The Way We Were: This is inspired by the increased interest here and elsewhere

[Smarmie Doofus]

.. in the question of what is rape and what is not.

In The Way We Were, the Streisand character ... long burning w. love/lust for the consistently uninterested Redford character.... maneuvers the utterly inebriated Redford via taxi to her bachelorette lair after a chance meeting at a NYC club in the middle of WWII.
(They knew each other years earlier but were never romantically involved. Much to her regret; not to his.)


She plans a more conventional... and presumably civilized...seduction: she makes coffee for the two of him while he's getting violently sick in the bathroom. She comes out of the kitchen to find him... stripped naked and out like a light ( what they used to call "dead drunk&quot in her bed.

Crestfallen... she carefully considers her options. After due deliberation, she decides to remove all of her clothing, slide into bed next to the naked and thoroughly unconscious Redford and gently prods him into semi-conscious state. He groggily and gradually assumes the top position. His back is the the camera. His face is not shown. Her's is.

It is implied that he performs sexually to an extent that is satisfactory to the Streisand character.

Many people know the scene. Is this rape? If so... by whom against whom? (No one asks permission; no one says "no". (He appears to be incapable of saying no; she clearly wants "it " ( i.e. sex) to happen --- yet at no time does she grant verbal permission.)

If it is she... who essentially rapes him ( if you accept a working definition rape as including "inability to consent&quot are there any mitigating circumstances?

What about the reverse? Is he responsible for not gaining consent?

Does the fact that the films douses the scene w. a gentle, romantic, Marvin Hamlisch score make us feel less inclined to call a "rape" a rape?

Are we that simple-minded and easily manipulated?

[monmouth]

1. What a great post!...I'm running out now to get some butter for the popcorn...n/t

[Smarmie Doofus]

2. Relax. You didn't miss much. Though I'm not sure why.

Perhaps we are loathe to deal w. political "don't touch it, it's the third rail!!!" topics ( i.e. rape, in this case) even when there are completely honest and sincere grounds to question/examine conventional wisdom.

If so, that's a shame... and it doesn't say much for the quality of the dialogue here lately.

[grasswire]

3. I've never seen that movie.

But I think I will.

[Smarmie Doofus]

4. Great film... in spite of itself.

Meaning, many production problems and political issues that were unresolvable which result in logical gaps in the story line.

But well worth the effort, in spite of its flaws. And its "rape" scene... if one wants to call it that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Way_We_Were

[Honeycombe8]

7. Good movie. nt

[treestar]

5. Women can rape men

that scenario sounds like it.

[Honeycombe8]

8. Nope. Rape involves force or duress.

Neither was involved. She offered herself up, and he actively engaged (saying "yes&quot . Unlike when women who are drunk and passed out....if they are just lying there, not actively performing....that can be considered rape (although not always)....she is not saying "yes." She's not implying yes or saying yes....she's passed out!

Men can be anally and statutorily raped, however.

This post shows an extreme misunderstanding of what rape is.

[treestar]

9. It's a movie scenario, but how does he really consent?

Men can actively perform and still be raped - but then I learned that in other TV show scenarios.

[Honeycombe8]

13. Not when they're adults, according to the definition. Now, if you want to make up your own

rules, that's anothr matter.

He did more than lie there, passed out. HE was the one who took the initiative for sex. Not her. She set it up in that she was THERE, ready. But that's all she did. SHE was the one who just laid there, waiting for him to make a move. And he did.

Why are men jealous they can't be raped in the same way that women are? That's strange.

If you're a minor, you can be raped, even if the minor agrees because legally, a minor cannot consent, ipso facto.

[treestar]

15. Here's an interesting article

http://www.askmen.com/dating/love_tip_3800/3838_men-raped-by-women.html

Some interesting discussion there.

[Spider Jerusalem]

17. No, rape involves lack of consent

your post shows an extreme misunderstanding, if anyone's does. Or perhaps it's reflective of the extreme backwardness of rape laws in much of the US (in several US states, Federally, and in many EU countries, "non-consensual sex" is rape under the law).

http://circuit4.blogspot.co.uk/2008/07/rape-via-lack-of-consent-is-forcible.html

[Smarmie Doofus]

21. +1. 'Swat I'm sayin'. n/t

[Honeycombe8]

6. That's just stupid. Look up the definition:

rape
1    [reyp] Show IPA noun, verb, raped, rap·ing.

noun
1.
the unlawful compelling of a person through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.

2.
any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.

3.
statutory rape.

4.
an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation: the rape of the countryside.

5.
Archaic . the act of seizing and carrying off by force.

verb (used with object)
6.
to force to have sexual intercourse.

