Major argument at my house

[Aerows]

I'm pretty much in tears.

My family members were like "well, they choose to be where the wildfires are".

I endured that during Katrina and knew how painful that was. I don't even know what to say. It makes tears roll down my face that those who endured such suffering don't care about anybody else.

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. Hugs, we need to change a general culture

where empathy becomes a value. We used to have it.

[Aerows]

26. We do

Thanks for the hug, Nadin.

[BlueNinja]

68. Totally agree!

It amazes me how malignant narcissism has become an American value these days.

[Aerows]

2. I spoke up

and was yelled at, cursed at, and all the like. It's sad. We WERE Colorado during the forest fires a few years ago, but they forget.

[DiverDave]

66. Man I mean, it woulda been ON

If someone EVER curses me or my family.
I wont stand for it.
It's mean and degrading and I apologize to you that you had to go through it.

I have NEVER allowed anyone in my hearing to browbeat anyone, even people I dont know.

My wife thinks I'm a lunatic, but dang it, we MUST have some values!

I'm sorry you had to go through it.
Stand up and refuse to be browbeaten, most of all by people who should "love" you.

[avebury]

3. Nobody chooses to be in a wild fire area.

There was a wild fire not that long ago is is alleged to have been intentionally set. The homeowners impacted by the fire certainly didn't ask for it. Wild fires can occur just about anywhere.

[Aerows]

4. Nobody chooses to be in a hurricane ground zero

But we were.

How could you be so insensitive as to suggest other people deserved it via a wildfire?

[avebury]

37. Did you even read my comment? I never said that people

choose to live in a wild fire area as wild fires can occur any place at anytime. And some people are victim to wildfires either due to arson or carelessness. My comment related only to the subject wildfires.

[Aerows]

40. I did, I think you thought I was being harsh

But no, I agreed with you. Anyone can be a victim of bad circumstance at any time, my friend. My apologies if I sounded harsh Thank you for your reply.

[DonRedwood]

5. :0) then write a new OP with an impassioned plea for some help for the victims

with some good links for donations and then you will actually make a difference instead of just feeling bad.

:0) you do the homework and i'll donate 5 bucks and maybe a few others will and...well, you know how those snowball things go....

[Aerows]

7. Sorry, I just got freaked out that my own family

wouldn't recognize people that were victims of a natural disaster, then pass them off as though I was an evil human for equating to what happened in our area.

I will, hopefully. And you are right, I should. I have some experience with surviving in a horrifically devastated area.

[DonRedwood]

56. I sometimes think that some people can only take so much stress and worry

people who can take more stress and worry and carry more weight accept responsibility for their neighbors, for their countrymen. The step forward when others step back.

And some people can only handle a smaller world. Perhaps the worry they feel for their own life uses up all the worry space they have. They can't worry about someone else because they just simply can't take on more?

I say this to rationalize and try to give you some other angles to look at--to find something that will make you feel better.

But there are studies now that show that compassion is not the same in everybody. I personally can't stand to see a living thing being neglected when I know darn good and well that I could have helped. I water plants in other people's houses when I see something wilting. The other day at the store I took a plant over to the sink and watered it. I felt kind of silly but that plant really needed some water.

My partner and I give on Kiva when we can and make donations when we see some part of the world that really needs some help. We never have a lot but we have given up on saving everyone and we go with the knowledge that lumped together with all the other $5 and $10 donations, it adds up to a lot of blankets and food for needy people.

I know some heartless people. I am flabbergasted by their attitude as well but all you can do is be the light to that dark. I figure we are all here to balance something out that is opposite of us. I hope you feel better about this soon.

