The defenses of Fairfax are a mirror

[boston bean]

To those employed by Kavanughs defenders.

I am not shocked.

[Bleacher Creature]

1. Didn't he hire the same lawyer as Kavanaugh?

If we base our reaction to something like this on whether we agree or disagree with a person's politics, we're no better than the GOP.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

28. Kinda tells you everything you need to know.

[Fresh_Start]

44. he's using the same attorney but Fairfax retained them in January 2018....

so its possible that Fairfax retained them before Kavanaugh

[58Sunliner]

2. They sure are. We also are into CT territory, just like BK.

It would not surprise me if the women accusing Fairfax were getting death threats. I am not surprised, but to me it is disgusting the crap I have seen on this site in past few days. Every regressive attack on women who come forward with rape allegations has been on display.
A real sexism and at times, an inability to go beyond race. It is hard for any woman to come forward, and I imagine, even harder for black women. My heart goes out to them.

[Bradshaw3]

52. Well said

I too have been shocked by the response of many on here, especially after the second accuser came out. I naively thought many would change their tune on the subject. I was wrong. Most have doubled down, which is even more disturbing.

[dawg day]

3. What we (including we women) don't want to face is --

some "good guys," even "nice guys," do these sorts of assaults-- "date rape"-- especially when they're younger and there are fewer inhibitions to their conduct.

And I have no doubt that many of these men look back on an encounter that might have scarred the woman for life, and the guys remember it as "consensual" or "a date" or "no big deal." There's a lot of self-serving memory-modification going on for them. I wonder how many men recently have looked back on some similar event and thought, "Did I-- was that assault?" Probably not very many. There's a psychological need to deny. (And if the scales fell from their eyes and they realized they'd committed assault, you think they're going to go turn themselves into the police? Of course not. We should consider that when we wonder why the women didn't report... why didn't the men turn themselves in?)

People keep asking about women, "Why not report it?" It might be because the woman, seeking to restore some control, to get beyond this, decides consciously or unconsciously not to have this complicated ugly situation destroy her plans for her life-- she might have something else to do for the next three years than argue (very likely with no success) with an uncaring system that she was raped and he should be in jail.

The fact that so many people even here on a progressive site are finding all sorts of reasons why these two women "did it wrong" is an indication of #WhyIDidntReport

[FarPoint]

4. The fact that Kavenaugh is on the Bench for LIFE ...

Even after the testimony of Professor Blasey. ..

Well... okay..this is the standard.. I can't fix it and do not see why we need to shoot ourselves in the foot and remove Democrats from a political position based on hearsay alleged sexual assault claims....

I could indeed support the higher standard but...since Kavenaugh slid right into the US Supreme Court....now we have a standard to measure beside ..

[lark]

8. Sorry, but FUCK NO!

Kavanaugh should be impeached for lying and because he's committed sexual assault on numerous occasions. Fairfax has to be removed if he's a rapist - sorry I will not forgive and forget. Kavarape needs to pay and if Fairfax is guilty, so should he. A crime against multiple women is still a crime and not just a minor issue. If he raped, he has to go. If he's so arrogant that anything he wanted was "consensual" whether the woman wanted it or not - I sure as fuck wouldn't want him representing Democrats.

Hell NO. Women matter.

[EndGOPPropaganda]

46. Impeach Kavanaugh. Impeach Fairfax

[lark]

49. Kavarape definitey - Fairfax is investigation doesn't clear him.

Getting freaking rapist out of government is not too much to ask.

[peggysue2]

58. Of course Fairfax should go if he is a rapist

But right now what we have is an allegation, two allegations. I don't think asking questions about those allegations is a anti-woman position. There should be an investigation into both the backgrounds of Justin Fairfax and his accusers. We can support women in bringing their stories forward but an allegation is just that . . . an allegation.

I made my mind up on the Kavanaugh hearing because of Dr. Ford's testimony. That detail of having her mouth covered was absolutely chilling and triggered a similar memory for me back in the day. I also listened to Kavanaugh whose demeanor and answers to questions were highly defensive, off-the-cliff angry and highly questionable. For me he absolutely failed the job interview for SCOTUS.

