BREAKING: Statement from Lt. Governor Justin Fairfax

[brooklynite]

I’d like to begin by emphasizing how important it is for us to listen to women when they come forward with allegations of sexual assault or harassment. As a former prosecutor and someone who is close with a number of women who are survivors of sexual assault, I know that many survivors of sexual assault suffer in silence, and it is absolutely essential to their healing and our healing as a culture that we give all survivors the space and support to voice their stories.

Regarding the allegation that has been made against me – while this allegation has been both surprising and hurtful, I also recognize that no one makes charges of this kind lightly, and I take it and this situation very seriously.

This has been an emotional couple of days for me and my family. And in my remarks on Monday, I think you could hear how emotional dealing with an allegation that I know is not true has been for me.

As I have stated previously, fifteen years ago, when I was an unmarried law student, I had a consensual encounter with the woman who made the allegation. At no time did she express to me any discomfort or concern about our interactions, neither during that encounter, nor during the months following it, when she stayed in touch with me, nor the past fifteen years. She in no way indicated that anything that had happened between us made her uncomfortable.

The first indication I had that she felt that anything that had happened between us fifteen years ago made her uncomfortable was when I was contacted by a national media organization shortly before my inauguration in 2018. I voluntarily met with their staff, in person, told them what I knew about the encounter and responded to all of their questions. I also shared the allegation and my account of the events with a number of leaders in Richmond because then, as now, I have nothing to hide.

I would like to encourage the media, my supporters, and others to treat both the woman who made this allegation and my family with respect for how painful this situation can be for everyone involved. I wish her no harm or humiliation, nor do I seek to denigrate her or diminish her voice. But I cannot agree with a description of events that I know is not true.

If we learned anything from the past week, it’s that we have to listen to people’s experiences to learn from them so we can make progress. Like many of you, I’ve spent time over the last several days discussing difficult subjects with people very close to me. I believe that if we continue to listen, we will continue to make the progress that makes the Commonwealth of Virginia a unique place, not only in the South, but in the United States of America.

These are unprecedented and difficult times. We have the opportunity to prove ourselves worthy of the challenge and come together. I look forward to continuing my work to unify the Commonwealth.

[theboss]

1. There is no way out of this for a Democrat

This is basically saying, "I believe she is sincere in her allegations but also totally full of shit."

I don't get how you can square this circle.

She's either lying or is not, right?

[moondust]

6. Maybe a matter of different perceptions

of the same "incident"?

[theboss]

9. In another words, every date rape accusation ever

That's not really comforting, is it?

[moondust]

12. He said/she said.

No witnesses. No previous complaints from her suggests that this *may* be an opportunistic accusation to keep him from ascending to higher office.

Black face is different because there are photos and witnesses.

[theboss]

14. There's a statement from a friend at Stanford that she has talked about this

Also, is past statements to friends really the requirement here?

Is that the spirit of "believe all women?"

Believe all women as long as they told a girlfriend or therapist at some point in the past?

[qazplm135]

39. I don't "believe all women"

I take all women's claims seriously.

A fundamental difference that requires a serious investigation of all claims without also requiring a blanket belief merely in an accusation with no investigation.

[cab67]

81. THIS

[happy feet]

224. This!

[ADX]

231. THIS..

...Say it again louder for the people in the back...

[Loki Liesmith]

153. Who "believes all women"?

[Drahthaardogs]

192. Actually, if you are in the middle of a hot make out session

I expect her to have told him no, stop, slow down, I'm not comfortable... anything.

Did she? He says no. What has she said?

[dawg day]

215. She explained...

She tried to stop him. Forgive me for being gross, but it's hard to say much with a dick in your mouth.
Who knows. But incidents like this happen and one person is hurt. And the other doesn't notice. And the hurt one tries to move on.

It sounds very plausible to me...
Also that he remembers it differently. Most guys would.

[onit2day]

128. The timing is suspicious. Hotel room meeting and then friends for yrs afterward. hmmm

[Adrahil]

34. Not comforting, but also quite true.

Many men are culturally unaware of how they can be perceived as a threat, especially in the haze of a sexual encounter.

Or they do perceive it, but think their partner is willing.

I know a woman who once told me she had a sexual encounter that she pretended to enjoy, because she was afraid of hat would happen if she objected. It's a tough spot. She felt coerced. But there is every chance the guy thought it was consensual.

Some of this is an artifact of how men are culturally encouraged to ACT as sexual predators, even in consensual relations.

The problem of course, that the line can get very fuzzy.

Men and women need to be encouraged to ensure consent is freely given, even if they think it "kills the mood."

[Ms. Toad]

28. That may well be the case -

But then don't characterize it as, "I know is not true." Twice.

I suspect it may well be a difference of perception. Assuming they were similar ages, she may not have been able to clearly communicate her discomfort (her description sounds as if she might not even have been physically able to express her discomfort); he may hot have been as aware of how aggressive his behavior was, that it was scaring her, or have been oblivious to picking up on her cues that the interation was no longer consensual. But his declaration that his perception the was truth leaves no room for the different way she experienced the interaction - short of her being a liar.

It would be perfectly fine for him to have said, from my perspective . . . , I was unaware she was experienceing the interaction differently than I was, etc. But I have a difficult time reconciling the rest of his very good response with a blanket denial of her perception of the interaction.

[58Sunliner]

112. I don't buy that men don't know. I am pretty sure they don't care if they don't know.

And if they don't care, and continue, they are abusers, or rapists.

[Ms. Toad]

195. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt -

Something his flat - it is not true - did not give his accuser.

[druidity33]

152. Also consider...

he may be privy to descriptions of the events in question that we are not as the general public. He may be responding, in an unequivocal way, to very specific charges...

[Laura PourMeADrink]

155. Here's what doesn't seem to square with me. Strikes me

that if someone exhibits force like holding your neck? It would make you mad. And, you would say something immediately after. I am just trying to think of what a normal reaction would be. Have no idea what actually happened.

So if she didn't say anything, and he is telling the truth, that he didn't know his actions were objectionable, what is her motive for bringing it up now? Why would she put herself through the humiliation? Again, talking averages here. There is no way in the world I would want my family, friends, coworkers, neighbors to know I randomly go to hotel rooms and give b*******.

Hmm .think I just convinced myself that he probably is not telling the truth.

Still bothers me that WaPo said he did not tell the truth about them finding holes and inconsistencies in her story. Strike one for sure.

I don't know none of us know.

[Ms. Toad]

196. As to your first paragraph -

As someone who spent 10 years working at a rape crisis center - encounering well over 500 women during that time - telling someone immediately after is relatively uncommon. Especially with acquaintances - when you can hear the kinds of reactions posted on DU today ringing in your ears, and you are kicking yourself because you believed the acquaintance when he said he just needed to stop by his hotel room to pick something up, etc.

Chances are there won't be a prosecution - so, with acquaintances, women frequently bury it, try to forget, and move on.

And yes to everything else you said.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

198. Yes...if you mean telling someone else, I agree. I am

Talking about saying something to HIM like "can't believe you did that you a******."

[Ms. Toad]

200. I never said anything to the acquaintance who raped me -

I just got the hell away from him and tried to put it behind me.

As for her iteractions with him - I kinda think gagging and crying is the equivalent of "can't believe you did that you a******."

[Laura PourMeADrink]

201. Sorry. Sounds like this might have

At least started as consensual? I don't know all details..but didn't they say they've been friends since then?

