If Trump is somehow impeached and removed, and we are left with Pence....

[A HERETIC I AM]

We will have jumped out of the frying pan and into the fire, as the idiom goes.

Trump is a criminal, a malignant narcissist and a dangerous nitwit to be sure, and while Pence is none of these, he is worse.

Pence is the absolute dream of hard right, evangelical and bible literalist Christians in this country.

He is the kind of person that thinks this country should be ruled by and for straight, white christian men, and them alone, and would shove, perhaps irretrievably, this country toward a theocracy.


Trump needs to be done away with, of that I have no doubt. But if Pence doesn't go with him, Trump needs to stay in office, let the House hobble everything he wants to do for the next 2 years and then vote the two of them out.

We must keep Mike Pence as far away from the reins of power as possible.

[zeusdogmom]

1. Absolutly agree

[manor321]

2. Pence has no following. He's weak. For that reason, he's better.

[YessirAtsaFact]

4. Hopefully Pence isn't compromised by Putin the Saudi's etc.

If he isn't compromised, he won't be the danger to national security that Trump currently is.

He would still suck as a president.

[A HERETIC I AM]

9. I was inclined to agree with that a year ago,

but after seeing how the Republican Senate have allowed Trump to get away with what he has, I have no confidence they will restrain Pence in any way.

He may be weak, but he is a politician, through and through.

And that makes him just as dangerous, if not more so, to progress than Trump is.

[Kaleva]

15. Trump has a fanatical following which gives him leverage in dealing with Repubs in Congress

Pence doesn't have that.

[A HERETIC I AM]

24. I think you're mistaken.

There is a significant number of the American electorate that simply can not wait for the second coming. Christianity is the ultimate death cult and the end of the world is something they look forward to. While they may think Trump might usher it in, they are SURE Pence will.

And I think he will do his best to accommodate them.

[JI7]

28. nope. those people are not large in numbers. most christian fundies are racist porn addicts

they would be scared of pence taking away their porn.

[Kaleva]

33. I lurk at FR often and Pence is a non-person even among the religious there.

Trump is their Messiah.

[jodymarie aimee]

3. Mueller hinted Pence is going to be

indicted..DU post from Thursday...so don't worry...

[former9thward]

12. No Mueller has not.

[jodymarie aimee]

14. here you go sweet pea..they don't get any better than Jill Wine Banks...

Jill Wine-Banks
‏Verified account @JillWineBanks

Opinion & speculation from a left-leaning but factually accurate source: Mueller Hints That Mike Pence May Be Indicted Soon https://www.politicususa.com/2018/12/06/mueller-hints-that-mike-pence-may-be-indicted-soon.html … via @politicususa

[former9thward]

16. One of the stupidest articles I have read on this subject.

There is not a word in the article which actually quotes the sentencing memo to back her speculation. And the article is wrong on the few facts that are mentioned. Flynn was not charged with "illegal activities in Russia" as the article says. He was charged with lying to the FBI. It is false to say Mueller has hinted at anything.

Some people are so invested in previous predictions they have made in this case they are wildly speculating on any filing that is made.

[onenote]

42. thank you for pointing that out

Politicsusa likes clickbait headlines-and that article is a good example.

[marylandblue]

34. It's all based on Pence being in charge of the transition

But just because he was nominally in charge doesn't mean he really knew what was going on. And I think there were things he didn't want to know, so he stayed out of certain conversations.

[TreasonousBastard]

5. We have never, ever, even thought about firing both the Prez and the VP, and...

if Pence goes, the Speaker moves up.

Don't think for a second that the Senate would let that happen without one hell of a fight. One that they would probably win.

If Pence does take over, even with the help of the new evangelical AG, we just have to work to see he doesn't cause too much damage in two years.

And, really, how could he do worse than this asshole has?

[MichMan]

36. Can't count how many people have posted here thinking both could be impreached together...

….usually followed by some scenario where Pelosi becomes President, names Hillary as VP, and then resigns.

[TreasonousBastard]

39. Dreaming, all of them. But, going back to Nixon (again!)...

Agnew resigned and Ford stepped in.

