Why the focus on how wonderful Amazon is?

[guillaumeb]

Last edited Sun Feb 17, 2019, 10:59 PM - Edit history (1)

I have read a few articles here, mainly describing how wonderful Amazon is, and how convenient, but that convenience comes at a high cost to taxpayers and workers who are not named Jeff Bezos.

Yes, one can shop online, and literally not leave the house to do so, and possibly save money, but the short term savings is outweighed by the long term damage to the economy, and to workers.


Bezos uses 2 methods to enrich himself.

First, his ware house workers are underpaid and under-benefitted.

According to the New Food Economy, Amazon ranks high on the list of employers with massive numbers of employees enrolled in SNAP (the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, otherwise known as food stamps). In Ohio, around one in 10 Amazon employees uses SNAP; in Pennsylvania, about one in nine. In Arizona, nearly one in three Amazon employees is enrolled in the food stamp program.
Later this year, Amazon will start accepting food stamps for online grocery orders, from which it stands to benefit enormously as one of the nation’s top retailers. That means the company will be the recipient of government assistance (in the form of tax breaks and incentives) while its own workers are forced to rely upon that same program to survive.

https://thinkprogress.org/amazon-workers-rely-on-food-stamps-24ab86dd6495/

Bezos is worth an estimated £102bn, a fortune he acquired against a backdrop of global reports of misery for Amazon’s warehouse workers, exhausted by the demands made on them in return for the most basic of wages. Unions and labour rights groups have protested about low pay and harsh working conditions, and three delivery firms used by Amazon are facing a legal challenge from the GMB union, demanding that gig economy delivery drivers receive sick pay and holiday pay.


Last month it was revealed that ambulances had been called 600 times to Amazon’s UK warehouses over the past three years. There have been repeated calls for Amazon to improve the lot of its workers.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jun/09/human-cost-kindle-amazon-china-foxconn-jeff-bezos

I could continue to link to many other stories about how Bezos exploits his workers around the world, but there is no need. The point is, one way that Bezos gets rich by underpaying his workers.

This is called externalizing of costs. It is a way that predatory business people shift the cost of doing business into the taxpayers.

Second, Bezos demands that taxpayers subsidize him by shifting the tax burden from Amazon facilities to the working families everywhere. All of those subsidies, whether from TIF districts, or subsidizing the cost of building the facilities, is an effective transfer of money from our pockets to Bezos' pockets.

So remember this when you are searching online with cost as the primary factor. The supposed savings result in high costs to taxpayers.

[samnsara]

1. i know some ppl have issues with Amazon but there are lots of issues with everything..

...I for one love it, I invest in it and I use it almost daily. I think I would rather worry more about all the teachers having to use food stamps.

[guillaumeb]

2. My point here is to raise issues that some may not be familiar with.

And that there is a high cost to doing business with a predatory corporation.

[SMC22307]

19. Why not worry about both?

It's not right, whether underpaid teachers or underpaid warehouse workers. Bezos and the Waltons are billionaires and their workers are left to fight over crumbs. It's not right. And it's sounding more and more like the coal barons' company stores. Why do so many Democrats seem OK with this?

I'm not trying to be snarky here, but what in God's name does Amazon offer that a person might use it almost daily? I haven't bought anything in probably a decade and don't feel like I'm missing out on anything.

[2naSalit]

3. The Walmart of onlnine shopping...nt

[Kitchari]

7. Exactly

I have said this IRL many times

[guillaumeb]

10. True, with the same poorly paid workers,

and the same ultra rich predators at the top.

[EX500rider]

59. Is $15 an hour starting pay really "poorly paid" for retail?

I don't think it is.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/02/business/amazon-minimum-wage.html

[guillaumeb]

62. Is a living wage really too much to demand?

That might be a question to ask.

[EX500rider]

64. Expecting starting level pay at low level jobs to be high paying may be too much, yes.

And $15 is around $31,000 a year, I get by on much less.

[guillaumeb]

69. You might. And many do.

But that is not the question. In my view, the framing should be around a living wage, not a minimum.

[EX500rider]

95. So $31,000 is not a living wage? Just how much should they start people at to place things in boxes

[guillaumeb]

96. Devaluing labor is not a good position.

Allow me to reframe the question:

How many billions a year does a hedge fund manager deserve? Or earn?