[Ms. Toad]

202. The kiss was unexpected but consensual - beyond that no.

She describes him forcing her head into his crotch, and crying and gagging while he forced her to engage in oral sex with him.

From her statement:

What began as consensual kissing quickly turned into a sexual assault. Mr. Fairfax put his hand behind my neck and forcefully pushed my head towards his crotch. Only then did I realize that he had unbuckled his belt, unzipped his pants, and taken out his penis. He then forced his penis into my mouth. Utterly shocked and terrified, I tried to move my head away, but could not because his hand was holding down my neck and he was much stronger than me. As I cried and gagged, Mr. Fairfax forced me to perform oral sex on him.

She said she had no contact with him after that encounter.

I consciously avoided Mr. Fairfax for the remainder of the Convention and I never spoke to him again.

[Pacifist Patriot]

17. This is a tough one and illustrates how difficult this can be.

They both agree an encounter of a sexual nature occurred, yet each believe their own contrasting interpretation of the encounter is the correct one. And indeed it could be if that was never addressed openly as it appears it must not have been. He could sincerely be stunned and never saw this coming, while she has for years harbored a belief he mistreated her.

What he remembers in one way, she could recall in a completely different way. After 15 years, either or both of them could plausibly have accurate recall of their experience and just didn't express to one another how different their experiences were at the time. Or the passage of time could have evolved the memories of the encounter and its emotional context either for the better or for the worse. It's extremely difficult for the principles to sort through that, and nigh on impossible for third parties.

So no, it may not be a matter of either lying or telling the truth when it comes to how someone feels about an event or experience. That's why I appreciate the way he phrased his statement. I think he gets that.

[theboss]

19. You do know what the legal definition of misconstruing consent is, right?

It's sexual assault.

If he admits that he misunderstood her signals, he admits to assaulting her.

[Pacifist Patriot]

22. Yes

As a rape victim, I'm intimately familiar with the legal definition of misconstruing consent. But thanks for the education.

I confess I have not followed the story in detail, so I do not know what the full extent of the accusation is. I do, however, know that sexual misconduct allegations are often messier and with more gray areas than people tend to think. Especially after so much time.

For both of their sakes, I hope a respectful investigation can resolve the matter. I don't like to see either women dismissed out of hand or the potential for allegations to become political weapons because they so easily result in the outcome intended. Both parties deserve a fair hearing.

[qazplm135]

70. Pretty reasonable

Position in my book

[qazplm135]

42. not quite

there is consent, and then there is lack of consent, but there is also the legal defense of mistake of fact as to consent.

If an accused subjectively and objectively had a reasonable mistaken belief as to consent then it's an affirmative defense.

It's not cut and dry that your second sentence is true at all. In fact, if an objective person would have also misread her signals, he's innocent of a crime.

[theboss]

50. Mistake of fact has largely been a dead letter since the 90s

I wasn't even aware people still attempted to use that defense, but I don't stray into criminal defense work much.

Is this still used?

[qazplm135]

64. Absolutely not a dead letter

It's used all of the time in cases where there isn't clear evidence of non-consent. Sometimes successfully and sometimes not, again turns on objective and subjective reasonableness (unless it's a specific intent crime then subjective belief can theoretically be enough although in practice a jury will want some level of reasonableness to believe the accused)

[radius777]

206. also this isnt a court of law

politics is the court of public opinion, and most random sexual hookups take place under some grey area of sexual consent.

if it's he said she said, then in the metoo era we err on the side of the woman - but we also need to consider that America is built on the presumption of innocence as a cultural value, and not just a legal precept.

just as w the Kavanaugh case, I thought what was required was a thorough investigation (which we never got) before coming to any judgement about something he may or may not have done as a kid.

same standard imo applies here, we should have a full investigation of Fairfax and the claims against him, before as Dems/voters determining his fate (whether he should become gov or not should Northam resign).

[EffieBlack]

32. That's exactly how I see it

[Empowerer]

73. Truth.

Every word.

[Nitram]

20. Why would she stay in contact with him for 15 year and never bring up her discomfort with

what took place?

[BlueStater]

23. According to her, she hasn't spoken to him since the incident.

So, yeah, one of them is lying.

[Pacifist Patriot]

25. That is what has the strongest potential to determine credibility.

[Hulk]

85. Have any males on these threads had intercourse with other women before ???

OK. I was no sex magnet in my youth, but if I had a woman come forward and claim I raped her, which I am very clear that never occurred, I guess I would lose my chance to serve in public office?...or at a job? I think this could very possible be a political hit, as that is very probable in today's political hot and divided world we live in.

So much we don't know, and so much is none of our business anyway.

[Recursion]

232. There's lots of "unfair" reasons a given person can't serve in public office

I've got to be honest that I'm not very concerned about that.

[MH1]

109. Actually there is a point where he seems to (nearly) contradict her.

He says they stayed in touch. She says she never spoke to him again.

If he has any old email from her that proves they did stay in touch and the relationship appeared normal, although technically it isn't "speaking", it would undermine her story that she never spoke to him again.

Based on what I know today, I don't think there is enough "there" there, to convict and push this guy out.

If this is the type of character he is, then other people should have had the same kind of experience and should come forward. If it is only ever one person without any proof or any contemporaneous outcry, then I think that just isn't enough. Especially if he could prove that they did stay in touch and there was no hint of any problem. Tough for her if her story is true, but lots of people have lots worse things happen to them and can't do anything about it either.

[triron]

208. Bullshit.

[Demsrule86]

225. I thought it was a great statement...this situation reminds me of the woman who accused the

comedy guy of forcing her... in some of these cases one party regrets the sex. Not all women tell the truth...nor all men. I think this is a reasonable statement.

[Blue_Tires]

2. smart... well played

[hlthe2b]

3. Whatever he said if private (as being reported), thank heavens he didn't attack her in the statement

[Honeycombe8]

4. The precedent has been set. He must be ousted from his position.

It shouldn't be this way. There should be some sort of legal investigation or hearing, or at a minimum getting the accuser on the record under oath. But a decision has been made before now that that is not the way these things will be handled. Any credible accusation shall be assumed to be true, and the politician ousted.

My view of these things is that the accuser(s) should have their accusations questioned, and the accusations recorded under oath (affidavit or live). I also think that when it's a state elected office, it should be up to that state and not the Democratic Party as a whole to demand someone's ouster. But others have decided that's not the way to go, so I guess it's not up to me.

[Pacifist Patriot]

18. I disagree. This is a great opportunity to demonstrate it's a crappy precedent.

I don't want her dragged through the mud, but I also don't want accusations easily weaponized by anyone.

[theboss]

21. So what should the precedent be? Just ignore her?

Do we say, We listened to women for a year and a half and took action, but now the collateral damage is just too big ….so thank you for your bravery. We admire your courage. But he's governor now.

[Pacifist Patriot]

24. WTF? Why would anyone think I would advocate ignoring her?

I don't want a repeat of the Franken drubbing. Nor do I want to see a repeat of the Kavanaugh hearing.

The precedent should be a respectful investigation, not a knee jerk reaction on anyone's part. I'm not sure why due process is off limits as a reasonable response these days.

[theboss]

27. Because "an investigation" is a cop out

What is there to investigate? She says one thing happened 15 years ago. He said another thing happened. There's no physical evidence. No witnesses.

At most, you get the Kavanaugh hearing of "Sure she said something" and "He would never do that" except now it's an inter-party shitshow.

