Brexit will mark the end of Britain's role as a great power

[RandySF]

One of the great strengths of democracy is that bad policies are often reversed. That’s a consolation when we look at the flurry of pandering programs being enacted as the populist wave works its way through the Western world. When a new government is elected, things can be undone. Except for Brexit, which, if it goes through, might prove to be the most profound legacy of this decade.

Britain, famous for its prudence, propriety and punctuality, is suddenly looking like a banana republic as it makes reckless decisions, misrepresents reality and now wants to change its own self-imposed deadline. But if it does leave the European Union, it would be bad news for Britain, Europe and the West.

As Martin Sandbu writes in the Political Quarterly, Brexit has always been “a solution in search of a problem.” To me, the best evidence of this is that Britain’s Euroskeptics generally want to leave the E.U. because they see it as a statist juggernaut. In virtually every other member country, Euroskeptics dislike the E.U. because they see it as a free-market juggernaut. So either all of those other countries have it backward, or Britain’s Conservatives have gone nuts.

When I asked my Post colleague Anne Applebaum what historians would look at when trying to understand the road to Brexit, she suggested it all centers on the Conservative Party.



https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/brexit-will-mark-the-end-of-britains-role-as-a-great-power/2019/03/14/5df139fa-468c-11e9-8aab-95b8d80a1e4f_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.bf455076a6e6

[applegrove]

1. Seems to be a piece to hit the PM over the head. I agree. Wake up!

[applegrove]

3. Many freely admit they had no idea what they were voting for.

[RandySF]

4. It was non-binding and they may have a second vote

Hopefully Nigel Farage is throughly discredited by now.

[roamer65]

10. Yes, non-binding and they should just ignore it.

[pnwmom]

34. There is nothing undemocratic about giving them the chance to vote again,

now that they know more about the issue. And about who and what influenced the vote last time.

[dewsgirl]

5. I bet Putin is the happiest @sshole in the world,

right about now.

[RandySF]

7. There's no legal requirement to follow through with wrecking the country.

It was a non-binding vote.

[pnwmom]

35. That's your opinion. You won't find any definition of democracy, however,

that would preclude a revote a year later, especially after finding out that an election was interfered with.

[Mariana]

36. Which vote?

Do you mean the non-binding referendum that is years old now? People often change their minds when they're given new information - like, say, that the only Brexit deal they're going to get sucks.

In my state, we've had several binding votes over the years about legalizing marijuana. They failed until one didn't. I take it you don't consider that to be democratic, either. We should have just voted one time, and never, ever attempted to put the question on the ballot again, right?

[roamer65]

12. It was a non-binding referendum.

The results of it can be ignored. If the British people don’t like it, they can voice their opinion in the next parliamentary election.

[fleabiscuit]

18. Actually it is a great reason for a redo. Better information now. nt

[Eyeball_Kid]

22. How is it that the will of the people will perish with a second vote?

If there is enough of a reason to believe that the Brexit election was unduly influenced by foreign agents or by multiple forms of deception and misinformation, and the UK educates itself of the interference, then votes again and, again votes for Brexit, then the will of the people will have their way.

But that won't happen because the UK body politic hasn't explored the consequences of Brexit thoroughly. Most economists view Brexit as suicidal. That projected result has to land fully in the minds of UK citizens. If so, there will be no Brexit.

[Mariana]

41. It won't. That's a ridiculous argument.

By that reasoning, it's "undemocratic" for elected officials to have to run for re-election. The people have spoken, and the person they elected should just remain in place until he or she retires or dies.

[pnwmom]

37. If a revote changes the results, then THAT is the will of the people.

It won't have been cast aside. It will merely have been changed, over time, as important information came to light.

[roamer65]

9. Brexit will be the end of the UK itself.

Scotland will separate and join the EU. I can see Northern Ireland beginning reunification talks within a couple of years.

[roamer65]

13. Casting aside the EU will end the the UK itself.

The UK needs to stay in the EU. You also need to dump the pound and join the Eurozone.

[RandySF]

15. Are there any additional thoughts you'd like to add?

[fleabiscuit]

19. That makes no sense.

[pnwmom]

38. If a democratic election overturns a previous election, that is a sign the system is working.

Democracies are supposed to be flexible enough to adapt to changing times. That's why, in the US, we have new elections for the House every 2 years, and for the President every 4 years. And it's why if a referendum fails one year, it can be voted on again in a subsequent year.

It's odd that a "Young Socrates" doesn't seem to understand that Socrates hated democracy. Or maybe that's the point.

[fleabiscuit]

20. Russians vote.

[DRoseDARs]

21. We think you're something, alright. And you can actually respond to individual posts instead of

re-replying to the thread. And so far, you haven't responded to any of the points made in those posts.