How much does Bezos earn? And who determines the value of jobs?

[EX500rider]

97. I consider Amazon's profit on $232 billion in sales @ 4.7% to be pretty weak.

How much $ did the hedge fund manager make the company?

Jeff Bezos had a salary of $81,840 in 2017. He owns a lot of stock.

[guillaumeb]

98. He accepts a minimal salary

because that allows his profits to be taxed at a much lower rate.

So there is that.

Over the past 40 years, the right has devalued labor and worshipped capitalists.

As to hedge fund managers:

The median annual compensation for money managers in 2017 was just under $350,000, up from just under $300,000 in 2016, according to research done by SumZero, an online community for investors. SumZero surveyed roughly 5,500 people at 1,400 hundred different firms. Roughly half of the $350,000 in median annual compensation is base salary, with the other half being mostly cash bonuses on realized gains.

https://www.businessinsider.com/hedge-fund-pay-is-going-up-2018-1

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The average portfolio manager at a U.S. hedge fund expects to take home about $1.4 million this year, according to Institutional Investor’s All-America Buy-Side Compensation survey.

https://www.institutionalinvestor.com/article/b1bm09m9p5mf1g/Hedge-Fund-Paychecks-Revealed

[spin]

103. In five to ten years if not before many of the workers at Amazon ...

will be replaced by robots. I wonder what a living wage is for a robot.

Amazon's 'collaborative' robots offer peek into the future: Autonomous machines work side-by-side with humans at New York fulfillment center
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-6727131/Amazons-collaborative-robots-offer-peek-future-autonomous-machines-work-humans.html

[guillaumeb]

105. And a roboticized workforce is the dream of predatory capitalists everywhere.

And when we are all gig economy workers, with low pay and no benefits, who will order the things from Amazon?

[spin]

107. Probably the guys who program or repair robots. ...

Our society is facing big changes. I have no idea how this will all work out.

We do live in interesting times.

[SMC22307]

20. Exactly. Why are so many Democrats "protective" of Bezos...

but quick to condemn the Waltons?

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

53. My experience is they have a better selection of items than WalMart

Hey but if makes you happy to call them Walmart have at it.

[BeckyDem]

68. Yep. +1

The guy hates the idea of union workers, no surprise.

[melman]

4. Good question

Some of these threads lately seem like infomercials. It's bizarre.

[guillaumeb]

11. I agree.

It seems as if, for some, convenience excuses a very non-progressive business model.

[Kurt V.]

5. I've never bought anything on amazon. not bc its a political protest or anything.

i just don't see the need personally. thanks for the info.

[guillaumeb]

12. You are welcome. eom

[yortsed snacilbuper]

6. DU needs to appoint a censor to stop anyone from posting about amazon,

also put a list up of approved news sources.

[guillaumeb]

13. I am not preventing anyone from posting,

but being an informed shopper, as well as supporting the values that we profess here, might require making decisions that might seem more expensive.

But in the long run, those decisions support us, the workers, instead of greedy predators like Bezos.

[Kurt V.]

8. one more thing. these post about amazon et al show how deeply ingrained neo-liberal capitalism

is on Americans of all stripes.

[guillaumeb]

14. True, the supposed advantages of predatory capitalism

are often an implicitly understood part of the conversation.

[appalachiablue]

89. New article on Amazon & American Capitalism at CD by

Paul Buchheit. Outline of many ills. I've noted a few critical pieces on Amazon here so this one's up for grabs.

"How a Failing Capitalist System Is Allowing Amazon to Cripple America." There may be no better argument for democratic socialism in America than the way individual state leaders have been falling over each other trying to lure corporations to their states with tax subsidies. By Paul Buchheit, Common Dreams, Feb. 18, 19.
https://www.commondreams.org/views/2019/02/18/how-failing-capitalist-system-allowing-amazon-cripple-america

"Monopoly: Amazon and the Killing of Competition: Kiplinger compiled a remarkable list of 49 companies, many of them familiar to almost all Americans, that are in danger of being driven out of business by Amazon.

One of them, Toys 'r' Us, has already succumbed. Sears is nearly gone.

