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DanTex

(20,709 posts)
Mon Feb 25, 2019, 10:51 AM Feb 2019

Just watched the new Netflix documentary on Flat-Earthers.

I recommend it. It's quite good, funny at times. Insightful, and often sympathetic to flat-earthers (not sympathetic to the claim that the earth is flat, but to the people), who it seems to me are filling a psychological need that all people have, which is to be part of a community, feel special, feel respected, and have a mission in life.

It occurred me that flat-earthers are a sort of smaller, much more harmless version of the alt-right. Only sort of: the alt-right is hateful and racist as well as delusional, and that's obviously an important distinction.

But still, it's an insight into how people can believe crazy things in the face of huge amounts of evidence. It's also an insight into how the internet, which on the one hand makes scientific knowledge much more available to anybody, also makes it much easier for groups of people to become convinced of crazy conspiracy theories. For flat-earthers it's the shape of the earth. For the alt-right, it's things like pizzagate, or the long-debunked "IQ science" purporting to prove that some races are inferior, etc.

And by taking flat-earthers as the subject, it allows the viewer to focus more on the psychological mystery of, basically: WTF, is this for real? If the subject were, say, climate deniers or creationists or anti-vaxxers or whatever, then I would get more tied up emotionally in the damage that the those beliefs are doing to the world. And even though flat-earthers are obviously part of the larger anti-science denialism, which is a huge problem (and a lot of flat earthers are creationists, anti-vaxxers, and climate deniers, of course), still the flat-earth belief in itself is enough of a total joke that I didn't harbor any animosity while watching, just curiosity.

To be honest, some flat-earthers seem like intelligent, decent human beings. Some are obvious whack-jobs, but not all. Some even go to the lengths of doing actual physical experiments to "prove" the earth is flat (spoiler alert: it's round). And they do a solid job of it, so good that their experiments show quite clearly that the earth is round, and it's kind of funny watching their reactions. Do they change their beliefs? No. Must have done something wrong in the experiment, let's try it again...


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Just watched the new Netflix documentary on Flat-Earthers. (Original Post) DanTex Feb 2019 OP
whats the name of it - havent seen it offered nt Kashkakat v.2.0 Feb 2019 #1
Behind the Curve DanTex Feb 2019 #2
Oh its certainly psychological tymorial Feb 2019 #3
I'll try it. I have a feeling your synopsis will be more interesting than the actual documentary :) patricia92243 Feb 2019 #4
You're wrong ;) The documentary is actually really interesting! DanTex Feb 2019 #5
Its like climate change deniers... world wide wally Feb 2019 #6
They suffer from the same intellectual deficit as Trumplodytes and creationists-- Panich52 Feb 2019 #7
Their biggest problem is that these people are half-educated and proud of it. DetlefK Feb 2019 #8
A lot of them, yes, but surprisingly not all. DanTex Feb 2019 #9
A saw a trailer for a similar documentary (don't know if it's this one)... DetlefK Feb 2019 #10
That experiment is in this movie, but not the coverage of the party, that I remember. DanTex Feb 2019 #11
No, it's not about that - it's that they think the inhabitants of the southern hemisphere are lying muriel_volestrangler Feb 2019 #19
I tried explaining the southern cross and... rppper Feb 2019 #32
+1 uponit7771 Feb 2019 #12
Some billionaire TlalocW Feb 2019 #13
In This Time Of Jet Travel... ProfessorGAC Feb 2019 #14
I doubt that there exists a pilot who believes the world is flat TlalocW Feb 2019 #16
Not Talking About Pilots ProfessorGAC Feb 2019 #17
With my example TlalocW Feb 2019 #18
Yeah, I Get It! ProfessorGAC Feb 2019 #20
It isn't about whether there is an edge for them to find lunatica Feb 2019 #24
Huh? ProfessorGAC Feb 2019 #39
I understand your point and I truly appreciate your efforts lunatica Feb 2019 #42
not flat, concave. n/t librechik Feb 2019 #15
Watching this... Kind of painful... targetpractice Feb 2019 #21
"If it didn't happen to me, I don't have to believe it's true." Ilsa Feb 2019 #22
I'll watch this Johnny2X2X Feb 2019 #23
Flat eather rides homemade rocket into the California sky! yortsed snacilbuper Feb 2019 #25
The Flat Earth Society HopeAgain Feb 2019 #26
"Behind the Curve" That's awesome. LongtimeAZDem Feb 2019 #27
In case you missed this yesterday: Savage flat-earther takedown: lindysalsagal Feb 2019 #28
I think I'll watch that! PoindexterOglethorpe Feb 2019 #29
how do they explain the edge? qazplm135 Feb 2019 #30
Easy ... It's cause you're wrong, and that doesn't really happen. mr_lebowski Feb 2019 #31
Umm, good question. The edge is in Antarctica. DanTex Feb 2019 #36
but you can only reach Antartica qazplm135 Feb 2019 #37
Well, yeah, in reality that's true. DanTex Feb 2019 #38
Just watched this Johnny2X2X Feb 2019 #33
Agreed n/t Strelnikov_ Feb 2019 #34
Watched last night based on your recommendation Strelnikov_ Feb 2019 #35
Do they think the moon and the sun are flat as well? BSdetect Feb 2019 #40
Since you asked... DanTex Feb 2019 #41
One thing that was very frustrating about the documentary PoindexterOglethorpe Feb 2019 #43
And the moon landing never happened and was all staged. llmart Feb 2019 #46
I had a discussion with My Son the Astronomer PoindexterOglethorpe Feb 2019 #48
What a coincidence! llmart Feb 2019 #51
Whenever I see these people BannonsLiver Feb 2019 #44
I will never forget a wonderful line in the old TV series "ER". llmart Feb 2019 #47
But...what do they say about the thousands of flights that go around it nolabear Feb 2019 #45
Exactly. PoindexterOglethorpe Feb 2019 #49
Well the difference between flat earthers and the alt right... Initech Feb 2019 #50

