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BREAKING CNN - House WILL vote to hold Barr in Contempt of Congress! (Original Post) MoonRiver May 2019 OP
Really??!! Great! One question, though... Shell_Seas May 2019 #1
Stay tuned. But at least they're doing their Constitutional duty. MoonRiver May 2019 #2
Correct malaise May 2019 #4
Yes they are DownriverDem May 2019 #72
Yes, I think Trump and his criminals have finally provoked Pelosi PatrickforO May 2019 #98
Well if anything Barr will go down in history as very few AGs have ever been in contempt titaniumsalute May 2019 #15
Eric Holder was MichMary May 2019 #120
As was Janet Reno titaniumsalute May 2019 #122
Shocking. Both Holder and Reno were Dems. susanna May 2019 #183
I think they turn it over to the Attorney General for prosecution :-) patphil May 2019 #33
Congress has a jail cell in the basement and the authority to use it. lagomorph777 May 2019 #35
It actually was supposed to be Washington's tomb... backscatter712 May 2019 #55
If you want my opinion, they should send the Sergeant at Arms to go get him. backscatter712 May 2019 #50
Sargent of Arms DownriverDem May 2019 #71
I was a Sergeant in the Marines! SCVDem May 2019 #104
I stood Shore Partrol Several Times in the Navy INdemo May 2019 #109
Don't cabinet member have their own security detail. Flaleftist May 2019 #118
Why do you suppose House Republicans never took that tack? tritsofme May 2019 #158
See... PoliticAverse May 2019 #90
Pay Wall... ut oh May 2019 #156
Just disable adblock for washingtonpost.com. But... PoliticAverse May 2019 #157
Nothing. They said last night it would wither away Laura PourMeADrink May 2019 #178
Not until Wednesday! I'm so tired of these stupid delays! Why two more damn days? manor321 May 2019 #3
Trial balloon and keeping it in the news bitterross May 2019 #8
Do you mean Corporate Media telling the public how to feel rainy May 2019 #66
Aka the Department of Jokes. CentralMass May 2019 #69
Yeah, this is dramatic enough. forgotmylogin May 2019 #73
Im tired of caring what the right wing will do. We arent the party of reaction we are Chin music May 2019 #162
For the courts and the history books? NurseJackie May 2019 #11
Yes, it will collapse in court without a "good faith effort" to compromise Maru Kitteh May 2019 #113
They want to be seen as giving the other side as much chance as possible to cooperate, it will yaesu May 2019 #26
Fuck that bullshit. I'm tired of playing nice.... nt Hotler May 2019 #102
Me too but its not about playing nice, its about not giving the fascist Supreme court any more yaesu May 2019 #105
You kid yourself if you think the SC will back us anyway. Especially gorsuch and kavanaugh. Chin music May 2019 #171
+Infinity. I'm so tired of this bullshit ecstatic May 2019 #197
I think they must be looking at accommodations. There is a penalty for being held in contempt. Texin May 2019 #47
What penalty did Eric Holder pay? dumbcat May 2019 #76
They have to vote on it n/t malaise May 2019 #114
Im w you. Big dang groan. Why not today? What are they waiting for? Chin music May 2019 #117
With a sternly worded letter! gordianot May 2019 #5
I haven't seen the letter, just breaking news. MoonRiver May 2019 #7
Being snarky but there will be a vote today. gordianot May 2019 #121
How did holding Eric Holder in Contempt work out? NewJeffCT May 2019 #6
The Justice Department's Inspector General later cleared Holder of any wrongdoing. ehrnst May 2019 #20
It is the Barr/Trump DoJ now NewJeffCT May 2019 #63
Dems still have much more of a case against Barr. They aren't just posturing. (nt) ehrnst May 2019 #70
The Justice Department is a unit of the executive branch not Congress. n/t PoliticAverse May 2019 #95
I was talking about the contempt charge brought by Congress. (nt) ehrnst May 2019 #96
Congress has no power to bring criminal charges, only the DOJ...headed by Barr. tritsofme May 2019 #159
Congress can actually hold trials and jail people for "inherent contempt"... PoliticAverse May 2019 #161
Yes, they can. However no one has used it for nearly 100 years. tritsofme May 2019 #167
This will turn out the same way, despite what others may think. hughee99 May 2019 #57
what do you propose they do then? qazplm135 May 2019 #78
Impeachment means NewJeffCT May 2019 #82
how so qazplm135 May 2019 #91
It wont, but the judicial branch holds impeachment proceedings like grand juries so congress ... uponit7771 May 2019 #100
Any holdups by Exec Branch NewJeffCT May 2019 #110
and if they refuse? qazplm135 May 2019 #112
Strongly worded letters, impeach Barr ... then get all the records and let America know about Red Do uponit7771 May 2019 #115
What do you suggest they do? EffieBlack May 2019 #124
Commence same impeachment ...PROCESS...*started* for Nixon get GJ level access to docs and witness's uponit7771 May 2019 #132
What process do you propose the Dems in an impeachment proceeding use StarfishSaver May 2019 #163
Don't impeach, again ... when party A impeaches party B suffers uponit7771 May 2019 #180
That doesn't answer my question StarfishSaver May 2019 #184
I don't understand the question then, sounds like your asking what can they get during ... uponit7771 May 2019 #186
Thanks StarfishSaver May 2019 #187
Is your position impeachment confers nothing outside of what they can do n!? Question not rhetorical uponit7771 May 2019 #188
My position is StarfishSaver May 2019 #190
Hmmm, I'm thinking time is lost because the court process could take years that's what people ... uponit7771 May 2019 #192
Neither U.S. v. Nixon nor Clinton v. Jones were part of the team in impeachment process StarfishSaver May 2019 #193
Acquittal by Senate is expected, the expectation is to expose Trump before the election. The party.. uponit7771 May 2019 #194
Memories are very short StarfishSaver May 2019 #195
Hmmmm, that's the thing ... an impeachment inquiry most likely wont wrap up in months because uponit7771 May 2019 #198
I don't think he'll string out an impeachment inquiry, especially if it starts soon StarfishSaver May 2019 #199
They can go through impeachment inquiry and not move to impeach or send to senate for ... uponit7771 May 2019 #200
Yes, timing is everything. StarfishSaver May 2019 #201
Your's is the most compelling case I've read for no impeachment now, should be it's on OP uponit7771 May 2019 #202
I appreciate that StarfishSaver May 2019 #203
They will not give up the documents and records just like they won't now. gldstwmn May 2019 #136
We'll get more than what we got and then courts outside of house can hold members in contempt with uponit7771 May 2019 #181
It's the courts ordering fines and jail sentences NewJeffCT May 2019 #129
which have to be effectuated by which branch? qazplm135 May 2019 #130
They will ignore that as well. gldstwmn May 2019 #135
Holder and Reno were not gldstwmn May 2019 #139
fuck yeah yuiyoshida May 2019 #9
and so what? vlyons May 2019 #10
Which consequences do you suggest? NurseJackie May 2019 #12
Arrest and jail him vlyons May 2019 #14
It won't happen to a cabinet member. Any other ideas? NurseJackie May 2019 #16
If you want to give Trump and the GOP a whole lot of ammuntion, sure. ehrnst May 2019 #21
That same perp-walk video will energize Dems. And there are twice as many of us as them. lagomorph777 May 2019 #37
You really think Democrats need energizing so much that they need red meat that might ehrnst May 2019 #40
Actually, yes I do think some of us need energizing. Many are discouraged or voter-suppressed. lagomorph777 May 2019 #43
A perp walk will not undo voter suppression laws. ehrnst May 2019 #52
Not all voter suppression is "hard" suppression - they just make it more difficult to vote. lagomorph777 May 2019 #77
You mean like they were in 2018? But what evidence do you have that your view ehrnst May 2019 #85
There's another intangible here, too. calimary May 2019 #108
+1 We can't let Nervous Nellies in our own ranks discourage us from firm action. lagomorph777 May 2019 #111
I agree with you lagomorph, not a game.... saidsimplesimon May 2019 #128