Others include, Barnes & Noble, Kroger, Rite Aid, Best Buy, Etsy, Yelp, Pandora, and even stalwarts like Target and Trader Joe's and UPS and FedEx and Office Depot and Staples. Investopedia agrees, adding Macy's and even Walgreen's and CVS and Costco."

[Kitchari]

9. I agree with you, guillaumeb

Decided to source my purchases elsewhere based on their terrible treatment of employees and basically being a monopoly. Haven't shopped there for a few years, and I used to be a regular. They ARE very handy, but so is Ebay, plus supporting local businesses is all to the good.

[guillaumeb]

15. Welcome to DU, and the conversation.

Bezos is an economic predator. His gains truly are our collective losses.

[Kitchari]

30. Thanks for the welcome! n/t

[guillaumeb]

16. I recommend this related post about Amazon, and Bezos' tactics.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=2267269

Bezos/Amazon is practicing, in my view, economic blackmail.

[Pobeka]

17. and it gets away with it because they are functionally a monopoly

where's the legitimate competition that can command the market share of online visits that Amazon has?

I don't have any data to back that up but I'll be shocked if it is otherwise.

[guillaumeb]

18. True. Monopoly capitalism is apparently acceptable to many voters.

Banking, retail, and other areas as well.

[SMC22307]

23. Big banks should have been broken up...

after the (carefully orchestrated) 2008 crash. They weren't too big too fail but certainly big enough for a massive upwards transfer of wealth. It's bad corporate behavior being perpetually rewarded and should be rejected by Democrats. But hey, as long as I can get bargains delivered quickly, who cares about workers on food stamps sweltering in dangerously hot *fulfillment centers* in Pennsylvania?

[guillaumeb]

32. And Bernie Sanders, and others, have talked about this.

The fact of socialism for the rich and brutal capitalism for the workers.

[SMC22307]

46. Yep, one of the many reasons I'm still a Sanders supporter. (n/t)

[CentralMass]

56. +1

[Adrahil]

21. So... what is it you want?

You want people to just stop online shopping? How does that work? We have to adapt to changes, not try to order the sun not to rise.

[guillaumeb]

22. An excellent question.

Really good.

These changes were not fore ordained, nor were they inevitable. Except in the sense that unregulated capitalism allows predatory capitalists to behave in this way.

There is no need for Bezos to underpay his employees, no need for him to extort tax money from local municipalities. He does it because he is a greedy capitalist.

[Adrahil]

24. And?

Retail in general underpays employees. In fact, the average pay at Amazon is higher than in brick and mortar retail.

[Mosby]

28. bingo

There are lots of employees in retail who qualify for welfare benefits, including some who work for unions.

People in retail are not just underpaid, but underemployed. Fry's and Safeway, for example, do not hire for full time, even entry level supervisors. These are both union shops. And they used to start people out at 8.56 per hour, until the voters in az gave them a raise to 10 bucks per hour. They compete with walmart and target, who are both starting people out now at 12.

[MichMan]

87. What is the point of having a union if you can make more $ at a non union store ?

Don't understand how a union would be so ineffective yet continue to represent workers.

[Mosby]

91. because the union is protecting the pensions

Of the older employees. New hires sort of get thrown under the bus.

I'm only speaking about the phx market, it's very competitive for everyone, the owners and the employees. Margins are tight but unemployment low, so the market is dictating wages, not the unions, which have always been very weak in az.

[guillaumeb]

33. Showing the need for unions.

Sears paid its employees relatively well, and Sears workers had pensions. These things did not simply happen.

[AncientGeezer]

47. Have you seen the Sears stories lately?

[guillaumeb]

49. In the 1960s and 1970s. our family knew Sears workers.

And they had pensions, and benefits.

Reagan triggered the assault on workers' rights.

[AncientGeezer]

52. They failed to adapt...Amazon started out selling books in '94

They adapted.

[guillaumeb]

61. The laws were re-written to attack unions.

Amazon, with all of its faults, is also ferociously anti-union.

And in general, the lower the rate of unionization in this country, the more income inequality there is.

[AncientGeezer]

99. May be...but Union membes supported the HQ in NYC

[guillaumeb]

100. My guess is that the support was mainly from the building trades.

Short term jobs versus long term bad effects.