It's not beyond the realm of possibility that Pence resigning could be engineered to eliminate his possible (just barely possible) impeachment and let some mild, neutral type take over.

But, since it's almost impossible to see Pence being impeached, why should they bother?

[rockfordfile]

6. I don't agree

Both are the same. What makes you think that if Trump is still there he will be voted out? I mean the fact is he should be impeached and Congress didn't do anything. Then he runs and says, "well if what I did was bad why didn't they impeach me?"

[Ford_Prefect]

7. Pence was an insider from the day he signed on.

He thoroughly believes in the Dick Cheney theory of activist VP engagement. He was surely aware of everything during the transition. He would have to be as coordinator.

I am certain that one of the inducements offered him by Manafort was the chance to play in the big pool. A very good reason to have him on board and inside the knowing circle would be to make sure he was under control.

[think4yourself]

8. Pence is in up to his eyeballs.

He plays innocent but he was very much involved.

[Caliman73]

10. I think Pence will have his own problems if elevated.

He has not been a primary target of the investigation, but I don't think that he is clean in this situation. He was in charge of the Transition team. He was Paul Manafort's pick to be VP when Trump was leaning toward someone else.

Plus, The GOP will be severely weakened by the exercise and will be under much scrutiny on this. Pence will be like Gerald Ford in this scenario.

[George II]

11. Pence will go down, too. Remember, he headed up the transition team, which has been....

....documented to have most of the contact with Russians. And Mueller is too smart to not make the connection between Manafort and Pence, i.e. he hand picked him.

If they don't get Pence, his "administration" will be as castrated as Gerald Ford's was after Nixon resigned.

[smirkymonkey]

38. +1000

This. I think Pence will be a complete lame duck once Trump is gone. The party is already thinking of throwing him over. He has no following or any personal power. He's toast.

[marylandblue]

13. "Trump is a malignant narcissist." That's important.

Malignant narcissists are the worst people in the world. They have no limits, no filters. They are almost impossible to control. The House can block Pence easier than it can block Trump. Pence will, at a minimum, follow some rules. Trump follows no rules and would commit unspeakable crimes if he thought he could get away with it. Trump is not just for straight, white, Christian men. He is for straight, white, Christian, racist, criminal, sadistic men.

[Andy823]

18. Exactly

Everything you said is true. My brother in laws wife is a female version of trump. She does what she wants, lies, slanders others, and it's all about getting her way, and nobody can change her. I don't want Pence anymore than I wanted trump, but like you said, he will most likely follow the rules, unlike trump who thinks he is a god and nobody can tell him what to do, because he thinks he is above the law.

[Autumn]

17. Agree! I would rather keep the tanned twerp in office than Pence.

The Republicans can use Pence to "normalize" themselves. Fuck that, Trump is their face

[TheCowsCameHome]

19. Remove one festering boil at a time,

that's how we get the job done.

Chill. Pence is as dull as dried paint. He has '0' charisma.

[BannonsLiver]

21. He was probably going to lose in 2016 had Donnie not rescued him

That’s why the OPs view is a bit off the mark. Here he was a far RWNJ in a state that loves them and he was unpopular. He’s a terrible politician.

[TheCowsCameHome]

23. Absolutely. He was going down in his home state.

DJT hauled him out of the sure-to-be ashes.

[regnaD kciN]

20. Pence would be far easier to defeat in 2020, and to counter until then...

First off, he's a politician who recognizes "the rules of the game." He can and has backed down - for example, as governor of Indiana, when an anti-LGBT law from his wishlist drew a lot of flak, he himself had the most objectionable parts of it removed. Trump, on the other hand, is a CEO who believes his word is law and that anyone who differs must be crushed like a bug to set an example. If Pence became President, particularly with a Democratic House, he'd be forced to seek compromise or simply get nothing done.