[DRoseDARs]

26. The original vote was carried out in very bad faith. The Leave campaign provided almost no info...

...to English voters, but their Scottish brethren to the north received a whole lot of info and projections and unsurprisingly voted Hell No. And it's been long know that the Leave campaign has questionable ties to Russia. Set all that aside and just look at the referendum itself. As has been stated several times, it has zero legal standing. It was a non-binding advisory vote, which is NOT democracy it's an opinion poll. As has become thunderously clear to all, Brexit itself is a terrible idea, the Leave campaign operated in bad faith, the Party has not and cannot get its shit together even after 2 years since the *non-binding* advisory vote, and the whole thing is just batshit insane.

[renate]

24. I think you joined DU today and you like Tulsi Gabbard

Both of these things are totally okay and fine and raise no suspicion whatsoever.

Welcome to DU!

[Rhiannon12866]

31. No, the majority of us are still undecided.

And you're welcome to choose any Democrat who's running - and you're free to change your mind anytime. Welcome to DU.

[pnwmom]

39. Socrates didn't believe in democracy. It's odd that you chose that for a screen name. n/t

[RandySF]

28. Reasonable, or agree with you on Brexit?

[DRoseDARs]

32. Yet you continue to ignore on-topic points being made. And this site has been attacked before.

We've been subjected to DOS attacks, most significantly election night 2016, and sporadically over 19 years, to say nothing of conservative trolls that sign up daily to disrupt.

[pnwmom]

47. It seems as if we might be getting more of these lately. n/t

[DRoseDARs]

30. I want to believe that wasn't what it appeared, but they certainly aren't helpn make their own case.

[pnwmom]

40. Glad to see the troll is gone. n/t

[DRoseDARs]

42. It is unfortunate an earlier Poster had a post hidden here. I was an initial jurer but opted out.

I regret that now. It was early and I wasn't convinced of anything yet beyond the guy's newness. Poster called them a Russian troll and of course "forgive me I'm new and don't know how to do anything" easily figured out how to report Poster to a jury, and now the guy is banned outright for being a troll of some sort just as was said all along. I would hope that whoever pulled the plug on the guy can also rescind Poster's hide, or at least have it stricken from their profile record.

[Rhiannon12866]

43. It doesn't work that way, unfortunately

A hide with so few posts results in Flagged for Review and only the admins can rescind that.

[pnwmom]

44. I think the DUer was regretting that s/he said yes to a hide for a different poster,

whom the troll had alerted on.

[Rhiannon12866]

45. Thanks!

[DRoseDARs]

48. Yeah, Poster was because I couldn't remember exactly the name, but is established here on DU.

The other one joined a few hours ago and only started posting in this thread.

[marble falls]

56. I was in the same situation myself. I went to the edge with a comment about a someone ...

who was trolling and I got a hide and the troll got a ban.

In 90 days my hide was "off" my record. The worst that happened was I a bit embarrassed and I was locked off the the OP.

Admin sees what happens here and if its unfair they fix it. I admit: my hide was fair. I did go too far. The troll was treated fairly, too.

[pnwmom]

46. Maybe if the person with the hide sees what happened, s/he will appeal the hide.

I was on a jury, too, but something about the alert seemed off to me. Apparently I guessed right.

[DRoseDARs]

50. Do you think the troll started alert spamming? Or did you end up in the spot I declined?

Night Shift DU does have a smaller pool of potential jurors, so that's possible too.

[OnDoutside]

33. It is an oxymoron as some suggest that a second Referendum is undemocratic.Britain had a referendum

nearly 3 years ago, and in that time the People have discovered the height of shite that they would be in, if they continued down that road. It is entirely reasonable to ask the question now, as to whether they really want to follow through with this or back out of it.

Brexiters continually spout "Will of the People, Will of the People !" like some spoilt child, fearing a 2nd Referendum result now that people know so much more. If they were confident, they'd welcome a 2nd Referendum.

[DFW]

49. Brexiters are so similar to our Republicans in that regard

They are terrified of a fair election/referendum being held, because they know they'd lose. They therefore do everything in their power to prevent the popular will from prevailing.

Living in Germany, I understand much of the anti-EU sentiment in the UK. The EU bureaucracy is crushing, overwhelming, extremely wasteful and often somewhere between useless and counter-productive. It gives ridiculously generous pensions to all former EU parliament members and commission members, many of whom do nothing. It allows boats of all EU members to fish Britain's waters dry. Still, Brexit leaves the UK on the outside of the universal EU market, and it has scared vital banking and financial centers right out of London, heading for Dublin, Paris and Frankfurt. I don't think it was a wise trade-off. Over New Year's, I was talking with an (apparently, anyway--I had never met her before) informed UK journalist named June Sarpong (UK members--ever heard of her?), and we agreed on just about every aspect of Brexit, so I am not completely off the wall here.