[AncientGeezer]

101. That would be you guess...would be wrong, but you are entitled to it

I live here...

[guillaumeb]

102. Another view:

Labor groups had resisted Amazon’s plans for a vast Queens office complex partly because of what they saw as the company’s hostile relationship to unions. One of the main sticking points was a newly opened $100 million Amazon warehouse on Staten Island’s west shore, where the retail union is trying to organize the 2,500 workers.
Workers went public with a campaign to unionize the warehouse in December, shortly after Amazon named Queens as one of the sites of its headquarters expansion. Labor leaders wanted the company to refrain from aggressively discouraging employees from joining a union. Amazon had been resistant. It has no unions across its huge nationwide network of warehouses or elsewhere among its work force.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/14/business/economy/amazon-union-cuomo.html

[AncientGeezer]

104. I'm curios as to why you left this out

The labor groups did not insist that Amazon refrain from making its anti-union case to workers, Mr. Appelbaum said. “We believe there should be neutrality” by the company toward unionization, he added, “but the governor said in order to make the deal happen that wouldn’t be part of it.”

On Wednesday night, he said, his union’s lawyers began writing guidelines based on the points raised at the meeting. He said he expected to keep talking with Amazon on how the two sides would deal with those issues.

[guillaumeb]

106. I wrote more in another post:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211846924

Amazon, and Bezos, are anti-union, and have been. Predatory capitalists hate unions.

But, to your point, Amazon refused because NYC insisted that unions be allowed to make their case to Amazon workers.

[seaglass]

38. How do people not know this? Amazon seems to be the flavor of the month. n/t

[Ferrets are Cool]

26. Yes, it was an excellent question...

one in which you evaded.

[guillaumeb]

36. Dinner was calling me.

[Blue_true]

27. Amazon is not the only company that extorts money from local and state governments.

Something like $92 billion (from a DU post yesterday) was given away last year to lure business from one location to another. That is a lot of money that could have fixed a lot of bridges and roads and paid teachers properly.

[guillaumeb]

34. Indeed.

But the brutality of the so-called free market is only for the workers, not the rich.

[Blue_true]

37. That is true, unfortunately. But history says that can't last long, excesses always get corrected.

[guillaumeb]

42. And while we are waiting,

we are all getting collectively poorer. And less able to speak in a country where money equals speech.

[Blue_true]

45. Actually, historically a significant revolution in though and governance happens

Roughly every 60 years. We are approaching a 60 year interval now. The elite at the humding in Switzerland last month talked a lot about income inequality, the power structure knows that the status quo can't last much longer without them losing their heads in a real sense.

[Ferrets are Cool]

25. You buy stuff where you want and I will buy where I want.

Issue resolved.

Btw, I do not praise Bezos. But I do buy the most cost efficient means possible because I must. If you purchase anything from China, then calling out people who buy from Amazon is "rich".

[Blue_true]

29. Amazon offers hard to find stuff, that is why I use it.

I don't buy jeans from them because I have a USA made company for that. But when I want USA made shirts, I am a lot more likely to find them on Amazon than at the local Macy's or JC Penneys.

[DontBooVote]

82. I've used Amazon. I've also made money from Amazon and can make as much as I want to make.

For now, at least. Indeed, they've paid me more than I've ever spent with them. However, I always look for another source either locally or online. I usually try to find Made in the USA and Mom & Pop sources, first. I live in a large metro area so the local source may not be possible for everyone and the premium that sometimes comes with sources other than Amazon (and Walmart) may be an issue for some.

No matter where you look, it's very difficult to avoid Chinese products and I really hate it when I have to go that route.

You are correct that harder to find stuff is usually a search away on Amazon.

All any of us can do to clip any of Amazon's feathers is to try finding stuff elsewhere, first, that hopefully supports a family operation or a local one, or both.

[Kitchari]

31. Everyone can buy wherever they want, of course

Not here to criticize anyone's preferences. Years ago, however, there used to be national safeguards in place to protect consumers from predatory practices. It was the old Antitrust law, and it had real teeth. I believe there is some version of that today, but it is much weakened.

[guillaumeb]

35. Yes indeed.

It started with Reagan, and the class war on workers.

And with the SCOTUS on record as equating money with free speech, the rich are free to freely purchase politicians.

