General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsBREAKING CNN - House WILL vote to hold Barr in Contempt of Congress!
Last edited Mon May 6, 2019, 11:23 AM - Edit history (1)
Shell_Seas
(3,333 posts)What will be the consequences?
MoonRiver
(36,926 posts)DownriverDem
(6,228 posts)They are doing it the correct way which is a huge message to voters.
PatrickforO
(14,573 posts)and the rest of the Dems.
Trump personifies the old adage, "if you give him an inch, he'll take a mile."
Now he's gone a mile too far.
titaniumsalute
(4,742 posts)MichMary
(1,714 posts)held in contempt in 2012. PBO claimed executive privilege.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Holder#Contempt_of_Congress
titaniumsalute
(4,742 posts)susanna
(5,231 posts)Interesting that the GOP really doesn't like it when Democrats push back and use the their own playbook on them.
Fascinating, really.
patphil
(6,176 posts)lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)backscatter712
(26,355 posts)Which makes it even better!
Though if you want to be serious, the Capitol Police is equipped like any municipal police department, and yes, they have holding cells.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)Hold him in the Capitol basement.
DownriverDem
(6,228 posts)The Sargent of Arms will be directed to go and get him.
SCVDem
(5,103 posts)NOT sargent (sic)!
INdemo
(6,994 posts)Does that count?
I would like to serve as a U S Marshal or an FBI agent for 1 day, just to be one of the Marshals to escort Barr from the Justice Dept in handcuffs
but wait there is such a long line ahead of me.
Flaleftist
(3,473 posts)What happens if his detail refuses to cooperate?
tritsofme
(17,377 posts)PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)ut oh
(895 posts)nt
PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)Here's another article with an extensive discussion of the issue from a different site:
https://sidebarsblog.com/contempt-of-congress/
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)No one in trump world will haul him away. And he may face small fine.
manor321
(3,344 posts)bitterross
(4,066 posts)In this case, I'm okay with 2 days. That gives it two more days on the news. It also allows them to judge public reaction to Congress finally holding someone accountable.
It seems like a way to test the waters for other things. Hopefully, a referral to DOJ for perjury is coming too.
rainy
(6,091 posts)about it and the Democrats?
CentralMass
(15,265 posts)forgotmylogin
(7,528 posts)If they held him in contempt and immediately dragged him away you lose the dramatic build up, and grant Repubs a chance to scream "Fascism! Leftwing Coup!" (Which would be patently hilarious...)
But I'm sure the point is they'd much rather have Barr comply than be forced to take steps to make him an immediate martyr to the redcaps. And it stretches the news cycle.
I'm wondering if that might be part of the delayed impeachment strategy on the down-low; if they start it too soon Presidtent Stollen has time to tamp it down and flush it out through the news-cycles. Better if they start it a couple of months before the election, especially if it goes nowhere because then McDonald faces de-throning on two fronts and if he's not re-elected, problem solved. If he is, impeachment proceeds and it doesn't look like it was strictly motivated by an unfortunate election win.
Chin music
(23,002 posts)Last edited Mon May 6, 2019, 03:47 PM - Edit history (1)
the party of action. The gop doesnt give two shits what they do to us, I couldnt care less what the gop will scream. As if they take Dems into consideration anytime they make a big move. NOpe.
Enough is enough. By wednesday Im sure the gop will have found a way to dodge the impact or make it not happen at all. Thats why we dont need to talk to to death. JUST DO YOUR JOBS. We'll clean up the mess afterwards. When we telegraph whatever we are going to do, it shoots us in the foot. Nadler said today was the day...EVERY time we draw a line, then let them cross it, it hurts all of us.
DO.. then worry about what 30% of America thinks. That's why they are OUR party, and the gop theirs. It's not our job to make the gop happy. It IS our job to promote what 2/3rds PLUS of America as Democrats care about though. The gop should be an afterthought, in everything. They ENJOY when Liberals hurt. Why are we even cring?
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)The process is frustrating, all the waiting, but I'll have to agree with their decisions so far. Our options are limited.
Maru Kitteh
(28,340 posts)Frustrating, as you say, but true.
yaesu
(8,020 posts)look better for us when it gets to the Supreme court which I'm sure it will.
Hotler
(11,421 posts)yaesu
(8,020 posts)excuses to back Barr if & when its decided there.
