations should be investigated.

[Bluesaph]

67. Objectively speaking as a woman who likes him

Yeah. That seems pretty creepy. Yuck!

[oberliner]

3. Due process?

He isn't charged with any crime.

The question is just with respect to whether or not he should get his own show.

It's more akin to determining that Kevin Hart should not host the Oscars or that Roseanne should be removed from her show.

Does the behavior that NDT admits to engaging in warrant reconsidering giving him his own show is all that is in question here.

[Hortensis]

13. Exactly.

I have to wish a person who never goes outside without looking at the sky (how wonderful is that?!) well but have no idea about this case.

[Flaleftist]

4. Where is the sexual assault in all of this?

He may have been coming on to her in a way she found creepy, but where is the alleged sexual assault? Did he keep her there against her will? Was there non-consensual contact? Did he make any threats?

[Eliot Rosewater]

6. As long as the ALLEGATION shows up on DU so everybody can see it

SIGH SIGH SIGH SIGH SIGH

goes on and on...amazing

not talking to you, Flaleftist...just using your post to make a very frustrated point...

[oberliner]

38. There is no accusation of sexual assault with respect to Ashley Watson

Only one person has made such an accusation against him thus far and it related to something that is alleged to have occurred over 30 years ago.

[bitterross]

7. It's a biased, illogical, stupid article.

At the outset, the author makes it clear their position is Tyson is guilty and no amount of reasoning and logic will convince otherwise. This statement is a doozy:

Ultimately, he sees his interactions with other women as a sort of word problem that can be cleared up via an investigation—if someone could just do the math, we’d certainly be able to figure out the rational, hard truth.

Well, duh, yes. It really is a problem that can be cleared up by investigation. One that Tyson is happy to have done. Unlike the Brett Kavanaughs of the world. If we cannot clear these situations by investigations then let's just go back to hanging everyone who is accused of being a witch. Same basic logic on the part of the author.

The article is self-defeating in its other arguments too. The author's premise is that Tyson isn't the "bumbly nerd who is just here to talk about planets and go on adventures, not one of the most powerful men in physics and a behemoth in entertainment alike."

There are two problems with this. At the time of the alleged rape, he was just a grad student. Not the titan of physics and entertainment. Second, the author says over and over "Tyson again fails to grasp" this or that particular aspect of being a woman or how a situation might be perceived by others.

That line of reasoning actually supports and confirms Tyson's very claims to not realize he was being "creepy" or that his assistant might have seen the situation in a completely different manner than he saw it.

Tyson SAID he didn't know he was being creepy and the author did too. While ignorance of the law is not a defense, the absence of intent certainly is. The author supports the very notion he's ignorant of how the situation looks, which means the author sees Tyson has a lack of intent.

To follow the author's line of reasoning to its most absurd conclusion every male must approach every interaction with a female from the lens of "how will this look later, are my actions going to look like assault later?"

I have faith that 99% of males are as completely clueless as Tyson and the author claims Tyson is. There most certainly is that 1% who are predators. If you read the research on this type of person they do gravitate to Politics, Entertainment, and the highest levels of the corporate board room. Read the book "The Sociopath Test" on this. I do not believe, based on the evidence we currently have, Tyson is part of that 1%.

I can say 99.9% of the males with whom I was raised were taught to respect every person and have never assaulted anyone.

[oberliner]

11. What could an investigation clear up with respect to Ashley Watson?

Last edited Sat Dec 8, 2018, 02:28 PM - Edit history (1)

Everything that he says comports with everything that she says. His statement corroborates all of the things she accuses him of saying and doing. He just asserts that his motives were innocent. The author of this article reviews the evidence and evaluates that assertion based on facts agreed upon by both parties.

[bitterross]

21. The same things we wanted out of a Kavanuagh investigation

There was a huge cry for an investigation of Kavanaugh. To see if his character and overall actions at the time of the allegations by Dr. Ford were more in line with a person who would have behaved the way she accused him of behaving or not. Kavanaugh was opposed to it. For good reason. A fair investigation would have shown him to be the despicable cretin he is. It would have shown he was a black-out drunk, an openly misogynistic, self-important, privileged ass.

Why, all of a sudden, a similar sort of investigation of Tyson would be fruitless and meaningless to so many people like you is rather perplexing. As a graduate student at the time of the alleged incident, DeGrasse-Tyson would have been interacting with hundreds of female students. He was probably a teaching assistant so he would have had power over those students. Were he at all inclined to either use that power over the students to sexually assault or to go so far as to drug and rape there will be other students with similar stories. Just as there were with Kavanaugh. The type of person who does that is usually a serial offender.