tymorial

(3,433 posts)
3. Oh its certainly psychological
Mon Feb 25, 2019, 11:08 AM
Feb 2019

Everything you cited is true, community building and belonging are very important. We are social beings after all. I do however believe these movements are a byproduct of the social, economic and cultural changes we have observed over the past 20 years. I'm just going to leave it at that...

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
5. You're wrong ;) The documentary is actually really interesting!
Mon Feb 25, 2019, 11:16 AM
Feb 2019

I'd love to know what you think after seeing it.

world wide wally

(21,742 posts)
6. Its like climate change deniers...
Mon Feb 25, 2019, 11:17 AM
Feb 2019

In the end, it doesn't matter what you think in the face of truth.
It IS what it IS... Period

DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
8. Their biggest problem is that these people are half-educated and proud of it.
Mon Feb 25, 2019, 11:36 AM
Feb 2019

They conduct their experiments, but lack the mathematical and physical background to understand what they are doing. That's how they end up with what seems to be scientific evidence to the uneducated and half-educated, but it's ultimately flawed and useless.

And when you insist that they do their experiments properly and precise, they counter that that's not necessary.



Oh, and any evidence that YOU cite has been faked by some evil worldwide conspiracy that revolves around NASA.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
9. A lot of them, yes, but surprisingly not all.
Mon Feb 25, 2019, 11:45 AM
Feb 2019

Some of them shown in the film do have the mathematical and physical background to understand what they are doing (which isn't saying they have PHDs or anything, but proving the earth is round doesn't requires that). The way it is portrayed in the film, at least, some of them are relatively intelligent people, who truly believe the world is flat, and they truly believe that a "proper" experiment will prove that, and they go to lengths to try to make their experiments as accurate as they can.

And they do a solid enough job that the experiments actually prove that the earth is indeed round.

What's interesting is that, after that, they don't believe the results of their own experiment. They keep trying to tweak it to get the results they were looking for.

DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
10. A saw a trailer for a similar documentary (don't know if it's this one)...
Mon Feb 25, 2019, 11:49 AM
Feb 2019

The trailer teased that the Flat-Earthers pooled their money to buy a state-of-the-art $20,000 gyroscope. The tried to prove that Earth doesn't rotate. They found in multiple measurements that Earth does rotate, 360° in 24h.