The entire point of MeToo is that there is nothing to investigate but we still believe it happened.

The point of it was never, "We kinda believe you, but once ten accusors are revealed, then we can fire the guy."

[Pacifist Patriot]

38. For one thing, the discrepancy in whether or not they had contact over the last fifteen years.

Goes to credibility if he has evidence they kept in touch when she said she never had contact with him again. Sorry, but I'm just uncomfortable with where this could go if there is no process whatsoever. I fear it could backfire badly for assault victims if accusations have consequences without due process. Because while you and I would never stoop to lodging false complaints, there are people who will with ideological or financial motivations in play. False allegations are exceedingly rare. I'd like it to stay that way.

I'm not saying she's wrong. And I'm not saying he deserves to keep his job. I just think there needs to be a little more than competing statements before a rush to judgment.

[qazplm135]

46. well for one

he's stated they kept in touch, and she's stated they did not.

That right there is something that can likely be found out.

Another would be contemporaneous reporting to someone by her. It undercuts a motive to fabricate, or the idea that she is getting back at him at the worst possible time.

There's stuff to investigate.

The point of me too is to take accusers seriously, not to abandon any and all critical thought and simply label any and all accusations as simply true without any examination at all.

[erpowers]

84. Kept It To Herself

In her statement she claims that she did not speak to anyone, during, or after the convention, about the incident. She only began to tell people about the incident in 2017, after she noticed that Justin Fairfax was running for Lt. Gov. of Virginia. At that point, she began telling friends. In December of 2017 she reached out to a friend at the Washington Post. In March 2018 the Washington Post decided not to publish her allegations. This February, when it seemed like Fairfax would be elevated to Governor of Virginia, Dr. Tyson supposedly made a private Facebook post claiming that a rising star in the Democratic Party was about to get a promotion. Dr. Tyson claims that after the Facebook post numerous individuals including newspapers began seeking her comment. She claims that she had not just decided whether or not she wanted to come forward, but on Sunday February 3, the conservative publication that published the allegations about Governor Northam published her post, her name, and her picture.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211783509

[EffieBlack]

95. One of the things that troubles me about this is how it came to light

The cryptic Facebook page post - not naming names - that just happened to get screenshot by a friend who then sent it to a rightwing website which published it, prompting Fairfax to issue a statement denying it (knowing that a failure to deny it would have been held against him), which denial Dr. Tyson says is the only reason she's speaking publicly.

It all could be coincidental, a comedy of errors that created a perfect storm - and surely, stranger things have happened in politics and in life. But it also makes my spidey sense go "hmm?""

[theboss]

104. Like I said, she clearly went to the DNC in 2004 with the intent of trapping someone....

….who might seek higher office in the next two decades.

She created an entire academic career as cover.

She is the greatest Republican operative ever.

Are we sure she didn't doctor that yearbook too?

[58Sunliner]

131. Rec. LOL.

[radius777]

214. Exactly, has a Roger Stone-ish feel

to it, just like the Franken hit job.

People (including liberals, including PoC, etc) can be used for political reasons, especially when power (and thus jealousy/resentment) is involved.

What is needed is thorough investigation, so that the public can understand the facts, and come to a political decision.

[SunSeeker]

57. That's all Kavanaugh's accusers ever asked for was an investigation. nt

[theboss]

60. Because it can't resolve anything. Tie goes to the runner, I guess.

[SunSeeker]

91. Investigations are not useless. They dig up corroborating, and exculpatory, evidence.

There is no reason to not try to get all the evidence reasonably available.

[radius777]

210. Exactly - it's not a court of law

but of public opinion, where the public can have more information to make a political decision on.

If an accuser comes forth in the sphere of public opinon - then the accused should have the right to defend himself in that same sphere.

[EffieBlack]

97. By "runner" I assume you mean the accused because of the innocent until proven guilty thing?

[cab67]

77. I'm not sure that's the entire point of MeToo.

I follow the wrongful conviction news closely. In the vast majority of wrongful convictions for sexual assault, the survivor identified the wrong person, but an assault actually took place. Nevertheless, there is a very small number of such exonerations in which no assault ever occurred.

Such allegations should always be taken seriously and treated as such, but that doesn't mean the allegations must always be believed.

[OilemFirchen]

193. The entire point of MeToo is that there is nothing to investigate but we still believe it happened.

What utter, fucking tripe.

[radius777]

209. that's the problem with MeToo.

Even with Kavanaugh, I thought what was needed was a full investigation before coming to any conclusion about him. Even if the evidence is imperfect, it would be more to go on that simply an accuser pointing a finger.

MeToo is (mainly) a white female (and not necessarily liberal, there are many conservative white women involved in it also) that is easily weaponized against liberalism itself - as in the Franken situation.

Men throughout history who have been the wrong color, wrong religion, wrong class etc HAVE been falsely accused of all types of sexual crimes - often to further political agendas.

Indeed we should take seriously (and properly investigate) any claims of sexual assault much more than we did in the past - MeToo revolution is to be commended for changing our thought processes on these issues. But we can do this WHILE protecting the rights of the accused, in both a legal, cultural and political sense.

[Empowerer]

213. Thank you for writing this

It needs to be said and too few people are saying it.

[obamanut2012]

53. Yeah, especially since we know they are being weaponized

[pandr32]

65. I agree

One thing I have learned is sometimes, when attraction wears off, people tend to characterize the encounters differently because the rose colored glasses aren't on to look through.

Also, it is a very slippery slope to take today's thinking and new standards to evaluate something in the past without adding the full socio-cultural-legal context of the time.


If a past event was legal and socially acceptable (or even tolerated) then--we should tread very carefully--especially if a person has been a good citizen and shown positive growth since. I know I shudder at some of the things I have been involved in or done. I have tried to use those events as teachable first-hand examples with my children (and nieces and nephews) of what not to do and how not to be.

[theboss]

74. Ah, the ol' "She regretted the encounter" argument

We are no different than Freepers when it's a Democrat being accused of something. No difference at all. We break out all the same chestnuts. Maybe not in the same overwhelming numbers, but it's there.

[58Sunliner]

118. "If a past event was legal and socially acceptable (or even tolerated)"-WTF??

I guess raping women is ok because it used to be tolerated? How about hangings?

[demmiblue]

120. This thread is really bizarre. And disappointing...

many responses are right out of the far-right misogynistic playbook.

[EllieBC]

123. So are we letting Weinstein and Cosby out too?

No? Only some rapists are ok? No proof and according to some you must have iron clad proof. It is Opposite Day here.

[theboss]

146. We're giving Democrats a one-rape pass, I think

This is all disgusting.

[EllieBC]

154. It truly is.

I didn’t think I’d ever see a day where people I considered or assumed were allies would defend someone accused of rape simply because politics.

[uponit7771]

168. Nah, just not allowing the ratfucking ... #metoo doesn't mean guilt by accusation. That's unwise

[pandr32]

158. Really?

Sorry...not playing.

[uponit7771]

167. #metoo doesn't mean guilt by accusation

[moriah]

230. I hope you are referring to extremely bad costume choices...

... and not the allegation of taking the acceptance of a first-base advance as permission to go on to third despite tears and trying to get her head away...

When you say something was "legal and socially acceptable (or even tolerated)".

Because while some guys have incredibly bad first BJ etiquette, there's a difference between continuously nudging a girl further south and immobilizing her head while tears are streaming down her cheeks.