"Nervous Nellies?" Who are you talking about? (nt) ehrnst May 2019 #140
Anybody who wants to roll over and play dead; anybody who says lack of the vote count is a reason to lagomorph777 May 2019 #143
Can you be specific? Because I have no idea who you're talking about. (nt) ehrnst May 2019 #145
I'm glad to hear you haven't encountered anybody like that. lagomorph777 May 2019 #148
Too bad you can't name anyone like that you've "encountered." ehrnst May 2019 #152
I think most folks here can read. lagomorph777 May 2019 #155
Takes courage to back up your accusations. ehrnst May 2019 #169
I'm not looking to break any DU rules. lagomorph777 May 2019 #173
You're not seeing decisive and serious action? Really? ehrnst May 2019 #141
I must have missed it. Who did we arrest? Who did we hold in contempt? lagomorph777 May 2019 #146
Oh, because no one is in cuffs, Democratic leaders are "nervous nellies?" ehrnst May 2019 #150
When faced with a bully the worst thing you can do is be afraid. gldstwmn May 2019 #138
I don't see fear in our ranks. Nancy Pelosi is a badass. (nt) ehrnst May 2019 #142
Then they should not be afraid of the GOP or what the GOP gldstwmn May 2019 #144
What makes you think that they might be? (nt) ehrnst May 2019 #147
Your post stating the GOP will use impeachment gldstwmn May 2019 #149
Not me. I said that they could use a perp walk against us. ehrnst May 2019 #154
I think a good perp walk is just what the doctor ordered. gldstwmn May 2019 #165
For you perhaps, but I will trust Pelosi on this. (nt) ehrnst May 2019 #168
I hope it all works out. gldstwmn May 2019 #172
Agreed. What we do and how we do it is crucial. charlyvi May 2019 #160
The House has no arrest powers. RandySF May 2019 #56
Yes they do. The Sergeant at Arms heads the Capitol Police. backscatter712 May 2019 #61
How exactly should they go about "going to get him". EffieBlack May 2019 #125
They send one or more uniformed police officers to arrest him. backscatter712 May 2019 #166
It most certainly does. PoliticAverse May 2019 #164
Is there legal authority for that? treestar May 2019 #62
Something extraordinary is going to have to occur. gldstwmn May 2019 #137
Confinement until compliance. Mr.Bill May 2019 #22
He's a member of the cabinet. It won't happen. What else do you suggest? NurseJackie May 2019 #36
Sorry - I couldn't find a special exemption in the Constitution for the President's cronies. lagomorph777 May 2019 #38
Yes, and feed right into the GOP narrative that there is a coup going on. (nt) ehrnst May 2019 #41
The Russiapublicans make up any narrative they want; doesn't matter what we do. lagomorph777 May 2019 #48
What evidence do you have that Democrats need "energizing?" ehrnst May 2019 #53
This musicblind May 2019 #182
"This" what? (nt) ehrnst May 2019 #185
I live in the real world. What you're suggesting is a fantasy. It won't happen. NurseJackie May 2019 #49
Thank you. I'm grateful that those making these decisions are much cooler heads. (nt) ehrnst May 2019 #68
About the only other thing I can think of Mr.Bill May 2019 #81
That's a good start. I'm interested in seeing him disbarred and I'd like to learn more... NurseJackie May 2019 #86
Well, he could be charged with perjury. n/t Mr.Bill May 2019 #87
Vlyons already said "jail time" at140 May 2019 #75
It's a fantasy with long-term real-world costs that exceed the immediate emotional satisfaction. NurseJackie May 2019 #84
So, do you think that they shouldn't have done this? That it was pointless? ehrnst May 2019 #19
and it will be fought all the way to the Supreme court but at least they are doing something, yaesu May 2019 #31
They can also issue fines DeminPennswoods May 2019 #44
i like the idea of fines..LOTS of them.. and watch trump say he will pay.. then wont. samnsara May 2019 #74
AG contempt and obstruction of justice is more kindling on the eventual impeachment fire (n/t) forgotmylogin May 2019 #80
Right. I see this as Congress "building a case" against Trump until he withers and leaves office. CTyankee May 2019 #131
you'e right and limbaugh will be there to help barr wear it as a badge of honor certainot May 2019 #103
Republicans attempted this with AG Holder and nothing came of it inwiththenew May 2019 #13
I think this case is much more solid. Holder was later cleared of wrongdoing. ehrnst May 2019 #24
You've said that a couple times here... but what's the basis for it? FBaggins May 2019 #88
I'm talking about the case that the GOP had against Holder for contempt. (nt) ehrnst May 2019 #89
So was I (nt) FBaggins May 2019 #94
Good. At LEAST make an attempt to uphold the law. nt Honeycombe8 May 2019 #17
Then what? Jail threat to force expedited court intervention. Pepsidog May 2019 #18
Disbarment, impeachment. Trump would LOVE footage of Barr being handcuffed ehrnst May 2019 #27
Right On! Pepsidog May 2019 #119
Contemp order may be first step toward Barr's impeachment. infullview May 2019 #23
They're Not Going To Have Him Arrested Though... global1 May 2019 #25
Has to be personal funds. And it may be grounds for disbarrment. (nt) ehrnst May 2019 #28
Disbarment would have teeth for him treestar May 2019 #64
There is no constitutional requirement for the AG to be a lawyer. Just appointed by POTUS. ehrnst May 2019 #67
and where does it go? samnsara May 2019 #32
The US Government, just like the Manafort and Cohen fines and payments. (nt) ehrnst May 2019 #45
The fine will be paid by his boss. lagomorph777 May 2019 #39
If that can be shown, it will be used in court. (nt) ehrnst May 2019 #42
Barr was brought into stop the Mueller investigation and to help cover up the biggest crime in ... Botany May 2019 #29
sigh well NOW baby sussex is on cnn ( which is fine with me!) samnsara May 2019 #30
bout time. I have held him in contempt for years still_one May 2019 #34
If 220 Democrats support the Contempt citation Ponietz May 2019 #46
Excellent point. (nt) klook May 2019 #54
hot damn! nt Javaman May 2019 #51
They will vote on it on Wednesday DesertRat May 2019 #58
Yep, not a done deal yet. Duppers May 2019 #79
They can hold him in contempt until the cows come home, but he cannot be alllowed to remain at DOJ. Texin May 2019 #59
I think Nader waited this long... nycbos May 2019 #60
Yep. "Exhaustion of remedies" CaptainTruth May 2019 #106
50+ posts and nobody has pointed out that the OP isn't correct? FBaggins May 2019 #65
I corrected the OP. MoonRiver May 2019 #99
It sounds like you're describing inherent contempt as opposed to civil contempt. CaptainTruth May 2019 #107
In order for "The House" to do anything - requires a vote of the full House FBaggins May 2019 #126
Excellent. The Velveteen Ocelot May 2019 #83
Finally LibFarmer May 2019 #92
Inherent contempt or civil contempt? CaptainTruth May 2019 #93
This is bullshit, why not do it right this minute? instead of playing reality TV shitshit with it Snake Plissken May 2019 #97
Because they would like to actually win the issue... rather than just playing games FBaggins May 2019 #101
We either have a democracy or we don't spanone May 2019 #116
Yes, exactly MoonRiver May 2019 #127
What, if anything, can the Senate do about it rocktivity May 2019 #123
So, now Barr is a criminal......Lock him up!!!!! W T F May 2019 #133
Great now what? gldstwmn May 2019 #134
I've los all hope itcfish May 2019 #151
Good, they've done it to at least 2 of our recent AGs. nt MadDAsHell May 2019 #153
The Latest: Justice Department proposes Nadler talks PoliticAverse May 2019 #170
The Trumpers are just stalling. Hope the judiciary committee doesn't fall for it. nt SunSeeker May 2019 #174
yay! johannsyah May 2019 #175
kick Barr's ass on this... BlueJac May 2019 #176
Why is Nadler demanding something that is against Federal law to turn over? Alea May 2019 #177
It's not against federal law. StarfishSaver May 2019 #179
Thank you StarfishSaver for the reply Alea May 2019 #189
Definitely don't let Trump stress cost you grades StarfishSaver May 2019 #191
Great, if jail time and/or a 100k fine is involved. ecstatic May 2019 #196

