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octoberlib

(14,971 posts)
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 07:17 PM Mar 2019

Boeing 737 Max 8 pilots complained to feds for months about suspected safety flaw

Pilots repeatedly voiced safety concerns about the Boeing 737 Max 8 to federal authorities, with one captain calling the flight manual "inadequate and almost criminally insufficient" several months before Sunday's Ethiopian Air crash that killed 157 people, an investigation by The Dallas Morning News found.

The complaints are about the safety mechanism cited in preliminary reports for an October plane crash in Indonesia that killed 189. The disclosures found by The News reference problems during Boeing 737 Max 8 flights with an autopilot system, and they all occurred while trying to gain altitude during takeoff -- many mentioned the plane turning nose down suddenly. While records show these flights occurred during October and November, the information about which airlines the pilots were flying for is redacted from the database.


At least 18 carriers — including American Airlines and Southwest Airlines, the two largest U.S. carriers flying the 737 Max 8 — have also declined to ground planes, saying they are confident in the safety and "airworthiness" of their fleets. American and Southwest have 24 and 34 of the aircraft in their fleets, respectively.

The fifth complaint from the captain who called into question the 737 Max 8's flight manual ended: "The fact that this airplane requires such jury-rigging to fly is a red flag. Now we know the systems employed are error-prone — even if the pilots aren't sure what those systems are, what redundancies are in place and failure modes. I am left to wonder: what else don't I know?"

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/airlines/2019/03/12/boeing-737-max-8-pilots-complained-feds-months-suspected-safety-flaw

35 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Boeing 737 Max 8 pilots complained to feds for months about suspected safety flaw (Original Post) octoberlib Mar 2019 OP
But, but, but... Lefta Dissenter Mar 2019 #1
It is always "Pilot Error" anyway LiberalArkie Mar 2019 #3
Did Boeing say the Autopilot system was "fine"? maxsolomon Mar 2019 #4
Finally someone picks up on articles at The Air Current..see #5 comment on thread..n/t asiliveandbreathe Mar 2019 #10
the one from "asd"? maxsolomon Mar 2019 #14
Unbelievable malaise Mar 2019 #2
See links #5 comment Malaise - is an OMG....n/t asiliveandbreathe Mar 2019 #6
Thanks for these links malaise Mar 2019 #11
The Air Current article..with important links w/i - China has ground 737 Max 8 fleet.. asiliveandbreathe Mar 2019 #5
Thanks for the links! octoberlib Mar 2019 #9
Informative articles. So the MAX8 was developed and rushed into service due octoberlib Mar 2019 #15
Yup, and they have 5,000 orders outstanding DrToast Mar 2019 #16
Rachel discussing this now malaise Mar 2019 #20
How silly of them to complain -- they're not the ones who own Congress. nt gateley Mar 2019 #7
From Air Current octoberlib Mar 2019 #13
I'm guessing Trump isn't the only one who Boeing has been generous with. nt gateley Mar 2019 #19
Wonder if Air force 1 is a 737......hmmmmm. n/t dixiegrrrrl Mar 2019 #21
It isnt. The Truth Is Here Mar 2019 #33
Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System Dennis Donovan Mar 2019 #8
Yes...ground the 737 Max 8....see comment #5 on this thread...n/t.... asiliveandbreathe Mar 2019 #12
passengers could refuse to board such aircraft. do pilots have a union? nt msongs Mar 2019 #17
They should. I know I will and yes , the pilots union is ALPA. octoberlib Mar 2019 #18
This will only change when Boeing loses $$$$$. BigmanPigman Mar 2019 #22
This doesn't sound good. nt Honeycombe8 Mar 2019 #23
Cancel your flights on these planes, folks. roamer65 Mar 2019 #24
Guess I'll be avoiding Southwest Airlines (my fav carrier) for awhile until this gets resolved. Liberal In Texas Mar 2019 #25
Pilots have all the power in the world liberal N proud Mar 2019 #26
bingo. nt ecstatic Mar 2019 #31
today trump basically tweeted mercuryblues Mar 2019 #27
Lets hope that black box data from this flight yields some answers quickly. CentralMass Mar 2019 #28
$8.8B of your tax ollars fund TSA. Apparently none of that actually goes towards fixing problems. nt MadDAsHell Mar 2019 #29
Very disturbing. Watching Rachel now. The problem with the "oh, just disengage autopilot" response ecstatic Mar 2019 #30
According to Air Current, the problem is the engine is too powerful for the plane. octoberlib Mar 2019 #35
K&R!!! burrowowl Mar 2019 #32
Our greed is killing us. Our greed is killing the planet. lindysalsagal Mar 2019 #34

maxsolomon

(33,327 posts)
14. the one from "asd"?
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 07:52 PM
Mar 2019

if it's the reason, it's a big problem for Boeing, not Lion Air, and they know it. if it caused the EA crash, too, it's an even bigger problem and grounding the fleet is appropriate.

but the DU conspiracy-mongering and accusations of racism are still over the top. that system was installed to help pilots, not kill "peons".

asiliveandbreathe

(8,203 posts)
5. The Air Current article..with important links w/i - China has ground 737 Max 8 fleet..
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 07:31 PM
Mar 2019
https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safety/chinas-aviation-regulator-orders-grounding-of-737-max/

Article is protected..no cut/paste...

https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safety/what-is-the-boeing-737-max-maneuvering-characteristics-augmentation-system-mcas-jt610/


The captain is right....
The fifth complaint from the captain who called into question the 737 Max 8's flight manual ended: "The fact that this airplane requires such jury-rigging to fly is a red flag.