[Honeycombe8]

170. So NOW you think it's not a good idea.

But for the two before him, it was a great idea.

Unfortunately, no one can go back in time and not oust a duly elected Senator from the state of Minnesota because of accusations not attested to legally...just told to the media. And no one can withdraw their mounting calls for a duly elected Governor of a state to be ousted.

Now hopefully those supporting the Lt Gov can see what has gone on before. How manipulated certain Democratic politicians were, how orchestrated the manipulation was by the Republicans, how easily some fell hook line & sinker for it (maybe because it served them well politically).

[Pacifist Patriot]

223. Are you sure you're replying to me?

I have been 100% consistent with every single sexual misconduct accusation on both sides of the aisle. I am a proponent of deliberation and due process, not knee jerk reactions and summary dismissals. Always have been. We should treat women's accusations seriously and with respect. But that doesn't mean automatically jumping to conclusions about credibility. That disrespects everyone and can lead us down a very dangerous path we don't want to go.

[uponit7771]

166. This is false, #metoo doesn't mean guilt by accusation

[Honeycombe8]

172. It does to some. Ask the people on the Franken list. nt

[uponit7771]

173. True, that's why this shouldn't go down the wrong track of Franken

[Honeycombe8]

175. Too late. Can't roll back time for Franken. The precedent has been set.

Otherwise, people can only wonder why this Lt Governor should be any different. It's not because it's a state-elected office. After all, people think it's fine calling the state's Governor to be ousted. It can't be because the accusation isn't testified to legally in any way (they weren't for Franken).

So why would THIS elected official be different? Why is Harris silent on this? What about Brown? Why is HE silent and not calling for an ouster?

[uponit7771]

185. Never too late to do the right thing, no need to keep making the same mistake different day

[EffieBlack]

176. I fought like hell to keep Franken from resigning

[Honeycombe8]

177. He didn't resign. He was ousted. He had no choice.

Being a Senator requires the ability to work with other Senators, discuss bills and agendas, serve on committees. When your co-Senators tell you to leave, and then the head of the Dems in the Senate joins in...they are telling you to leave. They were going to remove him from committees. He could no longer represent the people of his state.

And so it should be with the Lt. Gov. It's unfortunate that some people are behaving this way. Are they going to pick and choose and play favorites, now, when it suits them? Making the reasons for their prior choices all the more obvious?

[mcar]

5. This is a good statement

But hers is devastating. I do not know how this will turn out.

[LAS14]

7. Do we have any details of her complaint? nt

[theboss]

8. She has a long statement in another thread

So...what now?

[underpants]

83. Do you know how I can find the other thread

Not asking you to search. Just tell me what forum and some clue on the subject line.

[theboss]

93. It's in general discussion twice

It should be easy to find.

[underpants]

115. Found it.

Thanks.

[PunkinPi]

114. Here you go...

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211783513

[ADX]

10. Kudos to whoever crafted that statement...

...because it is extremely well-written. Only time will tell how this all plays out though...

[58Sunliner]

111. I can bet it was not Fairfax.

[Rustyeye77]

11. This is why i support # ME TOO

NT

[dawg day]

13. I don't know what he should do

but while Democrats usually resign in these cases, we have two "alleged" sexual predators on the SCOTUS, and of course one in the White House.

They yell and play the victim and get offensive and ... survive.

I don't get it. It's like you win huge just by being an arrogant asshole over and over.

But we should make sure we pressure GOP offenders as hard and as relentlessly as we do our own.

[bdamomma]

51. I agree with your comment

But we should make sure we pressure GOP offenders as hard and as relentlessly as we do our own.

I am not to familiar with the situation in Virginia, but it sounds like a "hit job" to me, and who do the repig snakes want to put in.

[58Sunliner]

133. She is a fellow at Stanford. She does not look like a hit job.

[bdamomma]

182. Welcome to DU

By "hit job" I meant this is repigs strategy of neutering Democrats (Northam and Fairfax) who were nominated and put themselves (repigs) in those positions.

[dawg day]

234. I don't think it's a hit job-- you miss my point--

Just that we should make sure to be relentless with the GOP offenders also.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

15. He needs to step down.

[DoctorJoJo]

33. Yes--Because Eating Our Young and Losing Elections Is the Democratic Creed!!

[obamanut2012]

55. This needs to be investigated to the fullest

Then, if need be, he needs to step down immediately.

[theboss]

62. Define an investigation here

What do you do?

[uponit7771]

169. This is false, #metoo doesn't mean guilt by accusation

[Hassin Bin Sober]

181. It's a credible accusation and a credible person.

This person just train wrecked her life by stepping forward. She just came out in public and said a man forced his penis in her mouth.

What could she possibly gain from making this up?

[uponit7771]

184. Nothing can be gained, still doesn't mean guilt by accusation. #NoFranken2.0

[Hassin Bin Sober]

187. From day one it was known Franken's accuser was a right wing media personality.

[radius777]

218. When money/power/fame is involved,

there are all types of motivations any human can have, especially when politics and political manipulation is layered in.

The only way to know the truth is to have a proper investigation so the public can come to their own conclusions.

[Recursion]

233. Why are you talking about "guilt"? This isn't a criminal trial

The standards we need to hold politicians to are not the standards of criminal court

[Nanjeanne]

16. He says she stayed in touch months after. In her statement, she says she never spoke to him

again.

If he has any proof that his statement is correct, her credibility goes out the window. Will be interesting to see if he included that statement “nor during the months following it, when she stayed in touch with me” because he can show that to be true.

[questionseverything]

30. we already know what he said about the post not printing her story wasn't true

[regnaD kciN]

136. Indeed...

That is nowhere near determinative of guilt, of course, but it suggests that Lt. Gov. Fairfax isn’t immune from stretching the facts in order to claim innocence.

[qazplm135]

43. certainly true...he's made an allegation

it either has evidence for it, or it doesn't. If it does, it impinges on her credibility....if it doesn't, it impinges on his credibility.

[Nanjeanne]

45. Exactly. Which is why I wonder why he inserted that so specifically into his statement.

[qazplm135]

49. one of two reasons

1. he has evidence
2. he made the claim and hopes no one will ask him to show his work

[Demsrule86]

226. I have heard that there is evidence she stayed in touch...and that is why the Post wouldn't touch it

[DirtEdonE]

26. This won't be taken well here I'm sure

But there are people out there of both sexes who sometimes act on very bad motives.

Maybe some ratfcking pubican piece of trash made an offer to someone to weaponize a 15 year old encounter.

Deny, deny, deny. It worked for that blackout drunk serial sex abuser kavanaugh.

[theboss]

29. So we should investigate her finances? #MeToo #nt

[DirtEdonE]

37. If that's where you'd like to take it then go there

I didn't mention investigating her in any form. YOU did.

I'd like to point out, however, that there are no or very few #metoo charges against pubicans that actually stick.

It's almost as if the pubicans are using your #metoo movement to get rid of Democrats in government while their own serial sex abusers occupy the very highest seats of legislative and judicial power.

You must really enjoy losing. Where are all the #metoo people when the pubicans heads are on the chopping block?

Maybe we should investigate the finances of the #metoo movement. It seems to be very beneficial to the pubicans and outright deadly to the Democrats. When are you going to hold pubicans to the same standard you hold Democrats?

[theboss]

40. So MeToo is a Republican front?

I'm glad you are here to speak truth to power.