7.
to plunder (a place); despoil.

8.
to seize, take, or carry off by force.


For the most part, men cannot be raped unless they are under age (statutory rape). If you seduce someone, and they are cognizant enough to say "yes" by implication (in that the male actually proactively engages in sex....he is not passed out and he doesn't just lie there)...that is not rape.

He can be anally raped, however.

[Smarmie Doofus]

10. So the Redford character's plainly diminished capacity is completely irrelevant. Yes? n/t

[Honeycombe8]

16. Ha! Having dated hundreds of men, I can tell you that a man being drunk...

is absolutely no impediment to his making advances. Quite the opposite.

And that was the case in the scene the OP posted about. HE made the moves. She was just there, naked, available.

It's like the joke told by Harrison Ford in 7 Days and Nights (or whatever the name was): He is making fun of the women's magazine she is editor of, mocking the catchy headline on the cover, "How To Get Your Man Interested in Sex." He says, "I'll tell you what a woman does to get a man interested in having sex with her. She shows up."

[4th law of robotics]

11. Cool so drunk women are fair game then?

I mean if they don't actively resist it isn't really rape. Right?

Flip the genders in this scenario. No one here would deny that it is rape.

[Honeycombe8]

12. Redford did more than not resist. He was proactive.

If they had sex, that is.

If you recall the scene, she may have slipped into bed naked, but HE was the one who did the advancing and took the initiative to have sex. Not her. Check out the beginning at about 0.56 in this video.

This isn't a good example for your point. These were two people who cared for each other and were falling in love.

[Smarmie Doofus]

20. The clip is misleading. See my post below or rent the video.

Plus... she's already in love. He's barely civil to her the morning after. ( "It's your hair. It's your hair that's different." ) He doesn't start returning her affections until their next NYC encounter, where she strokes his ego by raving about his book. ( The way to a man's heart.....) That's on his SECOND NYC stayover at Katie's.

[Honeycombe8]

18. You're not familiar with that scene, are you?

If you flip the genders (not that the genders are interchangeable), but if you do:

Woman is drunk. Comes to man's apartment, or he brings her there because she asks for a place to stay for the night. She's in the service and is shipping out the next day.

Man is in love with the woman. She has always had a thing for the man.

She takes off her clothes and climbs into man's bed unbeknownst to him, while he's preparing some food or something in kitchen.

He takes off his clothes and gets into bed, also. He just lays there.

She senses he's there, reaches over and embraces him. Then she scoots over next to him, climbs aboard, and initiates sex. He allows her advances. He is, after all, in love with her, and this will probably be the only time he will ever spend a night with her.

Next day she doesn't remember.

Was she raped? No. She was an adult, and she initiated the sex.

But the genders aren't interchangeable. Women are raped daily all around the globe. Rape is used in war time as a means of control, as well as sex. Rape is used in this country and other countries to get control over women, or express anger or hatred toward women in general.

There is no big crime problem of men being raped by women. Men, after all, are usu. larger, and are by biology stronger. Unless a woman holds a man hostage with a gun, or gets him tied up, she can't force him to do anything, generally speaking. The reverse is most definitely not true.

Although the unisex look is cute, we are not really one gender. There are differences biologically, and in the crimes we encounter in life. Women have to live on guard, with the threat of assault ever present. Women are targets. Men are not. There is a hostility against women showing up in DU having to do with rape and assaults on women. Some effort to prove they lie (a la Akin), or that it's not really that bad a problem, or that everyone has to deal with the same thing. None of those things is true.

[4th law of robotics]

23. There are plenty of rape cases

that involve an intoxicated woman not necessarily fighting back (perhaps even appearing to enjoy it) and a sober man using that to his advantage.

And I take issue with your notion that men either can't be raped or if they do it's not that big of a deal.

Although the unisex look is cute, we are not really one gender. There are differences biologically, and in the crimes we encounter in life. Women have to live on guard, with the threat of assault ever present. Women are targets. Men are not. There is a hostility against women showing up in DU having to do with rape and assaults on women. Some effort to prove they lie (a la Akin), or that it's not really that bad a problem, or that everyone has to deal with the same thing. None of those things is true.

In every category except for rape men are more likely to be victims of violent crimes.

So saying women are uniquely vulnerable only works if you assume rape is the only crime a person could ever suffer.

Also it's hard to estimate accurate rates since there is a strong movement out there saying such as you have, that men can't be raped.

[Honeycombe8]

24. The situation you refer to (drunk woman not fighting back) is NOT what is being discussed...

and is NOT what is in the scene the OP refers to, and is NOT what I referred to in my post.