Chin music
(23,002 posts)Trying to be perfect to HOPEFULLY encourge the other side to see things our way, doesnt work. They would suffocate every one of us if given a chance. MOVEMENT towards the end is what the public wants, NOT how we can kowtow to repubs anymore. IMHO.
ecstatic
(32,703 posts)Stop with the trial balloons and poll testing. They have the power to set the narrative and won't. It's sickening at this point. Lead! Lock the fuckers up!
Texin
(2,596 posts)In any contempt declaration I've ever seen or heard of, there is always a punitive monetary penalty and some jail time. I don't know if the Congress can assess any monetary fines or such, but what do they plan to do with His Heftiness? There IS no prison cell within the Capitol complex. The old "prison" jail cell was located in the Supreme Court building and not used after the '30s. I think it's all storage now. If they have him arrested, which I wonder if they'll actually go that route, where will the put him? I would recommend the Motel 6. That's about as good as he warrants, but the rooms aren't very spacious, and he is the size of a water buffalo.
So, they hold him in contempt, what next? They can't very well just let him continue to go to his day job at the DOJ, no?
dumbcat
(2,120 posts)None, to my knowledge. It will likely be the same for Barr.
Some history and answers to your questions here:
https://www.wired.com/2012/06/holder/
malaise
(268,997 posts)Chin music
(23,002 posts)If they arent going to be serious and start stacking folks up, then admit it and lets stop this roller coaster of threats and weak follow through. Come on. Nadler said today was the day. After a while, folks stop believing and when you threaten, they go golfing. IMHO.
gordianot
(15,238 posts)MoonRiver
(36,926 posts)Can you link?
gordianot
(15,238 posts)Co equal branches of government when will the funding knife come out in the House?
NewJeffCT
(56,828 posts)Remind me again?
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)I think the GOP knew that they were just grasping at straws.
Don't think that's going to happen this time.
You're welcome.
NewJeffCT
(56,828 posts)I don't think it's nearly as independent now as it was just a year or two ago.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)tritsofme
(17,377 posts)PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)tritsofme
(17,377 posts)If it was as foolproof and easy a solution as many here suggest, why do you suppose House Republicans never tried it against Clinton or Obama officials? Certainly not timidity? These are also not criminal proceedings.
hughee99
(16,113 posts)Nt
qazplm135
(7,447 posts)What should be their response if not contempt?
Impeachment has the same end result so I assume that's not your answer either.
NewJeffCT
(56,828 posts)that Democrats would not have to jump through hoops to get documents and records
qazplm135
(7,447 posts)How will impeachment magically make the executive branch forthcoming?
uponit7771
(90,336 posts)... gets more evidence like a grand jury.
NewJeffCT
(56,828 posts)goes immediately to the courts and then precedent means that they'll be ordered to turn over documents.
qazplm135
(7,447 posts)then what?
uponit7771
(90,336 posts)... Don and the Kremlin Clan
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Please be specific.
uponit7771
(90,336 posts)... Don't move for conviction or removal but allow America to consistently hear how Russia helped Benedict Donald in 2016 and is going to help him again in 2020.
Takes senate out of the picture, for those concerned non senate removal will be good for Red Don.
On the other hand no time in history has impeachment process been a positive for the party of the impeached.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)that will achieve an outcome they can't get otherwise?
uponit7771
(90,336 posts)StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)I've asked that question several times and never can seem to get a response.
Which, alone, says a lot.
uponit7771
(90,336 posts)... impeachment PROCEEDINGS that they can't get outside of those proceedings.
1. timely access to GJ docs and witness's; Barr said they get unredacted report under impeachment
2. Curbed Pardon abilities of president to even a small degree
3. GJ discovery ability outside of executive branch constraints, none of the "suing" to stop gathering of information under EP
The USSC has already said when congress is under investigative process like impeachment then they become like a grand jury ... the impeachment mangers are
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)What do do mean by "timely access"? Who would enforce it and how. Do you really believe that Barr would turn over Grand Jury material to an impeachment panel just because he said he would?
2. Curbed Pardon abilities of president to even a small degree
Impeachment doesn't curb a president's ability to pardon federal crimes in any way. The Constitution simply excludes impeachment from the range of things a president can pardon. But the fact that a president is in the process of being impeached or has been impeached has absolutely effect on his pardon power.