PatrickforO

(14,573 posts)
98. Yes, I think Trump and his criminals have finally provoked Pelosi
Mon May 6, 2019, 11:24 AM
May 2019

and the rest of the Dems.

Trump personifies the old adage, "if you give him an inch, he'll take a mile."

Now he's gone a mile too far.

susanna

(5,231 posts)
183. Shocking. Both Holder and Reno were Dems.
Tue May 7, 2019, 04:20 AM
May 2019

Interesting that the GOP really doesn't like it when Democrats push back and use the their own playbook on them.

Fascinating, really.

backscatter712

(26,355 posts)
55. It actually was supposed to be Washington's tomb...
Mon May 6, 2019, 10:33 AM
May 2019

Which makes it even better!

Though if you want to be serious, the Capitol Police is equipped like any municipal police department, and yes, they have holding cells.

backscatter712

(26,355 posts)
50. If you want my opinion, they should send the Sergeant at Arms to go get him.
Mon May 6, 2019, 10:31 AM
May 2019

Hold him in the Capitol basement.

INdemo

(6,994 posts)
109. I stood Shore Partrol Several Times in the Navy
Mon May 6, 2019, 11:53 AM
May 2019

Does that count?

I would like to serve as a U S Marshal or an FBI agent for 1 day, just to be one of the Marshals to escort Barr from the Justice Dept in handcuffs
but wait there is such a long line ahead of me.

PoliticAverse

(26,366 posts)
157. Just disable adblock for washingtonpost.com. But...
Mon May 6, 2019, 02:42 PM
May 2019

Here's another article with an extensive discussion of the issue from a different site:
https://sidebarsblog.com/contempt-of-congress/

 

Laura PourMeADrink

(42,770 posts)
178. Nothing. They said last night it would wither away
Mon May 6, 2019, 11:06 PM
May 2019

No one in trump world will haul him away. And he may face small fine.

 

bitterross

(4,066 posts)
8. Trial balloon and keeping it in the news
Mon May 6, 2019, 10:04 AM
May 2019

In this case, I'm okay with 2 days. That gives it two more days on the news. It also allows them to judge public reaction to Congress finally holding someone accountable.

It seems like a way to test the waters for other things. Hopefully, a referral to DOJ for perjury is coming too.

forgotmylogin

(7,528 posts)
73. Yeah, this is dramatic enough.
Mon May 6, 2019, 10:44 AM
May 2019

If they held him in contempt and immediately dragged him away you lose the dramatic build up, and grant Repubs a chance to scream "Fascism! Leftwing Coup!" (Which would be patently hilarious...)

But I'm sure the point is they'd much rather have Barr comply than be forced to take steps to make him an immediate martyr to the redcaps. And it stretches the news cycle.

I'm wondering if that might be part of the delayed impeachment strategy on the down-low; if they start it too soon Presidtent Stollen has time to tamp it down and flush it out through the news-cycles. Better if they start it a couple of months before the election, especially if it goes nowhere because then McDonald faces de-throning on two fronts and if he's not re-elected, problem solved. If he is, impeachment proceeds and it doesn't look like it was strictly motivated by an unfortunate election win.

Chin music

(23,002 posts)
162. Im tired of caring what the right wing will do. We arent the party of reaction we are
Mon May 6, 2019, 02:54 PM
May 2019

Last edited Mon May 6, 2019, 03:47 PM - Edit history (1)

the party of action. The gop doesnt give two shits what they do to us, I couldnt care less what the gop will scream. As if they take Dems into consideration anytime they make a big move. NOpe.
Enough is enough. By wednesday Im sure the gop will have found a way to dodge the impact or make it not happen at all. Thats why we dont need to talk to to death. JUST DO YOUR JOBS. We'll clean up the mess afterwards. When we telegraph whatever we are going to do, it shoots us in the foot. Nadler said today was the day...EVERY time we draw a line, then let them cross it, it hurts all of us.
DO.. then worry about what 30% of America thinks. That's why they are OUR party, and the gop theirs. It's not our job to make the gop happy. It IS our job to promote what 2/3rds PLUS of America as Democrats care about though. The gop should be an afterthought, in everything. They ENJOY when Liberals hurt. Why are we even cring?

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
11. For the courts and the history books?
Mon May 6, 2019, 10:06 AM
May 2019

The process is frustrating, all the waiting, but I'll have to agree with their decisions so far. Our options are limited.