[DirtEdonE]

44. Well, me too is only getting rid of Democrats

So you take it from there.

I'm not saying me too is a pubican front but the pubicans sure are using me too to their very best advantage, aren't they?

The russians call trump a useful idiot because he doesn't even know he's being used. You can take the rest from there.

[radius777]

219. MeToo is (mainly) a white movement

that also has conservative and chivalrous undercurrents, ie protecting the virtue of white women.

MeToo was started by a black woman, but only gained traction when conventionally attractive white women spoke out about being preyed upon by a black man (Cosby) and a Jewish man (Weinstein).

Franken, a Jewish man, was taken down by Stone/Tweeden et al with 'trumped up' charges and narratives ('slimy lips') that play to Trump's alt-right base.

[Demsrule86]

227. sometimes it is...in this case yes.

[rocktivity]

31. Bad foreplay is not sexual assault; bad consensual sex is not rape.

Check, please.


rocktivity

[theboss]

36. The fuck?

Good God.

[DirtEdonE]

41. I understand your position completely and I agree

People come in many colors and genders but they all have certain things in common.

[demmiblue]

47. My god, that is fucked up. n/t

[BlueStater]

52. According to her, he forced her to perform oral sex on him when she didn't want to.

How the fuck is that not rape?

[DirtEdonE]

61. According to him, they had a consensual relationship

And she never exhibited one iota of complaint in 15 years. Then, when he's just about to be sworn in - there it is!

Almost as if someone planned it, don't you think?

Two words for everyone who actually believes the fantasy that only men have ulterior motives in sexual encounters - Jessica Hahn.

[BlueStater]

67. And his word is more credible than hers...why?

Also, by your logic I guess Roy Moore was set up as well because no one accused him of being a child molester until he won the nomination for a Senate seat.

[qazplm135]

71. It's not

But it's not necessarily less credible either.

[DirtEdonE]

75. And her word is more credible than his...why?

Also, roy moore is a pubican. So that does not compute. Because pubicans are NEVER guilty.

[rocktivity]

79. NEITHER of them have given me a reason to believe one MORE than the other

Last edited Sat Sep 2, 2023, 12:32 PM - Edit history (10)

and in the American system of justice, the defendant gets the win when the credibility finishes in a flatfooted tie.


rocktivity

[regnaD kciN]

139. And, as we all pointed out during the Kavanaugh hearings...

...you don’t need to meet the legal standard of a criminal conviction to demand someone not be elevated to positions of political power.

Remember all the Republicans screaming “innocent until proven guilty!” at us during that fiasco. Were we convinced by that argument back then?

[theboss]

144. It was a job interview, as I recall

So, let's call this Fairfax' annual performance evaluation.

[radius777]

217. Which is why we need more info

to make a proper evaluation, and not be so eager to drive a black man (or any person) out of office for charges that may or may not be true.

[uponit7771]

171. This is false, #metoo doesn't mean guilt by accusation

[BlueStater]

80. You're the one implying that he should be believed over her.

Her statement, without question, says he raped her. Implying that she mistook a consensual fling with rape, like that other poster did, is insulting as hell.

And your statement about Roy Moore is just nonsensical.

[DirtEdonE]

87. You're the one implying that she should be believed over him.

His statement, without question, says it was consensual.

He said, she said. You said, I said. It's all BS. You, and the me too ex post facto application of human interaction notwithstanding.

[brooklynite]

110. I seem to recall someone else who seems to think you always side with the man...

[EffieBlack]

119. You're not accusing DirtEdonE of saying we should always side with the man, are you?

Because they didn't say that at all.

[BlueStater]

122. Are you going to keep repeating everything I say like a parrot?

And I never implied at all that she should be believed over him. Your statement is bullshit. I was responding to the implication the other poster made that she mistook consensual sex with rape.

[Demsrule86]

228. There is no fair way to ajudicate this. So let the voters decide in the next election.

This is an effort to stop Democratic momentum and steal Virginia...can't allow it.

[Dream Girl]

100. Timing. Not a peep to a soul in 15 years, then boom!

[BlueStater]

127. I expect better from this place. How disgusting.

There were no allegations against Bill Cosby until like 40 years into his career or whatever.

[uponit7771]

174. #metoo doesn't mean guilt by accusation, I'm more disgusted that this is Franken 2.0

[BlueStater]

189. What evidence do you have that this is a hit job?

Vanessa Tyson seems extremely credible to me. I'm one of Franken's biggest defenders here and I agree the allegations against him seemed very sketchy. I don't get that vibe with Fairfax's accuser at all.

[uponit7771]

190. Because guilt buy accusation is screwed up no matter what the sequence of events. The DNC handled

... the situation with Ellison correctly IMHO.

[rocktivity]

69. And according to the statement of hers that I found

it "began as consensual kissing" and "although surprised by his advance, it was not unwelcome and I kissed him back." That alone is enough to slam the ball of reasonable doubt into the defendant's court.


rocktivity

[EllieBC]

76. A woman can say no at any time.

Just because someone starts kissing someone consensually doesn’t mean sex is green lighted.

Are we really going to go back to, “she let me miss her so I thought it was ok” as an excuse?

[DirtEdonE]

89. Don't leave me this way

Baby please, don't leave me this way.
Sung by a woman!!!

[DirtEdonE]

90. People in general

Male, female, gender neutral, etc. should be very careful to NOT get themselves into situations where they have to say NO to get out of a situation they should never have gotten into in the first place.

[EllieBC]

92. This sounds so republican to be honest.

It really does.

She shouldn’t have gone to the bar, party, out dressed like that. Shouldn’t have smiled. Shouldn’t have given him her number.

How about he should keep his dick in his pants until someone says they want it?

Kissing someone doesn’t mean they will have sex with you and you aren’t entitled to sex.

[DirtEdonE]

94. oh no - the ultimate insult!

It's funny when you say I sound like a pubican while your "movement" is deleting nothing but Democrats from government.

Just sayin'. Facts matter. And those are the facts.

[EllieBC]

99. What movement? That women are people?

I don’t give a damn who it is. You are not entitled to sex. A woman who kisses you doesn’t mean that you won’t hear “no” to more later and that you don’t have to listen.

[DirtEdonE]

116. Listen, don't try to run that crap on me

I have NEVER, I repeat, NEVER felt entitled to sex. I have ALWAYS stopped when I hear NO. But that isn't the whole story.

I've never told anyone this. But when I was 13 years old, I was sexually assaulted by a grown woman. And she was absolutely beautiful. But I never considered it sexual assault because I loved her and she said she loved me - until she dropped me like just any other guy. Then she got married and named her son after me. I know because her family told me. And her husband's name was different from mine.

I learned A LOT from that relationship. One thing I learned, women aren't the sanctified versions of the Virgin Mary as they'd like to be thought of. They're just like men. Good and bad. You take that and figure it out for yourself.

I consider myself an average guy. I'm attractive and physically fit and women have always liked me. And I've always liked women. I'm not bragging but I never kissed and told. I always respected the girls/women I dated. Other guys made up stories of conquest. I just kept to myself and kept being myself.

I had women coming on to me because I didn't come on to them. I had women I worked with offer me sex knowing I was married. I declined 99 percent of the time but no on is perfect. I had a dental hygienist throw herself at me while I was in the dental chair! I could tell you many, many more stories. The point of fact is, male, female, etc., we all want sex at some point.