Plus, and here's the big one, Pence totally lacks the "ordinary-guy billionaire" persona Trump has spent years constructing, and which is a key part of his appeal. By contrast, Pence seems every bit the buttoned-down politician. MAGA types like Trump because he "breaks the rules"; it's hard to see them working up the same fervor for a guy who needs his "mommy's" supervision to meet with women on work projects. I just don't see anyone but the ultra-evangelical being moved to turn out for a Pence re-election campaign; and he certainly would have a near-impossible time cobbling together the same kind of Electoral College win as Trump did in 2016.

And do I even need to mention that a President Pence would be far less-likely to call out the troops and try to remain in power if (more like when) he loses? Whereas, with Trump, I find it a very real possibility.

So, despite the "out of the frying pan, into the fire" rhetoric of some, I'd be delighted with a Pence presidency in lieu of Trump, because he'd do far less potential damage and be easier to beat next time around. If that's the only choice until 2020, bring it on!

[IllinoisBirdWatcher]

22. Exactly like the Nixon era...

The issue with Nixon was how to first get rid of Agnew.

I remember as if it were yesterday when my law professor (who was very involved in DC politics) told us in one class that nothing would be done about Nixon until Agnew was removed first.

October 10, 1973 - Agnew no contest plea and resignation as VP
October 12, 1973 - Ford nominated as VP
November 27, 1973 - Ford confirmed by Senate
February 6, 1974 - Nixon impeachment begun

History repeats itself?

[elocs]

25. "Trump is somehow impeached and removed, and we are left with Pence"

That would be the Law of Unintended Consequences striking again.
The bigger question should be, how many angels can dance of the head of a pin?

[A HERETIC I AM]

27. 7

I counted.

It's seven.

[Atticus]

26. Impeach Pence first! nt

[Rob H.]

29. I think Pence would have a lock on the RW fundagelical bloc, too

Conservative evangelicals voted for Trump in huge numbers despite his divorces, adultery, racism, homophobia, and bragging about sexually assaulting women, so why wouldn’t they fall in line behind the outwardly strait-laced Pence? A Pence presidency would let Republicans put a happy face on hatred, which makes him dangerous: the packaging is different, but the same underlying evil is still there.

[walkingman]

30. Jesusworld would have an orgasm with Pence. God help us.

[FiveGoodMen]

43. God has proven that he won't help us.

Only the absence of god will help.

[mucifer]

31. We probably would be at less of a risk for nuclear war. Other than that it would be the same.

he would appoint evil people and destroy all that is good . he just wouldn't be a bully about it.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

32. Pence would be an immediate lame duck and tainted goods.

He won’t be able to get the stink of Trump off of him if he wanted to.

While I don’t think he’ll be indicted, there will be enough lingering questions about the Trussia matter that it will haunt him if he runs in 2020. It could get so bad he might not even win the nomination.

So yes, absolutely get rid of Trump, who’s a madman and a criminal the likes of which we’ve never seen in the White House before. I’m more than happy to deal with Pence.

[LonePirate]

35. The army of deplorables are not loyal to Pence, though.

The party will disintegrate under him as he cannot hold the base like 45 does.

[emulatorloo]

40. Agreed. He has the charisma of a sack of potatoes, and the Trump cultists won't embrace him

I get tired of “President Pence” being used as an excuse to not hold Trump accountable.

[Garrett78]

37. As confident as I am about Trump losing in 2020, I'd be even more confident if Pence were POTUS.

Cult45 wouldn't show up for Pence the way they show up for dear leader. This is the same reason I'm sure Trump will crush anyone who tries to primary him, which is not to say I wouldn't welcome Kasich or some other Republican making the effort.

All of this assumes Trump doesn't resign before the 2020 election, which is not an assumption I'm willing to make. I'm torn. Will he resign and protect his ego with "I've done what I wanted to do and will now return to running my vast empire" or some such bullshit? Or will he lose in 2020 and claim that the election was rigged, encouraging his supporters to take up arms?

[progressoid]

41. My LGBTQ friends despise Pence.

Just had a conversation with someone about this very subject. On a scale from 1 to 10, her hatred for Trump goes to 10. And her hatred for Pence goes to eleven.