Later, the cameraman was at a party, where he filmed from afar one Flat-Earther whispering to another that they have found that Earth rotates, but that they cannot possibly publish this, because it would cause an outcry in the community.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
11. That experiment is in this movie, but not the coverage of the party, that I remember.
Mon Feb 25, 2019, 11:52 AM
Feb 2019

Yeah, it's funny, they got the whole expensive gyroscope, and they measured the earth's rotation pretty accurately. And then they were like, well this is a problem. So they tried again by encasing the gyroscope in some metal thing to protect it from the "energy from heaven" or whatever, and again the earth still rotated...

muriel_volestrangler

(101,311 posts)
19. No, it's not about that - it's that they think the inhabitants of the southern hemisphere are lying
Mon Feb 25, 2019, 05:13 PM
Feb 2019

as navigators would have had to, for hundreds of years. And that people in other time zones are lying to them.

The basic clue that the earth is a sphere is that stars in the southern hemisphere appear to go round a different pole - the celestial south pole, rather than the north one close to Polaris. And as you travel south, this becomes apparent. That's one big reason the Greeks started to figure it out - what travellers said the stars did as they went long distances.

Now, several southern hemisphere countries have the Southern Cross on their flags. Their inhabitants do not try and refute the reasoning that this tells you where the southern pole is. Equatorial countries can see there are 2 poles, even if one is just below the horizon for one of them. Flat earthers have to believe over a billion people are lying about this. And they have to believe that ocean navigators who have been using the stars to voyage in both hemispheres have been lying for centuries.

Since we've had telegraphs and telephones since the 19th century, they also have to think that all people using them to say the sun has set in one place, but not another, are also lying. And they have presumably never travelled far enough, fast enough, to experience jetlag.

(One flat earth claim is that the sun is actually a spotlight that doesn't set, just doesn't shine in all directions, and they claim this explains why noon is different in different places. That, however, denies that the sun goes below the horizon, which is the stupidest claim they come up with)

They don't need maths or physics to work it out. They just have to understand that there hasn't been a multi-century conspiracy to fool them, involving billions of people. If they weren't self-centered and paranoid, they'd understand it.

rppper

(2,952 posts)
32. I tried explaining the southern cross and...
Tue Feb 26, 2019, 08:24 PM
Feb 2019

...how we guessed range and direction on objects over the horizon to a few flat earthers...I always get the deer in the headlights stare.

TlalocW

(15,381 posts)
13. Some billionaire
Mon Feb 25, 2019, 01:57 PM
Feb 2019

Needs to give them a few million dollars so they can buy a sturdy research ship or whatever and sail using their own maps to where the edge of the Earth is supposed to be.

TlalocW

ProfessorGAC

(65,010 posts)
14. In This Time Of Jet Travel...
Mon Feb 25, 2019, 02:05 PM
Feb 2019

...wouldn't even the flat earth folks figure we found the edge by now?
How hard would it be to find?

TlalocW

(15,381 posts)
16. I doubt that there exists a pilot who believes the world is flat
Mon Feb 25, 2019, 02:11 PM
Feb 2019

Or if there is, he doesn't work much or never leaves the midwest on any of his/her flights.

It would probably take too long to train one of them to fly, but there are probably enough of them good enough with the mathematics involved with circles that if you stick them on a boat, they could verify headings and course to make sure the crew sails them to where the edge is supposed to be.

TlalocW

ProfessorGAC

(65,010 posts)
17. Not Talking About Pilots
Mon Feb 25, 2019, 02:20 PM
Feb 2019

Even transcontinental pilots don't fly a dead straight line because following the curvature saves time and fuel
But, just from the perspective of a flat earther, after 70 years of jet travel, why hasn't anybody found the edge?
That's why it's so silly.
OK, in 1500, a boat only traveled 300 miles on a very good day. So never getting to the edge could intellectually rationalized. "Takes forever" or something.
But, we know distances, have transoceanic airplanes at 645 mph, and we still haven't found the edge?
There's no way to rationalize that other than to acknowledge there is no edge, other than a psychopathy or willful ignorance!