I'm not bragging. It's just that back in the last century there was this thing called "the sexaul revolution" and then there was this thing where women didn't want to be treated any differently than men; no more niceties, no opening doors, etc.

Yet now, suddenly, those years are being brought into the harsh light of the 20teens where any man who dares respond to a perceived advance is a rapist and a criminal. Ex post facto. Look it up. You can't apply today's law to yesterday's actions.

If you do, we'd have to lock up everyone in the Bible.

So yeah, Me too is for me too.

[moriah]

197. Glad you realize we aren't all the Holy Madonna, though I'm sorry for the circumstances.

But you've heard of the "Madonna/whore" complex, right?

We don't want to be thought of as idealistic visions of purity, or be placed on pedestals -- because pedestals are very uncomfortable places to reside, and soon enough everyone falls. Nor are we just here to satisfy sexual whims. We are human beings.

My father, too, was abused in a similar fashion to you, except he was less attached to her. It turns out she got to every boy in the neighborhood, and that definitely blew any visions of romance out of the water. His response to being "taught what it was all about" was to give a similar lesson to a girl a year younger than him.

But, okay, even if you didn't consider it rape then, which is understandable -- you also understand that you were a child, right? It's perfectly healthy for a teen to crush on an adult. It's up to the adult to wait until the teen is also an adult before deciding to give any "lessons", however, and using the powerful feelings created by sex with a mature adult to manipulate the teen is WRONG. No matter who does it.

----

None of that, however, let alone any of your stories about your consensual exploits with women, supports your premise that being rejected = being a criminal. Unless the person's response to being rejected was to decide to go on ahead and take what wasn't willingly given.

[moriah]

134. Welcome to DU!

First, I'd like to state that the opinions expressed below are strictly my own, and may not be representative of DU as a whole.

Now.... Please re-read your statement and think about how a person who has been a victim of sexual assault might construe your statement.

I was raped. By someone I'd known for three years. I didn't get the chance to actually SAY no, but trusted him enough to drink far more than my usual and went to sleep on the offered couch while he and his friend were still awake. I woke up with his friend gone, in his bed, to penetration, and the adrenaline surge as I was coming out of the tunnel of alcohol-enhanced sleep was intense enough I was able to terminate the rape in progress.

Sure, I could have chosen not to drink. He certainly couldn't have carried me without me waking up if I hadn't been blitzed. Sure, I could have just stayed home when I got the call to hang out with a friend I'd known so long. But I trusted him. I thought I had a safe place to sleep off the booze.

Just *how* careful should people have to be for what happened to them to not be considered their fault? Never be alone with a person unless you want to screw them right then and there? Court like the Duggars?

[LAS14]

156. And here we have an example of why women don't report sexual assault. nt

[moriah]

194. I wasn't going to say it right out, but I must admit you are correct.

Look, none of us were in the room that night. But suggesting that, should she HAVE been sexually assaulted, it was her fault for being in his room and kissing him back...

No. Hard pass.

People cannot live their lives from fear alone. If I tried to avoid every possible unnecessary "bad situation" I could potentially get into... well, I'd likely never leave the house, and I have enough issues with that now already. People must be able to live their lives and not feel like it's their fault when someone decides to victimize them. Even if part of living that life is accepting a first-base advance without wanting to go to third immediately.

[DirtEdonE]

211. I'm not a woman

And I didn't report it either.

[DirtEdonE]

82. The Katie Brennan story

is another prime example of reasonable doubt. TWO separate county prosecutors refused to bring charges yet the same DEMOCRATS who couldn't nail chris christie with enough evidence to fill a rail car are trying to take Governor Murphy down on a claim that has zero credibility with TWO separate county investigations.

If it begins as consensual kissing exactly what direction is it expected to go?

Here's a secret that I've shared with the women I love - my wife and my adult daughter - men want SEX and they will do anything and/or say anything to get it.

Always keep that in mind, especially when you hear that little voice in your head that sounds suspiciously like me warning you.

[erpowers]

126. Women Want Sex Also

I am not trying to be mean to you, or insult you, but many woman want sex also. I think there are many women who want sex and enjoy it just as much as men. At least one of the main differences is that women get called names for having sex with multiple partners and men do not get called names.

[58Sunliner]

140. Just OMFG. All those rapists are victims of scheming women.

Rape isn't an ulterior motive. It is the means to violence, power and rage.

[TexasBushwhacker]

68. Have you read her statement?

It goes beyond "bad consensual sex" IMHO.

https://www.scribd.com/document/399054978/Statement-of-Dr-Vanessa-Tyson#from_embed

[DirtEdonE]

96. Have you read his statement

It goes to the heart of consensual sex becoming revenge sex, IMHO.

[TexasBushwhacker]

113. I read both statements

Why would she want "revenge"? She is a successful woman in her own right.

[DirtEdonE]

212. Why would he lie?

He's successful too.

If success is the yardstick, they're both successful. He said. She said. When it's a pubican they just say it was consensual and that's the end of the story. Why aren't people holding pubicans to the same standards as Democrats?

Because only Democrats are holding their leaders responsible while pubicans keep ratfcking our leaders and us.

He said. She said. It works for pubicans. It's good enough for me when the accused is a Democrat.

[TexasBushwhacker]

220. I guess it's not good enough for me n/t

[EffieBlack]

59. And people have also been wrongly convicted - and often executed - based on ONE person's testimony

There's a reason that rape convictions are difficult to obtain when the accusation is unfounded.

Per your first citation:

False allegations of rape, from a legal perspective, typically refer to one of the following situations: “(1) a report of forced sexual contact where there was no sexual conduct at all; (2) a claim of forced contact where the actual encounter was consensual; or (3) an accusation of a particular person when the complainant knows that her assailant was someone else.”1

Even strong advocates for rape victims admit that false accusations sometimes occur. The real debate is regarding the frequency of these false claims. Some suggest that only 2% of rape accusations are false (a rate that is similar to that of non-sex offenses), while others state that the rate is higher (e.g., 8%). According to a few sources, the rate is significantly higher (e.g., 40%).

There are several possible reasons for this wide range of estimates. For one, it appears that some analyses conflate unfounded and false. Legally speaking, the term unfounded describes claims shown to be false or ones deemed not serious, verifiable, or prosecutable.

A report may be considered unfounded if:

The victim did not sustain any injuries, the perpetrator did not use physical force (or a weapon), the perpetrator and the victim had a previous sexual relationship, there is a lack of physical evidence, there are a large number of inconsistencies between existing evidence and the victim’s claim, etc.

[EffieBlack]

124. Which, accepting your numbers, means that between 2 to 8 percent of allegations are false

It's rare, but it happens.

But, as one of your articles notes, a much larger number of accusations are unfounded, meaning it's difficult if not impossible to determine whether the victim or accused is telling the truth.

[bdamomma]

48. I am

not condoning their actions. But it seems to be a hit job on both the Governor and Lt. Governor of Virginia, by Repigs. Just my opinion.

[theboss]

54. How is this a hit job? She a liberal college professor?

I honestly don't understand this defense at all.

[obamanut2012]

56. yup

[bpj62]

58. Social Media Lynching

Some of you are really quick to not only convict Justn Fairfax but you are also ready to hang his career over it as well. None of us were in the room with them that night. Nor were we with them when the evening started and they clearly had an attraction to each other. He believes the oral sex was consensual and she says it was forced. I don't know what to think but I do know that a mans career hangs in the balance as does the credibility of Ms. Tyson. I am a life long Virginian and the events of this week have shaken me. However I am not willing to destroy a man's career over two peoples different perception of an event that happened 14 years ago.
In no way am I diminishing sexual assault so please don't even attempt that canard.