A real investigation that sought out his students from that time would be a good indicator of whether or not the allegations are true. It could bring forward other women who were abused or it could clear his name with reasonable certainty by the complete absence of any other alleged incidents.

I find it very annoying that Tyson is being given the Al Franken treatment.

[oberliner]

39. That makes sense with respect to the allegation from the 1980s

I was thinking more with respect to Ashley Watson's claims that he seems largely to corroborate in his statement.

[bitterross]

44. The same applies. If there are other interns/assistants out there.

It's obtuse to not think the same thing applies to any more current instances. An investigation will turn up whether he is consistently a cretin or not. He corroborates her statements that an event happened. That is all.

[Loki Liesmith]

8. This article is deeply stupid

It rejects reason, evidence and objective reality for unprovable subjective sludge.

Eff that noise and people that believe it.

[bitterross]

9. Thank you. I outlined the highlights of the stuipid above.

I read it and thought, "Damn, people really need to learn critical thinking and logic." The author defeats their own arguments in the article.

[oberliner]

12. An opinion piece is, by definition, subjective

She is basing her opinion primarily on the evidence that both Tyson and Watson agree on in terms of what occurred. There in fact does not appear to be anything in dispute on that score other than motive and intention - which is something that is up for speculation based on said evidence.

[Kingofalldems]

14. Meanwhile there's a felon in the White House.

Your OP reads like right wing talking points from here.

[ismnotwasm]

16. I think he *is* a "bumbly nerd"

That doesn’t mean he’s not creepy as well.

That being said, I agree if he’s accused, he should get his investigation.

I also think, hope actually, that we have a changing culture where we don’t have to pretend poor flirtation or subvert predation for that matter is somehow endearing. Dude was flirting with his driver and didn’t understand she didn’t like it.

I have a horrible time with this, because he’s Neil Degrasse Tyson, who brought the mechanics of the stars to those of us with minds that can’t quite grasp them. I watch his shows. I like his latest book. All in all, my favorite pop-science personality ever. That doesn’t mean I dismiss the accusations.

[realmirage]

17. Some people here will never accept the evidence

But those who are reading the article without bias can see the problem with his behavior toward an employee. You can’t do this shit at work.

And “at work” doesn’t just mean you’re in the work building. I can’t drive to a meeting with my assistant and as soon as we’re out of the building drive her to my house and get in my pajamas.

[JonLP24]

19. I agree

It is obvious based on every equal opportunity class I've been to.

[realmirage]

22. Every job shows sexual harassment warning videos

to its employees and every one I’ve seen would describe this as a violation.

[torius]

53. I've had many jobs

and none of them showed sexual harrassment videos that I know of except one, and they showed only to managers, and it was optional, because my boss said he was not going, and he didn't go.

[realmirage]

66. Maybe they figured it was common sense

or maybe sexual harassment goes unchecked at those places. Who knows. Should be common sense though.

[Cartoonist]

31. I missed that part about the pajamas

Oh, you just made that up. Shame on you.

[realmirage]

80. He was in his "undershirt."

That qualifies as pajamas. Why do I have to explain this shit?

[Cartoonist]

83. Not the same thing

Want me to explain the difference?
How old are you?

[LongtimeAZDem]

78. Except that the working relationship was ending, within a few days. There's no evidence at all

that he exerted any pressure on her.

She thought he wanted to talk about her continuing to work with him; he though he was inviting her over socially. She was uncomfortable and left, and when he found out she was upset, he apologized. She was offered the chance to file a complaint, and refused, and quit, since there was only a couple days left anyway.

[realmirage]

79. So if I'm switching jobs I can start going crazy at work?

She was still his employee and if she thought he was going to offer further employment then she obviously was interested in that since she went in. Either way she was still an employee and didn’t go into his place to socialize so that right there shows that what he did qualifies as sexual harassment.

[LongtimeAZDem]

81. She wasn't his employee, they worked for the same production company and the show was ending

In his words:

"I invited her to wine & cheese at my place upon dropping me off from work. No pressure. I serve wine & cheese often to visitors. And I even alerted her that others from the production were gathering elsewhere that evening, so she could just drop me off and head straight there or anywhere else. She freely chose to come by for wine & cheese and I was delighted."