Maru Kitteh

(28,340 posts)
113. Yes, it will collapse in court without a "good faith effort" to compromise
Mon May 6, 2019, 11:59 AM
May 2019

Frustrating, as you say, but true.

yaesu

(8,020 posts)
26. They want to be seen as giving the other side as much chance as possible to cooperate, it will
Mon May 6, 2019, 10:19 AM
May 2019

look better for us when it gets to the Supreme court which I'm sure it will.

yaesu

(8,020 posts)
105. Me too but its not about playing nice, its about not giving the fascist Supreme court any more
Mon May 6, 2019, 11:39 AM
May 2019

excuses to back Barr if & when its decided there.

Chin music

(23,002 posts)
171. You kid yourself if you think the SC will back us anyway. Especially gorsuch and kavanaugh.
Mon May 6, 2019, 03:50 PM
May 2019

Trying to be perfect to HOPEFULLY encourge the other side to see things our way, doesnt work. They would suffocate every one of us if given a chance. MOVEMENT towards the end is what the public wants, NOT how we can kowtow to repubs anymore. IMHO.

ecstatic

(32,703 posts)
197. +Infinity. I'm so tired of this bullshit
Tue May 7, 2019, 06:57 PM
May 2019

Stop with the trial balloons and poll testing. They have the power to set the narrative and won't. It's sickening at this point. Lead! Lock the fuckers up!

Texin

(2,596 posts)
47. I think they must be looking at accommodations. There is a penalty for being held in contempt.
Mon May 6, 2019, 10:30 AM
May 2019

In any contempt declaration I've ever seen or heard of, there is always a punitive monetary penalty and some jail time. I don't know if the Congress can assess any monetary fines or such, but what do they plan to do with His Heftiness? There IS no prison cell within the Capitol complex. The old "prison" jail cell was located in the Supreme Court building and not used after the '30s. I think it's all storage now. If they have him arrested, which I wonder if they'll actually go that route, where will the put him? I would recommend the Motel 6. That's about as good as he warrants, but the rooms aren't very spacious, and he is the size of a water buffalo.

So, they hold him in contempt, what next? They can't very well just let him continue to go to his day job at the DOJ, no?

dumbcat

(2,120 posts)
76. What penalty did Eric Holder pay?
Mon May 6, 2019, 10:48 AM
May 2019

None, to my knowledge. It will likely be the same for Barr.

Some history and answers to your questions here:

https://www.wired.com/2012/06/holder/

Chin music

(23,002 posts)
117. Im w you. Big dang groan. Why not today? What are they waiting for?
Mon May 6, 2019, 12:08 PM
May 2019

If they arent going to be serious and start stacking folks up, then admit it and lets stop this roller coaster of threats and weak follow through. Come on. Nadler said today was the day. After a while, folks stop believing and when you threaten, they go golfing. IMHO.

gordianot

(15,238 posts)
121. Being snarky but there will be a vote today.
Mon May 6, 2019, 12:26 PM
May 2019

Co equal branches of government when will the funding knife come out in the House?

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
20. The Justice Department's Inspector General later cleared Holder of any wrongdoing.
Mon May 6, 2019, 10:15 AM
May 2019

I think the GOP knew that they were just grasping at straws.

Don't think that's going to happen this time.

You're welcome.

NewJeffCT

(56,828 posts)
63. It is the Barr/Trump DoJ now
Mon May 6, 2019, 10:38 AM
May 2019

I don't think it's nearly as independent now as it was just a year or two ago.

tritsofme

(17,377 posts)
167. Yes, they can. However no one has used it for nearly 100 years.
Mon May 6, 2019, 03:20 PM
May 2019

If it was as foolproof and easy a solution as many here suggest, why do you suppose House Republicans never tried it against Clinton or Obama officials? Certainly not timidity? These are also not criminal proceedings.

qazplm135

(7,447 posts)
78. what do you propose they do then?
Mon May 6, 2019, 10:50 AM
May 2019

What should be their response if not contempt?

Impeachment has the same end result so I assume that's not your answer either.

uponit7771

(90,336 posts)
100. It wont, but the judicial branch holds impeachment proceedings like grand juries so congress ...
Mon May 6, 2019, 11:26 AM
May 2019

... gets more evidence like a grand jury.

NewJeffCT

(56,828 posts)
110. Any holdups by Exec Branch
Mon May 6, 2019, 11:57 AM
May 2019

goes immediately to the courts and then precedent means that they'll be ordered to turn over documents.

uponit7771

(90,336 posts)
115. Strongly worded letters, impeach Barr ... then get all the records and let America know about Red Do
Mon May 6, 2019, 12:04 PM
May 2019

... Don and the Kremlin Clan

uponit7771

(90,336 posts)
132. Commence same impeachment ...PROCESS...*started* for Nixon get GJ level access to docs and witness's
Mon May 6, 2019, 01:32 PM
May 2019

... Don't move for conviction or removal but allow America to consistently hear how Russia helped Benedict Donald in 2016 and is going to help him again in 2020.

Takes senate out of the picture, for those concerned non senate removal will be good for Red Don.

On the other hand no time in history has impeachment process been a positive for the party of the impeached.

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
163. What process do you propose the Dems in an impeachment proceeding use
Mon May 6, 2019, 02:55 PM
May 2019

that will achieve an outcome they can't get otherwise?

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
184. That doesn't answer my question
Tue May 7, 2019, 06:49 AM
May 2019

I've asked that question several times and never can seem to get a response.

Which, alone, says a lot.

uponit7771

(90,336 posts)
186. I don't understand the question then, sounds like your asking what can they get during ...
Tue May 7, 2019, 12:09 PM
May 2019

... impeachment PROCEEDINGS that they can't get outside of those proceedings.

1. timely access to GJ docs and witness's; Barr said they get unredacted report under impeachment
2. Curbed Pardon abilities of president to even a small degree
3. GJ discovery ability outside of executive branch constraints, none of the "suing" to stop gathering of information under EP

The USSC has already said when congress is under investigative process like impeachment then they become like a grand jury ... the impeachment mangers are

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
187. Thanks
Tue May 7, 2019, 12:40 PM
May 2019
1. Timely access to GJ docs and witness's; Barr said they get unredacted report under impeachment

What do do mean by "timely access"? Who would enforce it and how. Do you really believe that Barr would turn over Grand Jury material to an impeachment panel just because he said he would?

2. Curbed Pardon abilities of president to even a small degree

Impeachment doesn't curb a president's ability to pardon federal crimes in any way. The Constitution simply excludes impeachment from the range of things a president can pardon. But the fact that a president is in the process of being impeached or has been impeached has absolutely effect on his pardon power.

3. GJ discovery ability outside of executive branch constraints, none of the "suing" to stop gathering of information under EP

An impeachment inquiry does not mean the panel can automatically get anything. Grand jury material can be obtained without an impeachment, as was done during Watergate. And executive privilege is irrelevant to the grand jury materials since, if it was testified to or revealed in the GJ, executive privilege won't apply. If executive privilege was invoked in the Grand Jury, that material never was included.

The USSC has already said when congress is under investigative process like impeachment then they become like a grand jury ... the impeachment mangers are

You didn't complete this sentence. Please explain what the Supreme Court has ruled regarding impeachment managers.