[scarytomcat]

39. The main thing about big box stores and Amazon is they take money out of the local economy

Amazon put local business out of business. This money that would circulate through a local economy. At the close of business walmart sends all the money to Arkansas. Amazon takes all the money away the local economies are suffering. Local malls are closing, pretty soon all shopping will be online. I don't think this is a good thing.

[guillaumeb]

40. Yes, they do.

And they concentrate that money into the hands of a tiny minority that uses that money to rig the system for their own benefit.

Predatory capitalism 101. Define the rules, win the game.

[appalachiablue]

90. +1 Whenever possible we purchase from local stores. There are

few, but it's worth it even if there's a cost difference & some effort involved. Never liked box stores, online is a last resort.

[cornball 24]

41. I will never buy anything from Amazon as I will not shop at Wal-Mart. Even as a penny-wise

old lady, I will not give credence to these tax dodging welfare recipients masquerading as corporations.

[guillaumeb]

43. We do not buy from them either.

But their model creates millions of low wage employees who often have no options other than the cheapest place.

And that explains why there are so many variants of the dollar store as well.

[cornball 24]

48. The entire set up is like a twisted variation of "the company store".

[guillaumeb]

50. Yes, it is.

Great summary.

[hunter]

44. Consumer culture sucks in every way. I boycott everything...

... except when I'm a hypocrite and don't.

The sad truth is that this thing we call economic "productivity" isn't productivity at all, rather it is a direct measure of the damage we are doing to what remains of earth's natural environment and our own human spirit.

I recently bought a specialized power tool on Amazon. I might have bought something similar at our local Lowes, Home Depot, or Harbor Freight, all that stuff is made in China now, but what's the difference? The people working at any of these places are not living the middle class American dream. As for keeping money local, the UPS driver probably does a better job of that.

For my immediate hardware needs I usually go to our local Ace hardware because I'm generally not a fan of giant warehouse stores, but I do shop at Costco, mostly for dog and people food.

I'd love to have an old-fashioned family owned hardware store in town, but the last of those closed many years ago, and I doubt anyone could open something similar today and pay themselves and their employees a living wage.

I'm not going to do much bickering about which poison is worse in today's economy. Strong unions would be great, yes, but the American people have been beaten down by decades of fascist propaganda.

If we want to save the world it won't be by creating a worker-consumer paradise. Rather we ought to be paying people to experiment with lifestyles having a very small environmental footprint. But that would be bad for the factory farm meat and dairy industries, the agricultural industries that support them, the automobile industry, the fossil fuel industry, etc., and ultimately billionaires.

That's the problem.

[guillaumeb]

51. This, from your funny and insightful response:

"...the American people have been beaten down by decades of fascist propaganda."

Yes, they have. The rich have controlled the narrative, with the active assistance of a thoroughly right wing, corporate media.

[WeekiWater]

54. People are being crushed by our poorly regulated capitalist society.

Even under what many of us consider a good career right now our quality of life is being crushed. No savings. Serious debt. Disposable time outside of meeting monetary needs is almost non-existent.

Amazon makes these things just a bit easier for us. Most of what you say is correct. The flaw is in outlining Amazon as the problem. Legislators are the problem. It’s simple to see why people like Amazon.

[guillaumeb]

63. Amazon, and WalMart, and dollar stores, exist because wages have stagnated

for nearly 40 years.

As unionization rates drop, ad income inequality rises, looking for the cheapest alternative is a survival mechanism.


And predatory capitalists bribe legislators so that the predatory model can thrive.

[WeekiWater]

66. It all goes back to legislators.

I disagree with very little of what you say.

There should be no such thing as a full time employee who then has to rely on food stamps.

[guillaumeb]

70. I agreed with your earlier point.

And forgot to mention it.

[eleny]

55. I'm saving since quitting Amazon because I stopped impulse buying. nt

[Polybius]

57. Amazon warehouse workers start at almost $18 an hour

How much do you want them to get paid? $30?