TlalocW

(15,381 posts)
18. With my example
Mon Feb 25, 2019, 02:53 PM
Feb 2019

I put more of the power into the Flat-Earthers' hands. They would have excuses about air travel - the pilots are in on it, etc. Give them as much responsibility as possible for finding the edge - a boat with a crew (or manned themselves if some of them have the skillset) that does what they tell them to, and some FEs that are good at math, etc. Try to eliminate any excuse they could up with when it comes to someone being able to interfere with them.

TlalocW

ProfessorGAC

(65,010 posts)
20. Yeah, I Get It!
Tue Feb 26, 2019, 07:53 AM
Feb 2019

They still don't have any good reason someone hasn't found it yet, even if by accident.

lunatica

(53,410 posts)
24. It isn't about whether there is an edge for them to find
Tue Feb 26, 2019, 04:54 PM
Feb 2019

The proof is in the fact that when they travel in one direction away from their original spot they end up back in their original spot obviously coming from the opposite direction they first took off from.

If this doesn’t make a dent then nothing will, because they simply have no concept of physics even when it stares them in the face.

ProfessorGAC

(65,010 posts)
39. Huh?
Wed Feb 27, 2019, 07:03 AM
Feb 2019

I know there's no edge to find.
But, I'd like to make one of them explain why they haven't yet found the edge.
I suppose all 3 of us could convert one of them by making go east to find the edge until they get back to the same spot.
But the interesting part to me is to get them to tell me where they think the edge is!

lunatica

(53,410 posts)
42. I understand your point and I truly appreciate your efforts
Wed Feb 27, 2019, 01:09 PM
Feb 2019

but making them admit something that doesn’t exist for us is not proof to them that it doesn’t exist. It’s like trying to make them admit that god doesn’t exist. They don’t need, nor will they accept any proof contrary to their ‘belief’.

Their beliefs are proof enough. Alternative facts are real. Their opinions are rock solid facts to them. Their thinking is constantly reinforced by FOX, Hannity, Limbaugh, et al. And their thinking processes are like rubber bands that on occasion can be stretched to span more information but that will simply snap back to its original shape, automatically discarding any new information.

Even if you were able to get them to admit there is no proof of an edge to a flat Earth they would quickly settle back into the comfort of their beliefs without any vestige of the doubt you may have caused.


targetpractice

(4,919 posts)
21. Watching this... Kind of painful...
Tue Feb 26, 2019, 03:07 PM
Feb 2019

...Seems like these believers are looking for acceptance or to be important to others somehow. But, also they show a peculiar conservative psychological trait that if they haven't experienced something personally, then it must not be real. One woman in the documentary stated that she would not believe reports of another bombing like the Boston Marathon unless her "own leg was blown off."

Funny, that this tweet from Lawrence O’Donnell showed up this morning...


Ilsa

(61,695 posts)
22. "If it didn't happen to me, I don't have to believe it's true."
Tue Feb 26, 2019, 04:33 PM
Feb 2019

There are exceptions for them, of course, like Biblical history and the faith that extends from it.

Johnny2X2X

(19,060 posts)
23. I'll watch this
Tue Feb 26, 2019, 04:41 PM
Feb 2019

These people are not any different from those that think the earth is 6000 years old.

Is the basis of their beliefs for most of them the Bible? Because it talks about a tree or a tower that could be seen from every corner of the earth?

A lot of people are Christian and don't believe nonsense like a 6000 year old or a flat earth. But there are some pretty silly things you have to believe to call yourself a Christian even if you don't believe those two.

I always laugh when Christians criticize Scientology and its crazy as heck sounding story of origins. Scientology is zany and out there, but no more out there than Christianity.

yortsed snacilbuper

(7,939 posts)
25. Flat eather rides homemade rocket into the California sky!
Tue Feb 26, 2019, 05:02 PM
Feb 2019

“Mad” Mike Hughes’ home-made rocket launches near Amboy, Calif., on Saturday, March 24, 2018. The self-taught rocket scientist who believes the Earth is flat propelled himself about 1,875 feet into the air before a hard-landing in the Mojave Desert that left him injured.

Mad” Mike Hughes is carried on a stretcher after his home-made rocket launched and returned to the ground near Amboy, Calif., on Saturday, March 24, 2018. The self-taught rocket scientist who believes the Earth is flat propelled himself about 1,875 feet into the air before a hard-landing in the Mojave Desert that left him injured. Hughes tells The Associated Press that he injured his back but is otherwise fine after Saturday’s launch.