[BlueNinja]

69. You're on to something there about stress and worry.

My Uncle for instance seems to be on the verge of a nervous breakdown and can't seem to handle...well, anything other than going to work, which is a miserable hellhole, and cleaning his house, which he does in an over-compensating OCD sort of way. In general he's on the right side of issues, but he didn't vote in the last election which pissed me off of course but I'm trying to, as you said, have more compassion. I get why he, and so many other people, is the way he is. Too many people are trapped in a situation where they are preoccupied with just trying to survive financially and mentally in a world that is just so screwed up. The fact that many feel powerless in the face of such dysfunction doesn't help. I don't know what the answer is, but encouraging compassion is at least a start.

[WiffenPoof]

8. Your Story...

...is part of a much larger change in attitude that I have been witnessing for the last few years.

After the Katrina disaster, my right-wing sister called to tell me a joke. It went something like this: Do you know why so many black people died during Katrina? No, I said. Because they don't know how to swim.

I was so angry and I told her so...I explained that her "joke" was insensitive and ignorant. She got all over my case saying that I simply took things way too seriously.

I don't know what to say to people anymore. I truly feel like I'm lost in a world that has changed so much that I no longer recognize it.

(sigh)

-P

[Aerows]

16. We suffered as white people

along with our black neighbors, our latino friends and everyone else. It shocks me that 6 years later we forget and are so callous, as though we don't remember that it was our land that was inhospitable.

It makes me sick, and in tears, actually, that when we struggled so much, now there are people that say, oh well, you aren't as virtuous as we are - you deserve it.

We are Americans, and it breaks my heart.

Katrina did things to our community to draw us together, and I hope that they will never be broken apart by statements by people that want to fragment it.

[DiverDave]

67. I wanted to quit my job and go to nolans

I couldnt, I did talk to my boss about possibly getting half pay while gone.
Nope, he didnt see the 'angle'.
I told him I simply could not stand by while people suffered.
I drive a truck and the Red Cross was asking for driver volunteers.

I'm ashamed to say I didnt quit and go anyway.

Keep your head up.

Dave

[a la izquierda]

9. Ugh, I'm sorry.

I was born into half of a conservative family (mom's side), and married into one too. I face comments like this- uncaring "they should've done this, or they shouldn't have done that"- all the time.
I don't know how you feel, because although I lived in tornado alley, I never suffered any major damage. But I know that fear. And I know what it's like for people to say "Well, you shouldn't live there if you don't want to deal with it."

I'm sorry you have to hear such crappy comments.

[Aerows]

19. Same thing, though, I'm sure

"You shouldn't be there"

While you couldn't be elsewhere. It just angered me for a number of reasons. My sister lives in tornado alley (OK). If she gets blown away will it be divine intervention? It's just stupidity. There is nowhere to be without risk.

[a la izquierda]

31. I lived in Oklahoma for 8 years.

I miss it terribly, which is a totally weird thing for a liberal to say- especially for one who did not grow up there (I grew up in the NY Metro area).

[Aerows]

35. There is a beauty to it

I've only been a few times each year, but I did enjoy it . Winter is rather harsh, but I like snow, being nearly unable to see it in the South . I love snow because I have been so deprived of it .

EDIT: It was like -5 and every thing was freezing to death. Including my sister failing to control her car.

Still fun. I was so grateful to get inside though.

[Aerows]

39. Well, if you ever miss it too much

and OKC, we can throw snowballs at each other during winter as some point

I have dibs on the fort that lobs tremendous globs of snow at you, while you have the fort that lobs an endless pile of snowballs

[a la izquierda]

64. Sounds great to me...but I think I might make better snowballs in Ohio...

that's where I am now.

Hopefully I'll be back to see my Sooners play...preferably before next year's tornado season. Last year's was pretty wild.

[lunatica]

10. Aerows, you came to the right place to find empathy

There's the family you have and then there's the family you choose.

[Aerows]

27. Thank you

I needed a hug

[Lone_Star_Dem]

11. Oh, my heart goes out to you!

It really does. Been there done that, and have the emotional scars to show for it.