As I've said, impeachment doesn't confer some magical powers on the House, make it any more likely that the administration will cooperate, or ensure Congress can obtain testimony or documents without going to court and fighting over it, just as they would have to do in any other proceeding.
 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
190. My position is
Tue May 7, 2019, 04:53 PM
May 2019

that, at this point in time, impeachment confers nothing outside of what they can do through the oversight process and, in fact, could actually be less effective if launched right now.

While many of us are already convinced that we have more than enough to impeach, most of the country isn't there yet. Moreover, if impeachment started now, it would essentially "freeze" most of what we have in place and make it very difficult to gather any additional evidence that would sway the public and actually lead to potentially gathering enough votes to remove him. Impeachment inquiries are not investigatory processes that dig out new evidence. The last two impeachment proceedings worked with evidence that had been gathered by other entities and, for the most part, simply considered whether that evidence was sufficient to support impeachment.

Here, people are pushing for impeachment so that Congress can root out and gather evidence. And that's just what Congress is doing. The difference is that people seem to think that an impeachment inquiry makes it easier to gather find that evidence and that it confers upon the Judiciary Committee - which would be the entity responsible - to do so. But that's not the case. Not only do the other pertinent committees have just as much authority - if not moreso - to gather any evidence that the Judiciary Committee could do in an impeachment inquiry, they also have the resources, staff and expertise to do what the Judiciary Committee can't do alone. In fact, some Committees have the exclusive power to do certain things that other committees can't - for example, Ways and Means has the exclusive power to obtain tax returns. The Judiciary Committee has no such power (and neither does any other committee).

So, my position is that, while impeachment is warranted, it has to be done correctly and with the right timing. And now is not the time to launch a formal impeachment inquiry. Instead Congress must conduct the investigations and hearings that would be done as part of an impeachment inquiry AND go far beyond that in order to pull together additional evidence that will be needed to provide a solid foundation for impeachment, which doesn't exist yet, regardless how convinced you and I may be that this man must be impeached.

If impeachment is started right now, pretty much all the Judiciary Committee will have to work with is the Mueller Report (and not even all of that) and a lot of bits and pieces and suspicions and accusations that the public already knows about but haven't been enough to convince them that Trump must go. They can try to get additional information - the unredacted report, the grand jury material, the tax returns, etc. - but the administration will stonewall them exactly as they are now. The fact that these are being fought over in an impeachment process will have no effect on the likelihood that the Trump people will turn them over or whether a court will rule more quickly or in the House's favor. The result will be the same whether this is fought out in an impeachment inquiry or through the other committees.

Nothing is lost by continuing the investigations and hearings and putting the information out every single day to the American public. More evidence can be gathered, the public can be more easily convinced this way than if they're learning about it as part of an impeachment, which they'll more likely see as a craven political fight instead of a meaningful fight to save the country.

This is not a binary choice: impeachment or nothing. Continuing robust investigations doesn't take impeachment off the table. They just make it more likely that impeachment will succeed and that Trump is held accountable for many more of his crimes than if Congress allows themselves to be goaded into jumping the gun and starting proceedings before all of the ducks are in a row.

You and others may differ with my view, but my position is well-thought out and based on years of relevant legal and political experience. And, more important, the people in Congress who are strategizing this very complex situation know what they're doing and shouldn't be attacked and called cowards or clueless because they're not taking the approach that some people want them to take - especially since most of the people attacking them are on the outside looking in and don't have the experience or knowledge to fully understand all of the considerations that must be dealt with in this matter.

I hope this helps you better understand my position on this.

uponit7771

(90,336 posts)
192. Hmmm, I'm thinking time is lost because the court process could take years that's what people ...
Tue May 7, 2019, 06:01 PM
May 2019

... know so far because that's what has happened in the past where as impeachment would shorten some of those process's because, like in Nixon or Clinton, the USSC would address disagreements faster.

Or at least inherent contempt and holding Barr at gunpoint might ...

We don't know any other information other than what we're told and read and it's my understanding investigations don't stop when impeachment process is started ... investigations are consolidated which sounds like that might be a bad thing.

Sounds like there needs to be a pro con thread ... people need to be informed.

Right now it looks like dem leadership has been caught off guard, on this issue the base and leadership are pointing a different direct depending on what day it is.

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
193. Neither U.S. v. Nixon nor Clinton v. Jones were part of the team in impeachment process
Tue May 7, 2019, 06:18 PM
May 2019

Nixon was brought to enforce a subpoena issued by the special prosecutor in a criminal case in U.S. District Court. Clinton was brought as part of a civil case long before impeachment was even being considered.

A court can always expedite a case if it determines it's in the country's best interest. They can do that whether or not an impeachment is pending.

The Democratic leadership hasn't been caught off guard. The problem is they're dealing with a unprecedented situation of a president with no morals or shame being protected by a U.S. Attorney General who also possesses neither attribute. They have to walk some very fine lines.

I'm glad they're proceeding as they are. We only have one shot to get this right. And if they jump the gun on impeachment, impeach him in the next couple of months, then he's acquitted by the Senate, we'll be done. Congress will have spoken, we won't be able to do more investigations, and the country will move on. And we'll have little opportunity to hold this criminal accountable next year. In fact, the impeachment will be his badge of honor and probably his campaign platform.

I say we need to keep digging and putting it out there, dig some more and put it out there. The country needs to see the depth of depravity we're dealing with. And, while it seems counter-intuitive, I fear that impeachment at this stage will prevent that from happening.

uponit7771

(90,336 posts)
194. Acquittal by Senate is expected, the expectation is to expose Trump before the election. The party..
Tue May 7, 2019, 06:36 PM
May 2019

... of the impeached has never fared well in elections post impeachment process of any kind in the history of the US throughout multiple generations and millenniums.

Because Red Don is LITERALLY not a sane person impeachment will be his badge of honor no matter what, he'll make up a reality if it doesn't exist.

There is no real well grounded POLITICAL reasons to not proceed with impeachment, none.

If it's a matter of process and timing we should know ... I'm thinknig your previous post could lead to that

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
195. Memories are very short
Tue May 7, 2019, 06:49 PM
May 2019

If impeachment is done now, based mostly on the Mueller report and wraps up within months - which will happen since people won't tolerate an open-ended impeachment inquiry they'll view as a fishing expedition - that one bite of the apple will likely prove not to be enough. And by next November, it will be just another blip on the disastrous Trump radar - so far in the past and overshadowed by so many new scandals (without access to impeachment), that it just won't have much impact any more.

uponit7771

(90,336 posts)
198. Hmmmm, that's the thing ... an impeachment inquiry most likely wont wrap up in months because
Tue May 7, 2019, 06:58 PM
May 2019

... Red Don is stonewalling everything.

I do agree about timing, if its a matter of waiting to the right time democrats should string this out and along ... let everyone see the evidence that Red Don worked with the Russians during the time they were attacking America and his lawyer says there's nothing wrong with taking information from Russia going forward.