3. GJ discovery ability outside of executive branch constraints, none of the "suing" to stop gathering of information under EP
An impeachment inquiry does not mean the panel can automatically get anything. Grand jury material can be obtained without an impeachment, as was done during Watergate. And executive privilege is irrelevant to the grand jury materials since, if it was testified to or revealed in the GJ, executive privilege won't apply. If executive privilege was invoked in the Grand Jury, that material never was included.
The USSC has already said when congress is under investigative process like impeachment then they become like a grand jury ... the impeachment mangers are
You didn't complete this sentence. Please explain what the Supreme Court has ruled regarding impeachment managers.
As I've said, impeachment doesn't confer some magical powers on the House, make it any more likely that the administration will cooperate, or ensure Congress can obtain testimony or documents without going to court and fighting over it, just as they would have to do in any other proceeding.
uponit7771
(90,336 posts)StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)that, at this point in time, impeachment confers nothing outside of what they can do through the oversight process and, in fact, could actually be less effective if launched right now.
While many of us are already convinced that we have more than enough to impeach, most of the country isn't there yet. Moreover, if impeachment started now, it would essentially "freeze" most of what we have in place and make it very difficult to gather any additional evidence that would sway the public and actually lead to potentially gathering enough votes to remove him. Impeachment inquiries are not investigatory processes that dig out new evidence. The last two impeachment proceedings worked with evidence that had been gathered by other entities and, for the most part, simply considered whether that evidence was sufficient to support impeachment.
Here, people are pushing for impeachment so that Congress can root out and gather evidence. And that's just what Congress is doing. The difference is that people seem to think that an impeachment inquiry makes it easier to gather find that evidence and that it confers upon the Judiciary Committee - which would be the entity responsible - to do so. But that's not the case. Not only do the other pertinent committees have just as much authority - if not moreso - to gather any evidence that the Judiciary Committee could do in an impeachment inquiry, they also have the resources, staff and expertise to do what the Judiciary Committee can't do alone. In fact, some Committees have the exclusive power to do certain things that other committees can't - for example, Ways and Means has the exclusive power to obtain tax returns. The Judiciary Committee has no such power (and neither does any other committee).
So, my position is that, while impeachment is warranted, it has to be done correctly and with the right timing. And now is not the time to launch a formal impeachment inquiry. Instead Congress must conduct the investigations and hearings that would be done as part of an impeachment inquiry AND go far beyond that in order to pull together additional evidence that will be needed to provide a solid foundation for impeachment, which doesn't exist yet, regardless how convinced you and I may be that this man must be impeached.
If impeachment is started right now, pretty much all the Judiciary Committee will have to work with is the Mueller Report (and not even all of that) and a lot of bits and pieces and suspicions and accusations that the public already knows about but haven't been enough to convince them that Trump must go. They can try to get additional information - the unredacted report, the grand jury material, the tax returns, etc. - but the administration will stonewall them exactly as they are now. The fact that these are being fought over in an impeachment process will have no effect on the likelihood that the Trump people will turn them over or whether a court will rule more quickly or in the House's favor. The result will be the same whether this is fought out in an impeachment inquiry or through the other committees.
Nothing is lost by continuing the investigations and hearings and putting the information out every single day to the American public. More evidence can be gathered, the public can be more easily convinced this way than if they're learning about it as part of an impeachment, which they'll more likely see as a craven political fight instead of a meaningful fight to save the country.
This is not a binary choice: impeachment or nothing. Continuing robust investigations doesn't take impeachment off the table. They just make it more likely that impeachment will succeed and that Trump is held accountable for many more of his crimes than if Congress allows themselves to be goaded into jumping the gun and starting proceedings before all of the ducks are in a row.
You and others may differ with my view, but my position is well-thought out and based on years of relevant legal and political experience. And, more important, the people in Congress who are strategizing this very complex situation know what they're doing and shouldn't be attacked and called cowards or clueless because they're not taking the approach that some people want them to take - especially since most of the people attacking them are on the outside looking in and don't have the experience or knowledge to fully understand all of the considerations that must be dealt with in this matter.
I hope this helps you better understand my position on this.
uponit7771
(90,336 posts)... know so far because that's what has happened in the past where as impeachment would shorten some of those process's because, like in Nixon or Clinton, the USSC would address disagreements faster.