I sat through an out of town family member becoming unhinged over another family member saying they were looking into adopting an orphaned child after the earthquake in Haiti. This unhinged family member said they should "pull themselves up on their own" like she did after her house flooded due to heavy rains from a hurricane. She said, " I ripped my carpet out myself" I pointed out she still had a functioning support system in her country. She wasn't hurt, didn't have to deal with an outbreak of disease, starvation or lack of functioning medical care. Oh, and she also had FEMA to help pay for her repairs.

She said it was still their fault.

[Aerows]

28. I know ... I went through Katrina

it was "Divine Intervention" that we were spared. Yes, we worked our asses off, but I would never view another community as deserving of such a hard row. And then to say the people should move elsewhere? Uh, we stayed. Not a goddamned thing moved us. Why do you advocate that others are living in a place any more hostile than we are? That offends the shit out of me.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

32. Their mindset is skewed.

My sincere respect for you having had to endure Katrina.

My relative I spoke of went through Rita. It was the one where she sustained damage. Yet, she was dismissive of the suffering of those who went through Katrina. For people like this there's something seriously wrong in their mental wiring. They believe they're entitled to social services, and even charity when they've a need. Yet other people are somehow responsible for all disasters which befall them.

I can't explain why. I don't understand where their thought process originates from. I just know you're not alone in witnessing their lack of critical thinking and empathy.

The most relevant part of what I said is, you are not alone. It's an all too common manifestation now.

[renie408]

34. "People like this" not only have something seriously wrong with their mental wiring...

they have their own political party to help force their psychosis on the rest of us.

[Aerows]

43. I will make it my mission to keep their psychotic agenda

from infecting us all, if I, a mere person can do so. They have twisted too many things, and I refuse to stand by while they make Americans look at each other and say, during a tragedy, well, you should move. This is our country. All of us are responsible for our brothers and sisters.

[Aerows]

42. I do not understand lack of empathy

When you have gone through the hard road of rebuilding yourself, my friend, Lone. It is amazing that people cannot witness it themselves and say "we were in that state", and worse, can say " well they deserve it."

That offends me on such a level after having endured it, that I cannot but stand up and scream. Or worse, it makes me want to cry. Because you do plenty of that when you lose everything, too.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

48. I can't wrap my head around it either.

That's what sets us apart from them on a level which we cannot bridge.

I cannot understand how someone could be dismissive of another persons needs during a disaster. Yet, some people are. They're lacking that small bit of empathy, or compassion, to do anything more than feel superior it's not them.

Where I live we have massive flash flooding, wildfires and tornadoes. What should I do, move? I can't afford to. Reality is, these horrific events are more often happening all over the place now. Where would I even go?

People who say things like our family members know if something happens to them, we'd still be there to help. In the mean time they're gambling it won't happen to them so they can continue to feel superior.

How sad is that?

[Aerows]

45. "you are not alone" is the best part, Lone_Star :) n/t

[Lone_Star_Dem]

53. We're going to come out the other side if this insanity fine.

We just have to remember there are other kind, compassionate people in this country.

I'm my experience it's too easy to let the bad stuff I hear from others weigh me down. It's important to know others are going through it too.

[reflection]

12. I forget what it's called

but there's a recognized mindset many people have that others' misfortunes are a result of bad choices they made and that it would never happen to *them*, because they are smarter than that.

I'm sure some DUer knows what it is and will elaborate. It's a coping mechanism for your fears. You hear about something happening to someone else, and you get scared. "Could that happen to me? Of course not, I'm much too smart to let that happen. Whew, that was close."

[drmeow]

14. Attribution bias

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attributional_bias

[renie408]

17. I don't think so.

Something else is floating around in my head, but I cannot remember what the actual name is. I read all the descriptions of the different biases under the 'attribution bias' heading and none of them represent the need some people have to blame a person's problems on that person's choices. And there is a name for it, but DAMN I can't remember it to save my life.