PoindexterOglethorpe

(25,853 posts)
29. I think I'll watch that!
Tue Feb 26, 2019, 06:32 PM
Feb 2019

Scientific and math ignorance is a genuine problem, one that should not exist, but sadly does.

qazplm135

(7,447 posts)
30. how do they explain the edge?
Tue Feb 26, 2019, 06:58 PM
Feb 2019

If the Earth is flat, there's an edge. At some point, you go in one direction and you reach the end. You can't go any further.

But we know that isn't true. If I go west (or North or South or East) in a plane, eventually, if I have enough fuel, I can end up right back where I started.

So how do they explain that?

 

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)
31. Easy ... It's cause you're wrong, and that doesn't really happen.
Tue Feb 26, 2019, 07:59 PM
Feb 2019

You just THINK you're constantly going in one direction, you see?

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
36. Umm, good question. The edge is in Antarctica.
Tue Feb 26, 2019, 09:23 PM
Feb 2019

And everyone who claims to have flown over Antarctica is a lying government agent.

At least that's the theory as I understand it.

qazplm135

(7,447 posts)
37. but you can only reach Antartica
Tue Feb 26, 2019, 09:25 PM
Feb 2019

flying south (or technically north if you keep going).

If you go East or West you will never reach it.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
38. Well, yeah, in reality that's true.
Tue Feb 26, 2019, 09:32 PM
Feb 2019

In "flat earth reality", if you flew from New York to California and then kept flying long enough in a straight line, eventually you'd reach Antarctica. It's just that nobody ever actually does that.

Johnny2X2X

(19,060 posts)
33. Just watched this
Tue Feb 26, 2019, 08:59 PM
Feb 2019

Wow, this explains so much about the problems we face in the world and the reason we face them.

This cult like thinking gave us Trump.

Strelnikov_

(7,772 posts)
35. Watched last night based on your recommendation
Tue Feb 26, 2019, 09:06 PM
Feb 2019

Thanks.

Connects the dots regarding the malfunction that is Republicanism and particularly Trumperism.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
41. Since you asked...
Wed Feb 27, 2019, 10:00 AM
Feb 2019

They think the sun and moon are round, and they move in a circle up above the flat earth. Basically the sun functions like a flashlight that illuminates half of the flat earth at once.

PoindexterOglethorpe

(25,853 posts)
43. One thing that was very frustrating about the documentary
Wed Feb 27, 2019, 09:59 PM
Feb 2019

was that the Flat Earthers kept on claiming to have proof the Earth is flat, but no proof of any kind was ever presented. They also seem to claim that NASA has apparently made everything up about every single space flight, without ever properly refuting NASA's claims.

If the Earth really had an edge, it would have long ago been discovered, even aside from the truly amusing joke that cats would have pushed everything over the edge by now.

Toward the end of the film someone does ask Mark why don't they just mount an expedition to find the edge, and he says that they are raising money to do so.

And the only two experiments they show, the gyroscope one and the laser beam one, both clearly indicate the Earth's surface is curved, and therefore presumably round.

I have absolutely no patience with this kind of willful ignorance. Luckily no one has ever been dumb enough to tell me they believe the Earth is flat. I'd say Prove It. Go to the edge and take some photographs.

Notice also how many Flat Earthers are also anti-vaxxers and say that evolution isn't real, and that dinosaurs are fictitious. Oh, the stupidity!

llmart

(15,536 posts)
46. And the moon landing never happened and was all staged.
Wed Feb 27, 2019, 11:17 PM
Feb 2019

My time's too valuable to me to waste on trying to convince these types they're wrong. They are willfully ignorant.

PoindexterOglethorpe

(25,853 posts)
48. I had a discussion with My Son the Astronomer
Thu Feb 28, 2019, 01:40 AM
Feb 2019

about this. He simply expressed similar frustration.

He's currently in a PhD program in astronomy, and while he's aware of Flat Earthers, has never come in contact with any. Neither have I. I doubt I'd be very civil to any.