Lots of info now coming out - thhis link is new at The Air Current....


https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safety/the-world-pulls-the-andon-cord-on-the-737-max/

octoberlib

(14,971 posts)
15. Informative articles. So the MAX8 was developed and rushed into service due
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 07:53 PM
Mar 2019

to competition with Airbus and market share. Who cares if they're safe to fly? Unbelievable.

octoberlib

(14,971 posts)
13. From Air Current
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 07:50 PM
Mar 2019

"BoeIng CEO Dennis Muilenburg spoke with President Trump earlier Tuesday urging him not to ground the jet"


Ted Cruz and Mitt Romney, surprisingly, have come out in favor of grounding the planes ,according to the Dallas News. Trump is the one keeping them from being grounded.

Dennis Donovan

(18,770 posts)
8. Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 07:33 PM
Mar 2019
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maneuvering_Characteristics_Augmentation_System

The Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS) is a feature on Boeing 737 MAX aircraft intended to prevent stalls in flaps-retracted, low-speed, nose-up flight. The MCAS uses airspeed and other sensor data to compute when a dangerous condition has developed and then trims the aircraft nose down.

History
Stall warning horns were invented in the 1930s. In the 1960s, a stick shaker was first installed to notify the pilot more forcefully than the horn. With the introduction of fly-by-wire systems in airliners, it became possible to alter the feel of the control in the pilot's hands depending on flight regime, or even to override the pilot's commands when the flight computer(s) senses a dangerous condition, including an incipient stall.

Airbus led Boeing in adoption of systems that would not permit a pilot to put an airliner in a dangerous regime. Airbus introduced flight control laws with the A320 in 1988. In 1995, Boeing introduced a similar system in the 777 that could be overridden by the pilot.

Accidents in MCAS-equipped Boeing 737 MAX aircraft
While there have been two crashes of MCAS-equipped aircraft, in neither case has a final report been issued that implicates the system.

Lion Air Flight 610
Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302: While this aircraft was equipped with MCAS, there is no indication as of March 12, 2019 that it was implicated in the crash.
Boeing reaction
Boeing cited an Indonesian finding that the Lion Air crash was a maintenance failure.

Boeing introduced a software upgrade that notifies pilots of a failure of an angle-of-attack sensor, a crucial component of the MCAS system. It will be deployed to aircraft operators "in the coming weeks," the company said on March 11, 2019.


I really think they should ground any aircraft still flying until the software upgrades takes place.

octoberlib

(14,971 posts)
18. They should. I know I will and yes , the pilots union is ALPA.
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 08:29 PM
Mar 2019

The air attendants union told their members they could refuse to fly if they feel unsafe on the plane . ALPA has "raised concerns".

The union representing American Airlines flight attendants issued a bulletin Monday telling members they will not be forced to work on Boeing 737 MAX airplanes after the crash of an Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX 8 Sunday, the second of that model to go down in less than six months.

“It is important for you to know that if you feel it is unsafe to work the 737 Max, you will not be forced to fly it,” wrote Lori Bassani, national president of the Association of Professional Flight Attendants, which represents more than 27,000 American Airlines flight attendants.

Unions representing pilots raised concerns last fall after a 737 Max 8 operated by Lion Air crashed in the Java Sea off Indonesia shortly after takeoff. They criticized Boeing for failing to disclose a new automatic safety feature on the plane that repeatedly pulled the plane's nose down as the pilots struggled to control the plane, Indonesian investigators found.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/03/11/american-airlines-flight-attendants-union-has-concerns-737-max-ethiopian-airlines-safety/3130431002/

BigmanPigman

(51,588 posts)
22. This will only change when Boeing loses $$$$$.
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 09:45 PM
Mar 2019

That is always the bottom line...$$$$$. People's lives, no big feal. Fewer profits, very big deal.

roamer65

(36,745 posts)
24. Cancel your flights on these planes, folks.
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 10:09 PM
Mar 2019

Demand to be put on a safer plane or cancel. That is the only thing that will bring attention needed.

Liberal In Texas

(13,548 posts)
25. Guess I'll be avoiding Southwest Airlines (my fav carrier) for awhile until this gets resolved.
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 10:29 PM
Mar 2019

And American.

The return of the old tombstone regulations again come to the fore.

liberal N proud

(60,334 posts)
26. Pilots have all the power in the world
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 10:33 PM
Mar 2019

Without pilots, this world grinds to a stop.

Pilots refuse to fly, authorities would remedy the problem quickly

mercuryblues

(14,531 posts)
27. today trump basically tweeted
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 10:37 PM
Mar 2019

that pilots are basically too stupid to fly the planes. Nothing about the loss of life or condolences to the families.

CentralMass

(15,265 posts)
28. Lets hope that black box data from this flight yields some answers quickly.
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 11:00 PM
Mar 2019

From the outside looking in this "MCAS" system thar the plane has seems suspect.

ecstatic

(32,695 posts)
30. Very disturbing. Watching Rachel now. The problem with the "oh, just disengage autopilot" response
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 11:52 PM
Mar 2019

is that the initial nose dive might be too violent to recover from, rendering the whole plane unstable, etc. Sometimes even when you know how to respond to an event, the event can happen in such a way where you don't even get the opportunity to react or stop the next series of events.

octoberlib

(14,971 posts)
35. According to Air Current, the problem is the engine is too powerful for the plane.
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 06:52 AM
Mar 2019

This causes the nose to tilt upward in flight and stall so Boeing came up with the autopilot fix to correct the upward nose tilt. This is what the pilot in the article meant by the plane's system being jury-rigged. The plane basically has a huge design flaw.

lindysalsagal

(20,679 posts)
34. Our greed is killing us. Our greed is killing the planet.
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 05:41 AM
Mar 2019

This is human error: The capitalist system where share holders' interests are paramount, and profits override safety.

Gee. Not very socialist, is it????

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