Or at least inherent contempt and holding Barr at gunpoint might ...
We don't know any other information other than what we're told and read and it's my understanding investigations don't stop when impeachment process is started ... investigations are consolidated which sounds like that might be a bad thing.
Sounds like there needs to be a pro con thread ... people need to be informed.
Right now it looks like dem leadership has been caught off guard, on this issue the base and leadership are pointing a different direct depending on what day it is.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Nixon was brought to enforce a subpoena issued by the special prosecutor in a criminal case in U.S. District Court. Clinton was brought as part of a civil case long before impeachment was even being considered.
A court can always expedite a case if it determines it's in the country's best interest. They can do that whether or not an impeachment is pending.
The Democratic leadership hasn't been caught off guard. The problem is they're dealing with a unprecedented situation of a president with no morals or shame being protected by a U.S. Attorney General who also possesses neither attribute. They have to walk some very fine lines.
I'm glad they're proceeding as they are. We only have one shot to get this right. And if they jump the gun on impeachment, impeach him in the next couple of months, then he's acquitted by the Senate, we'll be done. Congress will have spoken, we won't be able to do more investigations, and the country will move on. And we'll have little opportunity to hold this criminal accountable next year. In fact, the impeachment will be his badge of honor and probably his campaign platform.
I say we need to keep digging and putting it out there, dig some more and put it out there. The country needs to see the depth of depravity we're dealing with. And, while it seems counter-intuitive, I fear that impeachment at this stage will prevent that from happening.
uponit7771
(90,336 posts)... of the impeached has never fared well in elections post impeachment process of any kind in the history of the US throughout multiple generations and millenniums.
Because Red Don is LITERALLY not a sane person impeachment will be his badge of honor no matter what, he'll make up a reality if it doesn't exist.
There is no real well grounded POLITICAL reasons to not proceed with impeachment, none.
If it's a matter of process and timing we should know ... I'm thinknig your previous post could lead to that
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)If impeachment is done now, based mostly on the Mueller report and wraps up within months - which will happen since people won't tolerate an open-ended impeachment inquiry they'll view as a fishing expedition - that one bite of the apple will likely prove not to be enough. And by next November, it will be just another blip on the disastrous Trump radar - so far in the past and overshadowed by so many new scandals (without access to impeachment), that it just won't have much impact any more.
uponit7771
(90,336 posts)... Red Don is stonewalling everything.
I do agree about timing, if its a matter of waiting to the right time democrats should string this out and along ... let everyone see the evidence that Red Don worked with the Russians during the time they were attacking America and his lawyer says there's nothing wrong with taking information from Russia going forward.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)with little additional evidence developed prior to the opening of the inquiry other than the Mueller Report. He won't cooperate but will just dare them to impeach him with what they have. And when they do, the Senate will quickly acquit. If you think he was obnoxious after Barr's letter about the Mueller report, imagine him after a Democratic House impeaches him on a straight party line vote and the Senate "exonerates" him. And the Dems won't be able to keep investigating him after that because, after all, they could have done that before impeaching him but chose not to do it.
uponit7771
(90,336 posts)... conviction or vote of removal.
Also, Red Don is going to wail and cry no matter what we do... if he doesn't have something factual to cry about then he'll make something up and his sycophants will believe him hook line.
I have no doubt next by next week there will be a tweet about "mean democrats" or something close ... I don't see Red Don's lack of cleaving to reality a good reason not to proceed with impeachment or impeachment proceedings.
Timing is an issue, I'm thinking this should be outlined by leadership
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)But I don't think it's wise for the Dem leaders to show their hands by laying out a roadmap right now. That's another reason to continue proceeding with the various investigations - that is solid, substantive activity that will produce evidence that can be used for impeachment. It's a good use of time and resources as they build a public case and map out the strategy for impeachment.
uponit7771
(90,336 posts)StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Thank you.
gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)I hope there are contingency plans.
uponit7771
(90,336 posts)... SOL so the bastards can go to jail once America has beat Team Trump Russia
NewJeffCT
(56,828 posts)Not the little used House jail.
qazplm135
(7,447 posts)And the courts will be appealed.
And who's been stacking the courts with nutjobs?
This is not as easy as folks make it seem.