[JustAnotherGen]

51. Question for you

Having a brother in law and his family in Germany - and the other three siblings in law and their families in Italy -

Do you have anxiety about them staying in through the next EU elections?

I "get" my in-laws take on this. Anxiety about folks who are all in having a voice in fixing the problems you outlined above - only to leave anyways.

IE Why should we trust you?

Flip side - a childhood friend married a Brit in the banking industry - and they are being transferred to Dublin with those investment accounts. She became a citizen just in time to vote stay.

[DFW]

58. None, really

Germany would never want to leave. Its dedication to the EU reassures its neighbors that notions of another attempt at conquest are truly dead and buried. Plus, it removes any possibility of the other EU countries erecting customs barriers to the products of the most powerful exporter on the Continent.

Italy's economy is a basket case, so they need Germany's largesse to stay afloat.

The Brexit voters (not the organizers of the movement, who had, in my view, a different agenda) saw the problems as ones that the EU would never overcome internally, and therefore not worth trying to fix from within. They see the EU's leaden bureaucracy as too far gone to fix.

I have heard Dublin is charming, but I have never been there. I had the luxury of picking my city when I moved over here, and Düsseldorf's central location (for my work, anyway) was ideal--great train and air connections to places I often have to be. If we had to move at this point, I think my wife would go berserk.

[JustAnotherGen]

59. Thank you

Managing the Global Trade for a hyper scale data company - I'm at a loss.

My brother in laws just want UK out - they don't want them at play in this year's ST elections or decisions.

[OnDoutside]

53. You are completely right. Yes the EU as an institution is flawed, and I would prefer to see the UK

stay in the EU, working to improve it. The EU needs that counterbalance while the UK needs the Single Market.

As it happens, I might be joining an American pharma company, who have a UK base but now have bought an Irish plant to stay within the EU. My wife works for another American pharma company who are in the process of moving some of their testing, that is currently done in the UK, to Ireland. My cousin is a employment lawyer in London (especially in the Financial sector), and quite a number have long since left for Paris to set up advance offices.

[Denzil_DC]

63. It IS flawed, but most of what Brexiteers object to was enacted as a result of UK pressure!

Not least under Thatcher and her handbag regime.

See here: https://politicalscrapbook.net/2017/07/american-tells-bizarre-story-of-how-britain-went-from-leading-the-eu-to-leaving-it-in-one-epic-twitter-plea-to-rethink-brexit/

Maybe the objectors could point me to any political setup in the world that isn't flawed, more or less deeply.

Babies and bathwater come to mind.

[Mike Nelson]

52. "...as it makes reckless decisions, misrepresents reality..."

… sounds like a certain US President... The UK should remain in the EU and solve problems together. Everyone is Stronger Together... separating ourselves from each other brings weakness.

[BeyondGeography]

54. Don't it always seem to go

That you don’t know what you’ve got til it’s gone

[Voltaire2]

55. WWII was the end of the UK as a great power.

[lark]

57. PUtin smirks with glee at the success of his worldwide devastation plans.

Major tools in place -

Drumpf & Republican party - active assets to destroy America and NATO in favor of oligarchs, especially Russian ones
Farage - active asset to destroy Britain and EU
Fox, Sky News - active media asset to stoke the right wing flames to destroy workers in favor of oligarchs worldwide

[Denzil_DC]

60. This is fascinating. I've never seen so many "Name removed" and "Post removed" in one short thread.

I'm late to the thread, so I don't know whether these were DU members in good standing who just seemingly have the wrong end of the stick on Brexit, or whether they were blow-ins/maybe bots.

I do know that immediately after the vote, we Brits on DU had a lively few weeks when we had to constantly beat back against the idea that Brexit was logical/politically defensible/a beatback against "corporatism"/neoliberalism whatever.

Some who put forward such views are still here, and they're entitled to their opinions, much as I disagree with them. Most have gone, either to JPR and beyond or just summarily FFR'd.

If someone wants to DU mail me if they know the history of any of the removed posts in these replies above, I'd be interested and grateful.

If they're not just from (IMO, obviously) misguided genuine DUers, then I'd be intrigued to know where the impetus for this influx of pro-Brexit messaging comes from and who's funding it.

[RandySF]

61. I think we had a bot.

[Denzil_DC]

62. Thanks, RandySF.

Reading between the lines since I posted, it looks like most if not all were just the one "newbie".

We have some quite rabid Brexiters in the UK, but why anybody of that mind would find it wothrwhile to post on such a predominantly US-oriented forum, I've no idea.

It's a shame they didn't find the UK DU group, where we'd have no doubt given them a very warm welcome!