Complete side note: My Son the Astronomer is a WONDERFUL resource. I constantly call him up, okay, I send a text message first inquiring if Ask the Astronomer is taking calls, and then I ask him whatever. Most recent conversation had to do with Dark Matter and why we think it exists. What I like best about him (aside from the fact he is my wonderful son) is that he is incredibly good at explaining cosmology and astrophysics and astronomy and all sorts of similar things in terms his mom can understand. Sometimes I have to ask him additional questions, and among the things I like best is that I'll ask something and he'll say, "I don't really know". He NEVER tries to bs me or pretend he knows more than he does. Maybe all people in his field are like that. I hope so. Because being able to say, "I don't know" is crucial.

Other times, as in our conversation this evening that had to do with Flat Earth and the curvature of the Earth, I asked him to please find out a bit more for me and let me know.

Everyone should have a similar research.

Okay, so now I have a LOT of questions about dinosaurs. Anyone here an expert in that field?

llmart

(15,536 posts)
51. What a coincidence!
Thu Feb 28, 2019, 08:43 AM
Feb 2019

My son is so much like yours. He was identified as gifted very early in his life (around 3rd grade), was always interested in anything and everything, especially math and science. He's now what I like to call a "rocket scientist" at NASA. That's not his official title of course, but what mother doesn't want to say her child's a rocket scientist?

I don't even pretend to know what he actually does. But like you, whenever I have a question about something I ask him and he too is very, very good at explaining things on a level and in terms "regular" people can understand. He of course despises any people who think the moon landing was faked.

You and I are very lucky to have such interesting sons. My son was quite a challenge for me as a mother because he was always wanting to try anything and everything that interested him, so I encouraged that. But I also had to balance keeping him humble and teach him how to interact with all kinds of people. I'm most proud that I succeeded in that. I've never met a more empathetic man who is kind, polite, a liberal Democrat who cares about everyone who's less fortunate than he.

BannonsLiver

(16,370 posts)
44. Whenever I see these people
Wed Feb 27, 2019, 10:24 PM
Feb 2019

I begin to ponder the merits of long term population control, specifically to prevent them from reproducing. The stupidity makes me angry.

llmart

(15,536 posts)
47. I will never forget a wonderful line in the old TV series "ER".
Wed Feb 27, 2019, 11:19 PM
Feb 2019

One of the EMT's on the show said to another one after saving some stupid idiot's life who had done some stupid stunt, "Stupid people shouldn't be allowed to breed." I still laugh at that one and have never forgotten it.

nolabear

(41,960 posts)
45. But...what do they say about the thousands of flights that go around it
Wed Feb 27, 2019, 10:59 PM
Feb 2019

on a regular basis? I mean, nothing works? Radar doesn’t work? Cellular signals? None of those things are real? Those satellites aren’t circling anything? Magellan fell off the edge? Seriously, it’s all a big old hallucination?

PoindexterOglethorpe

(25,853 posts)
49. Exactly.
Thu Feb 28, 2019, 01:48 AM
Feb 2019

What was very frustrating about that film was the lack of specifics. What exactly do they think constitutes proof that the Earth is flat? Why do they reject all of the thousands (and yes, it really is thousands) of years of proof the Earth is round?

If the Earth were flat, we'd be able to see Europe from the east coast with strong binoculars. Or Japan from the west coast. Why can't we?

Not to mention the very basic: as ships are approaching land, we see the top of their sails first, then the body of the sails, then the ship itself. That alone proves the Earth's surface is curved. How do they explain that away?

And to believe that every single thing NASA has done from the beginning is simply fraud, just boggles the mind.

Oh, and every time someone says that the Moon landing was faked, I want to point out that apparently they also faked several hundred hours of transmissions between NASA and the Apollo mission. More to the point, if the first landing was faked, we'd have never gone back. But we did. Five more times. No one ever seems to have tried to claim the additional five landings were likewise faked. It's as if they have zero knowledge of them. Which is probably the case.

Besides, if the Earth were really flat, then show me the edge. It's up to you, Flat Earther, to prove your claim. NOT up to me to disprove it.

Initech

(100,068 posts)
50. Well the difference between flat earthers and the alt right...
Thu Feb 28, 2019, 02:07 AM
Feb 2019

The Alt Right are scary, dangerous, and delusional. The Flat Earthers are just delusional.

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