The only real way to beat Trump is via an election, not via separation of powers.
gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)This could have a very ugly ending.
gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)mixed up with a foreign power trying to subvert democracy. This is different.
yuiyoshida
(41,831 posts)vlyons
(10,252 posts)without consequences, jail time, it's meaningless. Republicans have no shame and could not care less what Dems call them.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)vlyons
(10,252 posts)until he agrees to testify for starters.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)They'll put video that perp walk in every campaign ad for 2020, to "prove" that the Democrats are trying to stage a coup, and they will point out that they didn't have Eric Holder arrested...
Now, if they can get him disbarred, that might do more actual damage.
lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)just give the GOP ammunition?
lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)It will take a lot to get some people off their duffs.
The GOP will continue to have their 38% base of Despicables. Screw 'em.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)And it would energize Trump's base through the roof.
All congressional seats will be up for reelection in 2020. Do you want them taking back the House?
lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)So voters have to overcome more and need to be more motivated.
And because I don't want the Russiapublicans to take back the House, our House must act and mobilize our base.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)is shared by the majority of Democrats - that they won't be "energized" enough to vote in 2020 unless there is a theatrical perp walk?
That's a fantasy that it would happen, BTW.
So, if you think that voters not coming out is "suppression" do you think that the false anti-Hillary propaganda spread on Lefty FB pages and twitter was also "voter suppression?"
calimary
(81,262 posts)What I worry about is a discouragement factor that might start seeping into the picture on the Democratic side, if our reps go into yet another gunfight armed with knives and feather dusters.
I worry about that A LOT. We worked our asses off for two years after January 2017 to flip the House of Reps. We worked like hell to oust 40 bad guys and take power back in one chamber on Capitol Hill. AND at the state level too. We worked nonstop to put the Democrats back in power in some way so all of Washington DC would NOT continue to be a simpering, cowardly spineless rubber stamp to this illegitimate monster in OUR White House. And we rightly expect RESULTS for all that work. We quite properly expect a return on that investment. What the hell did we work and struggle and slave and give our all on every possible front for?
Dammit, I want to see action on this! Decisive and goddamn serious action! I didnt work that hard so I could get some goddamn strongly-worded letters. You know what trump and Barr and others of their ilk do with those strongly-worded letters? They take them to the proverbial bathroom and wipe their asses with em.
Im discouraged already yet determined to vote whenever I get the chance. But I worry that other Dems will get discouraged by a mealy-mouthed Democratic response and, when the next time to vote arrives, will throw up their hands and say why the hell should I even bother?
THATS what I worry about.
lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)This is not just a game; this is about the survival of the American Republic. Even actions doomed to failure have an energizing effect; they demonstrate that the people we have elected understand the stakes, and that they will fight alongside us.
saidsimplesimon
(7,888 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)just give up.
Hopefully we don't have any of those on DU; now is not the time for half-measures.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)No suprise.
lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)I'm pleased we are such a literate bunch.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)So, you're going to pass.
lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)Sorry.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)"mealy mouthed?"
lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)I was away for a couple of hours.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Maybe you missed this... You don't get to accuse someone of contempt before the deadline you give them.
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/05/06/democrats-prepare-to-hold-william-barr-in-contempt-1302982
gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)is going to do. When was the last time the GOP was afraid of anything?
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)against us? Or am I confusing you with someone else? If so I apologize. Fatigue has set in.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)I also think that impeaching Barr after they hold him in contempt for missing today's headline would be a great next step.
gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)charlyvi
(6,537 posts)Whatever we do to them will serve to fuel their right wing base, donor money machine, and fence sitting independents. Knowing this, whatever Dems do MUST be seen as beyond politics and, therefore, legitimate. It's a tough, tough tightrope to walk and I don't envy any one of our Dems, especially Pelosi. As the old saying goes, when you come at the king, you better not miss. Trying and missing badly will give us Trump* for another term and, perhaps, an end to our Republic.
RandySF
(58,807 posts)backscatter712
(26,355 posts)If the House so orders it, they can go get him. It's happened before, but not in close to a century.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Please be specific.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)The Sergeant at Arms of the House of Representatives is a sworn law enforcement officer, under the direct authority of the House, and he's one of the heads of the Capitol Police.
If he skips town, the next step is putting a warrant out, and they can have Federal Marshalls go get him.
PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)It has the power to arrest, try, and jail.