With Justin Fairfax we're talking about felony rape. He has a right to answer the charges and confront his accusers. The woman have a right to defend those charges and provide their stories. Without slowing this whole process down, none of that will happen and no one's rights will be protected.

Women absolutely matter. As for men? I have sons and a husband. I'm not ready to throw them all in the woodchipper.

[jcgoldie]

20. Just no.

We have to be better than, "they don't care about supporting rapists so why should we." We have to be way better than that.

[Blue_true]

55. So this is where we are?

A cartoonish Rambo in the ruins of a buikding saying "they drew first blood". Putin does not have to destroy us, we are perfectly willing to do it ourselves in a tit for tat struggle with pigs. American voters went to the polls after Kavanaugh and rendered a mixed, but powerful verdict on who they believed, only in states where the vote was suppressed was that verdict not loud and clear.

[loyalsister]

5. The lesson behind me too is that it is systemic

It should not surprise us to discover that people we have liked and supported have been aggressors.

It's a cultural agreement that powerful men of all political stripes are to be protected from any repercussions for their bad behavior. The tactics are standardized. Our well being is attached to their weathering such storms. And women pay the price.

[EffieBlack]

17. Wow

[Eliot Rosewater]

40. Deleted, fuck this. I am done. bye bye

You can stay and fight the fight, but it wont work. If you know what I mean.


I am DONE

When a republican takes the spot and ends Medicaid for the poor, I could go on for hours. MADNESS to let ANY Republican EVER into ANY Position anywhere EVER

[HipChick]

25. So is this how lynching

of how a black man occurs now? As a Virginian, I think Fairfax is due fair process, but I see he is being treated as something else...

[Fuzzpope]

29. I never said the word "black"

You did.

And secondly, I also stated clearly that I don't have a voice in Virginia affairs, but I DO have a right to express my opinion, which I did here and nothing else.

I didn't call for his removal, much less his lynching, but you are free to mischaracterize what I did say to your heart's content.

Of course he is entitled to due process, but that has no bearing on my impression of his response to this accusation. Which was something like, "fuck that bitch", iirc..

[HipChick]

61. Emmett Till

comes to mind...
With attitudes like this, I wonder why African Americans would continue to prop up the Democratic Party....

[58Sunliner]

38. Yeah, right. The only difference here is you can not separate race from rape.

The women are black also, is that a lynching??

[dlk]

33. Thank You for Sharing Your Perspective Based on Experience-You Are Probably Right

Having survived too many years being married to a high level, bi-polar, psychopath, I understand your ability and further understand how personal experience teaches us. It's critical to believe women. I also believe an investigation by a credible authority is called for. Experienced sexual assault investigators encounter slick predators throughout the course of their work and also learn from dealing with their lies. In my view, an investigation doesn't discount or minimize the victim's or their credibility. It also helps guard against being manipulated by those with an agenda.

[Fuzzpope]

35. Absolutely, and thank you.

[Fresh_Start]

42. In addition to the bitch comment

he also accused both the Governor and the Mayor of releasing the damaging information obviously without evidence since he accused both of them.

I'm not sure that falsely accusing others is proof of your own honesty.

[Empowerer]

50. The anonymously sourced second-hand bitch comment

[kcr]

7. Oh, bullshit!

Of all the general smears of DUers, this one is up there. Shame on you.

[boston bean]

9. The truth is the truth. I see NO difference.

[kcr]

10. Then why are you here?

I certainly wouldn't hang out with a bunch of Kavanaugh loving types. To each their own, I guess.

[boston bean]

11. I guess I feel that maybe they are in the wrong place.

[kcr]

13. Been here since 2001, somehow managed to stay.

You know, Duke has publicly announced they're investigating the Duke rape. But because she won't say who it was because they didn't run for any office, I imagine it's pretty shitty right now for anyone on the team during that time. I'd be pretty pissed if I were them. But hey, I guess caring about that makes me like Kavanaugh defender somehow. Guess their reputations are collateral damage.