[regnaD kciN]

151. Now, I don't have the most extensive sexual resume around...

...but, back in my single days, I can’t imagine a scenario where a girl (who I didn’t know that well) and I would start making out in a bedroom, and where my next move would be to go direct to “whipping it out,” grabbing her head and forcing her to take it into her mouth and blow me. And then (to take it into a fantasy world where I was capable of that), when it was over, seeing her immediately get up and leave the room without a word and still assume everything was fine and that we had merely had a “consensual sexual encounter.” Even if I had managed to miss any signs of her discomfort during the act itself, such an abrupt ending would have given me a pretty good clue that something had gone horribly wrong...and I would have been around that age long before the notion of “explicit verbal consent” was a thing. But, then again, I would never have gone from initial kissing direct to “now, ‘service’ me”...and I would consider anyone who would think that normal to at least have the mindset of a potential sexual assaulter.

[bpj62]

164. Encounters

Well i can tell you that I had more than several encounters in my early adulthood where that is all that happened. I have never ever forced myself on a woman. I am not going to be more descriptive than that. These things do happen and in my case they were all consensual.

[KPN]

63. We can't hold others accountable unless we

ourselves are accountable. There is no middle road. However, that does not negate the legitimacy of some form of due process.

A real conundrum, especially when the other side puts the ends above all else.

[theboss]

66. What process is due?

I believe the statute of limitations has expired on this and even if it hasn't, no DA is going to bring this case?

So then what? A hearing in the Virginia senate? At the end of which, what? I guess they can impeach, but that seems both like too much and too little simultaneously.

[Lonestarblue]

72. Something I have never understood.

First of all, I’m female. I worked in corporate America for decades, attending conferences, company meetings, and industry shows with many opportunities for men and women to communicate on both business and personal levels. Here’s what I have never understood. What is it you expect to happen when you go with a man you’ve recently met to his hotel room? Am I wrong in thinking that such willingness is a clear signal to a male because a public bar or restaurant is clearly the place to go if all you want is to get better acquainted? Maybe I’m just ill informed or naive. What am I missing here?

[EllieBC]

78. Ok well, then I guess all the rapists get off the hook?

You went to the frat house.

You went out walking at night.

You went out drinking.

You wore a low cut shirt.

[MH1]

117. Nope. There's a difference between "what she was wearing" and

"she willingly entered his hotel room after he kissed her in the doorway"

That doesn't mean that what happened in the hotel room couldn't be rape. It very well could have been, and if she can prove it in any way, he should be nailed for it. (my whole post and to this point the entire public discussion that I'm aware of, is that there is ZERO proof of what she is alleging, in fact zero evidence even.)

But it DOES mean she was fucking stupid or naive or drunk or something, if she knew she didn't want sex (as she says in her affidavit) but still followed him into the room after he kissed her. Say no, I have to get back but do you want to grab a drink in the bar later? (while remaining in the doorway or backing out, but NOT going into the room!)

An alternative version is that she ended up liking him better than he liked her, she didn't like the way he ended it, and has been nursing a grudge all this time. Hey I'm not saying that's what happened but at this point I think we have as much evidence for that version as any other.

It's a tough thing if her story is honest and accurate. But people get hurt all the time with no recourse to justice. Maybe she should just toughen up and use her story to educate young naive women how to avoid getting in situations like this. And that when something does happen they need to at least TELL SOMEONE AT THE TIME. Otherwise like her, they give up all right and possibility to get justice later.

[treestar]

180. Going into the room is not consent to sex

No male should be able to argue that is the case.

[MH1]

183. Oh I fully agree. But we have no idea what ACTUALLY happened.

She is in a position where she is claiming somebody harmed her, but she cannot prove it, or even provide one single shred of evidence.

I don't know how we got to "guilty until proven innocent" but that sure is how some people are acting.

I don't know these people, all I know is one says something happened one way, someone else says it happened a very different way, and at least up til now there is NO WAY to determine the truth. I don't think the voters of Virginia should get fucked over on one person's say-so without any corroborating evidence.

Back to going into the room, even though it isn't consent to a damn thing, a large portion of the male population ARE jerks, and why put oneself in that situation? Doesn't make her a bad person or a "slut", just means she missed an opportunity to avoid any possibility of a problem altogether.

[obamanut2012]

102. nice slut shaming

Wow.

I have hung out with male colleagues in their rooms at conferences and vice versa.

[EllieBC]

103. It is all over this thread.

A bunch of frat boys.

[Demit]

132. I think your post is entirely reasonable.

I'm a woman too. And I agree, hotel rooms have connotations that other locations don't. If your intent in going to a man's room is to make out with him just a little and no more, you better be ready for how you're going to end the encounter. You should be calculating outcomes at all times. Women are not helpless.

[Lonestarblue]

204. Thanks. I think some drew conclusions I did not intend.

My comment was a generality, not specifically about this situation. I think women have the right to dress anyway they want and to be safe from attacks of all types. Unfortunately, we live in times when women are vulnerable to attacks—sexual and physical—and I believe we must take some responsibility for our safety by not putting ourselves in places or under conditions that endanger us when we can avoid them. There are times you can’t avoid being vulnerable, as when running or walking in a park. But we have more control over other things through our choices. For example, I would never leave a drink unattended in a bar to go to the bathroom and then come back and finish the drink. Nor would I walk alone in a strange city late at night or go to a private place with a man I had met only a couple of days before. Yes, I agree that any man who is told that the woman is not interested should back off, as many men would do, but why make yourself vulnerable in the first place?

[RobinA]

205. Thank You

Woman cannot simply depend on men doing the right to keep themselves safe.

[LAS14]

159. Read her statement. I don't know if it's true, but it is not a description...

... of something that happened consensually. Are you really saying that if you go to a man's hotel room you are obligated to give him a blow job? Are you really saying that???? Here, in DU???????

[treestar]

179. You could just go there to talk

I think it would be awful if it meant you consented to sex just because you went there. She was willing to make out, and that requires a private place. But it should not mean consent to anything else.

[IronLionZion]

86. It is entirely possible for 2 people to have different perceptions of the same event

She might be sincere. I just find it extremely suspicious that a RW blog broke both stories against Northam and Fairfax. It feels like a planned and coordinated takedown.

If Big League Politics breaks a juicy story about the VA AG Herring, then it will be too obvious to ignore.

Virginia AG Mark Herring admits wearing blackface at 1980 college party
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/virginia-ag-mark-herring-admits-wearing-blackface-at-1980-college-party

[PeeJ52]

88. I don't know if it's just me, but I couldn't imagine being able to "perform" in that situation...

there is no way that would be exciting for me. I'd be scared to death, pulling my thing out and "making" someone do something to me. It's just something I couldn't imagine happening if it's not mutual.

[underthematrix]

98. I will not try him in the court of public opinion

Link to tweet

[regnaD kciN]

157. Wow...

...this only demonstrates once again to me that, in “political algebra,” the answer depends entirely on whether the terms are on the left or right side of the equation.

So, going from “delivering documents to consensual kissing” legally presumes consent to any and all sex acts that may follow? Congratulations, you just eliminated the concept of date rape! “Well, she responded when I kissed her in the parked car, so how possibly could she object to me f*cking her while we were in there???”