If you want a complete education on this issue, see:
Congresss Contempt Power and the Enforcement of Congressional Subpoenas: Law, History, Practice, and Procedure
Congressional Research Service, 2017.
https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL34097.pdf
treestar
(82,383 posts)That is the penalty when it is contempt of court. Don't know about Congress.
gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)A leak of some sort maybe?
Mr.Bill
(24,288 posts)That would be okay with me. I'm sure it will not happen, though.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)I suggest we jail the fucker.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)We have to worry about energizing the other 2/3 of the electorate.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)It sound more like you personally want to see some vengance exacted in a specific way, and will upset with Democratic leaders if you aren't given that.
Rationalizing that personal wish as something that Democrats en masse "need" to be "energized" doesn't mean that's actually the case.
n/t
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)It's a nice fantasy. I'd like to see it happen too. But it won't happen. Our leaders also live in the real world and they understand how things like this would play out if they tried.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Mr.Bill
(24,288 posts)is that it could add to the list of things to justify impeachment.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)That's a good start. I'm interested in seeing him disbarred and I'd like to learn more about the possibility of impeaching Barr. Would it work? Do we have the votes for it? Would there be unintended consequences? I'm also interested in finding out more about what can be done to him as a private citizen... AFTER he's no longer AG. (Something like what happened to John Mitchell, Nixon's AG.)
Mr.Bill
(24,288 posts)at140
(6,110 posts)without threat of jail time, it carries no water.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Our leaders aren't the rubes that the fringe elements are portraying them as. They're smarter than they're being given credit for. They know the score. They're experienced. They know how things work. I trust their judgement. They don't exist to give me (or anyone) emotional satisfaction of revenge and settling scores. They understand how to anticipate and expect AND AVOID the unintended consequences of acting in haste, in anger, with overwrought emotion, with vengeance... and thank goodness for that.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)It looks like they are creating the case that the adminstration was given every opportunity to comply, and were told of the consequences.
It's as though any response they make that doesn't involve a lot of testosterone is "so what?" for so many on DU.
I'm glad we have smart people in charge who aren't worried about throwing red meat out, but getting the job done and done right.
yaesu
(8,020 posts)putting on record that an AG was charged with contempt.
DeminPennswoods
(15,286 posts)That's probably the more effective consequence. Getting hit with a few thousand dollars a day in fines adds up.
There is also the appropriations process where money can be taken from DoJ's budget or restricted as to what money can be spent on.
samnsara
(17,622 posts)forgotmylogin
(7,528 posts)CTyankee
(63,912 posts)The jig will be up someday!
certainot
(9,090 posts)inwiththenew
(972 posts)Hopefully the House has a more solid case.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Obama was a constitutional law professor, and likely knew the GOP had no case.
This is very different.
FBaggins
(26,737 posts)The two scenarios are quite similar. In both cases, Congress subpoenaed document and the AG refused to provide them.
Yes, in Holder's case, the IG eventually cleared him of wrongdoing. However, the courts did require him to turn over virtually everything that was being withheld. This means that your commentary re: Obama's constitutional expertise was off-base. The GOP did "have a case" (since they eventually won that case).
What is notable is that even when Congress "had a case" to force the production of documents, the AG was not found to be in criminal contempt (both by the court and the IG) because it wasn't an unreasonable position to take. AND it took years before the process was complete and documents were produced.
Drawing the parallel to the current scenario, it means that Congress can eventually get most of the documents it's pushing for, but it won't be soon and threats to the AG are likely toothless.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)FBaggins
(26,737 posts)Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)Pepsidog
(6,254 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)to "prove" that Democrats are attempting a coup.
Pepsidog
(6,254 posts)infullview
(981 posts)global1
(25,247 posts)I heard they could possibly fine him. If they fine him - where does the money come from for him to pay his fine? Does it come from his personal monies or de we as taxpayers wind up paying the fine?
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)Unless the AG does not have to be a lawyer. Even so, his personal pride would not allow that even if it does not affect his ability to make a living.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)I believe that our founding fathers assumed that the title would be explicit enough.