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
199. I don't think he'll string out an impeachment inquiry, especially if it starts soon
Tue May 7, 2019, 07:37 PM
May 2019

with little additional evidence developed prior to the opening of the inquiry other than the Mueller Report. He won't cooperate but will just dare them to impeach him with what they have. And when they do, the Senate will quickly acquit. If you think he was obnoxious after Barr's letter about the Mueller report, imagine him after a Democratic House impeaches him on a straight party line vote and the Senate "exonerates" him. And the Dems won't be able to keep investigating him after that because, after all, they could have done that before impeaching him but chose not to do it.

uponit7771

(90,336 posts)
200. They can go through impeachment inquiry and not move to impeach or send to senate for ...
Tue May 7, 2019, 07:44 PM
May 2019

... conviction or vote of removal.

Also, Red Don is going to wail and cry no matter what we do... if he doesn't have something factual to cry about then he'll make something up and his sycophants will believe him hook line.

I have no doubt next by next week there will be a tweet about "mean democrats" or something close ... I don't see Red Don's lack of cleaving to reality a good reason not to proceed with impeachment or impeachment proceedings.

Timing is an issue, I'm thinking this should be outlined by leadership

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
201. Yes, timing is everything.
Tue May 7, 2019, 07:53 PM
May 2019

But I don't think it's wise for the Dem leaders to show their hands by laying out a roadmap right now. That's another reason to continue proceeding with the various investigations - that is solid, substantive activity that will produce evidence that can be used for impeachment. It's a good use of time and resources as they build a public case and map out the strategy for impeachment.

gldstwmn

(4,575 posts)
136. They will not give up the documents and records just like they won't now.
Mon May 6, 2019, 02:13 PM
May 2019

I hope there are contingency plans.

uponit7771

(90,336 posts)
181. We'll get more than what we got and then courts outside of house can hold members in contempt with
Tue May 7, 2019, 03:07 AM
May 2019

... SOL so the bastards can go to jail once America has beat Team Trump Russia

qazplm135

(7,447 posts)
130. which have to be effectuated by which branch?
Mon May 6, 2019, 01:12 PM
May 2019

And the courts will be appealed.

And who's been stacking the courts with nutjobs?

This is not as easy as folks make it seem.

The only real way to beat Trump is via an election, not via separation of powers.

gldstwmn

(4,575 posts)
139. Holder and Reno were not
Mon May 6, 2019, 02:18 PM
May 2019

mixed up with a foreign power trying to subvert democracy. This is different.

vlyons

(10,252 posts)
10. and so what?
Mon May 6, 2019, 10:06 AM
May 2019

without consequences, jail time, it's meaningless. Republicans have no shame and could not care less what Dems call them.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
21. If you want to give Trump and the GOP a whole lot of ammuntion, sure.
Mon May 6, 2019, 10:17 AM
May 2019

They'll put video that perp walk in every campaign ad for 2020, to "prove" that the Democrats are trying to stage a coup, and they will point out that they didn't have Eric Holder arrested...

Now, if they can get him disbarred, that might do more actual damage.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
40. You really think Democrats need energizing so much that they need red meat that might
Mon May 6, 2019, 10:27 AM
May 2019

just give the GOP ammunition?

lagomorph777

(30,613 posts)
43. Actually, yes I do think some of us need energizing. Many are discouraged or voter-suppressed.
Mon May 6, 2019, 10:29 AM
May 2019

It will take a lot to get some people off their duffs.

The GOP will continue to have their 38% base of Despicables. Screw 'em.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
52. A perp walk will not undo voter suppression laws.
Mon May 6, 2019, 10:32 AM
May 2019

And it would energize Trump's base through the roof.

All congressional seats will be up for reelection in 2020. Do you want them taking back the House?

lagomorph777

(30,613 posts)
77. Not all voter suppression is "hard" suppression - they just make it more difficult to vote.
Mon May 6, 2019, 10:49 AM
May 2019

So voters have to overcome more and need to be more motivated.

And because I don't want the Russiapublicans to take back the House, our House must act and mobilize our base.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
85. You mean like they were in 2018? But what evidence do you have that your view
Mon May 6, 2019, 11:03 AM
May 2019

is shared by the majority of Democrats - that they won't be "energized" enough to vote in 2020 unless there is a theatrical perp walk?

That's a fantasy that it would happen, BTW.

So, if you think that voters not coming out is "suppression" do you think that the false anti-Hillary propaganda spread on Lefty FB pages and twitter was also "voter suppression?"

calimary

(81,262 posts)
108. There's another intangible here, too.
Mon May 6, 2019, 11:43 AM
May 2019

What I worry about is a discouragement factor that might start seeping into the picture on the Democratic side, if our reps go into yet another gunfight armed with knives and feather dusters.

I worry about that A LOT. We worked our asses off for two years after January 2017 to flip the House of Reps. We worked like hell to oust 40 “bad guys” and take power back in one chamber on Capitol Hill. AND at the state level too. We worked nonstop to put the Democrats back in power in some way so all of Washington DC would NOT continue to be a simpering, cowardly spineless rubber stamp to this illegitimate monster in OUR White House. And we rightly expect RESULTS for all that work. We quite properly expect a return on that investment. What the hell did we work and struggle and slave and give our all on every possible front for?

Dammit, I want to see action on this! Decisive and goddamn serious action! I didn’t work that hard so I could get some goddamn “strongly-worded letters.” You know what trump and Barr and others of their ilk do with those “strongly-worded letters”? They take them to the proverbial bathroom and wipe their asses with ‘em.

I’m discouraged already yet determined to vote whenever I get the chance. But I worry that other Dems will get discouraged by a mealy-mouthed Democratic “response” and, when the next time to vote arrives, will throw up their hands and say “why the hell should I even bother?”

THAT’S what I worry about.

lagomorph777

(30,613 posts)
111. +1 We can't let Nervous Nellies in our own ranks discourage us from firm action.
Mon May 6, 2019, 11:57 AM
May 2019

This is not just a game; this is about the survival of the American Republic. Even actions doomed to failure have an energizing effect; they demonstrate that the people we have elected understand the stakes, and that they will fight alongside us.

lagomorph777

(30,613 posts)
143. Anybody who wants to roll over and play dead; anybody who says lack of the vote count is a reason to
Mon May 6, 2019, 02:23 PM
May 2019

just give up.

Hopefully we don't have any of those on DU; now is not the time for half-measures.

lagomorph777

(30,613 posts)
146. I must have missed it. Who did we arrest? Who did we hold in contempt?
Mon May 6, 2019, 02:24 PM
May 2019

I was away for a couple of hours.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
150. Oh, because no one is in cuffs, Democratic leaders are "nervous nellies?"
Mon May 6, 2019, 02:27 PM
May 2019

Maybe you missed this... You don't get to accuse someone of contempt before the deadline you give them.