If this is accurate (which is why we need an investigation), she should have realized that it wasn't business. She accepted the invitation of her own free will. She stated in the Washington Post interview that she was hoping to keep working with him when the next production started, which somewhat contradicts her other allegation that he was always making uncomfortable statements.

Regardless, he did nothing at all, except chat with her and give her a handshake that she thought was creepy, and say goodbye when she wanted to go. If his account is accurate, she accepted his apology when she told him that it had made her uncomfortable. She was offered the chance to file a complaint and refused. There's no harassment here, at all.

[realmirage]

82. She was his ASSISTANT. So yes he was her boss.

This is exactly what I meant when I said some people here won’t let themselves see the evidence for what it is. I’m moving on now from this conversation.

[Yavin4]

18. Did she decline his invitation? Did she tell him that she was uncomfortable at all?

If we're going to regulate every interaction between men and women, we'll have to return to the days of chapperones.

[realmirage]

20. You apparently don't understand sexual harassment laws

A boss can’t stop at his house and invite you in and then get in his undershirt and start hitting on you.

This shouldn’t have to be explained.

[Yavin4]

33. That's not sexual harassment.

If a superior approaches a subordinate, and the subordinate refuses the invitation and suffers on the job because of the refusal, that is sexual harassment. If the superior makes repeated, unwanted advances then that is sexual harassment.

Superiors and subordinates mutually engage in romantic partnerships all of the time on the job.

[oberliner]

40. Do you think he behaved appropriately?

[Yavin4]

45. I don't know all of the facts

and neither do you nor anyone else. A superior inviting a subordinate to dinner is not, on its face, sexual harassment.

[LBM20]

50. If she didn't feel comfortable going in for wine and cheese, she should have declined. Simple.

[mr_lebowski]

23. Is there such a thing as "Hetero Conversion Therapy"?

Cause I'm really starting to think I'd like to sign up and get treatment for this condition.

Wonder if it'd be covered by my health insurance ...

[Kingofalldems]

24. Any comments on Trump and this sexual assault:

Link to tweet

[BannonsLiver]

28. No, only progressives get this kind of treatment

And when one thread peters out, spam another one! That literally just happened.

[Kingofalldems]

30. Saw that.

[oberliner]

42. No one defends Trump or right-wingers who are accused of things

It's important to hold people we like to the same standard (or even a higher one).

[Kingofalldems]

47. With multiple OPs?

[oberliner]

41. Trump is a disgusting vile individual who needs to go away as soon as possible

Every day the woman who he obviously harassed sexually (or worse) ought to be interviewed and encouraged to continue telling their stories of the awful things he did.

[dsc]

60. I am pretty certain Trump assaulted women

but not this particular woman. Women can agree to be touched as she apparently did.

[eissa]

25. Is there anything he could have said

that would appease those who reflexively find the accused guilty? Let’s be honest, he’s already been judged.

[OnDoutside]

26. Of course not. The truth is irrelevant.

[BannonsLiver]

27. The OP was on the Franken railroad brigade within minutes of that story breaking

Called for his resignstion based entirely off right wing operative, Roger Stone confidant and Faux News babe LeeAnn Tweeden’s allegations. It was an instant judgement, even before the other questionable anonymous shit came out.

[OilemFirchen]

32. And Avenatti.

Who, to the best of my knowledge, has still not been charged with a damned thing.

[oberliner]

35. What are your feelings about Avenatti?

[OilemFirchen]

46. The same as my feelings about Red Buttons.

What are yours?

[Kingofalldems]

48. Looks like Avenatti was a big winner yesterday.

[oberliner]

34. That is a lie

Never once called for him to resign at any point.

[BannonsLiver]

37. Ah

[oberliner]

43. The people who called for him to resign were Kamala Harris, Elizabeth Warren, Cory Booker

And numerous other Democrats.

[LongtimeAZDem]

64. We need to dunk him in a vat of water. If he drowns, he's innocent. /nt

[Eric J in MN]

29. Based on what I've seen so far, I don't think he should be banned

...from hosting TV shows.

[oberliner]

36. That is a reasonable position

[LBM20]

49. Her perceptions may well not have been his INTENTIONS. I think his statement was good.

Enough of this guilty until proven innocent shit.

[oberliner]

55. Do you think his behavior was appropriate given the circumstances?

[torius]

52. hugging coworkers

habitually and with no apparent reason to could interpreted as creepy and as sexual harrassment as well.