However, he would not have a career in law once out of office.
samnsara
(17,622 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)Vladimir Putin.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Botany
(70,504 posts)... American history. We must push do you want the rule of law or the rule of Trump?
samnsara
(17,622 posts)still_one
(92,190 posts)Ponietz
(2,969 posts)it would be an important show of unity where it could not be reached, thus far, on impeachment.
klook
(12,154 posts)Javaman
(62,530 posts)DesertRat
(27,995 posts)Link to tweet
@jimsciutto (CNN)
Duppers
(28,120 posts)Texin
(2,596 posts)As long as he is held in contempt, he should be removed from any responsibility within that department, otherwise it will be as if nothing has changed. Status will be quo, so to speak. He will continue to do Komrad tRump's bidding.
nycbos
(6,034 posts)Last edited Mon May 6, 2019, 02:48 PM - Edit history (1)
... is he knows this is going to be a court fight. He wanted to show they gave him every opportunity to cooperate.
CaptainTruth
(6,591 posts)FBaggins
(26,737 posts)All that we have so far is confirmation that Democrats on the committee will move for a contempt citation on Wednesday.
That is NOT the same thing as holding Barr in Contempt. That requires a vote of the full House after a pseudo trial. We do not know at this point that enough Democrats will support such a move for it to succeed.
Then, of course, all of the posts regarding their power to actually do anything to him are accurate.
MoonRiver
(36,926 posts)CaptainTruth
(6,591 posts)Are there any clues that's the way they'll go?
FBaggins
(26,737 posts)The Committee can vote to make a referral to the DOJ asking them to investigate the crime of contempt of Congress. But in order for "the House" to actually hold someone in contempt, or ask a court to enforce their subpoena would require the full House to vote.
The inherent contempt option (which I consider incredibly unlikely) would also likely require a trial before the full House.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,691 posts)LibFarmer
(772 posts)some good news. That jerk should be impeached.
CaptainTruth
(6,591 posts)Civil is probably better in this case as it can establish legal precedent.
Snake Plissken
(4,103 posts)and waiting until "later in the week" for an excuse to do nothing again.
FBaggins
(26,737 posts)to make the base happy.
This is by no means a fight that they will definitely win. Congress does not have absolute authority to compel actions from the Executive branch. They need the courts to agree with them (and SCOTUS leans well to the right).
Every opportunity to negotiate/accommodate needs to be taken to make sure that it's clear that they made every attempt.
spanone
(135,831 posts)MoonRiver
(36,926 posts)And right now the jury's out on that.
rocktivity
(44,576 posts)with their GOP majority control?
rocktivity
W T F
(1,147 posts)gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)Are they really prepared to arrest him? Because Barr doesn't give a shit.
itcfish
(1,828 posts)Trump and the rightwingers have stacked the court. There will be no consequences to the crimes Trump and his minions have committed. My heart is breaking for our republic.
MadDAsHell
(2,067 posts)PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)Assistant Attorney General Stephen Boyd proposed the meeting for Wednesday, the same day as the contempt vote.
https://apnews.com/fc7094fc04b149d89e2cb3cbd9c70f35
SunSeeker
(51,554 posts)johannsyah
(58 posts)can't wait for the outcome.
BlueJac
(7,838 posts)we need a win or two!
Alea
(706 posts)Am I missing something? They have a near completely unredacted copy to read but Nadler won't read it. The grand jury minutes are protected by Federal law that Congress themselves made. How can Nadler compel Barr to break Federal Law, and if Barr were to comply, would Nadler then say he broke Federal Law? It seems like Nadler is trying to force Barr to break the law.
What am I missing? I'm just trying to understand this. Not stirring trouble. I can't/don't keep up with the news like many here.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)They can be turned over pursuant to court order, which it's up to DOJ to request. It's usually been the custom for AGs or prosecutors to petition the court to allow their release. Of course, Barr doesn't play by rules or custom.
However, there's nothing stopping a House committee from bringing in grand jury witnesses and asking them what they said in the grand jury or question them de novo. But it's much easier if they have the grand jury transcripts to compare their sworn testimony.
Alea
(706 posts)Seems like it will go to the Courts. OP didn't say if this is for Barr not showing up or for not turning over the unredacted report. I'm thinking it was for the latter. Or both maybe.
Finals and graduation prep have kept my eyes in the books and tv turned off. I'll catch up on all this if I make it through the next week I know I should keep up but I can't let trump stress cost me grades.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)This, too will pass. You must, also.
Good luck with finals and congratulations on your graduation!
ecstatic
(32,703 posts)If not, then who cares?