[Baltimike]

101. STAND YOUR GROUND LT. GOV FAIRFAX.

For the good of the commonwealth

[theboss]

130. What if he, like, raped her?

We stand by him?

[EffieBlack]

135. What if he, like didn't rape her?

We throw him out and smear him as a violent criminal for life?

[theboss]

137. We tried to do that to Kavanaugh

I tried to do that to Kavanaugh.

I think I tend to believe her. So.....what now?

[Baltimike]

188. This. And the TIMING of BOTH of these things is too convenient

We won't be hamstrung by moral absolutes.

[Squinch]

106. Good statement, let the investigation proceed.

[ooky]

191. Exactly.

Without any evidence this goes no further.

[Dream Girl]

107. Full disclosure, I've gone to hotel rooms and knew exactly what I was getting into.

And it wasn’t to play a game of tiddlywinks.

[regnaD kciN]

161. So, does that mean every woman should be assumed to be just like you?

“If she didn’t want sex, why did she agree to come to my room?” Welcome to the 1950s!

[Dream Girl]

163. I think it's a reasonable assumption that if you're going with a guy to his hotel room

Somethings up. If you’re just looking to get better acquainted, stay in the lobby, exchange phone numbers but don’t go with him to his bedroom. Women are not fragile little children. Back in the day I worked in a rather swanky hotel in my city and hooked up a few rather prominent men, athletes, actors and such a few times. It just for a lark, I was very, very, young but I knew exactly wat I was doing. Different times. What if I claimed rape years later? My word against their’s.

[CTAtheist]

108. Without any actual evidence, this really isn't pursuable

Just like a prosecutor/D.A. will simply not take a case with no evidence, neither should politicians give such empty accusations any merit. Its ludicrous to flip our entire legal system (innocent until proven guilty) upside down just "because, image" or "because, politics." Sorry, that just doesn't fly with me. You need to have evidence, that is how our legal system works.

[Yosemito]

121. And there's the precedent issue

We risk giving ex-girlfriends unlimited power to impeach politicians.

[theboss]

141. So?

I swear to Christ we were in favor of this last year.

[CTAtheist]

148. If "we" were ever in favor of "guilty by accusation", "we" were wrong - nt

[regnaD kciN]

162. Congratulations! Lindsay Graham would approve...

Really, this is sounding so much like the Republican defense of Kavanaugh, it would be funny if it weren’t so sad.

Riddle me this: if a Republican governor of Virginia had to step down, and the right-wing, white, privileged Lt. Governor had similar charges made about him, and issued an identical denial, would we all be intoning piously about “due process” and “innocent until proven guilty?” Because our behavior during the Kavanaugh hearing would sure suggest otherwise.

[CTAtheist]

165. Not sure who this "we" is people keep referring to

I only speak for myself, and no one else.

No evidence = no case. Republican, Democrat, Neo-Nazi - I don't care. I either am on the correct side of the law, or I'm not. Innocent until proven guilty is part of what makes America a free country. I will not sacrifice that just "Because, republican!"

I read the woman's statement, and I don't find it credible. There is also no reference by her to anyone else who can corroborate her claim, unlike Blasey-Ford.

Facts matter, not just accusations.

[treestar]

203. Kav didn't have the job yet

Here, they have already been elected.

The evidence against Kav was a lot better. The yearbook showed his character. The calendar I believed corroborated the date. There was a third party there who admitted to a lot of it.

That and this case is why I want to see the yearbook for every candidate.

[David__77]

125. The person making the accusation won't make further statement.

He denies it. There’s no physical evidence beyond the statements, so it seems. The question is: is a verbal allegation enough to warrant resignation?

[58Sunliner]

129. Obviously not written by Fairfax. What, no conspiracy theories about Stoney?

To me it says volumes about the guy that someone accuses you of assault and what do you do? Complain to the media that you are being sabotaged by rivals, or the gov. Time will tell if we have another accuser coming forward. I don't think anyone should resign unless there is a clear way to protect the people from repub plans. That includes Northam. If this gets worse, assault is an impeachable charge.

[DeminPennswoods]

138. Read her statement issued via her attorneys

I think the part where she states that Fairfax's kiss was "not unwelcome" tends to support his version that whatever happened was consensual.

[BlueStater]

142. The kissing was consensual.

Him allegedly sticking his penis in her mouth was not.

[58Sunliner]

143. No, it effing doesn't.

[DeminPennswoods]

147. Honestly, her story is not that credible

to me despite her impressive background. They obviously had at least some interest in each other or a mutual kiss would never have happened. Whether one sent or recieved the wrong signal, none of us know.

[EllieBC]

145. Thank goodness for clearing that up.

ATTENTION MEN: If a woman lets you kiss her you a green lighted for ALL the things. So sorry we’ve been bugging you to stop raping women at parties or in dorm rooms all these years. Carry on!

[califootman]

150. Can't we believe them both?

He thought it was entirely consensual.

She did not think, after a certain point, it was consensual.


How did they communicate that to each other?

[LAS14]

160. No, we can't. Her description (which may or may not be true) makes...

... it impossible to believe that he thought it was consensual. Read her statement.

[califootman]

178. I have read her statement and his statement.

I can believe that her statement describes how she felt and what she thought was happening.

I can believe that his statement describes how he felt and what he thought was happening.

I can believe that they both saw this incident very differently.

Where is the truth? I don't know. In most cases, it is somewhere in between.

[theboss]

186. You can't really split a baby in a rape case

If she did not give consent, it's rape.

If she did, it's not.

This is actually a pretty good reason to make sure that when you put something in someone, they actually want it in there.

[califootman]

216. Consent. Ah, there's the rub...

Consent is not specifically defined. The standard in the sexual assault statutes is whether the accused compels
the victim to submit by force and against his or her will, or compels such person to submit by threat of bodily
injury. Mass. Gen. Laws. Ann. Ch. 265 §22.

Submit by force. How much force? If you are touching a person in any way, you are exerting force on them. When do you cross the line?

Against his or her will. How do you know another person's will? Heck, aren't there times we don't even know our OWN will? Words and actions are the best way we have to communicate our will to other people. But generally we aren't that great at communicating. These two individuals were obviously not communicating if they can have such disparate recollections of that evening.


And aside from the legalese, what was the social conditioning fifteen years ago... what message were we telling men? No means no? As a man, that tells me to proceed until I get some indication of no from the woman. Then absolutely stop. Which wouldn't be so bad if we didn't stink at communicating.

(If I could figure out how to get it to work, I'd link to the scene in The Man with Two Brains where Steve Martin is saying, "Just give me a sign... any kind of sign".)

I think over the last few years, and especially with the MeToo movement, our message to men has evolved to: Anything OTHER THAN YES means no. Which is where it should be. It requires some sort of communication be established to get affirmative consent before proceeding. And with that communication established it is more likely that if one party then decides they are no longer consenting they will be comfortable expressing it, and the other party will be more likely to understand it (and, hopefully, respect it).

[BlueStater]

199. Unless you're a psychopath, it's pretty easy to tell when someone wants sex and when they don't.

Was she resisting and acting uncomfortable? I can't see how there can be any confusion here.

[obamanut2012]

222. You should be ashamed

[sellitman]

221. If Kavenaugh resigns so should Fairfax

Otherwise he should tell them to go pound sand.