[oberliner]

54. Has anyone come forward to make that assertion?

Namely, that they felt they had been sexually harassed by her?

[edhopper]

56. Have you even read

Tyson's response?

[oberliner]

57. Yes

That is why I am wondering if anyone has come forward to say that they felt "creeped out" or "sexually harassed" due to the hugs he mentions her giving in his statement (Tyson himself did not say that he felt they were creepy or constituted sexual harassment).

[edhopper]

58. Oh

I thought you were disputing that she gave hugs to everyone.

That's different.

[oberliner]

59. Sorry for the confusion

I tried to update my post to clarify but you had already responded.

[Hav]

62. Well, given the standard that is set

for a reason regarding behaviour from superiors towards other employees and given that her position makes her superior in position to many, I'm sure it would be seen as sexual harassment by some if she were a man. Because you know, they might not feel to be in a position to deny her requests or make a big fuss about it for fear of losing their job.

[oberliner]

68. If anyone felt they were sexually harassed as a result of the hugs, they have not made that known

Such as by reporting her behavior to a supervisor or to the company sexual harassment hotline. Or by speaking to her directly (which is what this woman did with respect to NDT).

If it is indeed the case that there were people who felt sexually harassed by her, then it should be taken into consideration by her future employers or anyone who wants to give her a television show.

[Hav]

71. It's still the same standard applied to her that we would apply

to other people in regards to the behaviour of people in power. Insisting on hugging people is strange, even more so when people decline that offer more than once. By your logic, there was no problem at all with Weinstein's behaviour until people came forward. I know that's extreme and I understand your argument but the point is in some cases (not Weinstein) it is hard to define when the line to sexual harassment is crossed in comparison to clumsy, slightly unusual/inappropriate behaviour.

[oberliner]

72. He is the one who being accused of sexual harassment, not her

I would also point out that NDT has made the assertion about her hugging people - she has not confirmed that was the case.

If this woman was also accused of sexual harassment, then I would think that claim should be similarly reviewed (or if someone came forward now to say that they felt sexually harassed by her hugs).

Reviewing the actions of NDT and determining if there was anything inappropriate about them can occur regardless.

It is certainly possible that he behaved inappropriately towards her and that she behaved inappropriately to others - those would not be mutually exclusive conclusions to reach.

[treestar]

77. maybe he should accuse her

you seem all for letting people get away with it so long as the victim fails to complain. Some people might feel too intimidated to even report it.

[LongtimeAZDem]

73. Perhaps they were embarassed to say so /nt

[oberliner]

74. Yes, perhaps so

I am not sure how that is relevant to evaluating the actions by NDT though, about which someone did raise a complaint.

[treestar]

76. It wouldn't be just to do without an objective standard

It is totally subjective if just based on who feels that way. Different people could feel differently about the same thing.

And your underlings should not be able to sexually harass you either. The position of power does not mean everyone in one would want to just fire someone for sexually harassing them. And they can go over your head, possibly.

[torius]

65. No, that was not my point.

My point was about interpreting what others do. Her boundaries could be a little outside the norm, which could cause her to interpret others' behavior as far as boundaries differently than that person might have intended. It also could be projection. She is going around touching people who didn't ask her to, but says he is. If someone accused her of having bad motives in the hugging, she would probably be shocked.

[oberliner]

69. I understand your point

Each situation can be evaluated. If there was a situation where someone reported her behavior to a supervisor, spoke to her about it saying they felt creeped out, and reported it to a sexual harassment hotline, then those things ought to be taken into consideration by her future employers.

[LisaL]

75. I am curious.

If a man was repeatedly offering hugs to his co-worker, even after being declined, would you be saying the same thing? Do you think it's appropriate behavior at work to keep offering hugs even after your co-worker declines you previous offers of hugs?

[EffieBlack]

61. This has you pretty worked up for some reason, doesn't it, Boo?

The upside is that whenever I see one of your OPs about Neil deGrasse Tyson (how many are you up to now?) or other cases involving certain people, I know even before looking that it's from you - and as you know, your posts always make my day!

[betsuni]

63. *snort*

[oberliner]

70. Yes, thank you for understanding

I appreciate your response as this is something that really does get me worked up, as it has some personal resonance for me. I know that there are particular issues that are personal for you as well, so I am not surprised to read this warm message of support and emojis of camaraderie. Much gratitude.