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/05/06/democrats-prepare-to-hold-william-barr-in-contempt-1302982

gldstwmn

(4,575 posts)
144. Then they should not be afraid of the GOP or what the GOP
Mon May 6, 2019, 02:24 PM
May 2019

is going to do. When was the last time the GOP was afraid of anything?

gldstwmn

(4,575 posts)
149. Your post stating the GOP will use impeachment
Mon May 6, 2019, 02:27 PM
May 2019

against us? Or am I confusing you with someone else? If so I apologize. Fatigue has set in.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
154. Not me. I said that they could use a perp walk against us.
Mon May 6, 2019, 02:29 PM
May 2019

I also think that impeaching Barr after they hold him in contempt for missing today's headline would be a great next step.

charlyvi

(6,537 posts)
160. Agreed. What we do and how we do it is crucial.
Mon May 6, 2019, 02:50 PM
May 2019

Whatever we do to them will serve to fuel their right wing base, donor money machine, and fence sitting independents. Knowing this, whatever Dems do MUST be seen as beyond politics and, therefore, legitimate. It's a tough, tough tightrope to walk and I don't envy any one of our Dems, especially Pelosi. As the old saying goes, when you come at the king, you better not miss. Trying and missing badly will give us Trump* for another term and, perhaps, an end to our Republic.

backscatter712

(26,355 posts)
61. Yes they do. The Sergeant at Arms heads the Capitol Police.
Mon May 6, 2019, 10:37 AM
May 2019

If the House so orders it, they can go get him. It's happened before, but not in close to a century.

backscatter712

(26,355 posts)
166. They send one or more uniformed police officers to arrest him.
Mon May 6, 2019, 03:12 PM
May 2019

The Sergeant at Arms of the House of Representatives is a sworn law enforcement officer, under the direct authority of the House, and he's one of the heads of the Capitol Police.

If he skips town, the next step is putting a warrant out, and they can have Federal Marshalls go get him.

PoliticAverse

(26,366 posts)
164. It most certainly does.
Mon May 6, 2019, 02:57 PM
May 2019

It has the power to arrest, try, and jail.

If you want a complete education on this issue, see:

Congress’s Contempt Power and the Enforcement of Congressional Subpoenas: Law, History, Practice, and Procedure
Congressional Research Service, 2017.
https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL34097.pdf

treestar

(82,383 posts)
62. Is there legal authority for that?
Mon May 6, 2019, 10:38 AM
May 2019

That is the penalty when it is contempt of court. Don't know about Congress.

lagomorph777

(30,613 posts)
38. Sorry - I couldn't find a special exemption in the Constitution for the President's cronies.
Mon May 6, 2019, 10:27 AM
May 2019

I suggest we jail the fucker.

lagomorph777

(30,613 posts)
48. The Russiapublicans make up any narrative they want; doesn't matter what we do.
Mon May 6, 2019, 10:30 AM
May 2019

We have to worry about energizing the other 2/3 of the electorate.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
53. What evidence do you have that Democrats need "energizing?"
Mon May 6, 2019, 10:32 AM
May 2019

It sound more like you personally want to see some vengance exacted in a specific way, and will upset with Democratic leaders if you aren't given that.

Rationalizing that personal wish as something that Democrats en masse "need" to be "energized" doesn't mean that's actually the case.

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
49. I live in the real world. What you're suggesting is a fantasy. It won't happen.
Mon May 6, 2019, 10:31 AM
May 2019
I suggest we jail the fucker.
I live in the real world. What you're suggesting is a fantasy. It won't happen.

It's a nice fantasy. I'd like to see it happen too. But it won't happen. Our leaders also live in the real world and they understand how things like this would play out if they tried.

Mr.Bill

(24,288 posts)
81. About the only other thing I can think of
Mon May 6, 2019, 10:55 AM
May 2019

is that it could add to the list of things to justify impeachment.

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
86. That's a good start. I'm interested in seeing him disbarred and I'd like to learn more...
Mon May 6, 2019, 11:04 AM
May 2019

That's a good start. I'm interested in seeing him disbarred and I'd like to learn more about the possibility of impeaching Barr. Would it work? Do we have the votes for it? Would there be unintended consequences? I'm also interested in finding out more about what can be done to him as a private citizen... AFTER he's no longer AG. (Something like what happened to John Mitchell, Nixon's AG.)

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
84. It's a fantasy with long-term real-world costs that exceed the immediate emotional satisfaction.
Mon May 6, 2019, 11:01 AM
May 2019
without threat of jail time, it carries no water.
Nobody is denying that it would be immensely satisfying and most deserved. But I think it's important to accept the fact that this simply will not happen to a sitting member of the cabinet.

Our leaders aren't the rubes that the fringe elements are portraying them as. They're smarter than they're being given credit for. They know the score. They're experienced. They know how things work. I trust their judgement. They don't exist to give me (or anyone) emotional satisfaction of revenge and settling scores. They understand how to anticipate and expect AND AVOID the unintended consequences of acting in haste, in anger, with overwrought emotion, with vengeance... and thank goodness for that.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
19. So, do you think that they shouldn't have done this? That it was pointless?
Mon May 6, 2019, 10:12 AM
May 2019

It looks like they are creating the case that the adminstration was given every opportunity to comply, and were told of the consequences.

It's as though any response they make that doesn't involve a lot of testosterone is "so what?" for so many on DU.

I'm glad we have smart people in charge who aren't worried about throwing red meat out, but getting the job done and done right.



yaesu

(8,020 posts)
31. and it will be fought all the way to the Supreme court but at least they are doing something,
Mon May 6, 2019, 10:22 AM
May 2019

putting on record that an AG was charged with contempt.

DeminPennswoods

(15,286 posts)
44. They can also issue fines
Mon May 6, 2019, 10:29 AM
May 2019

That's probably the more effective consequence. Getting hit with a few thousand dollars a day in fines adds up.

There is also the appropriations process where money can be taken from DoJ's budget or restricted as to what money can be spent on.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
131. Right. I see this as Congress "building a case" against Trump until he withers and leaves office.
Mon May 6, 2019, 01:17 PM
May 2019

The jig will be up someday!

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
24. I think this case is much more solid. Holder was later cleared of wrongdoing.
Mon May 6, 2019, 10:19 AM
May 2019

Obama was a constitutional law professor, and likely knew the GOP had no case.

This is very different.

FBaggins

(26,737 posts)
88. You've said that a couple times here... but what's the basis for it?
Mon May 6, 2019, 11:11 AM
May 2019

The two scenarios are quite similar. In both cases, Congress subpoenaed document and the AG refused to provide them.

Yes, in Holder's case, the IG eventually cleared him of wrongdoing. However, the courts did require him to turn over virtually everything that was being withheld. This means that your commentary re: Obama's constitutional expertise was off-base. The GOP did "have a case" (since they eventually won that case).

What is notable is that even when Congress "had a case" to force the production of documents, the AG was not found to be in criminal contempt (both by the court and the IG) because it wasn't an unreasonable position to take. AND it took years before the process was complete and documents were produced.