[MrGrieves]

58. Average pay at a fulfillment center is $26.7k

https://www.glassdoor.com/Hourly-Pay/Amazon-Fulfillment-Associate-Hourly-Pay-E6036_D_KO7,28.htm

[guillaumeb]

72. See #71

[guillaumeb]

71. Where?

Amazon said on Tuesday that it would raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour for its United States employees, a rare acknowledgment that it was feeling squeezed by political pressure and a tight labor market. The raises apply for part-time workers and those hired through temporary agencies.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/02/business/amazon-minimum-wage.html

[Polybius]

94. Staten Island, NY location

He either stocks up or loads the trucks. I will ask him when I see him tomorrow. Perhaps the pay is less for other jobs there? I know the driver's make more than him.


https://www.silive.com/news/2018/08/amazon_is_now_hiring_for_state.html

[milestogo]

60. Amazon is putting brick and mortar stores out of business.

I like Amazon, but I don't want it to be my only choice. Less choice means less freedom. So I'm going to get off my lazy butt and go to the store for what I need.

[guillaumeb]

73. And burn calories.

And perhaps meet local small business people.

[milestogo]

92. Yes. I bought a bicycle last week from a local bike shop.

The guy who sold me the bike was a highly experienced cyclist with a lot of expertise about bikes and the products he was selling. After spending about 90 minutes with him I was SO GLAD I went into a local store instead of buying online. I got a whole lot of expertise with my purchase that I wouldn't have gotten otherwise.

[guillaumeb]

93. A great reason to buy local.

And, if you need service, the seller will be there, in person.

[jalan48]

65. It's unfortunate but I think some folks just aren't "woke" when it comes to the predatory capitalism

of Amazon and WalMart. They simply see cheaper consumer goods with little or no thought about how the people working for those corporations are treated.

[guillaumeb]

74. Some might be forced to buy from predatory capitalists through economic necessity.

And we know that there is a very high cost to low priced goods.

[jalan48]

76. Yes, I agree. I still think there's a big disconnect in this country about how the goods are made

and the conditions of those working to make the goods.

[guillaumeb]

77. We do not see the Chinese workers producing goods in Chinese sweatshops.

We only see the low price. A low price subsidized by human misery.

And in the US, most workers have seen 40 years of essentially stagnant wages and benefits. So there is a cash crunch here as well, which often forces workers to see price as the main factor when deciding where to shop.

Witness how the various dollar stores are cutting into WalMart sales.

[jalan48]

79. Yep. Just watching the obscenity of the day after Thanksgiving shopping shows how shallow we

Americans are about the whole thing.

[guillaumeb]

81. There is that factor,

but for many low wage workers and retirees, pennies do count.

[jalan48]

83. Oh, I know how that goes.

[MicaelS]

67. It is not solely cost.

It is about availability. And saving time, and fuel.

If you read the threads, then you are ignoring the points made by MineralMan and others.

You spend hours on the phone calling local stores, or driving around for hours wasting fuel, only to find out, no one has what you need locally. What do you do when no one but Amazon has something you need? Just say "the hell with" and cancel your project?

Try and find a phone case for a phone two years old. Amazon is the only choice.

As far as Walmart, I shop there because I am POOR. It's
a choice between buying cheap clothes at Walmart, or not having clothes. Thrift stores locally are a joke. Target does not have shit in my size.

[guillaumeb]

75. I agree that economic necessity forces some to shop there.

And, as others and myself have pointed out, it is a matter of how the laws are written, and anti-unionism in action, and 40 years of wage stagnation and disappearing pensions for workers.

Amazon is a sign of an unhealthy economy in my opinion.

And, if one has internet access, a Google search might be one way to find things.

[samnsara]

78. the guy started out selling books online from his garage..pretty effing amazing..

[guillaumeb]

80. It is.

Even more amazing is how he demands, and gets, massive subsidies that some might call corporate welfare.

He is basically externalizing many of his costs onto the US taxpayers.

[comradebillyboy]

84. Sorry, I just can't bring myself to hate Amazon.

[guillaumeb]

85. Do not hate!!! Regulate!!

Unregulated, predatory capitalists will attack workers.

It is greed elevated over the common good.

[comradebillyboy]

86. I'm all for sensible regulation of business, but I am not anti-business.

[guillaumeb]

88. Nor am I.

But, as the last 40 years demonstrates, again, when businesses are allowed to write the laws, predatory capitalists will write the laws to benefit the 1% to the detriment of the bottom 90%.