General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsA country doesn't have to be an enemy for your dealings to be trason
One of the Pundits on CNN seemed to have that part wrong.
treason
n. the crime of betraying one's country, defined in Article III, section 3 of the U.S. Constitution: "Treason against the United States shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort." Treason requires overt acts and includes the giving of government security secrets to other countries, even if friendly, when the information could harm American security. Treason can include revealing to an antagonistic country secrets such as the design of a bomber being built by a private company for the Defense Department. Treason may include "espionage" (spying for a foreign power or doing damage to the operation of the government and its agencies, particularly those involved in security) but is separate and worse than "sedition," which involves a conspiracy to upset the operation of the government.
https://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=2153
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Crimes against the US are SOLELY defined in 18 USC.
"Treason" is as follows:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2381
18 U.S. Code § 2381 - Treason
Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.
--------
That online law dictionary (or wherever that text came from) is not at all consistent with the actual definition of the crime of treason under US law.
The Constitution contains a broad authorization for such a crime to be defined but does not, by itself, act as the operative definition of the offense.
Hermit-The-Prog
(33,342 posts)The Constitution defines the crime but leaves Congress to define the punishment. Congress did so in the U.S. Code you cite, but further limited the crime of treason by the definition of "enemy".
See:
Article III
Section 3
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.
The Congress shall have power to declare the punishment of treason, but no attainder of treason shall work corruption of blood, or forfeiture except during the life of the person attainted.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/articleiii#section3
Quixote1818
(28,930 posts)Because of this history, a lot of things that might seem or feel like treason to casual observers do not, in fact, come close. In this context enemies, for example, must be countries against which Congress has formally declared war or otherwise authorized the use of force. (So contemporary Russia is out, whatever role it may have played in the 2016 election.) Even during the height of the Cold War, when Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were tried, convicted and executed for conveying nuclear secrets to the Soviet Union, the charge against them was espionage, not treason.
https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/americans-have-forgotten-what-treason-actually-means-how-it-can-ncna848651
Lock him up.
(6,928 posts)"their enemies" actually shooting or bombing, or should it specify "at war" (as in cyberattacks)?
Codeine
(25,586 posts)thusly;
(2) the term enemy means any country, government, group, or person that has been engaged in hostilities, whether or not lawfully authorized, with the United States;
And hostilities as follows;
(9)The term hostilities means any conflict subject to the laws of war.
Lock him up.
(6,928 posts)the term "hostilities" because a hostile foreign power (a group: (Russian troll farm) and a person (Vladimir Putin)) have waged illegal intrusions (with Cyber Attacks) in order to manupulate the electoral institutions for installing their compromized assets.
An urgent "update" to the term "hostilities" (or the laws of war) is needed.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)Democrats_win
(6,539 posts)Yes, Malcolm Nance has often explained the legal definition, but nonetheless, this is treason. We know it when we see it.
(Apologies to Justice Potter Stewart who said,"I know it when I see it," in relation to hard-core porn movies and the legal definition.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it
triron
(22,001 posts)Codeine
(25,586 posts)has on one hand a VERY specific legal meaning (seriously, its one if the most narrowly-defined laws around) and in discussions of such that meaning should be hewed to quite closely, but it also has a colloquial meaning that transcends the strict legal confines of the word.
Im happy to consider the Tangerine Idi Amin to be a traitor in the colloquial sense, but I wont pretend hes committed actual treason in any legal sense. Probably espionage is an applicable crime, which is just as serious.
Quixote1818
(28,930 posts)Wondering now that I have discovered my OP is wrong if I should delete it? However it has created some interesting discussions.
Codeine
(25,586 posts)It generated a less-heated and more-informative discussion than any of its brethren did.
pecosbob
(7,538 posts)Two different things? Perhaps why Judge Sullivan walked back his remarks...
Quixote1818
(28,930 posts)https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/made-by-history/wp/2018/07/18/donald-trump-didnt-commit-treason-in-helsinki-but-his-actions-are-impeachable-anyway/?utm_term=.36042bfdc9e7
However, I am a bit confused by the article because treachery is not a US law: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treachery_(law)