No. I'm not a member of the Believe All Women No Matter What team, and I don't think that makes me, or anyone else the same as a Kavanaugh defender. I don't think Tyson is deliberately lying, but she's being taken advantage of by the GOP. Meredith is jumping on the bandwagon through her sketchy PR firm. I never defended Kavanaugh.

[boston bean]

15. Been here quite a while myself.

I also am not a member of the believe all women no matter what team.

I wasn’t’t convinced with the first accuser. But the second who told people back then and named him and those people back it up. I believe them.

[58Sunliner]

41. The one sentence in your reply that says everything."I'd be pretty pissed if I were them"

Just creepy.

[boston bean]

18. PS. I never said people here loved Kavanaugh. Jus that their defense of Fairfax

Was a mirror of the defenses of Kavanaugh.

[Bradshaw3]

53. All it takes is to look at the responses the past few days

They do mirror the Kavanaugh defense. One poster started a thread with many of them. They have continued or gotten even more absurd after the second accuser came out.

[Bradshaw3]

54. Poster never said that

And it's wrong to accuse them of it. The post was about using the same type of defense that Kavanaugh defenders used. And that is what has happened here. And it is wrong.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

12. Let's put aside the vitriol and discuss this as members of a community.

How are the defenses of Kavanaugh and Fairfax different and how are they similar?

[kcr]

14. Apparently I'm not a welcome member of this community

Regardless, there was no vitriol on my part.

[boston bean]

16. LOL.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

19. This story is moving so rapidly

Did Ms. Watson fail to identify her attacker who played Duke baskebtall. She will presumably have to now that they have launched an investigation.

[boston bean]

23. I assume duke knows as she reported it to them.

[dsc]

21. I have been consistent as have many others

I wanted an investigation of Kavenaugh and want one of Fairfax. Before the hearing I would say that the accusation against Kavenaugh was similar to the second one against Fairfax (seemingly credible women, both told others before the men became famous) Once the hearing was over Kavenaugh showed himself to be a liar.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

26. Desiree Washington, Patricia Bowman*, Meredith Watson*, Christine Blasey Ford, Vanessa Tyson*...

I tend to believe all of them. I desperately wanted to not believe the women whose names I have put an asterisk next to because the accused was someone "on our side" and I hate myself for feeling that way.

[dsc]

31. I think the accusations should be treated seriously

which means investigating them. The first two led to convictions. The 4th should have led to a real investigation. The third and fifth, if there is an impeachment will get an investigation, which is what should happen.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

34. William Kennedy Smith was acquitted.

[Empowerer]

51. Precisely. Taking accusations seriously does not mean taking them at face value without more

[IluvPitties]

22. For the good of the party and the people of Virginia

This man should just step down and focus on helping his victims and family heal from his misdeeds.

[EffieBlack]

24. I don't see anyone "defending" Fairfax. I see people asking for an investigation, which Kavanaugh

defenders did not do - in fact they fought against an investigation with every fiber of their being.

What I see instead is some people treating Justin Fairfax the way Kavanaugh defenders treated Dr. Ford. Assuming that he's lying, not wanting to give him a chance to be heard, and arguing against an investigation that could help get to the truth.

On the other hand, I don't see anyone treating Dr. Tyson badly. She's not being called a liar or crazy. She hasn't been dragged into the spotlight against her will. She isn't being forced to talk about anything she's tried to keep private or to expose her personal pain to the world over her objections. She's just simply being asked to help people verify her story, not an outrageous thing to ask when someone makes such a charged allegation.

[boston bean]

27. Did you type this with a straight face?

He will have his investigation during an impeachment trial.

Both will testify.

Is he in favor of this? Cause that is the only avenue for an investigation. We’ll see I guess.

[EffieBlack]

30. An impeachment trial is a political process - it is NOT an investigation

Testimony before an impeachment trial is better than nothing. But it still doesn't come close to a criminal investigation.