Drawing the parallel to the current scenario, it means that Congress can eventually get most of the documents it's pushing for, but it won't be soon and threats to the AG are likely toothless.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
27. Disbarment, impeachment. Trump would LOVE footage of Barr being handcuffed
Mon May 6, 2019, 10:20 AM
May 2019

to "prove" that Democrats are attempting a coup.

global1

(25,247 posts)
25. They're Not Going To Have Him Arrested Though...
Mon May 6, 2019, 10:19 AM
May 2019

I heard they could possibly fine him. If they fine him - where does the money come from for him to pay his fine? Does it come from his personal monies or de we as taxpayers wind up paying the fine?

treestar

(82,383 posts)
64. Disbarment would have teeth for him
Mon May 6, 2019, 10:39 AM
May 2019

Unless the AG does not have to be a lawyer. Even so, his personal pride would not allow that even if it does not affect his ability to make a living.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
67. There is no constitutional requirement for the AG to be a lawyer. Just appointed by POTUS.
Mon May 6, 2019, 10:41 AM
May 2019

I believe that our founding fathers assumed that the title would be explicit enough.

However, he would not have a career in law once out of office.

Botany

(70,504 posts)
29. Barr was brought into stop the Mueller investigation and to help cover up the biggest crime in ...
Mon May 6, 2019, 10:21 AM
May 2019

... American history. We must push do you want the rule of law or the rule of Trump?

Ponietz

(2,969 posts)
46. If 220 Democrats support the Contempt citation
Mon May 6, 2019, 10:29 AM
May 2019

it would be an important show of unity where it could not be reached, thus far, on impeachment.

DesertRat

(27,995 posts)
58. They will vote on it on Wednesday
Mon May 6, 2019, 10:35 AM
May 2019


@jimsciutto (CNN)
Breaking: House Judiciary Chairman schedules Wednesday vote to hold Attorney General William Barr in contempt of Congress.

Texin

(2,596 posts)
59. They can hold him in contempt until the cows come home, but he cannot be alllowed to remain at DOJ.
Mon May 6, 2019, 10:36 AM
May 2019

As long as he is held in contempt, he should be removed from any responsibility within that department, otherwise it will be as if nothing has changed. Status will be quo, so to speak. He will continue to do Komrad tRump's bidding.

nycbos

(6,034 posts)
60. I think Nader waited this long...
Mon May 6, 2019, 10:36 AM
May 2019

Last edited Mon May 6, 2019, 02:48 PM - Edit history (1)

... is he knows this is going to be a court fight. He wanted to show they gave him every opportunity to cooperate.

FBaggins

(26,737 posts)
65. 50+ posts and nobody has pointed out that the OP isn't correct?
Mon May 6, 2019, 10:40 AM
May 2019

All that we have so far is confirmation that Democrats on the committee will move for a contempt citation on Wednesday.

That is NOT the same thing as holding Barr in Contempt. That requires a vote of the full House after a pseudo trial. We do not know at this point that enough Democrats will support such a move for it to succeed.

Then, of course, all of the posts regarding their power to actually do anything to him are accurate.

CaptainTruth

(6,591 posts)
107. It sounds like you're describing inherent contempt as opposed to civil contempt.
Mon May 6, 2019, 11:43 AM
May 2019

Are there any clues that's the way they'll go?

FBaggins

(26,737 posts)
126. In order for "The House" to do anything - requires a vote of the full House
Mon May 6, 2019, 12:47 PM
May 2019

The Committee can vote to make a referral to the DOJ asking them to investigate the crime of contempt of Congress. But in order for "the House" to actually hold someone in contempt, or ask a court to enforce their subpoena would require the full House to vote.

The inherent contempt option (which I consider incredibly unlikely) would also likely require a trial before the full House.

CaptainTruth

(6,591 posts)
93. Inherent contempt or civil contempt?
Mon May 6, 2019, 11:15 AM
May 2019

Civil is probably better in this case as it can establish legal precedent.

Snake Plissken

(4,103 posts)
97. This is bullshit, why not do it right this minute? instead of playing reality TV shitshit with it
Mon May 6, 2019, 11:20 AM
May 2019

and waiting until "later in the week" for an excuse to do nothing again.

FBaggins

(26,737 posts)
101. Because they would like to actually win the issue... rather than just playing games
Mon May 6, 2019, 11:28 AM
May 2019

to make the base happy.

This is by no means a fight that they will definitely win. Congress does not have absolute authority to compel actions from the Executive branch. They need the courts to agree with them (and SCOTUS leans well to the right).

Every opportunity to negotiate/accommodate needs to be taken to make sure that it's clear that they made every attempt.

itcfish

(1,828 posts)
151. I've los all hope
Mon May 6, 2019, 02:27 PM
May 2019

Trump and the rightwingers have stacked the court. There will be no consequences to the crimes Trump and his minions have committed. My heart is breaking for our republic.

PoliticAverse

(26,366 posts)
170. The Latest: Justice Department proposes Nadler talks
Mon May 6, 2019, 03:40 PM
May 2019
The Justice Department is proposing a meeting to reach an “acceptable accommodation” with the House Judiciary Committee after the chairman scheduled a vote to hold the attorney general in contempt of Congress for not producing special counsel Robert Mueller’s full report.

Assistant Attorney General Stephen Boyd proposed the meeting for Wednesday, the same day as the contempt vote.

https://apnews.com/fc7094fc04b149d89e2cb3cbd9c70f35

Alea

(706 posts)
177. Why is Nadler demanding something that is against Federal law to turn over?
Mon May 6, 2019, 07:37 PM
May 2019

Am I missing something? They have a near completely unredacted copy to read but Nadler won't read it. The grand jury minutes are protected by Federal law that Congress themselves made. How can Nadler compel Barr to break Federal Law, and if Barr were to comply, would Nadler then say he broke Federal Law? It seems like Nadler is trying to force Barr to break the law.

What am I missing? I'm just trying to understand this. Not stirring trouble. I can't/don't keep up with the news like many here.

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
179. It's not against federal law.
Mon May 6, 2019, 11:12 PM
May 2019

They can be turned over pursuant to court order, which it's up to DOJ to request. It's usually been the custom for AGs or prosecutors to petition the court to allow their release. Of course, Barr doesn't play by rules or custom.

However, there's nothing stopping a House committee from bringing in grand jury witnesses and asking them what they said in the grand jury or question them de novo. But it's much easier if they have the grand jury transcripts to compare their sworn testimony.

Alea

(706 posts)
189. Thank you StarfishSaver for the reply
Tue May 7, 2019, 02:40 PM
May 2019

Seems like it will go to the Courts. OP didn't say if this is for Barr not showing up or for not turning over the unredacted report. I'm thinking it was for the latter. Or both maybe.

Finals and graduation prep have kept my eyes in the books and tv turned off. I'll catch up on all this if I make it through the next week I know I should keep up but I can't let trump stress cost me grades.

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
191. Definitely don't let Trump stress cost you grades
Tue May 7, 2019, 04:55 PM
May 2019

This, too will pass. You must, also.

Good luck with finals and congratulations on your graduation!

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