[reflection]

20. I may have been thinking

of the just-world hypothesis, but I'm not sure...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis

If you folks can't figure it out then it's your own fault for being so stupid!

[renie408]

23. That's it!

It is the tendency to think that people 'get what they deserve'. Therefore, if something bad happens to someone, they earned it somehow. They 'chose' to live in a dangerous area, they brought it on themselves.

I have heard it as the Just World Fallacy. Thanks! That was bugging me.

[drmeow]

22. Defense attribution bias

The defensive attribution hypothesis (or defensive attribution bias) is a social psychological term from the attributional approach referring to a set of beliefs held by an individual with the function of defending the individual from concern that they will be the cause or victim of a mishap. Commonly, defensive attributions are made when individuals witness or learn of a mishap happening to another person. In these situations, attributions of responsibility to the victim or harm-doer for the mishap will depend upon the severity of the outcomes of the mishap and the level of personal and situational similarity between the individual and victim. More responsibility will be attributed to the harm-doer as the outcome becomes more severe, and as personal or situational similarity decreases. Holding the victim or harm-doer more responsible allows the individual to believe that the mishap was controllable and thus, the individual is able to prevent suffering the same mishap in the future.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_attribution_hypothesis

It is a type of attribution bias. There may be another slang or vernacular term for it but from a psychology perspective it is a type of attribution bias.

It is also a form of blaming the victim.

[reflection]

24. That might be it.

The name doesn't sound familiar, but the bias definition sure does. Thanks.

[renie408]

25. This is close, but seems to be about issues between two people.

What I am reading is that Defense Attribution bias is a person's tendency to either blame the victim or the perpetrator depending on their level of personal similarity to the victim.

"More responsibility will be attributed to the harm-doer as the outcome becomes more severe, and as personal or situational similarity decreases."

What I was thinking about was the Just World Fallacy. That is the tendency to think that the world is a just place, and therefore people get what they deserve through their actions. "Your house burned down? Well, you are the one that chose to live there." "You were raped? You must have been acting provocatively." It stems from some people's inability to deal with an arbitrary world where good and bad things happen for no reason. So does religion, BTW.

[Aerows]

46. Interesting, thank you

I have a few quibbles with it, particularly that severity of outcomes have anything to do with it in certain experiences, because I think they would be the same regardless, but fascinating .

Thank you.

[Aerows]

33. I don't know if there is a formal name for it

But it's just "blame others" and they get stuck on that. Anything larger than themselves gets stuck on "blame somebody else", while localized blame they can sometimes manage themselves.

[XemaSab]

52. Calvinism?

[n2doc]

13. No place is 'safe'

Windstorm, flood, mudslide, drought, fire, tornado, etc. I don't know where you live but every place has risks. Perhaps your relatives should think about how they would feel if they were on the short end. But really, isn't helping people we don't know supposedly a hallmark of our uniqueness?

[Aerows]

49. We aren't safe, n2doc

How many hurricanes do we have to go through?

And that is what makes me so pissed that they couldn't see. We lived through Katrina, and they dare to lecture people going through a wildfire?

Hypocrisy that I can't stomach.

[renie408]

18. ...what's your hurry.

Hey, man, I gotta give it to you. You're no quitter.

[reflection]

21. Ooh! A new one. Let's play with it! n/t

[HanzG]

41. Spam deleted by pinto (MIR Team)

[JorgTurk]

47. Spam deleted by pinto (MIR Team)

[Tom Ripley]

50. Look ma, no Hanz!

Fuck off

[JurganTite]

60. Spam deleted by hlthe2b (MIR Team)

[Tom Ripley]

62. Auf Wiedersehen

[Cleita]

29. I've lived in wild fire territory all my life and I find

that a really insensitive thing to say on account of the fact that no matter where you choose to live there will be some venue of nature that could get you. It doesn't matter if it's floods, earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, avalanches, volcanoes erupting or tidal waves and I could go on and on. There really is no place that is safe from the elements. So you choose to live someplace and try to prepare the best you can for a disaster you know could happen, but sometimes there isn't a whole lot you can do in the end but hope to survive a cataclysm.