No, there is NOT a problem of men being raped by women in this country. If you think there is, you are sadly misinformed. Look up statistics. WOMEN are raped by the thousands across the country weekly. Many rapes go unreported (as you can tell from this DU board...it's often the case that she is accused of LYING, esp if people like the man, like Assange).

No, men are NOT targeted for crimes like women are. There is a reason older women have bars on their windows and doors, but men do not. Women are stalked and assaulted in parking lots, their homes, their work places, bars, outside bars, grocery store parking lots, everywhere. Men may be more victims of violent crimes, but they are not TARGETED for it. Men are more likely to place themselves in violent situations....getting drunk & fighting, carrying weapons, shooting off at the mouth, road rage, etc. But men are not followed for the purpose of being singled out for assault because they're men. WOMEN are.

No, I never said that rape is the only crime a person could ever suffer. What a stupid thing for you to say. That means you know you've lost the argument, when you start making stuff up.

I never said that men CANNOT be raped. Stop making crap up. Look at one of my other posts in this thread; I posted a video from the movie Deliverance showing a man being raped.

[Smarmie Doofus]

26. This isn't true either:

>>> But men are not followed for the purpose of being singled out for assault because they're men. WOMEN are. >>>

Spend some time in the Bronx. Happens all the time. BS macho codes prohibit gangs of 'utes from targeting and beating up single females on subways etc. but it's ok... even often a rite of initiation... to select a single male... esp. young males ... for a pounding and then relieving them of ipod, smart phone etc.

Calm down, for christ sakes. The OP was not intended to provoke an argument that one side has to "win" or "lose". It was meant to provide some clarity and/or consensus over what constitutes rape and what does not. Your position generally is that ... at least in the case of males as victims .... there is no such thing as rape...other than that which involves forcible penetration.

Other people think that diminished capacity and inability to consent are also factors.

But that's your story and your sticking to it. Go for it.

"Don't change. You're your own girl, with your own style."

[Honeycombe8]

14. Not rape. He was the one who made the move. Here's a male rape scene, though:

[Smarmie Doofus]

19. Sorry. No. She makes "the first move".

Just watched it again (the scene, that is; for about the thirtieth time since 1973). After she joins him under the covers, the two are laying side by side face -up. She's fully conscious; he's most assuredly UN.

She reaches over, first. with her right... and then her left hand and strokes his head. His head shifts slightly, eyes still closed. in her direction. This allows her to slide her arm under the back of his neck, in a kind of half-embrace. His head and body then shift further in her direction. His eyes appear to open very slightly for the first time. His mouth is an inch or so away from her neck. At that time he makes what appears to be his first intentional contribution to the sexual activity that then ensues. He purses his lips and kisses her neck... which is so close that kissing requires no other muscle movement beyond those required to pucker

What ensues is faithfully described in OP.


After the act, Katie herself says, while crying a single tear, "Hubbell, you didn't know it was Katie." He makes no response. ( Is he even capable of speech? There's no indication of it.)

I saw Deliverance and recall the rape scene. There's no question that the victim was raped. I think you'll agree that that DOESN'T necessarily imply that one has to immobilized and strapped to a tree in order to be considered a victim of rape.

Obviously the situation with Katie and Hubbell is much more ambiguous, but that alone doesn't necessarily imply that it wasn't rape.

[Honeycombe8]

25. Nope. She lies down. Puts her arm up somewhere. He leans over and snuggles her, puts his arm around

her, kisses her, starts kissing her, she brings her arm down to be around him somewhere.

Putting your arm up on the pillow is not a sexual move.

Get over it. You've lost this argument.

This is not what happens to women on a daily basis in the country. Girl gets drunk, passes out, guy climbs on top and has sex with her, while she's basically unconscious. That is rape.

The guy in Deliverance wasn't strapped to a tree.

No, the Katie-Hubbell scene is clearly not rape. He was the sex initiator, was NOT passsed out, and was ready for sex. The fact that he could initiated it and COULD get a hard on and complete the act (if that's what happened, which is the impression we're given) proves that he was not passed out or out of it. He simply couldn't remember the next day. Not an unusual occurrence when you get really drunk.

I've been out with a lot of men. They can, and do, initiate sex when they're rip roaring drunk. If anything, they're MORE apt to do that, when drunk. If Hubbell had not been drunk, he wouldn't have done that. But that doesn't mean SHE did it. She did not. And could not. It takes the man having a hard on and his participation to have sex. It does not take a woman's participation to have sex. That's just a biological fact.

[cali]

22. It's a movie. It's fiction.