[boston bean]

32. A prosecutor brings the charges if they feel there is enough evidence to win.

In these cases they are decades old. Highly improbable they would charge him and bring him to trial. This is the case in many sexual assault cases. It it not unusual.

Are you meaning that if they can’t charge she Is more likely lying? Or that because there was not enough evidence for a trial or conviction her word is less truthful or that she may be lying and he never have to face any consequence and he can be President of the United States like trumpass??

a lack of a criminal trial in this case is meaningless.

[EffieBlack]

36. A prosecutor determines if there's enough evidence AFTER police conduct an investigation

I did not say if they can't charge then she's lying. I'm saying if she doesn't even let them investigate, there's no way they can even get to the point of charging. And not gathering enough evidence to get a conviction or even to charge does not mean they can't gather ANY evidence that wasn't known before.

You can't have it both ways. You can't on the one hand insist that a mere accusation is enough to conclude that he did it - and then pivot to insist that she shouldn't ask for an investigation unless she knows in advance that it will produce enough evidence to prove him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. If proof beyond a reasonable doubt is the bottom line for asking for an investigation, why isn't it the bottom line for publicly making the accusation? And if a public accusation is sufficient for you to believe he did it, why would you object to gathering even more evidence simply because it won't prove something beyond a reasonable doubt?

[boston bean]

37. They can investigate without her asking them to.

And it is Not a mere accusation. It is two accusations. One of which is extremely credible with persons who are willing to testify that she told them about it at the time.

You think the bar for his removal is proof beyond a reasonable doubt. That is scary. That is not the measure used in these instances.

Is it any wonder most rapists aren’ttied or convicted. Hell there is enough there here to ask for his removal. He ain’t going to jail.

[EffieBlack]

43. Don't mischaracterize what I said

I never said "the bar for his removal is proof beyond a reasonable doubt." I said that if you think that an accusation is enough for his removal you can't then justify a failure to file criminal charges is an assumption that the investigation won't produce proof beyond reasonable doubt sufficient to convict in court of law.

[boston bean]

45. So you want the accuser investigated for her veracity. Just come out and say it.

That is for a defense lawyer to do.

Face it there will be no criminal trial so you got to make up your mind with what is in the public record. Which is pretty damning by the way.

[EffieBlack]

47. Not investigated, but her credibility DOES need to be weighed against his

But the point of an investigation isn't to test her veracity. It's to gather evidence, including what she has to say under pain of criminal consequences for lying and what he has to say under pain of criminal consequences, and interview witnesses under the same circumstances.

But I'm through discussing this with you. You obviously have an unshakeable point of view that Justin Fairfax is a rapist because a woman you don't know says he is. I, on the other hand, have an unshakeable point of view that none of us knows what happened but a police investigation can provide us more information that could either bolster Dr. Tyson's story or help to exonerate Lt. Gov. Fairfax - or lead to no conclusion but at least assure us that an attempt was made to investigate the matter and not just leave it at "she says you're' a rapist so you must be one. Now get out!"

We're not going to find any common ground on this, so I'm not going to waste any more of my time discussing it with you.

[boston bean]

48. There will be no criminal investigation. There will be no prosecution.

So what you gonna do. Use the absence of that to weight out her truthfulness? Have at it.

Lots of people believe that if not convicted in a court of law the person is innocent Which is quite gullible imho.

However your standard for calls for his resignation or his removal is not realistic and thankfully will not be the process.

He will have the option of an impeachment trial.

Let’s see if he follows through on that.

[uponit7771]

57. BB, that is ... NOT ... the only avenue for an investigation. Ellison got one that was credible and

... wasn't being impeached.

Come on with this

[uponit7771]

56. Come on BB ... this goes too far.

[Blue_Tires]

59. Last I checked, Kavanugh skated and now has a seat for life

while Fairfax is about to be impeached...

All I ever asked for was some corroborating details and for some inconsistencies in their stories to get straightened out... If that makes me a criminal, then I don't know what to say...

And for the record I'm not even defending Fairfax anymore so you can skip it.

[Decoy of Fenris]

60. You and I have butted heads (hard) in the past, but you got this in one. Well said. n/t