[Aerows]

55. But best of all

You love it, you love your neighbors, and you brace for it if it happens.

If it doesn't, you still love your neighbors, and the place where you live.

[Cleita]

57. Amen, and you help your neighbors and they

help you when bad things happen. Been through some earthquakes and fires and I know this is true.

[FLyellowdog]

30. Similar situation only with my dearest friend.

She's a fence-sitter when it comes to politics. On this night she was on the GOP side saying that people on welfare are there simply because of the choices they made and that all welfare should be stopped. In other words, they should help themselves.

At that particular time my daughter was 30 days away from losing her house and my grandkids being officially homeless. They would certainly have had to apply for federal/state aid, and I couldn't stop the heated argument that ensued with my friend. I cried uncontrollably because I felt her views on Welfare were personal attacks me and my family. It broke my heart.

How can any member of humankind think it is right to keep help from those who need it?

Anyway, we got around it, and we made up, but somehow that crack in my heart is still there. Although we are still dear friends, I'm afraid that she has an uncaring soul and I don't think I'll forget that. (Thankfully, my daughter saved her home with the help of Obama's stand against foreclosures. I love my president.)

I hope your family situation improves. Thoughts are with you.

[Mac1949]

38. My heart goes out to you.

Been there, done that. There are times when all you can do or feel is what you know is right, even if loved ones can't see it. From my view, there's at least one spiritually evolved person in your family, and I think they're pretty cool.

[dflprincess]

44. Someone will have to tell me what part of the country (or world for that matter)

is not at risk for some kind of natural disaster. Floods, tornados, earthquakes, hurricanes, blizzards, fire - where has something like that never happened?

[XemaSab]

54. +100,000

n/t

[Generic Brad]

51. Blaming the victims, are they?

I have gone through similar things with my family. It is heartbreaking to hear those we love talk like that.

[XemaSab]

58. When I lived in Oakland

I had to worry about earthquakes, wildfires, and landslides.

When I lived in Mill Valley I had to worry about earthquakes, wildfires, and landslides.

When I lived in Sacramento I had to worry about floods.

When I lived in LA I had to worry about earthquakes.

When I lived in Arcata I had to worry about earthquakes, tsunamis, and landslides.

When I lived in Oakhurst I had to worry about wildfires.

When I lived in Santa Barbara I had to worry about earthquakes, tsunamis, and wildfires.

Now I live in Redding and I have to worry about earthquakes, wildfires, volcanoes, and Shasta Dam failing. (Or all four at once! )

I'm happy that I have never had to worry about hurricanes and tornadoes, but everywhere you live it's something.

Sorry your relatives are jerks.

[Aerows]

61. The best thing Katrina woke me up to

was what it was like living in a third world country. I had no running water, no electricity, and no cell phones for a sustained period of time. I bathed in a lake with my Nexxus shampoo and conditioner, because there was no running water, but my friend had a horse pond.

First bath in a week, and best bath for two more. This was not a vacation, and the Red Cross came rolling by during week three asking if we needed water. If we needed them by that point, we would have been dead.

By that time, we had become rather self sufficient, but we still depended on things like MREs and ice. 3 weeks of people that are city people that suddenly have become campers/troops.

And it was August and hot as hell. You can't imagine. But I still breath. Some days I wonder how we made it through that - so to hear someone say, build elsewhere?

[eridani]

65. Jeez--where in bloody hell are people supposed to live?

Stay out of earthquake zones =everyone move out of CA, OR. AK and WA
Stay out of tornado zones = everyone move out of the Midwest and South
Stay out of wildfire zones = everyone move out of the interior west
Stay out of hurricane zones = everyone move out out the east coast and the Gulf coast.

Not much room left for the whole population of the country.